Can we have a serious discussion on Suicide Moves?

[Praxis]

I posted this on Reddit too.


In the Apex 2015 ruleset, section 6C:

SelfDestruct Moves: If a match ends with the successful use of a character’s selfdestruct move, the player that initiated the self destruct move wins the match regardless of what the results screen states.

Selfdestruct moves include only Ganondorf’s SideB, King Dedede’s NeutralB, Wario’s NeutralB, and Kirby’s NeutralB.

This is a pretty standard rule, and with good reason. The reason for this rule, historically, makes complete sense.

History:
--------------

In Melee, a suicide move causes Sudden Death. Sudden Death is unplayable competitively because of randomly spawning bob-ombs; nobody wants a grand finals to be decided at random. So there are various rules to deal with sudden death situations. The decision was made: "If the game ends by suicide (and goes to sudden death), the player who initiated the suicide wins."


In Brawl, the situation is even worse. Sometimes you get sudden death, and other times, the game uses port priority to decide the winner. So if you suicide as player 4, you win, but as player 1, you get sudden death. Because of this, the rule was amended to "If the game ends by suicide, the person who initiated wins, regardless of the game screen". Port priority meant we had to ignore who the game declared the winner.

There was a positive side-benefit in Brawl in that most characters with suicide moves were mid or low tier characters, so rewarding the initiator helped game balance.

But Now:
-------

In Smash 4, however, as of the 1.04 patch, all of the notable suicides (Kirbyside, Dededeside, Bowserside) have been specifically patched so that the game determines the winner without port priority or sudden death. However, the game chooses to make the suicider lose.

Most Smash 4 tournaments carry out the Brawl rule simply by default: ignore the winning screen in a suicide. But, there is no longer a reason to do this. Given that there's no justifiable reason* for ignoring the game's victory screen, it seems to me that we should honor the game's victory; choosing to ignore the game's determination of who wins and loses simply because we like suicide moves seems like a bad. If there are suicide moves that cause sudden death, we should probably award it to the suicidee, to be consistent with the rest of the game.

There is added complexity in that most suicide moves can be broken out of. If a Diddy breaks out of the Kirbyside the instant before Kirby hits the blast zone, and the Kirby says "I won in a suicide, I win!" and the Diddy says "I saw my character's bubble appear before the blast, you died first, I win!" How is that resolved in the current ruleset?

In my opinion: Choosing to ignore the game's declaration of who the winner is a bad thing that was only necessary in Brawl because of Port Priority. If suicide moves don't use port priority, we should use the game's victory screen and have a consistent-with-the-game rule for sudden death (if it happens).

While I personally prefer suicide moves winning, if the game determines that suicide moves lose, then we should honor that.

*It's entirely possible I'm mistaken and don't know every case. Are there any suicide moves in Smash 4 that use port priority to determine the victor?

Discuss.

 

[dragontamer]

In Smash 4, however, as of the 1.04 patch, all of the notable suicides (Kirbyside, Dededeside, Bowserside) have been specifically patched so that the game determines the winner without port priority or sudden death. However, the game chooses to make the suicider lose.

Isn't Ganonside an exception? I could have sworn that Ganonside has Ganondorf win the match.

</not a ganon main>

 

[Madlollipop]

From what Ive noticed there is no sucide moves that the game does not detirmine who wins, therefore I think your point is valid whre the winner is the one winning in the post game screen. I think it could be mentioned that it is more relevant in a 2 stock scenario than a 3 stock ruleset. My two cents is that the post gamescreen should judge the winner to avoid arguments.

 

[Madlollipop]

From what Ive noticed there is no sucide moves that the game does not detirmine who wins, therefore I think your point is valid whre the winner is the one winning in the post game screen. I think it could be mentioned that it is more relevant in a 2 stock scenario than a 3 stock ruleset. My two cents is that the post gamescreen should judge the winner to avoid arguments.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's further muddled by the fact that if, say, Bowser does his suicide move on, say, Villager, with more than a stock each, it's possible for Villager to a) survive and b) make it back to the stage. With this in mind the suicide rule makes very little sense.

I'd support rewording it to "if a suicide move causes the game to go to sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move shall be declared the winner."

 

[Ticker]

It's further muddled by the fact that if, say, Bowser does his suicide move on, say, Villager, with more than a stock each, it's possible for Villager to a) survive and b) make it back to the stage. With this in mind the suicide rule makes very little sense.

I'd support rewording it to "if a suicide move causes the game to go to sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move shall be declared the winner."

But with apex's ruleset, villager would be the winner as he did not die.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But with apex's ruleset, villager would be the winner as he did not die.

As I understand it, Apex rules state that the initiator of a suicide move on last stock wins regardless of the results screen. This is a problem because some characters can survive suicide moves. Furthermore, since the game immediately ends upon either player losing their last stock, there is no opportunity to wait and see if Villager survived or not -- every bottom blast line ever is located well below the camera limits. Who's to say if Villager managed to double jump in time to survive? That turns into he-said she-said contests which are a terrible way to resolve result disputes.

tl;dr in a last stock situation where the game freezes the moment either player dies, it's impossible to tell if the other player would have truly died too.

 

[Ticker]

Honestly I'm of the group where the initiator wins. As a player, you know they have that potential option, so don't get hit by it.

 

[DanGR]

As a player, you know they have that potential option, so don't get hit by it.

As a player, you know they have the option to intercept your suicide move, so don't take the risk.

It goes both ways.

 

[Praxis]

Isn't Ganonside an exception? I could have sworn that Ganonside has Ganondorf win the match.

</not a ganon main>

You are correct.

It's further muddled by the fact that if, say, Bowser does his suicide move on, say, Villager, with more than a stock each, it's possible for Villager to a) survive and b) make it back to the stage. With this in mind the suicide rule makes very little sense.

I'd support rewording it to "if a suicide move causes the game to go to sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move shall be declared the winner."

Yeah, as per OP:

If suicide moves don't use port priority, we should use the game's victory screen and have a consistent-with-the-game rule for sudden death (if it happens).

Use the game's result screen, but in case of sudden death, use a rule.


However, (Heresy alert!) I don't think the initiator should win. While I'd personally prefer the initiator to win, look at this suicide chart (initiator on left):

Character Wii U 3DS
Bowser Draw Loses
Dedede Loses Draw
Ganon Wins Wins
Kirby Loses Draw
Wario Loses Draw


This is especially muddled because Bowser will sometimes lose and sometimes draw (I'm not sure if this is character dependent or stage dependent?) IIRC. If we declare "initiator wins on sudden death", Bowser may either win or lose during suicides! (I've been told this, please correct if I'm wrong.)

If we declare "Initiator loses on sudden death", then the chart looks like this:

Character Wii U3 DS
Bowser Lose Loses
Dedede Loses Lose
Ganon Wins Wins
Kirby Loses Lose
Wario Loses Lose


This is consistent across both games.

Even though I'd prefer the initiator wins, I think this is a much more streamlined and simple ruleset that doesn't require players overriding the game's win screen. Suicides are still useful when you have a lead or are behind in percentage on first stock.


"In case of suicides, the game's victory screen is honored. If the game goes to sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move loses."



This has the major side effect of also removing ambiguity, because if, say, Diddy escaped Kirby's mouth the instant before Kirby died, or Bowser suicides Villager, you can't tell if the opponent would've survived or if it was a true suicide. Honoring the game screen fixes this.

 

[Roukiske]

This is interesting. I never thought of this since the only character I play with a suicide is Ganon and we all know he does win the round.

And I do recall me and a friend playing while they attempted to suicide (I think it was Kirby) with someone who wasn't Ganon and the victim was alive at the end of the game since we physically saw them up-special before the screen went to results. Obviously in this case the suicider lost.

The developers thought about this and modified the results screen to what they believe was balanced. I'd roll with the results screen for now I guess, but maybe that's a little biased because Ganon.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You are correct.




Yeah, as per OP:


Use the game's result screen, but in case of sudden death, use a rule.


However, (Heresy alert!) I don't think the initiator should win. While I'd personally prefer the initiator to win, look at this suicide chart (initiator on left):

Character Wii U 3DS
Bowser Draw Loses
Dedede Loses Draw
Ganon Wins Wins
Kirby Loses Draw
Wario Loses Draw


This is especially muddled because Bowser will sometimes lose and sometimes draw (I'm not sure if this is character dependent or stage dependent?) IIRC. If we declare "initiator wins on sudden death", Bowser may either win or lose during suicides! (I've been told this, please correct if I'm wrong.)

If we declare "Initiator loses on sudden death", then the chart looks like this:

Character Wii U3 DS
Bowser Lose Loses
Dedede Loses Lose
Ganon Wins Wins
Kirby Loses Lose
Wario Loses Lose


This is consistent across both games.

Even though I'd prefer the initiator wins, I think this is a much more streamlined and simple ruleset that doesn't require players overriding the game's win screen. Suicides are still useful when you have a lead or are behind in percentage on first stock.


"In case of suicides, the game's victory screen is honored. If the game goes to sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move loses."



This has the major side effect of also removing ambiguity, because if, say, Diddy escaped Kirby's mouth the instant before Kirby died, or Bowser suicides Villager, you can't tell if the opponent would've survived or if it was a true suicide. Honoring the game screen fixes this.

Fair enough, I admittedly don't know much about suicide moves in general. If making the initiator lose produces a consistent result across all platforms then I'm in.

 

[Auramaniji]

"In case of suicides, the game's victory screen is honored. If the game goes to sudden death, the initiator of the suicide move loses."

This seems like the optimal option, although it may have a bit of randomness because of players escaping right before they hit the blast zone. I really think this might be the right choice.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This seems like the optimal option, although it may have a bit of randomness because of players escaping right before they hit the blast zone. I really think this might be the right choice.

I assume you mean the victim escaping, in which case this rule should be completely consistent.

 

[Auramaniji]

I assume you mean the victim escaping, in which case this rule should be completely consistent.

It should, and yes I was referring the victim escaping.

 

[thehard]

Results screen should determine the winner: it's a wee bit sad to see stuff like Bowsercide not being viable, but it wasn't high-risk to begin with. Plus, it's still useful for closing out a stock in doubles/squads. Are you still able to recover with his high Up-B custom?

Kirby, Dedede, and Wario can all still "pseudocide" effectively so the option isn't totally taken away from them (they have good recoveries). Ganon's suicide puts him in special fall if he misses, and is somewhat slow, so it's the one exception to the rule.

How does the game determine results with grabs like Rob's that can suicide if done on moving platforms?

 

[Praxis]

How does the game determine results with grabs like Rob's that can suicide if done on moving platforms?

I'm not 100% sure but I think it goes to sudden death if memory serves.
EDIT: Nevermind

 

[DarkKiru]

Results screen should determine the winner: it's a wee bit sad to see stuff like Bowsercide not being viable, but it wasn't high-risk to begin with. Plus, it's still useful for closing out a stock in doubles/squads. Are you still able to recover with his high Up-B custom?

Kirby, Dedede, and Wario can all still "pseudocide" effectively so the option isn't totally taken away from them (they have good recoveries). Ganon's suicide puts him in special fall if he misses, and is somewhat slow, so it's the one exception to the rule.

How does the game determine results with grabs like Rob's that can suicide if done on moving platforms?

I've done it with Rob before (albeit with a REALLY weird glitch so I can't confirm if this is how the game normally handles it) but it awards ROB's opponent the victory, ROB loses for suiciding (ROBicide?)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Results screen should determine the winner: it's a wee bit sad to see stuff like Bowsercide not being viable, but it wasn't high-risk to begin with. Plus, it's still useful for closing out a stock in doubles/squads. Are you still able to recover with his high Up-B custom?

Kirby, Dedede, and Wario can all still "pseudocide" effectively so the option isn't totally taken away from them (they have good recoveries). Ganon's suicide puts him in special fall if he misses, and is somewhat slow, so it's the one exception to the rule.

How does the game determine results with grabs like Rob's that can suicide if done on moving platforms?

No, you aren't able to recover with that custom; Bowser dies first, and good recovery moves don't let you come back after having died. That was a really exploitative gimmick in the pre-1.0.4 3ds version that it's very good was patched out.

These moves were insane in Brawl in edge cases (Brawl Ganon either lost or drew depending on his height from the blast zone, not a threshold but instead the remainder when you divided the total height he was from the bottom by how far he moved per frame!), and I doubt anyone has thorough understanding of these mechanics in the new game especially since they're known to vary between patch versions. My view is this. Currently we don't know if there's a problem so we shouldn't have a rule. The results screen always rules. If sudden death happens, whichever player had the lower damage wins just like any other sudden death situation (not just timeouts but coincidental same frame deaths can invoke sudden death, super rare but possible). It should come up very, very rarely. If we find some game behavior that makes this default rule bad, we should write rules to fix it... but as of now we don't have any documented behavior to suggest this would be a problem.

 

[Praxis]

If sudden death happens, whichever player had the lower damage wins just like any other sudden death situation (not just timeouts but coincidental same frame deaths can invoke sudden death, super rare but possible). It should come up very, very rarely.

100% agree with you except for this bit. I think "initiator loses on sudden death" is much more consistent between versions of the game and fixes the inconsistency in some of the suicides.

 

[ぱみゅ]

FYI, a lot of Brawl's late life tournaments had the rule of always going what the Results Screen was showing.
If Sudden Death, they'd do a tie-breaker.

 

[Praxis]

FYI, a lot of Brawl's late life tournaments had the rule of always going what the Results Screen was showing.
If Sudden Death, they'd do a tie-breaker.

This seems terrible for Brawl, considering the randomness of some (Ganondorf flame choke) and port priority of others (Bowser), but better in Smash 4. (Except a one stock tiebreaker is a half a game in Smash 4.)

 

[thehard]

No, you aren't able to recover with that custom; Bowser dies first, and good recovery moves don't let you come back after having died.

Mm, I thought maybe there was a brief period where Bowser wasn't falling...

 

[ぱみゅ]

This seems terrible for Brawl, considering the randomness of some (Ganondorf flame choke) and port priority of others (Bowser), but better in Smash 4. (Except a one stock tiebreaker is a half a game in Smash 4.)

I agree, but I guess It was for the sake of simplicity.
Most TO's didn't bother to monitor matches or results, just sat somewhere waiting for players to report their results.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

100% agree with you except for this bit. I think "initiator loses on sudden death" is much more consistent between versions of the game and fixes the inconsistency in some of the suicides.

I'm not really convinced there are inconsistent suicides. Do you have any research into them on hand? At least a data set of some cases where a suicide does one thing in one case and another thing in another case so we can narrow down which variable is the cause? I'm just inclined to assume the game mechanics aren't dumb and don't need a rule in lieu of evidence otherwise; using the percent tiebreaker isn't because that's the best thing to do but because the rules shouldn't refer to suicide moves at all (it's just how sudden deaths are always covered regardless of the reason the sudden death happened).

 

[shapular]

I agree with this. If the game says that the person who used the suicide move is the loser, then I have no right as a competitor to question that. I'd need a very strong justification to say that the results screen should be ignored.

Fyi, if Kirby walks into a walkoff with an opponent inhaled on last stock, it goes to sudden death. I don't know if the same applies to DDD. And there are stages where Bowsercide results in sudden death. There still needs to be some kind of rule to cover those ambiguous cases, and any possible unexpected ones.

 

[Raijinken]

One can hope that these'll be patched in the future to simply have consistent results. Be that as it may, I support going by the results screen, as much as I love victory by suicide.

I side with the results screen largely because Dedede and Kirbycide are escapable below the blast line. Ganondorf and Bowser don't seem to have that issue.

 

[Praxis]

I'm not really convinced there are inconsistent suicides. Do you have any research into them on hand? At least a data set of some cases where a suicide does one thing in one case and another thing in another case so we can narrow down which variable is the cause? I'm just inclined to assume the game mechanics aren't dumb and don't need a rule in lieu of evidence otherwise; using the percent tiebreaker isn't because that's the best thing to do but because the rules shouldn't refer to suicide moves at all (it's just how sudden deaths are always covered regardless of the reason the sudden death happened).

I don't actually. I've just been told this (I've barely played any Bowser, so no firsthand experience). I suppose assuming what a couple people told me is true might not be a great idea. That said, inconsistency was true of several characters in Brawl (like the earlier Ganondorf flame choke example).

Another issue with using percent as a tiebreaker is the case of suicides you may not be able to read your percentage from the bottom- the moment the characters die it disappears, yes? If the players miss it there might be questions.

 

[Praxis]

I'm not really convinced there are inconsistent suicides. Do you have any research into them on hand? At least a data set of some cases where a suicide does one thing in one case and another thing in another case so we can narrow down which variable is the cause? I'm just inclined to assume the game mechanics aren't dumb and don't need a rule in lieu of evidence otherwise; using the percent tiebreaker isn't because that's the best thing to do but because the rules shouldn't refer to suicide moves at all (it's just how sudden deaths are always covered regardless of the reason the sudden death happened).

Okay, someone tested for me.
Link:
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...discussion_on_suicide_moves/cngxgl6?context=3


Basically, Bowser's suicide will either be a loss or a sudden death DEPENDING ON THE STAGE.

0.o

 

[ATH_]

I never found these kinds of tricks to be a big deal. Aw, you got side-b'd by a Ganon at only 10%??? Your fault buddy, you didn't keep his options in mind enough.

I personally agree with the way sudden deaths are handled, and I do like this rule for Apex, however, I can also agree with the reasoning why the suicider should lose. It's not a cheap trick, it's just someone using their arsenal in a way they see fit. However, I do not like the fact that sometimes there's a break in the consistency, such as Bowser not ALWAYS dying first depending on the stage.

I think people need to just accept that this topic will always bounce from the Childish yet Logical point of view to the Competitive yet not exactly ideal point of view. They both work, and we'll never reach a conclusion that more than 70% of the Smashers agree with. That is, unless there's a third option that arises.

 

[deepseadiva]

God this game made everything so confusing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The game didn't. It was the community's fault.

 

[Uniit]

I do approuve the rule for "inhale" suicide moves (kirby de3 and wario), since they can be escaped by smashing buttons. But for others, ie bowsercide, ganoncide or maybe ROBicide, i think they should win by doing so. ROB is highly situationnal, but cleverly grab on smashville platform and doing suicide should be rewarding. Ganon wins, so i'm fine with that, but bowser should really be reconsidered.

Disclaimers : not a bowser player.
We need to take place of bowser's players. With his suicide move resulting in a lose for him, you actually get punished quite hard because you landed a move. The lesser your damages, the more control you have, so unless being Bsided off stage, you shouldn't die before significant percentages.

I do understand that the game say this or that, and big N actually patched this intentionnally, but making the result of landing a move worst that missing it is just bad, imo.

 

[Altea77]

I havent seen anyone mention DK's forward grab suicide that's been in since melee or ZSS down b suicide (if you hit someone on the way down, you take them with you). Are they not considered suicides? And if they are, what is the data on those?

 

[Judo777]

This seems terrible for Brawl, considering the randomness of some (Ganondorf flame choke) and port priority of others (Bowser), but better in Smash 4. (Except a one stock tiebreaker is a half a game in Smash 4.)

I'm pretty sure in Brawl Bowser always won if he had lower port, and always drew if he had higher port.
Ganon always drew if he had lower port and lost if he had higher port.
And I think D3 and Kirby always won. And Wario always lost. Pretty sure it worked like that.

Also I'm pretty mad about the bowser change tbh. It is important (from a balance perspective) to have the initiator win (at least for bowser) due to both players having control. Now that Bowser always loses and the other player can recover it basically has become "bowser can't side B at all if hes at 80% deficit" because I'll just suicide him and recover. Btw ALOT of characters can survive bowsercide and make it back.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm fine with honouring the results screen, the only thing I don't quite understand is why the initiator loses in the case of sudden death. It seems to have something to do with differences between 3DS and Wii U, but could someone explain that a little better?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm fine with honouring the results screen, the only thing I don't quite understand is why the initiator loses in the case of sudden death. It seems to have something to do with differences between 3DS and Wii U, but could someone explain that a little better?

With the exception of Ganondorf (who always wins according to the results screen), a suicide move results in either a loss for the initiator or sudden death...depending on the stage and which version of the game you're on. It's more consistent to hand the initiator the loss in the event of sudden death and go by the results screen in all cases otherwise.

Praxis linked a Reddit post further up with some data.

 

[icraq]

all this talk about bowser when the rules are very specific that this rule does not apply to bowser or ROB or anyone else except ganon, wario, kirby and ddd. why it mentions ganon specifically baffles me though, he always wins, i've never seen a ganoncide go to SD or lose for ganon in smash 4.

it should really be a question of 'is there enough time to see the character bubble' which is probably yes, the game slows down for a second before it ends

i really don't see the problem here, if there's a dispute mid tournament you can simply record the match and grab a TO. odds are, there wont ever be a dispute.

i'm kinda confused why this rule exists, though. i get the precedent side of it, but it seems like an archaic rule by this point. i get the feeling that since ganon is mentioned in the exceptions that the person who wrote it lacked a full understanding of how suicide moves work in smash 4, but i could be wrong. maybe i'm the one lacking the understanding.

 

[BSP]

I like the sound of the initiator losing if it goes to sudden death. I was never a fan of ignoring the results screen because we said so.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

all this talk about bowser when the rules are very specific that this rule does not apply to bowser or ROB or anyone else except ganon, wario, kirby and ddd. why it mentions ganon specifically baffles me though, he always wins, i've never seen a ganoncide go to SD or lose for ganon in smash 4.

Then let's rephrase: since Ganondorf is literally the only character who wins upon using a suicide move and he consistently wins when he suicides, it makes more sense to follow the results screen and, in the event of sudden death due to suicide move, consider the initiator to have lost.