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Captain Falcon guide and analysis

Discussion in 'Smash 64 Discussion' started by t3h Icy, Sep 30, 2009.

  1. t3h Icy

    t3h Icy Smash Master

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    4,918
    Falcon: An Analysis

    Like other guides in the past, this uses the same style of organization and formating. This guide is intended for helping players become more informed and possibly more improved with Captain Falcon.

    I: An Overview
    II: Style of Play
    III: Moveset Analysis
    IV: Edge Tactics
    V: Match-ups
    VI: Stages
    VII: Videos
    VIII: The End


    **************************************************
    I: An Overview
    **************************************************

    Falcon is one of the easier characters to learn in the game, and can be played pretty gay; a lot similar to Kirby. Falcon's comboing ability and his speed are a dangerous combination to fast-fallers, to characters in the middle, and he can somewhat power through the floaties. Falcon is also one of the few characters to have a close match-up with Pikachu, being able to combo him and keep up with his speed, although not quite advantageous. Overall Falcon is one of the top characters.

    +Excellent Speed
    +Great comboing ability
    +Has one of the best spikes
    +Good range

    +/-Fastfaller; it can be both good and bad
    +/-Heavyweight; it makes Falcon hard to kill at the top, but easier off to the sides

    -No projectile
    -Can be comboed easily
    -Bad and predictable recovery
    -Large target

    **************************************************
    II: Style of Play
    **************************************************

    For the most part, Falcon is a fairly offensive character, but due to speed and range on some of his aerials, Falcon can also control tempo quite well and be played defensively if need be. Generally when a new player picks up Falcon, they begin using Fthrow to Uair combos with little to no variation. Once a player goes beyond basic combos and shouting "SHOW ME YOUR MOVES", they can begin to use his other aerials and improve his ground game.

    Offensive

    With Falcon's speed, his grabs and his aerials, Falcon can put a lot of pressure on the opponents. This is slightly more difficult against characters with projectiles (such as Fox), but if Falcon gains control of the stage and successfully approach, he can execute various combos. Zoning and spacing are very important here, and Falcon will want to wait for a mistake while keeping a flow of aerials as pressure going. Once Falcon gets the first hit or grab, he can start Uair combos, use walls in many different ways, or hit them towards the edge and use Dair to spike them for the kill. Falcon needs to use speed correctly to avoid being hit and/or comboed back. Overall, most Falcons play in this style, and is generally the better way to play Falcon.

    Defensive

    Again with Falcon's speed, he can keep his distance from the opponent and have them approach him if preferred. Projectile users such as Link and Fox can beat Falcon from a distance, but other characters like DK and Jigglypuff will have to come towards him. This method of play is more difficult to use successfully since Falcon is giving control to the opponents, but you are less likely to make a mistake as compared to attacking directly in front of them and approaching them. If you're able to avoid projectiles and both players are heavily damaged, this style of Falcon is useful, but not exceptionally useful to use for the duration of a match.

    **************************************************
    III: Moveset Analysis
    **************************************************

    Neutral B - Falcon Punch

    Although n00bs will have you know that it's a divine attack, Falcon Punch has limited offensive use. While it can kill most characters at a middle percentage, it has such a long start-up time that it's basically suicide. There are a few cases where it can be useful though. For one, when Falcon is doing the silly Fthrow to Uair combos, and if the opponent has around 55% (varies among characters), he can hit them with it in the middle of the combo. Most players will jump back and easily avoid it, but if it's done over the edge, especially when the character has used his/her jump(s) (Jigglypuff), or generally has a bad recovery (Link), you can pressure them to coming forward. Also, if you have excellent predicting ability, he could score a Falcon Punch on Ness or Pikachu recovering. I would recommend against it though, because if Falcon misses (likely), he'll leave himself very open. The more common use for it is recovering. If Falcon is tossed in one of the top corners of the stage, Falcon Punch can bring him forward slightly more at the cost of some height. It's helpful for horizontal recoveries.

    Down B - Falcon Kick

    Ehh, it's slow and has a long cool-down time. It's not even very powerful or has super high priority. Occasionally if Falcon and the opponent are bouncing around, it can be a surprise approach and catch the opponent off guard, but it's risky. Likewise, it could be used as an aerial for the same reason, but again I don't recommend it too often. This move requires good mindgaming to be used effectively.

    Up B - Falcon Dive

    This is Falcon's recovery move. It has rather limited height and is easy to predict, which makes Falcon's recovery pretty bad. If the opponent makes a mistake edgeguarding Falcon though, they will be sent away (at high percentages) and allow Falcon to easily go back to the stage. Falcon can also use this as a final hit on the Fthrow to Uair combo, since it sends them far enough for a possible kill, does some nice damage and is easy to combo to. If Falcon misses though, it can be dangerous, but it's fairly easy to do. One important difference about Falcon's Up B is that it can be used repeatedly if the previous Up B connected. This can be used off the edge, as Falcon can use the next Up B to recover. Again, it's dangerous to do, but it is a great addition to Falcon's arsenal for skilled players.

    Neutral A

    Falcon jabs, jabs again, knees the opponent (not the lightning kind), and then begins multiple punching, which can be used infinitely if desired. Jab resetting can be useful for grabbing, but the repeated use isn't great. Against a wall, particularly the one near the tent in Hyrule can become a trap for with this move, but it's difficult to use and is escapeable.

    Forward Tilt

    Falcon does a slight kick forward with decent range and power. It can be angled nicely for a possible combo starter, but standing in place makes it easy to avoid and attack back. Treat it and use it the same way as Falcon's Neutral A and his Dtilt, as an alternative.

    Down Tilt

    Falcon's Down Tilt is a nice edgeguard move for those that play safely/defensively. It can be used to to disrupt approaching characters (by ground), similar to the Forward Tilt, but it makes Falcon a smaller target. Usually Forward Tilt will be slightly better, but Down Tilt can be used for edges much more effectively.

    Up Tilt

    Falcon's axe kick is slow, but it has decent range and can hit the opponent twice. It's useful for combos if the opponent is low to the ground, although grabbing is better in most cases. Like Falcon Kick, it can be used to come off as a surprise, and it can be used to combo off a wall or from a platform sometimes, but overall it's not a superb move.

    Dash Attack

    It's not strong, but it has a large amount of frames where it can hit the opponent. It has enough knockback so you don't leave yourself entirely open, and could possibly be used for edgeguarding.

    Forward Smash

    It works like a mini Falcon Punch. Falcon does a fiery kick with great knockback and damage. It's slow though so it doesn't get to be used often, but it is fast enough to possibly throw the opponent off. It is also a great edgeguarding move for safe/defensive Falcons, but it can't hit opponents recovering from below as much as Dtilt.

    Down Smash

    Dsmash has some knockback, damage and range but isn't the greatest of moves. It's slow and only hits in both directions one at a time. It can be used against rolling or teching the opponent if the player is unsure of where the opponent is going. It could also be used at the edge of a stage to hit an opponent with some range without risking going off the stage.

    Up Smash

    This is one of Falcon's combo starters. It has a nice mix of power and low knockback, making it easy to use in succession, or to be switched into Uairs. It is more difficult to begin using compared to grabbing or Uairing, but it works nicely under platforms, espcially in Dreamland. Dashing into using it or using it out of a shield are other ways to use it to begin a combo.

    Neutral Air

    Although it's not a great attack, when running forward this is Falcon's best killing move (for sending the opponent in Falcon's direction), so it does have some use. It can be used for comboing at lower percents as well. It's likely the least used of Falcon's five aerials, but it is still a good move. The main use for it is for using an attack that has a long duration.

    Forward Air

    This is Falcon's main pressure move. Falcon does two quick kicks, which can be used for comboing or starting a combo. If this is used after a fast fall, it can be used as a single kick for slightly easier comboing ability, but the double kick works just fine. This can also be used to extend Uair combos without knocking the opponent too far back, essentially knocking them back horizontally rather than vertically. The low knockback also makes it viable for high damaged opponents for additional comboing into a finisher. A great move.

    Back Air

    This is Falcon's main kill move for the sides of stage, except for angled Uairs on occasion. Bair is powerful, has good knockback and is quick, which is all you would need in a move. The range is rather low though, but it's not as important. Going from the edge to Bair is also a useful edgeguarding attack.

    Down Air

    Easily one of the better spikes in the game, Falcon's Dair is a great quick killer. Dair has great range, enough power and comes out quick. The Uair combo can chain into a Dair over the edge with ease making this a deadly move. It can also be used when approaching, if only for mixing up the moves or coming down from a height (although predictable). Many of Falcons kills come from this move.

    Up Air

    Easily the staple move of Falcon's moveset, this is used to no end. It's fast, has range, versatility (can be angled), has good damage and combos into itself. Many, many Falcons will combo with this, particularly on the platforms in Hyrule (and basically anywhere else). For some characters, or even in general, fast-falling with Uair can be used to combo better. With the knockback at just the right amount, Falcon can use several different attacks out of this. It can also be a kill move at high percents (or from high on the stage). The other important part of this move is near the end of the move, Falcon's leg will be pointed horizontally and if it connects on an opponent at this point, it will send the opponent horizontally rather than vertically. Although not as quite powerful, it has more range than Bair making it safer, and if angled correctly, it can have more knockback (in terms of sending them to the side of the stage the furthest). If used skillfully, Falcon can send the opponents into the deep corners of the stage which is almost guaranteed death (based on character and percentages).

    Forward Throw

    Another staple move in Falcon's repertoire, Fthrow is a great combo starter. It works similar to Kirby's, only that Falcon stays in place and can attack immediately after use. Uair combos usually start from Fthrow, and if near the edge, it can be used to spike the opponent with Dair. It is a terrible killing move though, and after a certain percent (around 70%; it varies among characters), it isn't a great combo starter, but because of Bthrow, grabbing is still viable at those percents.

    Back Throw

    Although it doesn't have as much knockback as DK's or Jigglypuff's, Falcon's Bthrow is still a good killer. At higher percentages, hitting with Bair or Uair works more effectively, but if Falcon is being played on the ground, this can work too. It can also be used for low percent gimps against characters with poor recoveries like Link. However, that's more difficult to pull off, but nonetheless works if Falcon gets a grab then and there.

    Edge A 0%-99%

    Falcon climbs onto the edge and does a kick. It's weak and slow, and only useful for varying the moves used, but otherwise it's fairly poor. A possible surprise attack though.

    Edge A 100%-999%

    Similar to the stronger version, except even weaker and slower. It does have priority, but it can be countered.

    Taunt

    Useless in the game, but if the opponent happens to be a n00b and/or kid, multiple uses before and after 0-death combos can provoke the player into playing poorly. Completely ineffective against anyone moderately advanced, but a psychological edge over lesser players.

    **************************************************
    IV: Edge Tactics
    **************************************************

    Recovering (off the edge)

    Falcon is fairly easy to edgeguard due to his poor recovery and large size, but Falcon can be somewhat offensive when recovering. If Falcon uses Up B early, it can connect on the opponent and send them flying away (or back off a wall), but it has low priority and low range, so it usually will lose out. Still a possibility. Better yet, if Falcon has enough height/distance to sacrifice, Falcon can do an aerial before using Up B or his second jump. Again, it's a choice and different playstyles will affect how Falcon recovers. The sacrifice can be worth it occasionally though but it puts Falcon in a worse spot if he misses.

    Recovering (on the edge)

    Since Falcon's edge attacks are rather poor compared to other characters, and his aerials are awesome, pulling off the edge and then jumping with an aerial is a great way to give Falcon space to get back on and throwing in some damage as well. If Falcon is lucky, he can even pull a combo off. Fair or Uair are the best choices, but Nair and Dair could be used, though lacking range. Up B can also be a surprise attack, but if it misses or Falcon gets hit, he loses his second jump. Defensively, Falcon can also simply climb on or roll onto the stage, but if the opponent is spaced well or predicts correctly, Falcon is setting himself up for a combo. Fair and Uair are often the best methods, but if it becomes predictable, it loses its use. Simply going back onto the stage can be more effective.

    Guarding (off the edge)

    All of Falcon's aerials can be used to improve the chances of killing the opponent, but Dair in particular is used more being a long-ranged spike. If Falcon is over the edge with an opponent due to a combo (particularly Uair or Fair), spiking with Dair is easy, effective and safe. Attacking with Falcon starting with Dair is slightly more risky because the opponent may be able to hit Falcon away from the edge (such as DK), but still viable. If the opponent doesn't have high damage or isn't killed by spikes as easily, Falcon can also use angled Uair or Bair by hopping from the edge. If height is required though, Falcon can also do this on the stage. Nair is also a possibility for its duration.

    Guarding (on the stage)

    This is more for safe-playing Falcons, or if the opponent isn't currently hitstunned. Falcon's Dtilt, Ftilt and possibly Utilt can hit opponents coming up from below, to send them toward the bottom corner of the stage, and Falcon's Fsmash is for when more power is needed. Dsmash is also a possibility if range is desired. Falcon is much more effective going off the stage though since Falcon's aerials all work much better than tilts. Even aerials on the stage aren't lethal if the opponent DIs correctly (such as a Dair from over or near the edge of the stage), but if Falcon techchases, it could be useful. However, all of the defensive moves are much safer than going off the stage.

    **************************************************
    V: Match-ups
    **************************************************

    Mario

    Mario has a similar style in comboing, and most of Mario's attacks have low knockback which can keep Falcon in place. However, Falcon can also combo Mario nicely using his Fthrow and Uair combos and can easily outspeed Mario. Mario's Fireballs can somewhat nullify Falcon's speed, although Falcon still has an easier time getting the first hit. Mario's grabs have to be avoided as Falcon gets sent far off the screen and Mario's Bair, Fair and Fireballs all work well at keeping Falcon from coming back. Careful approaches are necessary for Falcon to get the edge over Mario.

    My rating: 45:55

    Luigi

    Similar to Mario, Falcon's main advantage is largely outspeeding Luigi. Although Luigi is more awkward to combo due to his floatiness, it's harder for Luigi to initiate a combo on Falcon since he's much slower. With his weight, Falcon is also somewhat resistant to Luigi's Up B and Down B (compared to others), but like Mario, Luigi can use his grabs to send Falcon far off the edge, except again due to speed, it's hard for Luigi to do. Luigi in more or less a slower and floaty version of Mario, and Falcon doesn't have too much trouble with him. Luigi's Fireballs have low priority, so Falcon should be able to get by them without any problems.

    My rating: 60:40

    DK

    DK is likely Falcon's easiest match-up due to the sheer size of DK. Falcon's simple combos become even easier against DK and they can continue for much longer due to his weight as well. Falcon can also play defensively if need be since DK has no projectiles. DK's Up B is effective against recovering Falcons, and his grab combos can work nicely due to Falcon also being a heavy character. Overall, Falcon just needs to get the first hit of a combo in and DK should be high percent or dead at the end. Approaching on the ground is somewhat risky though due to DK's grab range and his grabbing ability in general. Don't underestimate the speed potential of DK though.

    My rating: 65:35

    Link

    Although Link falls prey to Falcon's Uairing combos, Link has a disjointed hitbox with his sword and two projectiles, making approaching somewhat difficult for Falcon. Speed is still the main advantage of Falcon, as well as edgeguarding. Link's horrible recovery makes Falcon Dair and most any aerials from the edge lethal hits. Even Bthrow from near the edge followed by an edgehog can be a kill against Link. Link though has a slew of combos that work on Falcon, so Falcon can't mindlessly approach Link. Avoiding the various projectiles, while still pressuring Link is the best way to initiate a combo.

    My rating: 60:40

    Samus

    Falcon's match-up against Samus is like Luigi's being a floaty that has poor speed. Samus has a worse recovery than Luigi though, but has a disjointed hitbox with Fair and Neutral B is a better projectile. Samus also can't grab Falcon with ease so Falcon is moderately safe in close fighting on the ground. As usual, Falcon's Fair and Bair are great ways to get a hit on Samus, and if platforms are available, Uair works nicely too, as well as Usmash. Falcon can't combo easily though, so speed and proper edgeguarding are Falcon's way to beat Samus, but she does have some powerful moves to be careful around.

    My rating: 60:40

    Falcon

    Falcon can combo another Falcon easily, for the same reasons Falcon can combo DK easily. Since it is a mirror match, approach and spacing are key. Once Falcon begins a combo, it's usually death (when towards an edge), so often it comes down to who gets the first hit.

    My rating: 50:50

    Ness

    Ness is an interesting opponent against Falcon. While Ness can slowdown Falcon's ground game and force Falcon to use aerials over grabs, Ness is much slower. Both have exploitable recoveries and when one is over the edge, the other will likely get the kill. Falcon against Ness is essentially speed versus priority. Falcon has to approach carefully against Ness as DJC combos can easily get Falcon to the edge and over, but Falcon can also combo Ness easily and bring him to the edge. Overall, Falcon has a slight edge by using speed properly, but any mistakes for either player may cost up to a stock.

    My rating: 55:45

    Yoshi

    Like Ness, Yoshi's DJCs are effective against Falcon, but Yoshi can't grab as easily as Ness can. Yoshi is fairly big and Falcon's Uair combos work easily on Yoshi, and Falcon has better movement speed. Edgeguarding can be tricky though since Yoshi has super armor frames and can then counterattack Falcon. Falcon can pressure Yoshi off the edge though into using the second jump early. Yoshi is like Ness and has to be approached carefully or Falcon may get killed, but if Falcon can get a grab, Yoshi won't have much left in him. Parrying can be an interesting part of the match.

    My rating: 55:45

    Kirby

    This is one of Falcon's worst match-ups. Falcon can't combo Kirby too fluently and can be a hassle to edgeguard effectively. Kirby on the other hand can overwhelm Falcon using Utilt and Dair off the edge. With his multiple jumps, Kirby can also safely go off the stage and make Falcon's already poor recovery harder to make it back to the edge. Kirby is slow though and Falcon has slightly more range for the most part, but Falcon has to play cautiously. Kirby is also light and can make Falcon's Bair, Bthrow and angled Uair good killers.

    My rating: 40:60

    Fox

    With lasers, near equal speed and also having great combos, Fox can be difficult for Falcon. Falcon can usually kill Fox once he's over the edge and Falcon can combo Fox with ease, but Fox can also combo easily and force Falcon to approach with lasers. Falcon is also a large target and makes avoiding the lasers tricky. It's a close match-up, but a bit in Fox's favor due to better control. Falcon can either approach carefully or quickly to get to Fox and begin combos. Fox's combos have to be avoided though as some are practically inescapable, but the same can be said for some of Falcon's.

    My rating: 45:55

    Pikachu

    This isn't a terrible match for Falcon since he can keep up to Pikachu's tempo, but Pikachu is Pikachu and has priority, speed, a great recovery and great edgeguarding ability. Pikachu's weight though makes Falcon's Uair combos still connect and be able to kill Pikachu at low percentages. Falcon has to approach carefully because if Pikachu begins a combo, Falcon likely isn't coming back. Grabs can work, although Pikachu is often in the air, but a Fair into a grab or Uair can start a combo. Spacing and zoning is important and using Falcon's extra range can help a lot. Predicting Pikachu's recovery correctly also helps Falcon greatly.

    My rating: 45:55

    Jigglypuff

    Being the floatiest character, Falcon has a lot of difficulty comboing Jigglypuff, and being a large target can make combos easy for Jigglypuff, especially Rest combos. Falcon though has more priority and range so it makes Falcon relatively safe. Both characters can edgeguard the other easily, and both can get the other over the edge easily. Falcon has to play somewhat defensively and space very well to get hits without being hit. Uair killing Jigglypuff from the top is possible, but the sides can also work well with Bair and angled Uairs. If Falcon makes any mistakes and gets hit though, Jigglypuff can take a life off of Falcon using Rest combos.

    My rating: 50:50

    **************************************************
    VI: Stages
    **************************************************

    Hyrule

    Hyrule can be both nice and bad for Falcon. Since Falcon is a big target, the bottom right section is a bad area to get into, unless the player is careful and confident enough. The platforms are practically built for Falcon to Uair the opponent to a kill or near kill with Up B. Personally, I dislike using Falcon on this stage, but others may differ. The tornado can be used nicely for Falcon's use as it work as an automatic Uair combo starter, or if precise enough, a free Falcon Punch, while Falcon's weight can often keep the tornado from killing him most of the time. His moves and combos can also help force the opponent into it. It's a helpful point; better than other characters, but general Falcon gameplay won't involve it.

    Dreamland

    Falcon has a much better approach against fast character such as Fox and Pikachu here due to the smaller size. Falcon can also use Uair more effectively as an approach due to the platforms, and they are perfect height for starting a combo with Usmash. Falcon's limited recovery can be a bit of an annoyance though as at high percentages, either way he gets sent, he'll have some difficulty getting back.

    Peach's Castle

    There's likely some bias in here, as it's my favorite stage as Falcon. No edges and a non-solid bottom platform can be quick deaths for Falcon. Falcon though can do the same back with good edgeguarding, though it's more against him. He can utilize the central part of the stage effectively though with Uairs and Usmashes. The slopes in the top corners often make Falcon have a more difficult time killing the opponent, but could be used for making longer combos. The bumper in the middle works nicely with Falcons moves such as Fthrow and Uair, which can lengthen a combo, or move an opponent to a better position for Falcon. However, the opponent can also do this back.

    Kongo Jungle

    This stage is pretty disadvantaged for Falcon. Falcon can't use the platforms quite like Dreamland or Peach's Castle, but can still help Uair combos. The barrel isn't particularly good for Falcon as he's a large target and the long stun will likely just get Falcon back off the edge. The poor height on his Up B is also annoying for when Falcon ends up under the stage. Opponents coming from under the stage though are susceptible to getting spiked with Dair

    Saffron City

    Ehh, it's a decent Falcon stage. The two pits in between the buildings are nice for Falcon's Dair as the opponent can only go straight up back into his attacks. Falcon has fairly good ability in controlling where the opponent goes with combos, so sending them into the Pokemon isn't entirely impossible. The left section of the stage is also both good and bad for Falcon. While it's a nice playground for Uair combos and possible Dair down the pits, Falcon's recovery vertically is poor so getting spiked himself in the pit is hard to recover from. The moving platforms also make it unreliable for Falcon to recover on them, while other characters can freely use them.

    **************************************************
    VIII: Videos
    **************************************************

    Here are some demonstrations of Falcon.

    Versus Fox
    Versus Falcon
    Versus Kirby
    Versus Link
    Versus Mario
    Versus Ness
    Versus Pikachu
    Versus Samus
    Versus Yoshi

    **************************************************
    VIII: The End
    **************************************************

    Hopefully this helps up-and-coming Falcons, creates discussion or is used for general Falcon information. Thanks for reading.
  2. Zen Yore

    Zen Yore Smash Ace

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    falcon is the last character to use if you're gonna refer to a guide.

    edit : w00t 666 posts
  3. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    fast fall between up-airs so you can do an all up-air combo on a good number of characters
  4. ballin4life

    ballin4life Smash Debater

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    disproving determinism

    Good job making a comprehensive guide, although I disagree with some of what you say.

    I don't think that I am some authority on falcon, but in my opnion the biggest mistake most falcons make is overusing his other aerials when an uair combo would work fine. Obviously if it's not a serious match you may be just be messing around.

    The guide is also missing some set ups on heavies like fthrow -> falcon punch, uair -> z cancel -> falcon punch, or fthrow -> fair (both hits or just the second one) -> double jump uair -> upb. Also at higher percents vs most characters fthrow -> nair or fthrow -> dashpivot bair or fthrow -> dashpivot reverse uair.

    Dair has more range if you're facing backwards and I'm pretty sure nair is actually more powerful than bair, and reverse uair may be more powerful as well (it definitely hits at a lower angle).

    Link to some videos as well.
  5. Lovage

    Lovage Smash Hero

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    usmash samus in ****** when she tries to do low bairs
  6. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    edge a over 100% has insane priority

    but not greater than like f-smash pika

    f-smash hits opponents recoverying from below if you angle it down

    down smash doesn't suck

    and lots of other mistakes
  7. t3h Icy

    t3h Icy Smash Master

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    Added videos and changed a couple things.

    Edit: Ehh. I suppose if the opponent didn't see it coming, Edge A at over 100% could be used for a hit, but if the opponent isn't standing right where Falcon is, it leaves you pretty open.

    Down Smash has range and decent knockback, and it can be useful against teching and rolling opponents, but not exactly a key move of his or anything. I suppose it could be used to start a combo.

    The Forward Smash thing I forgot about, thanks.
  8. Nintendude

    Nintendude Smash Master

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    I think f-tilt is a really underrated move. I win Falcon dittos all the time by just poking people with f-tilt and getting grabs off of it. It's also a good simple edgeguard in some situations.
  9. NixxxoN

    NixxxoN Smash Master

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    True that. My falcon got a lot better since i learned how to use the ftilts (and also up tilts are good aswell!!)
  10. ballin4life

    ballin4life Smash Debater

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    disproving determinism

    s2j what's a good use for down smash? Not arguing, just looking for tips.
  11. Gea

    Gea Smash Master

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    I know this is time consuming, but add some BOLD, size, color, and indention tags to your post. It will make it look X100 better and make you seem smarter. True story. Good stuff though.

    Edit: Dang, looks better already. I am really impressed. I wish there was a rep system so I could + you.
  12. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    if you are edgeguarding pika with down tilt in left side of hyrule and you do a reverse down-tilt, making him hit off the side of the middle stage, you can do a down-smash and kill him
  13. t3h Icy

    t3h Icy Smash Master

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    I suppose Dsmash could work as a ranged edgeguard when on the stage.

    Edit: Changed and expanded a few things after re-reading it through.
  14. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    Mount Gambier, Australia. Along with my Mad Duck.
    You could be doing a million other, more useful things whenever you're in the situation for using downsmash. For instance, why use it on teching/rolling opponents when Falcon is fast enough to grab them instead, leading to combos that downsmash could only dream of achieving?

    Edge attack over 100% is also a bad idea, it's high risk for little reward, especially when you could simply edgehop -> anything and get a grab/combo out of it.

    Oh yeah, and in Falcon dittos (and likely some heavy matchups) grounded down air -> Falcon punch works around 70%.
  15. MattNF

    MattNF Smash Lord

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    it's good for mindgames
  16. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    The moment someone sees you getting up on the ledge at over 100%, they have ample time to space a hit on you. Any shock effect associated with being mindgame'd would be lost. Just because someone doesn't expect a move doesn't mean you should use it, otherwise DK's SideB in Melee would actually see use in high level play.

    Re-grabbing the ledge would act as a better mindgame without putting yourself at as much risk.
  17. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    re grabbing has like 0 mind games
  18. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    Oh. I'm being trolled :(
  19. ballin4life

    ballin4life Smash Debater

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    If you always edgehop though you will be punished.

    Also I think grounded dair -> falcon punch works vs like every character at the right percentages. However, if you have to jump and falcon punch you could probably just kill with a nair instead if you're not trying to be flashy
  20. NixxxoN

    NixxxoN Smash Master

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    Some details that i did not see on the guide.

    You can redirect up+b. IIRC if you keep B pressed you can do a higher up+b, and if you keep b pressed and you press forward, you can make it go further forward.

    Tilt chains at the rapetent. At the right %, you can chain combo several chars using UTILT and FTILT.
  21. Wenbobular

    Wenbobular Smash Hero

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    People who are predictable with ledgehop aerial are so easily punished by pivot Fsmash. Like, laughably easy. The 100% getup attack is actually a really nice mixup because some people have no idea what his getup at that % does.

    Also, going to double post here because I can't remember all I want to say about his guide without quoting it.
  22. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    how does re-grabbing the edge trick your opponent. your edge options are so limited

    and grounded down-air to falcon punch at 70% against other falcon's is too little you need like 110 percent maybe a little higher

    Falcon kick can be used as a finisher to some combos, if you f-air them for example at mid -high percent you can use falcon kick to hit them

    too many mistakes or lack of knowledge
  23. Wenbobular

    Wenbobular Smash Hero

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    Notes in...red?

    Well, that was fun.
  24. DMoogle

    DMoogle A$

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    I just tested this. The range is approximately 90% to 150%, although once you get that high (and higher) up-b or up-air is probably a better choice.
  25. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    I didn't say that ledgehopping ALL the time was a good idea, I simply said it's a better option than over 100% getup attack. Anyone who constantly does ANYTHING will get punished. That's Smash 101.

    At percents such as 70%, Nair isn't likely to kill. Maybe would work on floaties, but presumably they have to be at a lower percent to land dair -> falcon punch, so nair wouldn't kill them either.

    I agree. It's "laughably easy" to punish anyone who is predictable, whether they're on the ledge or in general. That's not the point I'm making here. I'm saying that ledge attack over 100% is a bad option. That's it.

    Also, good players will know how Falcon's getup attack works at over 100%. I thought we were talking about high level play in the first place? You have better options, whether it's regrab ledge, get up without attacking, ledgehopping, ledgehop attacking or rolling in under 100%. Ledgeattack over 100%, however, is a bad option that your opponent should not be hit with in high levels of play. Again;

  26. Wenbobular

    Wenbobular Smash Hero

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    ...Didn't s2j already say that regrabbing the ledge was completely pointless? What's it get you? O right, you're back where you started. ...Great?
    Also, using the getup attack isn't as horrendously bad as headbutt. It actually...you know...does something. High priority isn't enough for you as a mixup? You're invincible through the beginning, and the actual move has decent priority.
    ...~_~
  27. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    I ignored his post because that's an idiotic thing to say.

    Mindgames, son. If you condition your opponent to think that whenever you leave the edge, you'll get back on the stage every time, they'll prepare (and space) themselves to punish that. Re-grab the ledge helps to throw the opponent off, and more effectively than get up attack over 100%. It's fast, and leaves you lagless. Get up attack over 100% is neither of these things. This means that you can re-grab to anything, even stay on the edge, and your opponent suddenly isn't so sure what you're going to do anymore, and most importantly you're SAFE. You could ledgehop attack from there and your opponent might not be ready in time to pivot fsmash, because they were thrown off from the regrab. I shouldn't have to be explaining this to you, because I trust that you're already good enough to know how to mindgame.

    That's when spacing comes in. Good players will see the beginning of get up attack, and respace themselves (and they can only do that because it has such lag). At that point, it doesn't matter how many invincibility frames or priority you have, you're going to get punished because you're in lag.

    Also, DK headbutt, theoretically, is not bad. It meteor smashes, it puts your opponent in the ground for a free whatever-you-want, and has little ending lag. Point here is, that DK has much better options, and the reward for landing the hit is much less than that of his other options. Just like 64 Falcon's over 100% get up attack.
  28. MattNF

    MattNF Smash Lord

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    The get up attack and the normal get-up-on-the-ledge animation are the same. So you can't see it coming.

    I see a lot of good Falcons using the get up attack, including boomfan, so it's not as bad as you think it is.

    Also, regrabbing the ledge can be good against noobs. You can fall, jump, then regrab and sometimes you can bait them into doing an fsmash or another laggy move or something
  29. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    That's why you cover multiple options. You should be spaced so that you can punish with a high priority move whether they getup attack or just get up, so it doesn't matter which option they choose, they'll be punished.

    Link me. I don't believe that any good player could not respace themselves against get up attack over 100%.

    Read my previous post more carefully:

    Be less predictable, without putting yourself at unnecessary risk. This is basic, guys.
  30. Lovage

    Lovage Smash Hero

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    wtf? just try it yourself

    it's not the most essential move of falcon's moveset, it's just a tricky move that's good to know
  31. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    I just did, at both below and above 100%. It's not hard to avoid, and it's punishable. There are much better and safer options. It's certainly useful in low level play, but that's not the point. Granted, this is a guide, so it warrants being put in that getup attack can be useful in low level play, but it shouldn't be listed as useful for high level play, since it's so easily punishable.
  32. Wenbobular

    Wenbobular Smash Hero

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    Man, this argument is pretty dumb.
    Also, your argument for DK's headbutt being a viable move...whut? It has slow startup and probably less range than Pichu's Ftilt.

    Anyways, this argument about Falcon's getup attack has gone on long enough I think, as neither of us can convince the other...so let's just call it a draw and move on.
  33. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    I wasn't arguing that it was a viable move, in fact, I was arguing the opposite. I was merely stating that, theoretically, it has good points (such as meteor smash qualities and the opportunity to cause a lot more damage through ground-spiking) but that it is still a bad move that has punishable lag, which is why I compared it to Falcon's get up attack. So, in actuality, you've just helped solidify my argument against the get up attack, as your criticisms of the headbutt can be applied to Falcon's get up attack.

    Fair enough, I guess this is supposed to be a discussion on the guide itself, after all.
  34. MattNF

    MattNF Smash Lord

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    Uh no, if they use the normal get up animation they can immediately shield any attack. So you'd be forced to go in for a grab. then, if you expect your opponent to grab you, do the 100% get up attack and theyll be knocked down then you can just techchase them

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTOZJV87UnU&feature=channel_page

    3:02

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdbHcBC2wG0&feature=channel_page

    1:25


    there might have been more but I dont feel like rewatching every single video on there

    Regrabbing the ledge doesnt make you safe, you can still be hit by many attacks

    what do you suggest as an alternative? I'd lol if you say a ledgehopped fair or something
  35. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    noob detected



    actually reading through most of what you said you are a dumass
  36. ballin4life

    ballin4life Smash Debater

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    First off, at like 100% against pika grounded dair -> jump falcon punch works. However, unless you're in the very middle of hyrule grounded dair -> bair kills also (note: just tested and reverse uair will kill even from the middle of hyrule). All I'm saying is that if dair-> jump falcon punch is gonna work, then dair -> nair will probably kill anyway. If you're talking about dair -> stay on the ground falcon punch, then you're right, but that's not what I said at all.

    Also I don't really understand what you're saying about the ledge situation. You say that you have to mix it up, you can't always ledgehop, but also that the get up attack is useless. People just said the get up attack is a good mix up along with your other options.
  37. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    Well, so much for end of this argument...

    Fair enough. I guess that elevates it to "highly situational" status, I'll concede there. But that means it's still a bad option 90% of the time.

    I know it's not completely safe. It's still relatively safe though, and a much safer option when compared to ledge attack.

    I also listed quite a few alternatives on the previous page, I can't be bothered quoting it.

    I haven't seen an intelligent response from you throughout this entire thread. Oh, besides the gem "regrabbing the ledge has 0 mindgames". I expected better from a top level player than flippant comments you'd expect to hear from a child.

    In my first post, when I said dair -> falcon punch works at 70%, I was referring to grounded Falcon Punch. I assumed you were also referring to grounded Falcon Punch. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

    There's another point that you didn't include here that I said was important, and that's keeping as safe as possible/making sure you get the most reward out of your risk. The point here is that over 100% ledgeattack is high risk, and low reward. You can tech chase out of it, but that's not even a guaranteed followup, and to even get that far you have to have not been punished out of ledgeattack. Mixups are good, I'm just saying that ledgeattack is a very risky and situational mixup.
  38. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    LMAO

    it doesn't work unless your opponent is surprised by your noobiness to think that actually works and doesn't tech. Learn your numbers before you spread false information

    ---
    100% ledge attack is high risk high reward because you are not dead and if they get socked by that wussy punch they are often knocked onto the floor

    a lot of people, when they see the normal will run over and try to attack/grab you for the easy kill but his tiny punch socks the **** out of his opponents

    ledge jump aerials are most of the time BAD because most characters will just space outside of it and wait for you to land and then rape you so hard that you fly off the stage

    rolls aren't bad but most people wait in a position so that they can cover the roll and run forward to cover the no attack get up

    so you have the 100% ledge attack which, compared to most characters is pretty good because it knocks the **** out of your opponents and looks like a normal get up

    its a good mix up and definitely more useful than 90% of the time, it tricks a lot of high level opponents for the reasons I listed above

    you try to act smart by comparing it to a pretty useless move in DK's side-b but it's better than that

    --

    what does regrabbing the edge do for falcon, pretty much nothing. You can't do fancy ways to get back like other games you are very limited in your options. Most characters can easily knock you off while you are regrabbing and after the regrab

    the only person you mindgame is yourself

    ---

    that downsmash "advice" was something cool I did to superboomfan when he was recovering with Pika. It's situational, but it kills at very high percents. It could be useful if you are running towards the edges of Hyrule from the middle platform and once the edge cancels your run you can do a down-smash

    Alternatively, you could use the down-smash as a edge-shield buster because the first hitbox knocks them off while the 2nd hitbox hits them

    ---

    you say all I have is bad advice but the first post lists something most falcons neglect, which is fast-falling between up-airs to get more up-airs. If you look at Superboomfan or Isai's falcon, they do this all the time to get more combo links and turn that 90% combo into a death combo. It's especially good against some floaties with platforms




    learn your stuff before you try to post advice
  39. Blackshadow

    Blackshadow Smash Ace

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    If you looked at the first post I made about it, I said I THINK it works AROUND 70%. Turns out, when I tested it, it's actually around 125% when it combos. I never said outright "IT IS 70% NO MORE NO LESS", and granted I was quite off on the figures, I attribute that to vague memory recall. I wasn't rude about it either.

    Read back through my posts, I addressed this already.

    As I said earlier, it's at "highly situational" status, for exactly the situation you just said. Except, MattNF said it first. Please read my posts.

    I thought I already said, for the millionth time in this thread, that I'm not suggesting that we should ledgehop aerial EVERY SINGLE TIME. AGAIN, please read my posts in the future.

    ...which is only useful in ONE situation that has been listed so far. To beat the 100% attack up, space a high priority ANYTHING. That beats out both the non-attack and attack get up. So, ultimately, it's high risk for low reward, and situational. Doesn't sound like such a good option.

    Your reasons? All of your reasoning was flawed.

    Nice counter. "You're wrong, I'm right", is that how top-level players justify their reasoning nowadays?
    Look back at the discussion I had with Wenbobular, and tell me why it ISN'T like DK's sideB.

    Don't be predictable with it. Make your opponents second-guess themselves. Why am I telling you this? I thought top level players were top level BECAUSE they how to mindgame, this is getting ridiculous.

    At least I know HOW to.

    ...but there's better options, right? Less risky, with a higher reward? Now we're getting somewhere.

    I agree. I didn't have a problem with it. I just disagree with you that ledgeattack over 100% is a good option outside of one situation.
  40. s2j

    s2j Smash Master

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    I haven't seen an intelligent response from you throughout this entire thread. Oh, besides the gem "regrabbing the ledge has 0 mindgames". I expected better from a top level player than flippant comments you'd expect to hear from a child.

    "I agree. I didn't have a problem with it. I just disagree with you that ledgeattack over 100% is a good option outside of one situation."

    then don't contradict yourself and act like a dumb guy

    being completely off the mark like 70% stomp to falcon punch is rude in itself to learning noobs and makes you not a person of trust (or smarts)

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