Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

Neutral DI # DIing on top of them

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i shine out below 20% too..but according to all the frame guys when i asked before this is just marth timing the grab late and they should be able to grab before you get the shine out.

i just want to confirm what percent they are actually supposed to be able to shine out as falco. Also, I'm curious whether the grab timing at 20-26 when marth can regrab falco but not fox on neutral DI is tighter or something than normal grabs..because marth players miss this under pressure in tournament an awful lot. if i understood whether the grab needed to be later or earlier or whatnot maybe i could avoid dropping it..or maybe i should just always pivot after 20 regardless

 

[Construct]

can you give me a definition of the word useage of "tipping". I don't quite understand it.

Tipping is where you hit with the tip of Marth's blade. It's most often referred to in context of his forward smash (if you just here tipper, it refers to that) which does 20% unstaled and has extreme knockback. Tipping makes a different sound than hitting with a different part of the blade. Other moves like up-tilt and forward-tilt have their knockback increased by tipping, and moves likes forward-aerial have their knockback drastically changed (a tipped fair sends opponents upwards).

 

[Tero.]

Anybody like to talk about Marths options while the opponent is on the ledge?

I usually stand around Dtilt range and try to cover most options from there but I don't seem to do the right stuff most of the time :S

What do you do?

 

[Metal Reeper]

Anybody like to talk about Marths options while the opponent is on the ledge?

I usually stand around Dtilt range and try to cover most options from there but I don't seem to do the right stuff most of the time :S

What do you do?

Dtilt range is right where you wanna be. I believe if they roll from the ledge you can just grab them,. Just react to whatever they do. You might wanna be closer to the ledge to bait a ledgehop>attack. If you see that coming just WD back and Fsmash and that should be a stock.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Anybody like to talk about Marths options while the opponent is on the ledge?

I usually stand around Dtilt range and try to cover most options from there but I don't seem to do the right stuff most of the time :S

What do you do?

What character are you fighting? What you wanna do depends on that.

Generally though, you want to stay in Dtilt range and react to whatever they do(wait later than you think you have to maybe) and then swat them back offstage. Mixing in SHs and other movement tricks can also lead to good things.

 

[Tero.]

Against Falcon for example I get hit by ledgehopped aerials a lot if I'm at dtilt range.
I also find it hard to punish his ledge jump from that position.

In general if my opponent rolls i go for (turnaround) grab.
If he stands up either Grab, Dtilt or Fsmash. Dunno whats best. Fsmash is kinda slow I guess. If i Dtilt it doesn't Tip most of the time - probaly because im at tip distance if they're still at the edge so if they move forward with normal get up they mess up my spacing.

For ledgejumps I always try to hit with uair and then miss. I should go for Nair maybe.

Last: if they do an aerial I'll down b if i can predict it. Its laggy an punishable if guessed wrong tho. Dtilt seems to be unreliable. Maybe Ftilt? Not sure.

 

[MasterShake]

Against Falcon for example I get hit by ledgehopped aerials a lot if I'm at dtilt range.
I also find it hard to punish his ledge jump from that position.

I suggest wavedash back if you're getting hit or scared of getting hit. I'm surprised though, dtilt should at least trade?

For ledgejumps I always try to hit with uair and then miss. I should go for Nair maybe.

Do you double jump? Most people just get scared and try to as high as possible. Marth can lolnope them usually with a double jump fair. Ledge jumps imo are super predictable though and for some reason have like 0 invincibility on them, fsmash can take care of it before they even get in the air lol.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Against Falcon for example I get hit by ledgehopped aerials a lot if I'm at dtilt range.
I also find it hard to punish his ledge jump from that position.

I suggest wavedash back if you're getting hit or scared of getting hit. I'm surprised though, dtilt should at least trade?

My guess is that falcon is jumping up with his invincibility frames and attacking before he can get hit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Against Falcon for example I get hit by ledgehopped aerials a lot if I'm at dtilt range.
I also find it hard to punish his ledge jump from that position.

In general if my opponent rolls i go for (turnaround) grab.
If he stands up either Grab, Dtilt or Fsmash. Dunno whats best. Fsmash is kinda slow I guess. If i Dtilt it doesn't Tip most of the time - probaly because im at tip distance if they're still at the edge so if they move forward with normal get up they mess up my spacing.

For ledgejumps I always try to hit with uair and then miss. I should go for Nair maybe.

Last: if they do an aerial I'll down b if i can predict it. Its laggy an punishable if guessed wrong tho. Dtilt seems to be unreliable. Maybe Ftilt? Not sure.

Yeah okay, so Falcon's Uair reaches really far when he gets up. What I like to do against that is either give the move lots of respect or get in clear range of it and try to shield grab it or act like I want to shield grab it(lots of Falcons roll after doing edgehop Uair). It's okay to give Falcon more space when he gets up because even if you let him back onstage once in a while he can't really go anywhere when he does(he needs room to move). Just be ready to cut off his FH option if he catches on to you letting him up more.

You shouldn't do one thing vs every character at the edge(unless we're mostly talking bad ones I guess). Marth doesn't have quite the range advantage to just play the exact same game by the edge vs everyone and have it work out, though a little over or around maximum Dtilt spacing will get you pretty far against pretty much every character I think. If you aren't tipping your Dtilt, you're either doing it late or your spacing is wrong.


If you're talking about your own edgejumps, then jumping in with Fair vs DJ'ing into nothing on the edge vs edgedash(waveland onto the stage) Uptilt covers most of your mixups imo. Uair is great for combos and vs shields but most people can space around that. Nair is too small(only good if someone waits for the sword swing then attacks).


Counter is too risky like you said.

Punishing aerials also depends on the character, but if you start your move early you can beat it(Ftilt or Fair or whatever). If the move is too big/fast you may not be able to predict/react with the move though. It just kind of depends on what you're talking about(and how you play to an extent).

 

[knightpraetor]

wish my method for guarding from the edge was more methodical and scientific..

but honestly what you guys have described has been pretty (ad hoc? is this the right word? the dictionary says "for a particular purpose" but i'm really just looking for a word that kind of means wing it....man studying korean is killing my english)

as well.

I think part of the problem is that while waiting and just reacting is the safest..if you sh at the right times and guess an option you often get stronger punishes...however, if you spam sh in range they will use invuln on you or an attack get up and if you spam them out of range they will wavedash down at the ledge or stand on for free a lot so you kind of mix between them and pausing at dtilt range to try to keep them guessing...also against fox you just assume invuln waveland every time and take up a spacing that puts them under pressures as soon as they get on until they start standing on/wavedashing down instead

 

[OverLord]

Good ol' Nair is good too, at Dtilt range, a bit retreating.

 

[Tero.]

Are there frames during the dash or turnaround animation in which I can't jump cancel grab?

 

[Ripple]

No. You can jump out of any frame of dash or turn around animation

 

[Tero.]

So how come I miss jc grabs while trying to pivot/dd grab when chain grabbing?
Other than that I never miss them.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if you pivot and jump, the jump registers you as facing the opposite direction than you intended. If you truly pivot, you do not need to jc

 

[Bones0]

So how come I miss jc grabs while trying to pivot/dd grab when chain grabbing?
Other than that I never miss them.

I think there is a tendency to grab at the same time or just before jumping when you're also pivoting the grab. If you hit left right really quickly, you're going to grab as soon as you hit right, but you're also going to hold off on pressing jump before you turn around, so you end up grabbing after the pivot but before your JC.

 

[Tero.]

if you pivot and jump, the jump registers you as facing the opposite direction than you intended. If you truly pivot, you do not need to jc

This is old news but doesn't really help me.

I was just wondering why i keep messing up JC Grabs after DD. Im trying to Pivot but i JC in case i miss the Pivot and just wont work most of the time even though i hardly ever mess up normal JC Grabs.
Its weird.
I could do it for years and i dont get why it aint working no more.

Bones0: might be. Gonna try again

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well all I can suggest is spending some time practicing. If you know the proper inputs you should be preforming, i suggest practicing them at a slow, deliberate pace before speeding it up to real time.

 

[MT_]

Just speculating here but I think it might be impossible to jump on the same exact frame that you turn around (eg. input the opposite direction). I have the same issue as you Tero in that I will end up dash-grabbing when I mean to JC grab, and it only happens when I try to pivot.

The same thing is kind of true for trying to waveshine backwards with Fox/Falco (you can't turn around and jump on the same frame, so some people find it harder to waveshine backwards) so I wouldn't be surprised if the same mechanic is in place for pivot JC grabs.

I haven't tested it but now that I think about it this is probably THE ONE frame that you can't jump during a dashdance and it's probably what's affecting you (and me). I might test it later when I have time.

 

[Bones0]

You can jump on every frame. You just won't turn around if you jump at the same time or prior to changing directions. If he is dash grabbing, the only possible explanation is that he is grabbing before the jump. Whether you input a pivot on the same frame, before, or after is irrelevant.

 

[MT_]

You can jump on every frame. You just won't turn around if you jump at the same time or prior to changing directions. If he is dash grabbing, the only possible explanation is that he is grabbing before the jump. Whether you input a pivot on the same frame, before, or after is irrelevant.

Are you positive on this? Grabbing before the jump seems like an unlikely issue seeing how jump->grab happening in only one hand and one motion (x->z or y-z) probably wouldn't find itself out of sequence just because of left hand dashing or whatever. I know for a fact that for Fox/Falco at least, when they are in shine they CANNOT jump on the same frame (or some frame very close to the input for turning around) that they turn around in shine. But I'm not sure if this is an attribute unique to shine or not.

Can Strong Bad or someone come verify the frame data on this?

 

[Bones0]

Have you ever been dash dancing, hit the jump button, and just not have it do anything?

 

[MT_]

Just tested it. And yes, I was just dash dancing and hitting the jump button and he definitely did not jump when I pushed it at a certain timing within the dash dance. I just asked the frame data thread and ajp_anton says that you can always jump, but the testing I did says otherwise... I was actually able to get it pretty consistently (pushing the jump button without jumping during dash dancing) and I am 100% sure I was pushing the jump button and nothing else other than dash dancing.

ajp_anton said that if you input turn around + jump on the same frame that you'll do a retreating jump, so my speculation is that there are a couple frames AFTER the turn around in which you can't jump.

 

[MT_]

From the frame data thread:

Nevermind, I was bored and this bothered me, so I checked it quickly. I was half wrong, there are things I never encounter when TASing...

Dash and run are defined as following, right?
Dash: the initial frames of your run, during which you can pivot.
Run: Follows the dash when you hold a direction for a while. Turning around is slow.

During the dash animation (not stand, not walk, not run), you can't jump on the same frame you turn around (pivot).
The dash animation is still active if you let go of a dash before it turns into a run, all the way until you come to a complete stop (unless you cancel it otherwise of course).
Other than that, jump always overprioritizes turn-around.

I knew I wasn't crazy. Hope this helps Tero.

 

[Dr Peepee]

whoa, I didn't know that. pretty cool.

 

[Bones0]

OMG, guess you were right. Sorry.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

whoa, I didn't know that. pretty cool.

Cool?? That's not cool at all.

Side note though, I wouldn't let this deter anybody from using JC grabs when chain grabbing because you never know which DI they are going to use so sometimes you'll need to pivot, sometimes you won't and you need the JC grab for when you don't.

 

[MT_]

@Bones it's NP lol, just want to know the truth!! And I second Chipmunk's side note.

 

[Tero.]

From the frame data thread:



I knew I wasn't crazy. Hope this helps Tero.

If im pivoting I wouldn't dash Grab any way since the Game registers my Position as standing thus resulting in a standing grab.

explanation could be that im jumping during the Pivot Frame so the Jump will be cancelled and im grabing afterwards so there is no Pivot and no jump resulting in a dash Grab.

Solution is JC grabing a bit later i guess

 

[MT_]

If im pivoting I wouldn't dash Grab any way since the Game registers my Position as standing thus resulting in a standing grab.

explanation could be that im jumping during the Pivot Frame so the Jump will be cancelled and im grabing afterwards so there is no Pivot and no jump resulting in a dash Grab.

Solution is JC grabing a bit later i guess

Or just do an actual pivot

EDIT: Arc does this thing where he pivot shieldgrabs in order to ensure consistency. It's a little weird but I think it works. Pretty much you shield right after turning around then grab which works as kind of a pseudo pivot grab.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Someone gimme some Doc info....I am so lost...jab/ftilt pills. Uthrow? Thats all I got lol.

 

[MT_]

Someone gimme some Doc info....I am so lost...jab/ftilt pills. Uthrow? Thats all I got lol.

I would avoid jabbing and ftilting pills especially if Doc is falling behind his pill in order to follow up with it. The recovery from swatting pills with grounded moves is more than enough for Doc to get a dsmash or grab in. I would suggestion using aerials (fair, sparingly nair) to swat pills because they go through the pills and don't have any recovery lag for hitting them.

Beware of Doc's dash attack because it pokes Marth's shield even when it's completely full.

Beware of his bair when you're recovering. WD off bair is super quick and if it connects then you will probably lose your stock. Same with ledgedrop bair and other stuff.

But yeah, uthrow->juggle or anything->juggle is really good against Doc. Just watch out for fastfall mixups and don't jump into his nairs.



That's all I got. Take the advice with a grain of salt because my experience is pretty limited too. I'd also like to see what everyone else has to say on the matchup also.

 

[Blistering Speed]

What percentages do forward and down throw respectively true combo into (pivot) tipper F & D Smash on Jiggs? This may change everything I thought I knew about this match-up, because it always hinged on Puff relatively monopolising the punishment/kill game.

 

[Beat!]

Fthrow -> pivot (tipper) fsmash combos up to at least 100% unless Puff DIs absolutely perfect (down and away). Not only is it really hard for Puff to consistently react and DI quickly enough if you throw immediately after grabbing, but that "perfect" DI is also sub-optimal vs Dthrow (since it becomes down + inwards instead), so if you mix it up you can **** her up even if she does react in time.

 

[Construct]

Doc is one of those characters that loses to up-throw f-air, lol. Make sure you recover well so you don't get caped. Use aerials to deal with pills. Just out gay him and you'll be fine

 

[MasterShake]

Doc is so dumb. Can you cc his jab into counter before he can downsmash?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What percentages do forward and down throw respectively true combo into (pivot) tipper F & D Smash on Jiggs? This may change everything I thought I knew about this match-up, because it always hinged on Puff relatively monopolising the punishment/kill game.

It only works if she DIs in at kill percents and out at lower percents iirc(regrabs all day if she doesn't DI out though or Nair combos).

If she does DI in though, I think you can get the pivot to work up until....a little over 100%? Either throw.

Fthrow -> pivot (tipper) fsmash combos up to at least 100% unless Puff DIs absolutely perfect (down and away). Not only is it really hard for Puff to consistently react and DI quickly enough if you throw immediately after grabbing, but that "perfect" DI is also sub-optimal vs Dthrow (since it becomes down + inwards instead), so if you mix it up you can **** her up even if she does react in time.

I thought she could also avoid the throws by DI'ing away without down?

Also Dthrow is slow enough Puff can change DI on reaction imo. I agree with the mixups but if you don't have momentum and get a grab(so the player feels more calm and can react) then I feel like they can DI correctly regardless. Maybe I just don't mix up my throws enough and feel frustrated when it doesn't work out, but that's my feelings on the throw mixup atm.

Do you(or does anyone) know how many frames Dthrow is on Puff?

Doc is one of those characters that loses to up-throw f-air, lol. Make sure you recover well so you don't get caped. Use aerials to deal with pills. Just out gay him and you'll be fine

Or upthrow uptilt lol.

Jab pills, sometimes retreating Fair them if Doc looks like he's coming in(two birds with one stone), Doc can't really handle Dtilt approaches, and spaced Nair is also good for handling CC and Doc's general shortness. Fthrow also combos into Fsmash/dash attack/Fair sometimes if you catch him holding in.

Honestly you don't need to DD spam to beat Doc. You just need some walking/WD'ing and well timed moves because Doc can't handle the range lol. You don't even really need to grab him because he can't do anything to you OOS and can only WD OOS backward to reset the situation(worse for him).

 

[leffen]

you can DEFINITELY not DI the dthrow/fthrow mixup on reaction. Both of the throws are weight dependent, so because of puffs light weight its much faster than you think.
And yes, both of them need perfect down-away DI to be safe from pivot tipper (and then you still got regrab at some % and techchases)

Fthrow ->Tipper starts killing around 40% (FD, assuming middle stage). Considering how puff will always be holding down, it might kill even sooner. The matchup is ****ing 7-3 on YS lol, its ridiculous (fair/side b to grab).

This is not even mentioning that you can weakfair/uair to pivot tipper too >_>



random note: if you notice people planking (ie regrabing the ledge from below) try the better version of m2k's runoff->dair. Just jump->dair *slipoff* ->fastfall->grab the ledge. The down air hits waaay below the edge. If they delay their jump, you'll steal the ledge from them.

Another good mixup is to do it facing forward, so that you just edgecancel your dair (0 lag, not even autocancel lag) without slipoffing and then do whatever once the lag is over (dtilt, jab, counter, dash away, etc). Works a bit better against some characters and if you think they will jump backwards to regrab/side b (foxfalco for example) you can replace the downair with a forwardair (also hits below the edge if you time it properly).

This can of course be used as a edgeguard too (fair one is good vs side b cancels, downair->slipoff is **** against sheik/falcon/peach)

 

[Beat!]

I don't think only DI away is enough, but I could be wrong I guess. Doesn't make that much difference, though. They still have to react really fast.

And yeah, it's most likely entirely possible to react to dthrow and change DI from a technical standpoint, but considering how quickly they have to DI vs fthrow (which should be the go-to throw), I imagine it'd be pretty hard for them to immediately realize that they need to DI in the other direction.


@Doc discussion
Ger him up in the air and don't let him come down. Well-spaced attacks are more important than speed.


Edit: leffen with the ninja. Guess I was right then. Yaay. =p