Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Beat!]

There's room for weak uairs -> tipper at very high percents, but otherwise they should be tipped. The weak uair -> grab you're doing takes a bit of timing (or good DI) for the spacie to get out of, but it's not as guaranteed as a well timed sh uair -> regrab.

At higher %s I can't quite get the really low Uair -> tipper, so I usually opt for uthrow-> utilt -> uair -> Fsmash, which doesn't outright kill because I missed the tipper, but it puts them in an easy edgeguard situation.

Yeah, the timing for this is pretty tight, and on top of that you may need to adjust your spacing after the uair.

Going for other stuff instead is fine, but not quite as optimal.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I noticed 4 moves that Marth can use that I found to be underused and fun to use.

Shieldbraker - I woulds like to start using this more to try to break my opponent's shield, or at least put the fear in them that they don't want their shield broken.

Upsmash - This move seems ot really throw people off, plus getting this tipped is super satisfying.

Downsmash - It comes out pretty fast and I think it opens up for some combos, it's just got a lot of ending lag.

Side-b combos - Well, sometimes they work. It feels like a nice mix up.

 

[Beat!]

Shield breaker is a good (in my opinion underrated) edgeguarding move. Aside from standing by the ledge and using it against spacies' up-B, you can also jump out while charging it and effectively create a vertical off-stage wall that's extremely hard to get around.
It's also a half-decent mix-up in the neutral game if you've already worn down their shield a decent amount, but nothing amazing.

Upsmash is pretty bad. Like, there are situations where it has some niche value (finishing a combo with a tipper upsmash, for example), but for the most part it's just inferior to other options.

Downsmash is severely underrated for tech chasing. Time it correctly and it covers tech in place, no tech and tech towards you. Space it correctly and at least one of those three options will be covered by the tipper hitbox.
There's also this trick (I think it was Tai who shared it originally) where if you're recovering against Sheik and she thinks you're gonna die and roll up, but you barely make it up on-stage with an up-B, you can dsmash immediately and it will hit her with the tipper hitbox.

Side-B is basically never bad as long as your opponent isn't grounded (CC is annoying). Side-B -> uptilt/fsmash is a pretty cool finisher against floaties (Peach in particular)

 

[Bones0]

I played Ether yesterday and he was using side-B really well to get me in my shield and then punish by grabbing or attacking my OoS option.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, I forgot about spacing it on shield. Not amazing, but a decent mix-up.

 

[Xyzz]

My main use of up smash is if I flub an uptilt input, haha :D

But combo'ing into tipped up smash kills is definitely damn satisfying for some reason, although the situation somehow rarely comes up

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Shield breaker is a good (in my opinion underrated) edgeguarding move. Aside from standing by the ledge and using it against spacies' up-B, you can also jump out while charging it and effectively create a vertical off-stage wall that's extremely hard to get around.
It's also a half-decent mix-up in the neutral game if you've already worn down their shield a decent amount, but nothing amazing.

Upsmash is pretty bad. Like, there are situations where it has some niche value (finishing a combo with a tipper upsmash, for example), but for the most part it's just inferior to other options.

Downsmash is severely underrated for tech chasing. Time it correctly and it covers tech in place, no tech and tech towards you. Space it correctly and at least one of those three options will be covered by the tipper hitbox.
There's also this trick (I think it was Tai who shared it originally) where if you're recovering against Sheik and she thinks you're gonna die and roll up, but you barely make it up on-stage with an up-B, you can dsmash immediately and it will hit her with the tipper hitbox.

Side-B is basically never bad as long as your opponent isn't grounded (CC is annoying). Side-B -> uptilt/fsmash is a pretty cool finisher against floaties (Peach in particular)

Awesome. I definitely will try to use Shieldbraker more often. It comes out pretty fast as well (5 frames).

I never thought to use down smash to cover teching options, I'll try doing that more.

Side-b is interesting because it can put your opponent into the air. I've done it on Fox a few times and got all the way through to the fourth hit that connected.

My main use of up smash is if I flub an uptilt input, haha :D

But combo'ing into tipped up smash kills is definitely damn satisfying for some reason, although the situation somehow rarely comes up

It's cause the knockback is so high and Marth also goes into that Luke Skywalker pose haha

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bones: was talking about the Uair lol

Armada: Never doubted, just surprised is all. I'll take the consideration to mind for sure. Thanks to you and Beat for posting.

 

[Divinokage]

Bones: was talking about the Uair lol

Armada: Never doubted, just surprised is all. I'll take the consideration to mind for sure. Thanks to you and Beat for posting.

I tested the thing you talk about the top platforms, i can kinda see what you mean where you do not need to play against a Marth that is trying to bait you with a DD but force him to make a move first. You can also use the other platforms to get different angles as well, it's pretty cool. Though normally I always thought being on top of Marth is bad, but with platforms you can do good baits.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Being directly above Marth is bad. Being at an angle is fine. Him putting you above him is the actual thing to not like though lol.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya it's those angles I'm working on. =P

 

[Armada]

Bones: was talking about the Uair lol

Armada: Never doubted, just surprised is all. I'll take the consideration to mind for sure. Thanks to you and Beat for posting.

I never thought a player of your skill level would doubt it unless you had tried it tons of times and still not figure it out

But yeah no problem dude =)

 

[knightpraetor]

in some friendlies today i tried to delay my upairs bu the foxes kept jumping out. knowing that you can delay the upair and knowing how much to delay it are two different things. It's also hard to practice marth when i find peach more satisfying lately

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Being above marth is bad anyway. If doing it right, then a fox jumping out means nothing. So long as you get to the ground and cover their options after that 2nd jump are you still good.

Having no jump is awesome. It means Marth can get more aggressive in edgeguarding without having to worry about the stupid situation of FH up to Fox and fox jumps over you and gets down before you.

 

[MT_]

I honestly think all you need is dash away PS. It keeps you moving and harder to hit. As long as I mix up what I do right after I should be good. Which I know I didn't in this set really but I'm saying for the future I think I'll be just fine with dash away PS.

Needing to dash away to get PS heavily restricts the spacings at which you can use PS. The PS's I see you do often do nothing other than momentarily interrupt Falco's rhythm, which is not necessarily bad, but because our good friend Tirno is so accustomed to getting hit by PS lasers (sorry) if you don't capitalize immediately then it's often for naught. I think a big reason why you aren't able to capitalize off of PS lasers as much is BECAUSE you dash away to do them. You're too far away to wavedash->grab after PS (thought I think you're close enough to do wavedash->fsmash, but I wouldn't recommend spamming that as Falco's first reaction to getting hit by a PS laser and seeing a Marth wavedash in at that distance is to shield) which makes it so that your PS lasers aren't as threatening as they can be. I think they still help but as Beat is saying you can get more off of them; and I think something that makes it difficult for you is that you rely on dash away to PS which makes it difficult for you to choose your spacing.

Just learn to standing PS already scrub.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Downsmash is severely underrated for tech chasing. Time it correctly and it covers tech in place, no tech and tech towards you. Space it correctly and at least one of those three options will be covered by the tipper hitbox.
There's also this trick (I think it was Tai who shared it originally) where if you're recovering against Sheik and she thinks you're gonna die and roll up, but you barely make it up on-stage with an up-B, you can dsmash immediately and it will hit her with the tipper hitbox.

yeah. it also works on peach. it only works if they do the >100% roll, though.
it's also failed on me a few times, but those are pretty rare
granted, this situation itself isn't *that* common anyway LOLL

i don't think i'd call marth's d-smash a great move, but it's really great whenever it works
e.g. tipper d-smash is strong as **** (barely weaker than fox's usmash, but it's hard to space). sometimes you can eyeball the d-smash and get hilarious tippers to kill off the top. trying to learn to eyeball the d-smash tipper spacing is something that i sorta recommend trying to do in friendlies because it's hilarious to land in tourney

sometimes f-throw -> WD -> d-smash works, but i haven't tried it in a VERY LONG TIME, so i don't know if it still works. something i do remember though is that d-smash will hit in some situations where f-smash won't because d-smash is marth's second fastest move in terms of startup, plus it starts low, as opposed to his fsmash which starts high

also sometimes i like using marth's dsmash at super high percents when i just need to hit the opponent with any move that isn't obscenely weak and d-smash just happens to be what i need (i.e. this usually means that i ****ed something up really bad before i got into the situation or i did a douchebaggy crouch-cancel)

 

[Tee ay eye]

Being directly above Marth is bad. Being at an angle is fine. Him putting you above him is the actual thing to not like though lol.

question, could you just expand on this a little bit more? i mean, obviously the statement is simple enough and makes perfect sense, but i would love to hear a slightly more detailed explanation of how each of those 2 situations get played out

i.e.
what do you like to do in those situations, and what can the opponent do in response?

 

[MasterShake]

Everytime I cover tech options with dsmash: "I didn't know that worked"

Weird situation - if a fast faller tech rolls behind you and you get the second dsmash hit at low %, they'll pop up and tech again. If they tech in place you can't punish. BUT, if they tech roll away you can run and JC grab in time. And usually that's what they'll do since they think they can "get away" from Marth's laggy lagster self.

 

[BTmoney]

just to play devil's advocate if dsmash isn't going to kill shouldn't you just grab or fsmash

 

[MasterShake]

Well.

I guess.

I don't mean to tout it as the better option AT ALL. It's not that good and barely gives you an advantage.

But if you're lazy like me and don't want to guess on tech chases near the edge it's convenient. Oh and I would never ever in a zillion years use it center stage where it would get me reamed in the poop-hole.

 

[AustinRC]

Needing to dash away to get PS heavily restricts the spacings at which you can use PS. The PS's I see you do often do nothing other than momentarily interrupt Falco's rhythm, which is not necessarily bad, but because our good friend Tirno is so accustomed to getting hit by PS lasers (sorry) if you don't capitalize immediately then it's often for naught. I think a big reason why you aren't able to capitalize off of PS lasers as much is BECAUSE you dash away to do them. You're too far away to wavedash->grab after PS (thought I think you're close enough to do wavedash->fsmash, but I wouldn't recommend spamming that as Falco's first reaction to getting hit by a PS laser and seeing a Marth wavedash in at that distance is to shield) which makes it so that your PS lasers aren't as threatening as they can be. I think they still help but as Beat is saying you can get more off of them; and I think something that makes it difficult for you is that you rely on dash away to PS which makes it difficult for you to choose your spacing.

Just learn to standing PS already scrub.

Yeah I will start playing around with it here soon. Like I said though my reasoning for saying that's all I'd need is due to a few different set ups I'm trying to work on after the PS. I still need to thoroughly test it though. But I guess ill learn standing PS.

 

[Tee ay eye]

just to play devil's advocate if dsmash isn't going to kill shouldn't you just grab or fsmash

dsmash (comes out on frame 5/6 - first active hitbox is frame 5, fully extended hitbox in front is frame 6)
grab (frame 7), probably yes
fsmash (frame 10 for first active frame), not necessarily

 

[MT_]

yeah. it also works on peach. it only works if they do the >100% roll, though.
it's also failed on me a few times, but those are pretty rare
granted, this situation itself isn't *that* common anyway LOLL

I think the times it fails is probably related to whether or not you do an angled (is this the proper term?) up-B or not. So if you just do one straight up then it tips and if you do one into the stage then it won't. Maybe. Idk.

 

[Kadano]

sometimes f-throw -> WD -> d-smash works, but i haven't tried it in a VERY LONG TIME, so i don't know if it still works. something i do remember though is that d-smash will hit in some situations where f-smash won't because d-smash is marth's second fastest move in terms of startup

It works against Jigglypuff at quite many % and DI combinations (see “perfect Marth class”). It might work against G&W and Kirby too, but I don’t think it’s worth the effort for those. It definitely doesn’t connect against Peach, she is way too heavy (all of Marth’s throws are weight-dependent).

Comparing Marth’s dsmash with Fox’s upsmash is fun. Dsmash has way more base knockback (70 vs 30) that ensure the high total knockback at 0% of 108 (Fox only has 78 here). Because of upsmash’s higher damage (18 vs 16) and knockback growth (112 vs 100), it surpasses dsmash at just below 100% (100% has 235 vs 234 knockback).
Finally, the knockback angle is slightly different – upsmash has 80° whereas dsmash has 70° (first hit) and 75° (second hit).

Personally, I like to use tipper downsmash if I call the opponent making a certain teching decision – especially no tech and tech in place – and have little time to get there. Wavedash to dsmash or run-dsmash is really fast.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i know i've hit peach with f-throw -> WD -> dsmash before, but it might've been bad DI, which is why i said idk if it works

thank you, kadano <3

 

[Bones0]

Is the rear tipper stronger or weaker than the front? Are their angles different?

 

[Kadano]

i know i've hit peach with f-throw -> WD -> dsmash before, but it might've been bad DI, which is why i said idk if it works

thank you, kadano <3

At 70% (before fthrow), you have a frame advantage of +19. 80% it’s 20, 100% it’s 22. So for every 10% more damage she has, we can expect your frame advantage to increase by 1. Because wd → tipper dsmash is at least 20 frames (4 frames Kneebend, 10 frames LandingFallSpecial, 6 frames until the tipper hitbox can connect), it might seem like hitting her was possible if executed perfectly. Unfortunately, wd → tipper dsmash doesn’t cover enough space to reach her in time, and this doesn’t get better at higher %s as knockback increases. Also, in order for her to even be at a location where she can be hit with tipper dsmash, she needs to DI the fthrow down and away. Unlike Jigglypuff, who escapes the, on most other angles, guaranteed fthrow pivot fsmash by doing so, Peach has no incentive to use that angle.
Now if the Peach does DI down and away at 70%-~120% and misses the tech, wd dsmash will connect. But that’s a very big if; you certainly can’t expect good Peach players to mess up both their DI and their tech so badly.

Is the rear tipper stronger or weaker than the front? Are their angles different?

Thank you for mentioning this, I wanted to mention this but I forgot about it in the end, haha. The second hit has identical properties except the knockback angle is 75° instead of 70°.

 

[Tee ay eye]

75 with respect to the positive x axis?

 

[Bones0]

75 with respect to the positive x axis?

Wouldn't that depend on which way you're facing? lol It's just 75 degrees from the horizon unless I'm confused about something.

 

[Divinokage]

The back side is as strong as the front? I thought for sure the back side of Marth dsmash was quite weaker even tippered.

 

[Tee ay eye]

The back side is as strong as the front? I thought for sure the back side of Marth dsmash was quite weaker even tippered.

what made you think that, out of curiosity?
i actually thought the back-side was stronger because it kills off the top at lower %

apparently, it's equally strong, but it's just more vertical

 

[knightpraetor]

dsmash can be better than grab. I particularly like it against missed techs. it eliminates the guesswork of dealing with frame 2 spotdodge and rolls.

and it sends them up..which is what you would have done anyway. on chaingrabbable opponents obviously the grab is going to be better at most percents but dsmash has its place vs missed techs on normal weight classes especially. it's also useful when you can cover two options.

I think the main reason I don't use it more is that i end up using jab more often because i can just reset the space animals. on other weight classes, I also tend to jab because no one seems to smash DI marth's jab. it is possible to smash DI marth's jab reset at most percents right?

but against the mario brothers why not take the dsmash? you even have the advantage of not getting too close, which incidentally is the reason that dsmash tends to work when the opponent is waiting for movement to act (although you could just dtilt instead. I do this vs spacies a lot more. I mainly like dsmash vs the non-fastfallers that are weak above me).

 

[Mahie]

I like to use dair better. It pops them up, while giving an opportunity for a combo, and can't be teched either, since they just missed a tech. The exception to that I guess is when the opponent doesn't actually try to tech the first time on purpose, and then still has a tech attempt to spend on the dair.

It's much easier to land, too, and though it takes a little extra time to set up than the dsmash, I think it's on you to set yourself up beforehand.

 

[Deleted member]

i kill jigglypuffs that miss rest with fully charged back hit of dsmash on YS.

answer disrespect with disrespect imo

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Is a Tipper Dsmash easier to hit than a tipper fsmash? If it really is faster and if the range for dsmash is roughly the same as fsmash, I may start trying to space dsmash more and use it as a killing move. My only worry is that dmash has more ending lag than fsmash, but idk if that makes a difference for both if you whiff them.

Seriously though, 6 frames compared to like 10-11? That's pretty good.

 

[Dark Hart]

i kill jigglypuffs that miss rest with fully charged back hit of dsmash on YS.

answer disrespect with disrespect imo

how is rest disrespect?

 

[Dr Peepee]

question, could you just expand on this a little bit more? i mean, obviously the statement is simple enough and makes perfect sense, but i would love to hear a slightly more detailed explanation of how each of those 2 situations get played out

i.e.
what do you like to do in those situations, and what can the opponent do in response?

Being directly above Marth makes it easy for him to Utilt vs Uair you and it also probably means you can't FF without being pretty easy to catch. Angles make it harder for Marth to cover everything since he has to actually move a little bit lol.

If you jump on a platform and fight Marth, then he has to jump in order to actually get you.....which is not something Marth likes to do since his aerials are laggy. Even if Marth doesn't commit, he can still not get back down quickly or cover himself well if the opponent jumps or dashes as well. Basically Marth gets stuck in the air a bit with poor tools to cover his hangtime. This is all related to point 1.

Marth putting you in the air means you aren't on a platform and Marth has time to read your angle, making his life much easier. This also probably means the opponent has to burn at least one option to change their trajectory to avoid this issue, and Marth's life is also easier than at neutral in this case because it means he can then commit to another option since the opponent has to deal with Utilt/Uair/Fair now and likely cannot dodge it very easily. Even in the case of Peach, watching Armada FH float because he wants Marth to jump is how he plays in between grounded mixups. When he is higher than that he has to get Marth to jump or get conditioned to stay grounded(so he can go to a platform or fall with Fair and embarrass people lol) since he is much less likely to win vs Utilt/Uair/Fair in those instances the way the hitboxes match up.

I hope this makes more sense =)

 

[Kadano]

Is a Tipper Dsmash easier to hit than a tipper fsmash?

That depends on your definition of “easy to hit”. Maybe this comparison will help you:

Pink is dsmash tipper hitbox on frame 6, blue is fsmash tipper hitbox on frame 12.

 

[BlindSpot]

Hi. I have a question, and I hope it can be answered soon.

There's a tournament coming up in 2 weeks, and my fiance is just getting into smash. She really enjoys Marth, so could someone give me a list of things she could learn? Like, a list of combos, ATs, or whatever.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

That depends on your definition of “easy to hit”. Maybe this comparison will help you:

Pink is dsmash tipper hitbox on frame 6, blue is fsmash tipper hitbox on frame 12.

I think that helps. It looks like the range of dsmash and fsmash on the ground are roughly the same. Cool, thanks.
Oh, and dsmash and fsmash have the same killing power right? I saw number comparisons between Marth's dsmash and Fox's upsmash, but I'd like a comparison between Marth's dsmash and fsmash.

Hi. I have a question, and I hope it can be answered soon.

There's a tournament coming up in 2 weeks, and my fiance is just getting into smash. She really enjoys Marth, so could someone give me a list of things she could learn? Like, a list of combos, ATs, or whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AexiFPr6x84 Here is a pretty basic Marth tutorial video. The quality is pretty crap though.