Captain Falcon: Official Character Discussion

[goodoldganon]

As are a lot of my posts, it's just food for thought. I seem to recall Falcon having trouble with swords and shorties in Melee, but I wasn't a Falcon main then. Either way, it's a simple change that doesn't take lines. I do think we need to remember a weakness doesn't mean it needs changed. If Falcon just has a tough time with short guys, then that's too bad. I'd love for Ganon to have a better time with short guys, but I've accepted it as a matchup I just gotta work harder.

 

[kupo15]

ok, some things to add for falcon

Reverse Knee fix
09065023 00169033
135D1E03 00200000
85A00000 00000000

Makes it reversible

Raptor boost
09073464 05050118
07344805 00500000
FFFFFFFF 00000000

Lower base by 25%

I personally feel that falcon's knee is too powerful. The base is too high and the scaling might be as well. The knee didn't put mario into the tumble until 35% and in brawl it goes into the tumble at 0% I believe. I have been able to kill at 110% from across the stage with good DI or at the very least, near death. I have some vid proof if anyone wants. So as a trade for giving him the reverse knee, I propose it to be less powerful. This should be the ID for it

Knee
09135D1E 03020033
13[COLOR=Yellow]XXYY[/COLOR]03 00200000
85A00000 00000000

And if we lower the kb, this must be lowered also

Reverse Knee fix
09065023 00169033
13[COLOR=Yellow]XXYY[/COLOR]03 00200000
85A00000 00000000

Makes it reversible

Gentlemen
0906320A 00046024
06641E00 001e0000
FFFFFFFF

 

[Foxy]

110% can definitely kill across the stage in Melee, I don't see anything wrong with the power of the move.

As it is, its still a bit harder to land than its Melee counterpart so I don't think it needs to be nerfed.

I really with we could fix his Up B though, the backwards movement in it is just scary when recovering... you either try to sweetspot and end up dying or you just land on the edge for safety.

 

[Revven]

Yeah Foxy, I think we should right now try to get a code for Up Bs that have the same problem as Falcon's Up B, like Bowser's and etc. Should be on our priority list right now, right under damage stale.

 

[The Cape]

Link, Falcon, Bowser, few others I cant think of right now.

 

[kupo15]

Yeah Foxy, I think we should right now try to get a code for Up Bs that have the same problem as Falcon's Up B, like Bowser's and etc. Should be on our priority list right now, right under damage stale.

You mean this?

Ganondorf/C.Falcon U/D-b Fixes: (Phantom wings)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
30000000 00000009
66000001 00000000
30000001 00000014
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
90010002 00000000
48001002 0000007C
30000038 00000114
48001002 00000018
92210003 00000040
48001002 00000088
58010000 0000002C
94210003 0000004C
48001002 0000007C
30000039 00000115
48001002 00000070
58010000 00000020
58010000 0000000C
14000004 00000001
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

-Fixes Up-B so that it maintains momentum regardless of direction.
-Fixes Down-B so that it returns the second jump after use.

 

[Revven]

Great. Now we need damage staling.

Although, I'm not so sure Falcon and Gdorf needed their second jump after Down B but, it helps I guess.

 

[goodoldganon]

You mean this?

Ganondorf/C.Falcon U/D-b Fixes: (Phantom wings)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
30000000 00000009
66000001 00000000
30000001 00000014
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
90010002 00000000
48001002 0000007C
30000038 00000114
48001002 00000018
92210003 00000040
48001002 00000088
58010000 0000002C
94210003 0000004C
48001002 0000007C
30000039 00000115
48001002 00000070
58010000 00000020
58010000 0000000C
14000004 00000001
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

-Fixes Up-B so that it maintains momentum regardless of direction.
-Fixes Down-B so that it returns the second jump after use.

So that's just Falcon and Ganon? It doesn't affect people like Link or Bowser? Still good ****.

 

[kupo15]

I replied to pw to ask if he can add them

 

[Revven]

Reverse knee needs to go, IMO.

 

[The Cape]

I ditto SMK's sentiment.

Its an unneeded addition that basically makes Falcon more like Melee falcon and therefore perpetuates the sterortype of Melee 2.0

Why dont we just make his sweetspot hitbox up to 4 or so frames, and keep the rest of the weak knee boxes the same?

 

[kupo15]

Reverse knee needs to go, IMO.

Why......

Cape, tell me how its unneeded and a useless fluff of a change meant for fanboy nostalgia only.

 

[goodoldganon]

Reverse knee is fine considering the knockback is reduced, something all Falcon mains would trade in a heart beat for a more usable and friendly knee. I don't get why everyone has to argue against changes for Falcon. I can say tons of the character changes we have made are superfluous but I don't bother because they are minor changes that make playing as the character a little more solid.

 

[CT Chia]

what does the upB fix do? falcon doesnt need an upB fix, gdorf is debatable. not sure yet. im gonna go with no for him also.

why the hell would any good falcon main want a reverse knee in exhange for less killing power? that seriously makes falcon a lot worse. the knee is already easy to land out of combo, it just takes a little skill. so many any random player who does practice falcon might be wondering why he cant land it right away, well practice and learn the game a little.
your taking falcons best kill move and making it weaker. even if its easier to hit, it wont kill as often. keep the knee power as it was, dont make it reverse, and dont change his upB. his subpar recovery is exchange for the extreme combo beast he in on stage being able to combo into a strong knee which can kill at 60-75. and with many charatcers u cant even edgeguard the upB that safely due to its ridiculously priority.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Up B fix deals with how reverse up B is so much worse than normal up B right (how Falcon does his stupid backwards momentum front flip thing right?

I see no reason to not fix this as really it seems like a terrible oversight in the programing and nothing more. However, I think it should apply to all up Bs that have this problem (being momentum based but also having less momentum when reversed?).

 

[goodoldganon]

Up B fix deals with how reverse up B is so much worse than normal up B right (how Falcon does his stupid backwards momentum front flip thing right?

I see no reason to not fix this as really it seems like a terrible oversight in the programing and nothing more. However, I think it should apply to all up Bs that have this problem (being momentum based but also having less momentum when reversed?).

Agreed. The Up-B fix is great and just needs to affect all momentum based recoveries.

 

[kupo15]

why the hell would any good falcon main want a reverse knee in exhange for less killing power? that seriously makes falcon a lot worse. the knee is already easy to land out of combo, it just takes a little skill. so many any random player who does practice falcon might be wondering why he cant land it right away, well practice and learn the game a little.
your taking falcons best kill move and making it weaker. even if its easier to hit, it wont kill as often.

Because it has better utility and if for example you are at the right edge and the way things work out, you stomp and face left, the reverse knee will kill or at least send them off the stage for an edge guard. This is not broken seeing how anyone can do this. I don't see why he should be forced to only go in one direction when everyone else can chose. Its not as big a deal as you make it out to be.

And its funny how you don't want to change the killing power when you were the first to bring up the change a while back. Did you change your mind since then?

 

[CT Chia]

can we plz go ahead and remove the reverse knee? ppl were saying when it was first made that it wouldnt change stuff much, but it has. even good falcon mains are saying its a stupid addition

(1:32:25 AM) AndyG: falcon reverse knee
(1:32:30 AM) AndyG: is the most unnecessary
(1:32:32 AM) AndyG: funnest buff
(1:32:34 AM) AndyG: dropzone knee
(1:32:37 AM) AndyG: now no longer flubs
(1:32:38 AM) AndyG: you either knee
(1:32:42 AM) AndyG: or you stagespike knee
(1:32:51 AM) ChiboSempai: *facepalm*

it makes it much easier to hit, and its his best kill move (thats useable, lol falcon punch)

it makes no sense. its a stupid thing melee falcon fanboys wanted in without any thought of balance. power creep anyone?

 

[kupo15]

it makes no sense. its a stupid thing melee falcon fanboys wanted in without any thought of balance. power creep anyone?

Hmm, so in the other thread, you said that this plus slight kb nerf makes falcon worse, but now you are saying it makes him OP? You also said it doesn't do anything, yet it throws the game out of balance?

 

[goodoldganon]

Legit chaingrabs on Falcon

1. Sonic - Uthrow. Looks like it works up to any percent, didn't test very high but, looked quite like it would last awhile. Tried DI'ing in multiple directions + jumping, could not escape it.
2. Lucario - Uthrow, you can try to DI to escape it, but it kinda depends on Lucario's percent and stock and your percent.
3. Pikachu - Dthrow
4. Pit - Dthrow (seems to be ongoing beyond 100%, tried DI'ing in multiple directions + jumping, no good).
5. Wario - Dthrow (42%)
6. Luigi - Dthrow (seems to be ongoing beyond 100%, tried DI'ing in multiple directions + jumping, no good).
7. Mario - Uthrow (seems to be ongoing for awhile, not sure if it goes past the 50% threshold, but it certainly seemed to work like Sonic's did. Could not DI enough or far away enough to jump away or tech).

CGs that do not work on CF and how to DI them

• Peach - Uthrow (DI away, jump)
• Bowser Uthrow (DI away, jump)
• Diddy Kong - Uthrow (DI away, jump)
• DDD - Uthrow (DI away, jump, works only up to 18% legitimately)
• Zelda - Dthrow (DI away, jump)
• Sheik - Dthrow (DI up and in)
• Ivysaur - Uthrow (DI away, jump)
• Marth - Uthrow (DI in, jump)
• Ike - Dthrow (DI in, jump)
• ROB - Dthrow (DI away, jump)
• Snake - Uthrow (DI in or up and in, jump)

As you can see, NYC exaggerated SO BAD with CGs on CF. However, I DO believe some of the CGs that he does have on him should somehow be alleviated, either by tweaking his gravity or by getting a throw modifier and upping the growth/base on the throws that work on CF.

Findings from Falco400. Something we'll probably need to look into.

 

[Team Giza]

Would it be possible to make it so if Falcon goes from action ID thrown to hitstun and is in a certain range of knockback (whatever makes him chainthrowable) then more knockback is added? This would be for avoiding chainthrows on him.

 

[Deleted member]

we tought to just shorten his thrown duration so he would get out of hitstun earlier

 

[_Yes!_]

Just quoting from my post:

Captain Falcon: This poor guy gets chain grabbed, combo'd, out ranged/out prioritized/both, by most of the cast. His combos are nice but they hardly compensate for his faults. I suggest reducing knockback to make him combo better, and/or adjusting something to keep him from getting combo'd so hard. He loses every priority battle .

 

[Revven]

I think that, we should tweak his grav so he doesn't get CG'd by NEARLY as many characters. Right now, he has the highest grav, which frankly I find strange. Can't we tweak so that he feels just about the same as now but, doesn't get CG'd by as many characters? (It's definitely not the whole cast but, two of them have one that's ongoing to 100% and probably beyond... that REALLY needs to go).

 

[storm92]

I'm loving the sped-up Dsmash on him for tech-chasing, it's much better with the increased tech speed.
I agree with SMK, if we can tweak his grav so he feels the same but isn't ***** so hard by CGs and long strung out combos, that'd be the best. CF is one of my secondaries, so I love the gravity, but I don't think we quite need it this high.

 

[_Yes!_]

Why doesn't falcon kick offstage give falcon an extra jump?

 

[shanus]

Why doesn't falcon kick offstage give falcon an extra jump?

That doesnt really fix much for him tbh. His true problem isn't in his recovery. That'd be like sticking a bandage on your *** when you have surgery on your chest

 

[_Yes!_]

Well give him the band aid and the surgery :D It won't make him broken to have it anyway. He'd be better off with it than without it. Having an extra option to do something sounds good to me.

 

[shanus]

Well give him the band aid and the surgery :D It won't make him broken to have it anyway. He'd be better off with it than without it. Having an extra option to do something sounds good to me.

I'm alright with doing it. Although I do like that it is a differentiating factor between ganon and him now.

 

[_Yes!_]

Well if anything, falcon should have it and ganon shouldn't since ganon is a falcon clone. Falcon needs any help he can get to be honest. He's not that great in Brawl+. Maybe middle/upper end of low tier.

 

[Magus420]

I adjusted his n-air to have longer hit duration and better "priority" in that it begins hitting at the same time he extends his leg outward for the kick. It's pretty sexy.

OLD
Total: 44
Hit: 7-8, 20-21

NEW
Total: 43
Hit: 7-12, 19-27


09158062 3FC00000
09148062 3CB020C4
09088062 3FE99999
09078062 3E599999

 

[Deleted member]

looking good magus. I gotta try that out.

 

[Magus420]

I played for a few hours yesterday with his new n-air against Ryoko and really liked it a lot. It feels so much more solid and covers him a lot more, and spaces/pressures really well.

 

[_Yes!_]

Will that keep him from being combo or cg'd by tons of characters? v.v

 

[Deleted member]

we are awaiting character specific hitstun....

 

[Magus420]

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?uztomnigmj2

These are some changes I've been experimenting with since the release of PSA. So far I'm really liking the result, especially the gentleman and b-air adjustments. You can do some sexy stuff with the weak b-air, and the gentleman has a wide range of different uses and followups depending on their damage/DI. I added in the grounded down-B IASA just now so I'm not sure how well that works out just yet.

Feel free to ask about the intent of any of these tweaks I'm trying out.


Throws
U-Throw - [IASA: 43->40]
[3 Dmg; 70->55 BKB; 105->120 KBG; 85°->82°]
Up-B
[12 Dmg; 40 BKB; 82->90 KBG; (40)°]

Attacks
Jab 3 (Gentleman) - [IASA: ??->25]
Hitbox A: [1x Size; 6 Dmg; 50->110 KBG; 10->25 BKB; 70°->60°]
Hitbox B: [1x Size; 5 Dmg; 70->130 KBG; 0->15 BKB; (40)°->50°]
D-Tilt - [IASA: 37->31]
Hitbox A: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 80°]
Hitbox B: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 40°->70]
Hitbox C: [1x Size; 10 Dmg; 75->85 KBG; 25->30 BKB; 20°->60]
F-Smash - Could go with either increased KB like I did here or an improved IASA
Up: [1x Size; 20 Dmg; 85->90 KBG; 20 BKB; 45°]
Neutral: [1x Size; 19 Dmg; 85->90 KBG; 20 BKB; 43°]
Down: [1x Size; 18 Dmg; 85->90 KBG; 20 BKB; 40°]
N-Air - [Hit: 7-8 -> 7-12 (1st Kick); 20-21 -> 19-30 (2nd Kick); IASA: 45->43] Replaces frame speed changes
1st Kick; A: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 82°]
1st Kick; B: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 78°]
1st Kick; C: [1x Size; 4->3 Dmg; 100 KBG; 0 BKB; 74°]
2nd Kick: [1x Size; 6->9 Dmg; 125->85 KBG; 45->42 BKB; (40)°->50°]
U-Air
Hitbox A: [1x Size; 13 Dmg; 100->97 KBG; 10->15 BKB; (40)°->45°]
Hitbox B: [1x Size; 12 Dmg; 100->97 KBG; 10->15 BKB; (40)°->45°]
F-Air
[Sweetspot reversible; Fake 'Reverse Knee' hitbox restored to flub hit; Size: 3->7 & moved inwards]
B-Air - [Hit: 10-11 (Strong); 12-15 -> 12-19 (Weak); IASA: 36->29] Allows a very small window to SH->B-Air->DJ
Strong Hit; A: [1.1x Size; 14 Dmg; 100->97 KBG; 20->30 BKB; (40)°]
Strong Hit; B: [1.1x Size; 14 Dmg; 100->97 KBG; 0->20 BKB; (40)°]
Weak Hit; A: [1x Size; 8 Dmg; 100->80 KBG; 20->30 BKB; (40)°->65°]
Weak Hit; B: [1x Size; 8 Dmg; 100->80 KBG; 0->20 BKB; (40)°->65°]
Down-B (Ground) - [Endlag: ??->35]
Initial Hit: [1x Size; 13 Dmg; 70->64 KBG; 50->75 BKB; 45°]
Mid Hit: [1x Size; 11 Dmg; 40->45 KBG; 62->80 BKB; 85°->60°]
End Hit: [1x Size; 7 Dmg; 60 KBG; 50->70 BKB; 50°->75°]
Side-B (Ground)
Attack: [1x Size; (11)->12 Dmg; (27)->25 KBG; (86)->85 BKB; 80°]

Frame Speed
F-Smash - Gets to full pullback frames sooner; Same total duration and hit frames
Pre-Charge: [4.000x Frame 1; 0.350x Frame 9]
Result: 1.000, 5.000, 9.000, 9.350, 9.700, 10.050, 10.400, 10.750, 11.100, 11.450, 11.800, (Charge Anim)
0908002A 3EB33333
0900002A 40800000
Grab (Turn) - [Grab: 16-17 -> 11-12]
[1.500x Frame 1; 1.000x Frame 16]
Result: 1.000, 2.500, 4.000, 5.500, 7.000, 8.500, 10.000, 11.500, 13.000, 14.500, 16.000, 17.000...
090F0038 3F800000
09000038 3FC00000

 

[Yeroc]

Hooray! *Runs off to test out*

 

[shanus]

looks pretty magus
will test when im back from the weekend excursion

 

[g-regulate]

wow do we really think that falcon needs MORE help? just the auto-l-canceling and added hitstun alone makes him one of the better characters just because EVERYTHING combos into knee. and whatever you guys did to his Nair made it god-like, i can literally just full hop fast fall nair into opponents moves, projectiles, pretty much anything and it out prioritizes. (not to mention it combos into knee, amazing KO move.)

 

[shanus]

no, the set you played with this weekend had all of these changes in it g-reg. Please post extensive feedback on him.