Pistallion
Smash Cadet
With the tech skill of Foxes improving so much, can a true Marth exist at the highest level of play? It seems as though even Mew2King plays more Shiek than Marth when the big money is on the line
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I would not be certain of that.but I think that Hax will accomplish this level of play with Captain Falcon
can you please elaborate on thatvery easily.
marth is a much easier character than his players make him out to be.
can you please elaborate on that
is this like the "fox is the best character but everyone is just bad" mentality (I'm not being facetious)?
You wanna play M2K's or PPu's or Mangos marth and say that?No. Nobody will ever win only as marth even m2k admits it. The reason ken was good was because the game was new, now that people know how to play, marth sucks. Marth will probably be demoted to pichu-tier the way things are going, he just has nothing going for him.
if im not mistaken PP was beating hbox's puff with marth in some seriouslies at Zenith 2011...they were supposed to do a MM from what i remember at that tournament, but it just didn't happen. (probably in part cause hbox wasn't feeling it after playing pp's marth in those casual sets)Yes. M2K has beaten both PP's Falco and Mango's Fox/Falco with Marth before. PP took a set off of Armada's Peach with his Marth. PP's taken a set off of M2K's Sheik with his Marth. The only absolute top level matchup we haven't recently seen a Marth win is against Hungrybox, but PPU came reasonably close , and I imagine PP might do it someday if Hbox murders the Falco hard enough game 1.
So yeah, Marth can definitely still win at the highest level. If your argument is that a solo Marth main doesn't exist right now at highest level… well, Hbox is the only member of the top 5 that doesn't carry a secondary, and PPU is as high as you get without actually breaking into the "top level".
PPU and axe played in the early rounds of Bracket Pools at NCR...i don't think the set was recorded unfortunately but PPU beat Axe 2-0 both games on BF if I remember correctly. Also Marth can beat jiggs...pivots are important for setting up kills at mid- reasonably high percents(see Austin Arc's pivot>fsmash/dtilt/utilt/sheild pivot grabs vid)I keep hearing PPU beat Axe's Pikachu, but I can never find the video.
check out PP vs Hbox TO9's PM sets. PP went all Marth and kinda junked him some games, he won the set lolif im not mistaken PP was beating hbox's puff with marth in some seriouslies at Zenith 2011...they were supposed to do a MM from what i remember at that tournament, but it just didn't happen. (probably in part cause hbox wasn't feeling it after playing pp's marth in those casual sets)
PP will probably beat hbox with marth soon enough in a tournament set if the opportunity presents itself...i could also see PPU and Austin ARC beating hbox's puff. I'd like to say m2k could too if he tried but he makes too many errors/impatience in the neutral game under duress.
I see sort of two main modes of thinking about how to approach Smash. One scheme (I think everyone has at first) is the a person should be unpredictable. Often times I see people bringing up Mango for this aspect. However, I am not certain if he is being unpredictable in a reckless way or being unpredictable in a safe way. What I mean is mixing-up your approach. For example, is it good to use risky methods such as throwing in a WD fsmash or counter every so often.I feel like an all-Marth player could be super scary. He is at least dangerous CP material in this ruleset....just today KDJ used him to secure a CP advantage and win a match vs M2K's Fox on YS!
I don't see the character being held back by anything except the innovation of the players, which could cause problems for him without a dedicated, high-achieving player. With our player base growing, the odds of that player appearing increase =)
I hope to do my own contribution to Marth as well. I feel I have more to do with him before I am satisfied. Some zoning and edgeguarding and juggling tricks really need to be developed....
People are not successful for being unnecessarily risky. Even high-risk high reward plays often have a surprisingly lower risk when associated with surrounding plays. This means that the WD Fsmash or Counter can be useful, but only within the context of what has happened in the metagame and how the player has conditioned the other, to be quite vague. Breaking down what is happening to Marth and for Marth at every interaction is exhaustive but a good way to learn when some plays like what you mentioned can be useful. When confused about why something worked, I suggest rewatching the entire segment of video that exists before that one particular moment(of course this doesn't fully explain metagame influences, but it's a good start.)I see sort of two main modes of thinking about how to approach Smash. One scheme (I think everyone has at first) is the a person should be unpredictable. Often times I see people bringing up Mango for this aspect. However, I am not certain if he is being unpredictable in a reckless way or being unpredictable in a safe way. What I mean is mixing-up your approach. For example, is it good to use risky methods such as throwing in a WD fsmash or counter every so often.
The alternative node of thinking from what I have seen is to stick with safe strategies. For example, WD Fsmash while your opponent is in neutral is a bad idea. Actually, Marth has virtually no safe committing actions (as I can tell) against an opponent in neutral. Dtilt is pretty much his only move to fit this description. However, I think most characters in this game do not have relatively safe committing moves against someone in neutral.
Either way, with these two nodes of thought in mind I am not sure the sort of innovation you are referring too. Innovation could potentially be completely unpredictable in all aspects against a neutral opponent. Or maybe innovation is being clever about how to apply your safe strategies.
Second thoughts: Maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way. As often in life the moderation between two extremes is usually the best path to follow. So, perhaps its best to stick with safe strategies, but deviation of a marth player comes from looking for methods outside of the standard. For example, Dtilt seems the only safe committal move against people, however, if your opponent against the ledge, then SH Nair and other moves becomes viable moves to use which are safe. If you get a hit, great. If your opponent shields, you push them off the ledge. If they spot dodge/roll I believe you have enough time to escape back toward center stage. Depends upon the timing of there move compared to you.
In the end, I do not know.... yet. I agree Marth solo should be completely viable to compete with the upper echelon. He doens't have his guaranteed combos as well as other characters too, but he makes up for it with that wall of disjoint against your way of getting back to the stage. Plus, I believe he has the means to get a hit which starts his way of ending your stock. The only draw back it feels is this glass cannon feeling. If I get hit once, Marth seems to just perish.