Can we have a rule against animated deaths?

[Gidy]

This makes me mad just watching it because FOW won. Often times I would see Nana Fsmash the opponent in past games while Popo was in the death animation too, which I thought was screwed as well.

So, does anyone else think there should be a rule against this?

 

[AnchorTea]

Yes.

If an animated death is a guaranteed death, then it should be treated like a death when it happens.

I never understood this rule. Ever.

Edit: No. I'm not saying this because a Villager player got backstabbed by this rule, I'm saying this because it's common sense.

2nd Edit: This is my opinion though. I'm not saying we have to, but I think we should.

 

[Shaya]

No.

This really seeps into "scrub ruling" territory in every way.
We allow the game to decide the winner for us. That's just how it is.

Fow deserves to be upset, but a flipcoin situation went against him.
Seeing as you've made a similar cry for a scrub ruling before, you don't need to be reminded about all the rest of the details, nor do you need to remind me of your emotional pull for it.

Over the years many matches has been decided by the game's Star KOs. Including myself, for and against me. The player getting hit by the PKT2 could've DI'd it in such a way that they were knocked into the side blast zones, not allowing this to happen, but instead they DI'd it upwards, giving them that 50/50 (as it's more than 1 minute left on the timer). Voila "outplayed".

 

[Pyr]

Results screen > all.

 

[AnchorTea]

This is the suicide clause situation all over again.

Either the game decides who wins, or us.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I'm going to have to disagree on this one as well, what if this situation happens and nobody saw it happen, then the two players argued over who won, it'd be chaos. The game deciding who wins is the best choice.

At least with the suicide clause we can be like "Okay so the game ended with a Bowserside, so Bowser loses." With this we'd have to be like "Okay so did the person off the top actually go into star KO animation yet? I wasn't watching so I don't know who actually died first, but the game says this guy wins so like.... yeah."

This is a really grey area thats trying to be covered here.

 

[1FC0]

We could also make more rules like this.

Like:

- A rule that if you get hit by Sing and wake up before Jiggs is ready with Sing then you have to wait and give Jiggs a free attack on you so that Jiggs does not get punished for hitting a hard to hit move.
- We also could ban Judge , Green Missle, and Peach Bv because they are random.
- Also we could make a rule that if you get hit with Murder or Falcon Punch then you must SD because those moves could use a buff.
- When you Flying Slam someone and you lose because you Bowsercide you actually win to buff Flying Slam and to protect the Bowser from making mistakes.
- When you activate your counter but still miss then you should be allowed to get a free attack on the opponent because a counter is normally a hard read so it should always be rewarded.

 

[AnchorTea]

- We also could ban Judge , Green Missle, and Peach Bv because they are random.

Oh please no. If that is decided then Villager's Uair and Dair will have to be banned since they are based on chance. It would make Villager a low tier character.

 

[1FC0]

And maybe R.O.B.'s Dtilt, since I think that the tripping on it might be random.

 

[Gidy]

I'm going to have to disagree on this one as well, what if this situation happens and nobody saw it happen, then the two players argued over who won, it'd be chaos. The game deciding who wins is the best choice.

At least with the suicide clause we can be like "Okay so the game ended with a Bowserside, so Bowser loses." With this we'd have to be like "Okay so did the person off the top actually go into star KO animation yet? I wasn't watching so I don't know who actually died first, but the game says this guy wins so like.... yeah."

This is a really grey area thats trying to be covered here.

I mean, in that case you could also report false game winnings if they were not seen as well, if people want to be scum bags.

 

[AnchorTea]

And maybe R.O.B.'s Dtilt, since I think that the tripping on it might be random.

Most moves have a chance to trip the opponent.

 

[Gidy]

We could also make more rules like this.

Like:

- A rule that if you get hit by Sing and wake up before Jiggs is ready with Sing then you have to wait and give Jiggs a free attack on you so that Jiggs does not get punished for hitting a hard to hit move.
- We also could ban Judge , Green Missle, and Peach Bv because they are random.
- Also we could make a rule that if you get hit with Murder or Falcon Punch then you must SD because those moves could use a buff.
- When you Flying Slam someone and you lose because you Bowsercide you actually win to buff Flying Slam and to protect the Bowser from making mistakes.
- When you activate your counter but still miss then you should be allowed to get a free attack on the opponent because a counter is normally a hard read so it should always be rewarded.

The difference is is that while those are random, Star KOs aren't. The death is going to happen, but it just so happens that you died first, making it not random in the first place. All those are applicable in the match and force adaption, while Star KOs, there isn't anything you can do about it.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I mean, in that case you could also report false game winnings if they were not seen as well, if people want to be scum bags.

Not quite the same, what i meant by nobody watching is nobody is paying full attention, of course if somebody wins and they appear on the result screen, its going to be hard to convince anyone you won when they saw the opponents character win. In this case however, what happens if its a split second moment where one character goes flying off the top and the other dies on the bottom? How can you tell who won? Even people watching will have a hard time figuring out because of how fast it all happens. Where do you draw the line?

Also, Star KO's are random now because in Smash 4 you have the chance of instantly dieing off of the top or getting a screen KO. For almost 20 years we've been playing this game where it takes longer to die off the top, so we should take into consideration for that and understand that is simply part of the rules. Don't expect to win if you can't survive longer than the Star KO animation.

 

[Pyr]

The difference is is that while those are random, Star KOs aren't. The death is going to happen, but it just so happens that you died first, making it not random in the first place. All those are applicable in the match and force adaption, while Star KOs, there isn't anything you can do about it.

You could try not dying 3 seconds after a star KO is initiated. It also isn't all that random for star KOs.

Hell, it's a brilliant move on the Diddy's part: Had he not got hit, the up-B would have had enough distance to reach back to the stage. Had Ness played it any other way, he's of been gimped. Ness was going to lose, and Diddy was going to get Star-KO'd unless he DI'd towards the right blastzone.

 

[AnchorTea]

You could try not dying 3 seconds after a star KO is initiated. It also isn't all that random for star KOs.

Hell, it's a brilliant move on the Diddy's part: Had he not got hit, the up-B would have had enough distance to reach back to the stage. Had Ness played it any other way, he's of been gimped. Ness was going to lose, and Diddy was going to get Star-KO'd unless he DI'd towards the right blastzone.

I think that video was sheer adrenaline in Ness's part.

 

[LancerStaff]

I remember hearing that your launch speed determines what KO you get, but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Inger]

Been to GR Smash recently, I see.

 

[Nabbitnator]

How come you don't lose as soon as you cross the boundary during an all star K.O.?

 

[Shaya]

How come you don't lose as soon as you cross the boundary during an all star K.O.?

Think of as cinematic something or rather.
In stamina mode when you hit someone to 0 health, there's that big lag modifier added to give it that impact.

SF has all sorts.
The super comes out, and the audience gets to guess whether or not the opposing player was already doing something that would beat it, then we get to see the result.

It isn't exactly the grandest thing for pure skill-based competition, but it's as it is.

 

[Born in 1839...]

omg!!! this is teh best rule, ever made! This rule needs to be made ASAP! We gotta get on that!!!

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Player gets launched off the top, and is currently in the star KO animation. Has the game removed their stock yet? No.

Then the twinkle happens. Has the game removed their stock yet? Yes.

Let the game decide, because if we try to decide this kind of stuff for ourselves it starts to get arbitrary. Why should a stock be considered lost when they pass the blast zone, and not when the game removes that stock?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Has anyone noticed in this game that, when Rosalina is getting star KO'd with Luma still alive, Luma will attempt to follow her? He'll trace along her animation as she spins out in the background. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem possible to command Luma to do a last minute desperation attack during this time; being star KO'd apparently counts as Rosalina being in hitstun.

But yeah, as everyone else said, that's just how the game is, and it's dangerous territory to argue against it. I lost a very close tournament game in a late Brawl tournament to a star KO time-out. It was mutual last stock with my G&W at 120%ish and my opponent's Diddy at 80%ish. At the very last moment I made the hardest of the hard reads and landed an up smash that sent him over the top blast zone (and at that percent near center stage, it was G&W's only move other than a lucky #9 that could have killed; I had no option to kill off the side). He was near the end of his star KO animation when the announcer called TIME. Had I gotten a screen splat, I would have won outright, but that didn't happen. Instead, the game went to sudden death, and by tournament rules since I was losing by percent at the time-out I lost the game and thus the set. I was very disappointed at losing the game after making that read, but I understood because it is the only reasonable way the rule can be. If it happens to you, you can be disappointed in the result, enjoy having what will always be a great smash story, and carry on.

 

[Raijinken]

Consistency is key. While it's kinda lame to lose because you fall first (whether from PKT2 or something else during a star/screen KO), I think we should go by the victory screen regardless. That includes the Suicide Clause, too. No exceptions (much as I hate it for Bowser, since he didn't really deserve the Flying Slam nerf).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Consistency is key. While it's kinda lame to lose because you fall first (whether from PKT2 or something else during a star/screen KO), I think we should go by the victory screen regardless. That includes the Suicide Clause, too. No exceptions (much as I hate it for Bowser, since he didn't really deserve the Flying Slam nerf).

The nerf was overly severe but some nerf was needed. Before, Bowser could survive the Flying Slam "Bowsercide" and, even worse, actually recover from most stage positions if he brought the otherwise awful Flying Fortress custom up special. That dynamic wouldn't have been broken most likely, but it would have been really stupid and would have made Bowser a lame, gimmicky character (it wasn't widely known before the Wii U version came out which is why you so seldom saw it abused in the early 3DS metagame; a few Bowsers figured it out pretty shortly before the patch and didn't have time to abuse it enough to get noticed). For the health of the game, it's relatively superior for his Flying Slam to have disadvantageous mechanics for Bowser.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This is the suicide clause situation all over again.

Either the game decides who wins, or us.

Yeah, how is this even debatable? The game decides. If you win, you win.

I mean, just to be clear, what are we arguing here? That once you hit that upper blastzone, you're guaranteed to die? Well, yeah. You know who else was guaranteed to die in that video? FOW. In fact, he was guaranteed to die before Mew2King was guaranteed to die, because he was below the ledge in specialfall. That's dead.

But of course, that's irrelevant, because this rule is bad. The game decides who wins. Period. There's a little randomness in star KOs, but that's just how things are, and we're kinda stuck with it. If you die before your opponent does, you lost. So what if your opponent was guaranteed to die? For some reason, you still managed to die with no opponent on the screen.

 

[1FC0]

The nerf was overly severe but some nerf was needed. Before, Bowser could survive the Flying Slam "Bowsercide" and, even worse, actually recover from most stage positions if he brought the otherwise awful Flying Fortress custom up special. That dynamic wouldn't have been broken most likely, but it would have been really stupid and would have made Bowser a lame, gimmicky character (it wasn't widely known before the Wii U version came out which is why you so seldom saw it abused in the early 3DS metagame; a few Bowsers figured it out pretty shortly before the patch and didn't have time to abuse it enough to get noticed). For the health of the game, it's relatively superior for his Flying Slam to have disadvantageous mechanics for Bowser.

At least this cannot happen anymore in Smash 4.

 

[Timbers]

Consistency is key.

this is funny to me because random vertical death animations are anything but consistent lol

but yeah @ OP, as everyone else has stated, we have the best possible rule in play to deal with these instances. i hate the randomized death animations and think it's a terrible feature (particular screen splat in doubles where you can't see ANYTHING), but if I hated it that much then I wouldn't play this game. there's simply no better way to regulate this.

 

[Judo777]

No the worst is when thy hit the front of the screen. 2 important things about that, one is is significantly faster than star koing. I was at a tournament where the exact same thing happened as fow, only the player initiating it wasn't forced into the situation like FOW was (meaning this guy made a bad play) because he was a lower percent, and essentially suicided to gain a kill off the top (the only trajectory for his move) but he obviously would have died before the star KO finished. But instead the other player hit the front of the screen and died way earlier and the other player won. It was pretty dumb.

Also the other dumb thing is when they block the screen, i have been killed so many times in doubles, from someone dying off the top and blocking the screen only to have another player hit you at the same time.

This is unrelated tho

 

[1FC0]

No the worst is when thy hit the front of the screen. 2 important things about that, one is is significantly faster than star koing. I was at a tournament where the exact same thing happened as fow, only the player initiating it wasn't forced into the situation like FOW was (meaning this guy made a bad play) because he was a lower percent, and essentially suicided to gain a kill off the top (the only trajectory for his move) but he obviously would have died before the star KO finished. But instead the other player hit the front of the screen and died way earlier and the other player won. It was pretty dumb.

Also the other dumb thing is when they block the screen, i have been killed so many times in doubles, from someone dying off the top and blocking the screen only to have another player hit you at the same time.

This is unrelated tho

Screen KO's and star KO's now take equal time.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Just stop suicide taunting when you defeat your opponent via Star KO.

 

[Judo777]

Screen KO's and star KO's now take equal time.

oh sweet. did not know, thats a really good fix IMO.

still the screen getting blocked is dumb lol even in singles, im not a fan of not being able to see when i recover.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah, getting half the screen obscured on screensplat is a pain but thankfully it's never for more than a second and unless you're Ness you don't really need to see what you're doing to recover against an empty stage.

 

[Raijinken]

this is funny to me because random vertical death animations are anything but consistent lol

but yeah @ OP, as everyone else has stated, we have the best possible rule in play to deal with these instances. i hate the randomized death animations and think it's a terrible feature (particular screen splat in doubles where you can't see ANYTHING), but if I hated it that much then I wouldn't play this game. there's simply no better way to regulate this.

Well, let me rephrase. Consistency within our rulesets is key. Nothing we can do about Sakurai having his fun.

 

[digiholic]

We allow the game to decide the winner for us. That's just how it is.

Results screen > all.

Unless the game goes to time or someone uses a suicide move.

We're already overriding what the game says in some cases, why not all?

 

[LancerStaff]

We're already overriding what the game says in some cases, why not all?

Because that's going deep into scrub territory to change something minor. We don't fifty-two rules clogging up tournaments, and we don't need arbitrary rules creating confusion when they're inevitably not upheld at every tournament.

 

[1FC0]

Unless the game goes to time or someone uses a suicide move.

We're already overriding what the game says in some cases, why not all?

Well the SD clause is a bad example to use since the SD clause is bad itself. Just because we have one bad rule does not mean we need more bad rules. It means that we need to get rid of that one bad rule that we have.

But I am not sure how the game differentiates between a star KO or a blast KO on top of the screen, if it is not random though then I see no reason to not follow the games result screen. In the case of the OPs vid Ness could have known that he would lose this if the star KO was not random. In that case he should have avoided this situation and if he could not then he just did not play good enough.

And even if it is random then I still think that this does not happen often enough to warrant a special rule. Haxy moves like Judge and Gtreen Missle are not banned either.

 

[thehard]

Yeah, getting half the screen obscured on screensplat is a pain but thankfully it's never for more than a second and unless you're Ness you don't really need to see what you're doing to recover against an empty stage.

I'm pretty sure good Ness players have already memorized the start-up and speed of his Up-B.

Conversely, I might be able to play him if the camera panned out for those deep recoveries...

It follows Duck Hunt's can for god's sake!

 

[Judo777]

Yeah, getting half the screen obscured on screensplat is a pain but thankfully it's never for more than a second and unless you're Ness you don't really need to see what you're doing to recover against an empty stage.

Unless you are aiming for tricky moving lylat ledge lol but for the most part you are right.

 

[New_Dumal]

I understand why some people would prefer a rule against star k.o death lag but....
The world isn't fair.I'm with results screen.

If you were in a situation where you must kill yourself to kill your enemy, you should need some luck.
And as stated, I like the strategy in DI'ing up in this specific position to try a star k.o.

 

[TechMoogle]

Honestly, the time taken by the game to confirm a death from the upper blast line due to star and screen knock-out animations is simply arbitrary. I find it difficult to defend their existence beyond aesthetics and status as a tradition in the series. Once a player has gone past any of the blast lines it should be immediately counted as a death. There is no compelling argument against this.

However, I will admit that this change wouldn’t be much of an improvement to the game. There is no reason to be hyperbolic here; matches are rarely close enough to warrant this kind of change in mechanics. If it existed as a rule outside the game then it would simply be another arbitrary method of determining the victor and I can easily foresee various problems arising from trying to enforce it.

The outcome of a match is determined by a countless number of varying factors. It isn’t as important to look at the climatic blow that sends a player hurtling beyond the blast line as it is how they got in that situation to begin with. Don’t get too caught up in the small details of what could have happened if things in a single moment were different and try and look at everything as whole. Some matches are incredibly close and it’s hard to truly say which player deserved to win. However, the game will always determine a winner. Draws simply do not happen. In the end it’s important to keep in mind that a loss is not always a sign of inferiority. The odds won’t always be favorable. It’s best to just respect it as a game well-played and keep trying.