Can we talk about wave-bouncing/b-sticking with Lucas?

[Cronoc]

I don't see any topics about this important option. Much like Lucas in Brawl, if you set the c-stick to special attacks, jump forward and press the c-stick backwards you get the wave-bounce demonstrated in this Brawl video: https://youtu.be/53Wix_KsK5g?t=3m

In Brawl it's almost impossible to mess this up. I can throw wave bounce PK fires all day. In Smash 4 it's inconsistent, and I theorize that it's tied to a much more exact press of the C-stick. Perhaps if any diagonal is read when the c-stick is pressed it doesn't work (as in, it requires an exact right/left flick), or maybe it has something to do with how quickly the c-stick is flicked... I'm at a loss currently for why it seems to work and not work at various times. Sometimes I can do it over and over, sometimes I can't make it happen for 4-5 tries in a row.

Lucas is pushed so far back as to be unpunishable by most characters when doing this but if you mess it up your enemy likely gets a free punish. If this trick is employed the Lucas player simply cannot afford to mess it up. Can we investigate as to how we can do this properly and consistently? Anyone have any ideas? It's very strange that no one seems to have looked into this (as far as I can see), as it's so safe as to make Lucas a nightmare to approach when executed properly.

Edit: and of course right after posting this I find a thread talking about it. But my thread is about doing it consistently, and about wave bounced PK fires in particular.

Edit 2: spent some more time in the lab with it, it looks like when wave bouncing fails it has something to do with not having enough forward momentum. Seems it's impossible to do without having at least walking-speed forward momentum. My previous thoughts about c-stick accuracy were wrong. Still, every once in a while it doesn't work for a reason I don't understand. It isn't about timing within the space of a jump, wave bouncing can be used at any height at any time in the air.

 

[LightlyToasted]

I was b sticking it at first, but I realized learning how to b reversal would be a more worthwhile endeavor, so that I can keep c stick tied to tilts so that I can dair without fast falling. But I did also notice you seem to need forward momentum to really launch yourself back, but I'm still trying to work on zigzagging across the stage from high up.

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

Make sure you continue to push your "movement stick" while you flick the c stick in the opposite position. I priorotize tilts on my c-stick for aerials, as i basicly only do wavebounced pk fires if i approach and use a pk fire, when retreating you gain more ground by simply sh turned around pk fire than by wavebouncing it!

Btw, I've noticed that you have time for a wavebounce pk fire while running off platforms such as battlefield or dreamland. On battlefield you have to be close to frame perfect after running off the platform!

 

[V23]

Hi, just tried the wavebounce with b-sticking in trainning for the 1st time (as i use the stick for aerials) and the bounce is amazing, is there any way to recreate the same one without the stick?

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

Hi, just tried the wavebounce with b-sticking in trainning for the 1st time (as i use the stick for aerials) and the bounce is amazing, is there any way to recreate the same one without the stick?

yes there is! For example: If you are facing right, the input would be PK fire to the left, and immediately after flick the control stick in the opposite direction.

 

[V23]

yes there is! For example: If you are facing right, the input would be PK fire to the left, and immediately after flick the control stick in the opposite direction.

Sec. trying it! will edit in few mins

edit; i think i got it right one time !! is there any way to guarantee it?
and just to be clear

sh to gain forward momentum --> opp direction pk fire --> flick quickly the movement stick to the other side and hold it?

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

[...] sh to gain forward momentum --> opp direction pk fire --> flick quickly the movement stick to the other side and hold it?

yeah thats pretty much it! You might want to practice it in training mode to get the timing down, at first i got a whole lot of PK freeze's and those are punished HARD. Keep at it tho, wavebounced PK fire are great if you want to approach with a PK fire, if you want to gain ground / retreat, a sh reversed pk fire gains more ground!

 

[V23]

yeah thats pretty much it! You might want to practice it in training mode to get the timing down, at first i got a whole lot of PK freeze's and those are punished HARD. Keep at it tho, wavebounced PK fire are great if you want to approach with a PK fire, if you want to gain ground / retreat, a sh reversed pk fire gains more ground!

yeah you were spot on with the PK FREEZE im right now at trainning mode. trying to get the timing.


and yeah!! the sec i tried it with the stick i saw the potential, since if you can spam it with SH you can SH to the enemy and he will be like "is he going to PK FIRE?" if he shields you just grab, and so on. ITS AN AMAZING TOOL to have


edit: ok i checked with slowmotion (why didn't i think about it before?!!?!!) and it works flawlessly, there is also no need to hold the direction stick ^_^

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

great man, wavebouncing Psi magnets can be useful at times aswell, its easier too! just do down b and slide QUICKLY to the left or right, depending on which way you want to reverse to. Make sure to implement zair to your lucas aswell, its amazing man! The PK fire got too much endlag at times!

 

[V23]

great man, wavebouncing Psi magnets can be useful at times aswell, its easier too! just do down b and slide QUICKLY to the left or right, depending on which way you want to reverse to. Make sure to implement zair to your lucas aswell, its amazing man! The PK fire got too much endlag at times!

yeah my style revolves pretty much about the magnet TBH
but i won't lie, i haven't used Zair at all. like 3-4 times per 100 matches

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

yeah my style revolves pretty much about the magnet TBH
but i won't lie, i haven't used Zair at all. like 3-4 times per 100 matches

try it out man, it really opens up approaching Psi magnet is so much fun, i got the sickest comeback today due to a magnet hit, Im gonna throw it in the video thread after i get it recorded in HD - but i got a SD video of it as a placeholder at my youtubechannel magnetgoat!

 

[Bill cipher3]

yeah my style revolves pretty much about the magnet TBH
but i won't lie, i haven't used Zair at all. like 3-4 times per 100 matches

Heh, Zair is awesome as you can use it backwards on the 3ds ( or without C-stick so you won't go forward when you wanna go backwards ) and Is Wbing good when you got it down able to do it pretty much every time on the 3ds? Or is it too hard to do every time

yeah thats pretty much it! You might want to practice it in training mode to get the timing down, at first i got a whole lot of Pk Freeze's and those are punished HARD. Keep at it tho, wavebounced PK fire are great if you want to approach with a PK fire, if you want to gain ground / retreat, a sh reversed pk fire gains more ground!

yeah you were spot on with the PK FREEZE im right now at trainning mode. trying to get the timing.


and yeah!! the sec i tried it with the stick i saw the potential, since if you can spam it with SH you can SH to the enemy and he will be like "is he going to PK FIRE?" if he shields you just grab, and so on. ITS AN AMAZING TOOL to have


edit: ok i checked with slowmotion (why didn't i think about it before?!!?!!) and it works flawlessly, there is also no need to hold the direction stick ^_^

Yep freezing while Trying to wb is stupid.

 

[JosePollo]

I dunno. When it comes to PK Fire I don't think wave-bouncing is important enough to b-stick when tilts are such an integral part of his game. It's not particularly hard to wave-bounce by flicking the stick back and forth, but trying to walk forward, then softly tilt down and A without getting a down smash can be pretty challenging in the heat of battle and not something you can really afford mess up once you get the chance to jablock someone.

It comes down to playstyle, I guess, though it's a lot less deadly to get the wrong tilt than the wrong special if you accidentally hit the wrong direction

 

[MrWhYYZ]

It comes down to playstyle, I guess, though it's a lot less deadly to get the wrong tilt than the wrong special if you accidentally hit the wrong direction

It depends how much PK-fire you are going to throw. I tend to throw inbetween 40-60 per game so it's extremely tiring to not B-stick. I've tried to wavebounce the "right" way, but I've also gotten way too much PK-freeze in the process.

 

[JosePollo]

It depends how much PK-fire you are going to throw. I tend to throw inbetween 40-60 per game so it's extremely tiring to not B-stick. I've tried to wavebounce the "right" way, but I've also gotten way too much PK-freeze in the process.

Ehh. I've gotten used to wave-bouncing with the control stick when I do use it, which isn't often. I prefer to run at my opponent, then run away to bait an approach and throw out the PK Fire to catch them. There's something about giving your back to the opponent that makes them think it's OK to approach.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Ehh. I've gotten used to wave-bouncing with the control stick when I do use it, which isn't often. I prefer to run at my opponent, then run away to bait an approach and throw out the PK Fire to catch them. There's something about giving your back to the opponent that makes them think it's OK to approach.

I prefer doing that against the somewhat faster characters in the cast but the slower ones? I have no problem throwing a continuous wall of PK-fire/PK-freeze and Z-air until they either die of boredom, make a mistake and I can kill them or time-outs. I've had a match on Anther's where I timed out a ganon 2 times. Why should I even risk going close to him if I can throw stuff all day and get away with it?

 

[PKBeam]

it's ridiculously easy to b-stick SHPKF.
just SH forward, wait a moment and flick the c-stick backwards.

if you don't B-stick then there's not much difference in sliding between SHWBPKF and normal SHPKF.

still, the topic is worth researching, if only for a short period of time.

 

[KaptenFullkorn]

it's ridiculously easy to b-stick SHPKF.
just SH forward, wait a moment and flick the c-stick backwards.

if you don't B-stick then there's not much difference in sliding between SHWBPKF and normal SHPKF.

still, the topic is worth researching, if only for a short period of time.

I agreed, its def. worth discussing. I switched to b sticking when i switched from the pro controller to the gamecube controller. It helped with my PK Fire spacing tremendously, but following up on dthrows are harder, especially with bairs. Allso Lucas tilts are essencial for him. Missing inputs on ftilt making it dash attacks can be devastating. Playing with tilts on cstick surely isnt wrong for lucas by any means, but i feel it would benefit him more if his aerials autocanceled.

 

[Lunacywastaken]

I b-stick, and it helps greatly when I wavebounce and b-reverse my PK Fires and PSI Magnets for spacing and mix-up shenanigans. To be honest though, learning how to do stuff like this without the c-stick is probably better, since you can use the c-stick for tilts instead which benefits Lucas much more.