Calling all Melee players for SSB4

[Jallis370]

This is about SSB4, but I think this belongs here, cause this is for you Melee guys.

Yes, Brawl players are all over the new game and they are doing a great job of analysing the game mechanics, but I believe Brawl players in general focus too much on what is within the game limitatons.
As I see it, Melee players look more outside the box to find ways to make new techniques not dictated by the makers of the game. Brawl was a prison compared to Melee in this way and it seems like only the ones who are happy to play within the ruleset look forward to SSB4 because of this, which excludes most hard-knuckled Melee wackos. But I say we need you maniacs now, for the new game. What say you? Gonna pick SSB4 apart to make sure there either aren't any way of making it better (without hacking it ofcourse), or are you too happy with Melee and got no patience left for anything new?

My Melee friends aren't even looking at SSB4... I want them in, at least until we got clear evidence that there are no ways to speed up the mechanics and so forth. That's why I'm asking here.

EDIT: I'm not saying this should be Melee 2, just that we should max the game out, just like Melee got maxed. Many Melee players nowadays seem to give up on this idea too early, but it takes time an dedication.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

I tried
the game just doesn't reward offensive play; it's in the game's mechanics
it's best to just give up on ever thinking a true melee sequel will exist

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

I tried
the game just doesn't reward offensive play; it's in the game's mechanics
it's best to just give up on ever thinking a true melee sequel will exist

I don't want this game to be Melee 2, I want this game to be its own game, with its own metagame and its own mechanics.
Also, the game has been out for 2 weeks dude, and that's if you got the Japanese version. I seriously doubt that you could have fully explored the game in that time.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

I don't want this game to be Melee 2, I want this game to be its own game, with its own metagame and its own mechanics.
Also, the game has been out for 2 weeks dude, and that's if you got the Japanese version. I seriously doubt that you could have fully explored the game in that time.

it's evident that the game's mechanic is greatly in favor of that in brawl. This implies that it is primarily a defensive game.
Putting that into consideration, we know that aerial moves in this game do in fact have less landing-lag, but does that mean anything if that option is easily punished by both lack of hitstun and 0 shield stun. Based on what I've experienced, the game's metagame revolves around jabs, tilts, grab 2-hit combos(usually d-throw into something), and, most of all, Out-of-Shield options
it's true that the game is slightly faster than Brawl, nothing of significance though-- to me atleast.
This is just my opinion; take it subjectively.
The Smash community is so diverse because each iteration of smash is different than the other, that I can understand. But, in all honesty, Smash 4 just looks like what brawl should have been, in other words, Brawl 2.0
but hey im just another "melee ***" so everything I say subject to hatred

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

it's evident that the game's mechanic is greatly in favor of that in brawl. This implies that it is primarily a defensive game.
Putting that into consideration, we know that aerial moves in this game do in fact have less landing-lag, but does that mean anything if that option is easily punished by both lack of hitstun and 0 shield stun. Based on what I've experienced, the game's metagame revolves around jabs, tilts, grab 2-hit combos(usually d-throw into something), and, most of all, Out-of-Shield options
it's true that the game is slightly faster than Brawl, nothing of significance though-- to me atleast.
This is just my opinion; take it subjectively.
The Smash community is so diverse because each iteration of smash is different than the other, that I can understand. But, in all honesty, Smash 4 just looks like what brawl should have been, in other words, Brawl 2.0
but hey im just another "melee ***" so everything I say subject to hatred

While the game does seem to be defensively oriented, I also think that there seems to be room for offensive play. Characters like Sheik show this potential, and offensive off-stage play seems extremely potent.
What I'm saying is that this game is still young -- too young to judge it properly.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Yes the game is still young. This doesn't mean we don't know the current dominant style of play. Until something mad broken gets found out the game isn't fun from a melee perspective.

This is not to say it won't get fun when someone finds the cool tech but a lot of melee players remember brawl and leave this discovery to other people.

As for myself, I stepped into the smash scene way past brawls release and originally intended to play every iteration. I dropped brawl pretty soon but didn't feel betrayed by it or anything. I'll register for a wii u tourney to form my opinion but based on what people find it prolly won't keep me long.

 

[EPsilon933]

Melee players don't like anything that isn't Melee. They can't even like other games in their favorite game's series, even when they're modded to be more (competitively) fun

Melee is the best and only thing that ever exists to them

 

[MookieRah]

As I see it, Melee players look more outside the box to find ways to make new techniques not dictated by the makers of the game. Brawl was a prison compared to Melee in this way and it seems like only the ones who are happy to play within the ruleset look forward to SSB4 because of this, which excludes most hard-knuckled Melee wackos.

There were plenty of things that were actually discovered by Brawl players, and to say Brawl players aren't capable of thinking outside the box is pretty silly to me. If you are playing a game competitively, thinking outside of the box is what you do to find new things for your characters. Just because Melee is a faster paced game, it has no bearing on the ability for it's player base at finding new things.

Melee players don't like anything that isn't Melee. They can't even like other games in their favorite game's series, even when they're modded to be more (competitively) fun

Just stop spreading hate around. Your post contributes nothing. Seriously, you are just as bad as what you are criticising. As far as people in here voicing reasons why SSB4 doesn't seem like a game they enjoy... how are their opinions not valid? Where is the evidence that shows that their thoughts on the gameplay are wrong? Why are their opinions considered bad just because they are more critical of the game?

You aren't superior just because SSB4 seems fun to you personally, and you should get over yourself before you go around preaching on your soapbox.

 

[EddyBearr]

There are two traits I look for in gameplay:
1. Character control -- I want to feel as if I control my character. Mobility, personally comfortable physics, etc.
2. Dynamic competitive playstyles. -- Rushdown, defensive, campy, punish-oriented, and well-balanced styles should all have some merit as well as having a decent amount of truly competitively viable characters (melee has between 7 and 11, depending on what size tournament / scene.) With that said, there should be some tier/caste/stratified system for the characters, as I feel it's important to have "bowser [read: awful character] players" and "bowser hype".

I haven't played smash 4 yet, but I've been told it feels pretty good control wise. I'm looking towards competitive playstyles, but we'll see. It definitely won't match up with melee, I find that near impossible -- but it might be somewhat worth it.

 

[soma ghost]

Epsilon pouring on all the un-necessary hate lol.
The Simple fact is that most melee players just love melee, and yeah a sequel would be nice but when we already have something so good why would we force feed ourselves a game that is only going to give more characters and better graphics while discarding all the things that make melee what it is in the smash series?
I'm not going to hate on people for playing smash 4, just like I don't hate on people for playing brawl, but I wont be playing it. IMO melee is perfect.

This "smash community" thing doesn't really work. Which ever game is having the most success at the time will always be getting a lot of **** from the players of the other games.

 

[Bones0]

Melee hasn't been maxed out... Not even close.

 

[Johnknight1]

Melee players don't like anything that isn't Melee. They can't even like other games in their favorite game's series, even when they're modded to be more (competitively) fun

Melee is the best and only thing that ever exists to them

Wow, talk about a hater.

What ever happened to "let people like what they like without criticizing them"=???

Well unless you like say TMNT Smash Up. Then you need to be shot down, and then you need to get help!

If people don't like Smash 4, then don't like it. If they do like Smash 4, they like it. It's as simple as that.

 

[d z]

Melee players don't like anything that isn't Melee. They can't even like other games in their favorite game's series, even when they're modded to be more (competitively) fun

Melee is the best and only thing that ever exists to them

I mean the guy came into the melee forum, do you expect people that don't like melee in here? And to have been playing a game for 15 years, there must be very specific things about the game that people enjoy so its not really a shocker that they might not be interested in games that are similar but not quite the same.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

Melee players don't like anything that isn't Melee. They can't even like other games in their favorite game's series, even when they're modded to be more (competitively) fun

Melee is the best and only thing that ever exists to them

You totally aren't completely overgeneralizing a large, varied group of people right there, nor are you completely ignoring the fact that most Melee players also play PM.

 

[Bones0]

I think Epsilon's right (as much as generalizations can be, anyway). Idk why everyone is taking it as an insult. P:M is way closer to Melee than the vast majority of games. The only exceptions I can think of are certain shooters (Halo 2 -> 3, CoD), and even then you have entire characters converted almost 1:1 from Melee to P:M and entire stages converted almost 1:1. Even with all of these similarities, just the slightest problem with the physics or movesets for the new characters totally upsets the balance that Melee players enjoy. To me, Melee "elitism" simply shows what a finely tuned game it is. I enjoy other games, but when it comes down to it, I don't put any game on the same level as Melee, and I probably never will.

 

[Thor]

As someone who really really REALLY likes Brawl and also enjoys Melee (not very technical so I'm not very good at it though), the OP and EPsilon933 were both pretty offensive to Melee players.

Brawl's not a prison either, but I won't go into that.

And many hardcore Melee players will think any Smash game could be improved by a directional, single-use airdodge, lag when a shield is dropped, DI, and L-cancelling. The people who defend L-cancelling to the death [there are some in other threads] have more or less rewritten themselves to believe if it doesn't have a lag cancel, it should have a lag cancel (or no lag to begin with). So modding will happen if they can figure a way out and they want a larger roster/want to do something beyond PM. So even though you didn't ask about hacking, there will be aspects of the game the Melee purists (which is far from the general Melee fanbase, but is also who you seem to be calling) will already take issue with 4 things that aren't present as they were in Melee - so I doubt your post will generate much success.

I tried
the game just doesn't reward offensive play; it's in the game's mechanics
it's best to just give up on ever thinking a true melee sequel will exist

People thought Brawl didn't reward offensive play... have you watched Nairo?

Admittedly, he's an exception, but I find it hard to believe you are already selling out on a game where there is an actual downside to landing, where you must make a commitment to escape tumble (which wasn't even true in Melee), where some combos are already being found (and ways to extend them, via true means or via reads, are also being sought out), and where attacks on shield so far appear at least somewhat safer than in Brawl.

I'm not saying you won't ultimately be right, but making that declaration on a game that's not even out in North America seems a bit too quick to judge.

To me, Melee "elitism" simply shows what a finely tuned game it is

You may feel flattered, but EPsilon is clearly trying to make the point that many people who play only Melee are stubborn and unable to change. In some ways I agree [I met a player who said Smash 4 will be bad back before we knew anything about it, and he said it was bad because "it's not Melee" - perhaps the most narrow-minded, inflexible person I ever had the displeasure of accidentally talking to], but the post as a whole made the Melee fanbase out to be bad people... which isn't true.

Unless people would like to sling the same accusations at Isai and many 64-only players? He [and some others] only plays one game seriously (he tried the others, didn't like them, went back), but I don't think people give him flack for 64 elitism... oh wait he doesn't go around hating on the other games maybe it has something to do with his pseudo-sandbagging at Apex?

 

[soma ghost]

But the problem is that he's portraying melee players as stubborn.
Playing the game that you enjoy most instead of playing a game that you don't enjoy, or a game that you enjoy less, is not being stubborn.
He makes it sound like we play melee instead of PM just because. Do you actually believe (Epsilon) that we think PM is a better game and just wont admit it? Like we have something to gain by playing a game that we acknowledge as inferior? I just don't understand what you're trying to say I guess.
People are playing the game that they find most enjoyable. Stop getting upset when they don't share your exact feelings on how the games stack up.

 

[BO/\K]

There are two traits I look for in gameplay:
1. Character control -- I want to feel as if I control my character. Mobility, personally comfortable physics, etc.
2. Dynamic competitive playstyles. -- Rushdown, defensive, campy, punish-oriented, and well-balanced styles should all have some merit as well as having a decent amount of truly competitively viable characters (melee has between 7 and 11, depending on what size tournament / scene.) With that said, there should be some tier/caste/stratified system for the characters, as I feel it's important to have "bowser [read: awful character] players" and "bowser hype".

I haven't played smash 4 yet, but I've been told it feels pretty good control wise. I'm looking towards competitive playstyles, but we'll see. It definitely won't match up with melee, I find that near impossible -- but it might be somewhat worth it.

Smash 4 definitely doesn't satisfy #1

I played the demo a bit and have watched some streams. Feels like Brawl 2. If I liked Brawl I would probably enjoy smash 4 tbh

 

[Jallis370]

Yay, I started a ****storm again! Man, people get easily butthurt on this forum...

Let me elaborate a bit:
I have the impression that there are two sides here; One that thinks more outside the box and one that thinks more inside. I'm not saying one is bad and the other is good. All I'm saying is that there are different focus and ways of viewing the game. From what I understand Melee players like to exploit the physics around the game while Brawlers like to utilize the mechanics inside the game. I may be wrong in coloring things in black and white to simplify things, but I'm not trying to be rude when doing so. This is just how it looks like to me.

Now, continuing on this route, that may be totally wrong, I also see Brawlers as a bit more open minded and thus less elitist, making Melee players more close minded but more elitist. Again, these are not bad traits. But it could explain why I see more Brawlers looking forward to SSB4 than I see Melee players. What I hope to achieve is to get more Melee players to look at the new game without seeing it as another Brawl, which makes the Melee players I know, (basicly 3 guys, which does NOT represent the majority but paints my impression of the situation), not wanting to try out the game at all. While Brawlers are good at what they do when dissecting the game, I still want Melee players to look at it from their angle too. Making the game competitive needs everyone's attention, even the ones with a critical attitude. (Negative criticism is just as important as positive feedback)

Now, please stop getting upset over petty things and let's just focus on the game and what lies behind it. If you don't want to then that's okay. Maybe you'll come back if we find something cool to exploit.

I know I'm basicly stepping on everyone's toes with this post. Sorry. Look past it if you can or focus the anger towards breaking the game

Or you can kick my ass if you want to ofc. I probably deserve it.

 

[d z]

Just for future reference, close-mindedness and elitism ARE in fact bad traits, so you should expect resistance when coming into a community and describing its members as such. You also don't really seem to know what you're talking about which doesn't help your case. I don't really understand your distinction between exploring physics around the game and utilizing mechanics inside the game, but you should consider the fact that of the major mechanics used by Brawl and Melee players, I think most would argue that the two most likely to be unintended by developers (not that this matters at all) would be the Brawl techniques glide-tossing and wave-bouncing. Of course if you were here during Brawl's release you would also know that Brawl players are borderline psychotic with regards to their exploits as about every 5 minutes a thread was posted about a new revolutionary mechanic found, or the new wavedashing, or whatever else.

Making the game competitive does not, in fact, need everyone's attention; it just requires the attention of the developers who built the game (should making it be competitive be their intention), we can't do anything to change the game, nor do we have any responsibility to play or enjoy it. None of us care about "exploits", we just want to play a good game, no matter how the mechanics are programmed into the engine.

I'm certainly not "butthurt" but it is rather annoying to be insulted by someone speaking from a position of ignorance.

 

[Jallis370]

Boom. Okay, I'll shut up now. I'm not in a possition to lead this thread. Mods can delete this thread, it won't amount to anything.

 

[Kadano]

This whole close-mindedness argument is so silly. Do you also write letters to physicists telling them to do less research and start playing guitar instead? To me, that’s just as ridiculous as going to Melee enthusiasts and telling them to play Smash 4 3DS.

I am one of those Melee elitists. I don’t play it that much, maybe one hour a week on average. Still, whenever I try Project M or Smash 4 3DS, I end up thinking “this is boring, why don’t I play / research Melee instead?”

Different people like different things. In my opinion, Melee is notable for being an incredibly well-crafted game that still stands the test of time and has quite a lot of mysteries left undiscovered. This article describes how I feel about it better than I can express it; it’s really worth a read if you don’t know it yet.

Sakurai himself admitted that Melee is his sharpest game, and that he won’t make another game that’s similarly skill-based and precise. So why should I “move on”? Do you go to chess players and tell them “LOL your game is 500 years old, time to move over to something new”?

I’m not excited about Project M as it feels like a slightly different Melee engine with more content. I never felt Melee was lacking content, and Melee’s engine feels better to me. Also, the character models still look different, even for veterans. And the voice recordings from Brawl sound so stupid to me I can’t help but laugh every single time I hear them. Falco’s “HOOOOO!” when he upsmashes, Link’s, Ike’s and Pit’s continuous “HYYYAAAA!” when the fsmash or whatever … I can’t take that seriously.
I understand that people who enjoy the additional characters, stages and gameplay additions feel much more positive about the game. But to me, there is no incentive to play PM instead of Melee.

I’ve started the SSB 4 3DS demo 3 times so far, and I didn’t enjoy the controls, the physics or anything else. There is simply nothing about it that draws me away from Melee.

 

[krazyzyko]

I'm in. l've played every smash title competitively for at least a year before dropping it and this won't be the exception. (Eventhough l'll just stick to the Wii U version for obvious reasons)

 

[tttt]

I'll probably look all over the game for hidden tech when it comes out. Well not hidden but more like unknown techniques that allow the game to shine in its full potential and allow for SOME fun-to-watch competitive play.

 

[Accelerator]

Melee players don't like anything that isn't Melee. They can't even like other games in their favorite game's series, even when they're modded to be more (competitively) fun

Melee is the best and only thing that ever exists to them

Leave it to a ponyfag to make sweeping generalizations. I'm surprised you haven't been banned from this section with all the hate and discord you're trying to spread through it.

 

[BSP]

but hey im just another "melee ***" so everything I say subject to hatred

There is nothing wrong with liking melee the most and continuing to play it. More power to you. If you ask me, you're only a "melee ***" if you:

Think every other smash game is crap just because it's not melee

Or you go around and talk **** about the other game(s) in the presence of people that obviously enjoy whichever game is present.

Just go play your own game, no one is stopping you. I don't think all of the different game communities are friends based on past experiences...which is sad, but not much can be done about it. However, that doesn't mean we have to be enemies.

@OP

The people that are still playing Melee today have found something special in it, and if that's their thing, there's really no reason for them to move on. Melee 2.0 probably won't happen, so they'll stick with what they've got. Nothing wrong with that.

Just don't act like 10 year-old kids while doing it, please.

 

[OBI1JABLOMI]

Melee was actually fun and pretty fast before any of the advanced techniques ever took off as mainstays in the tournament scene. Brawl on the other hand was always slow, rewarded defensive play and was just generally boring. I actually like the look of the new Smash bros for Wii U/3DS, except I hate the automatic ledge grabbing that plagued Brawl. If it plays more similarly to Melee minus all the advanced techniques then I will play it religiously. If it plays more like Brawl, I probably won't play more than the first week or so after it comes out.

 

[Clint Jaguar]

I really want Smash 4 to be better than Melee but after hearing so many players say it feels just like a faster Brawl, it's kind of killed my hype for the game. It looks fun and I'm glad the new mechanics allow for the return of fast combos but I'm still not convinced. Just because it plays faster than Brawl, doesn't mean the problems of that game's mechanics have been fixed. Unfortunately since I'm waiting for the Wii U version, I guess I'll only find out whether is lives up to the hype, when I finally play it at the end of the year.

And no, I'm not asking for Melee 2.0, I just want a true sequel to a game I hold quite dear. A fast and technical fighting game that is accessible for newcomers but also rewards those who take the time to master it's mechanics. Brawl wasn't that game and instead opted to take a huge step backwards by trying to replicate the more casual approach of the original. Smash 4 as of now seems to be a step forward, but how big that step is, is something I've yet to determine.

 

[JipC]

But it could explain why I see more Brawlers looking forward to SSB4 than I see Melee players.

Or maybe because the game is nothing like Melee but strikingly similar to Brawl?

 

[Massive]

I think the vast majority of melee players will give smash 4 a shot. We all got burned by brawl, but we are still Nintendo fans by and large and will at least get our money's worth out of the new game.

It will never be melee, but after brawl none of us are expecting it to be. If the game is fun we will play it, if there is any competitive depth we may stay, but it's just not ever going to be as hype as melee ended up being on accident.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

people thingk melee players will all transfer to SSB4, but I think it is just brawl, sped up, with slight comboing. 64 and Melee were the competitive entries.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

This whole close-mindedness argument is so silly. Do you also write letters to physicists telling them to do less research and start playing guitar instead? To me, that’s just as ridiculous as going to Melee enthusiasts and telling them to play Smash 4 3DS.

I am one of those Melee elitists. I don’t play it that much, maybe one hour a week on average. Still, whenever I try Project M or Smash 4 3DS, I end up thinking “this is boring, why don’t I play / research Melee instead?”

Different people like different things. In my opinion, Melee is notable for being an incredibly well-crafted game that still stands the test of time and has quite a lot of mysteries left undiscovered. This article describes how I feel about it better than I can express it; it’s really worth a read if you don’t know it yet.

Sakurai himself admitted that Melee is his sharpest game, and that he won’t make another game that’s similarly skill-based and precise. So why should I “move on”? Do you go to chess players and tell them “LOL your game is 500 years old, time to move over to something new”?

I’m not excited about Project M as it feels like a slightly different Melee engine with more content. I never felt Melee was lacking content, and Melee’s engine feels better to me. Also, the character models still look different, even for veterans. And the voice recordings from Brawl sound so stupid to me I can’t help but laugh every single time I hear them. Falco’s “HOOOOO!” when he upsmashes, Link’s, Ike’s and Pit’s continuous “HYYYAAAA!” when the fsmash or whatever … I can’t take that seriously.
I understand that people who enjoy the additional characters, stages and gameplay additions feel much more positive about the game. But to me, there is no incentive to play PM instead of Melee.

I’ve started the SSB 4 3DS demo 3 times so far, and I didn’t enjoy the controls, the physics or anything else. There is simply nothing about it that draws me away from Melee.

I will admit, I like Project M alot. But the one thing that takes away from it, is that there is nothing to discover.

 

[JipC]

Also I think people are just looking for reasons that just aren't there. Melee players simply don't want to move on to new games because it doesn't interest the, it's not the type of game they find very fun. Not because it's "not melee" or whatever, its just boring for them.

 

[N7S]

From playing the demo for many hours, the game definitely gravitates towards dodging. Unlike most Melee fans, I'm actually really liking the mechanics. I don't see it being as great as Melee, but it sure beats Brawl by a long shot. Sure it's slower and less exciting, but it has a MASSIVE window for competitive play. I see it being very competitive. The aerial game is much better than Melee's in my opinion. But the speed still doesn't match Melee's. It will have it's ups and downs, but it will be a strong success either way. And to you diehard Melee fans out there, Melee will still live on. I love the game as much as you guys do and I see it growing because of the Smash 4 hype.