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Building Your Library - Approaching with Lucas

Tyr_03

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One of the biggest issues Lucas has in a lot of his matchups is that he has very limited approaches. Far too many Lucas players try to get by on just SH Nairs to approach their opponents which is insufficient for many reasons which I will go into more detail later. To deal with Lucas's limitations, I believe it is necesary to develope a library of different approaches in order to maintain unpredictability and vary your approaches depending on the behaviour of your opponent and their characters' strengths and weaknesses. This is a short compilation of the most viable approaches for Lucas and their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Ground Approaches

Shield Cancel Jab
Basic enough. Just run toward your opponent, shield when you are the proper distance, put the shield down and start jabbing.

Strengths: High priority. Can shield projectiles or enemy attacks in process. Third hit has decent knockback. Good against spotdodgers.

Weaknesses: Lag while shield is dropping. Can be very predictable. Punished by shieldgrabs or attacks out of shield.

Shield Cancel Ftilt
See above only use a Ftilt. Spacing should be further from opponent than above.

Strengths: High priority. Can shield projectiles or enemy attacks in process. Good knockback with sweetspot. With IASA and proper spacing is near impossible to be punished unless opponent perfect shields or spotdodges.

Weaknesses: Punished by spotdodgers.

Pivot Grab
Run behind the opponent and quickly press toward them and Z to grab with reduced lag if it misses.

Strengths: Less lag than regular shield grab. Punishes shieldspammers. Good knockback and damage. Can lead to easy edgeguarding. Mindgame.

Weaknesses: Still laggy enough for serious punishment if misses. Punished by opponents reacting to your approach and attacking before you get behind them. Punished by spotdodgers and rollers.

Spotdodge Slide
Inspired by M2K's Fox in Melee. Run toward the opponent and as you get close, spotdodge while running retaining your momentum and sliding invincibly through your opponent. Fsmash behind you to hit opponent.

Strengths: Great mindgame. High knockback and damage. Punishes spotdodgers and opponents attacking to prevent your approach.

Weaknesses: Punished by perfect shield, shield and rolls. Laggy if prevented.

Aerial Approaches

SHFF Nair (combo)
Short hop, Nair immediately and fast fall, avoiding the final knockback hit (autocancel not necesary.) Combos into Utilt, Ftilt, Jabs, SH Uair reliably. Some others with luck.

Strengths: High damage. Punishes shields, spotdodge, and rolls.

Weaknesses: Low priority. Punished by most enemy attacks. If shielded all the way through can be punished after the combo. Perfect shielding on initial hit of Nair stops it. Gets predictable fast.

SHFF Nair (knockback)
Short hop, Nair immediately and fast fall so that it autocancels and hits opponent with the final knockback hit. Chase with PK Fire, Fairs or Nairs.

Strengths: Knockback varies little from percentage. Leads to easy edgeguarding. Punishes shield, spotdodge, and rolls. Unlike above, if shielded all the way through can be repeated for shield pressure.

Weaknesses: Low priority. Punished by most enemy attacks. Perfect shielding on initial hit stops it. Gets predictable fast.

FHFF Nair
Full hop, Nair at the peak of your jump and fast fall so that the final hit occurs as you touch the ground and autocancel. Chase with PK Fire, Fairs or Nairs.

Strengths: Knockback varies little from percentage. Leads to easy edgeguarding. Punishes shield, perfect shield, spotdodge and rolls. If shielded can be followed by SHFF Nair for shield pressure. Mindgame.

Weaknesses: Low priority. Punished by most enemy attacks. Vulnerable to projectiles.

FHFF Dair
Full hop, Dair, fast fall so that the third and fourth or just the fourth hit of Dair connect and autocancel. Timing will depend on spacing and height of character. Around 90% (character dependent) leads into Fsmash, Fair or Dsmash (depending on if just hit 4 connects or if 3 and 4 connect.) Under around 90% leads into SHFF Nair, SHFF Uair, jabs, Ftilt or FHFF Dair.

Strengths: High damage and knockback combos. Punishes shield, perfect shield, spotdodgers, rolls and most attacks. Easy to control spacing.

Weaknesses: Susceptible during beginning full hop. Some attacks hit through (ex. Snake's Utilt.) Harder to pull off against shorter characters especially with good projectiles.

Double Jump FF Dair
Double jump, Dair and fast fall to hit with third and fourth or just fourth hits connect and autocancel. Combos same as above.

Strengths: Long distance. High damage and knockback combos. Punishes shield, perfect shield, spotdodgers, rolls and most attacks. Easy to control spacing. Does better against projectiles than above.

Weaknesses: More predictable. Susceptible during beggining of double jumps. Some attacks hit through (ex. Snake's Utilt.)

FH Fair
Full hop and immediately Fair while near opponents.

Strengths: Cannot be punished with proper spacing. Moderate knockback.

Weaknesses: Only works on tall and mid height characters. Can become predictable.

SHFF Uair (immediate)
RAR Short hop, immediately Uair and fast fall for autocancel. Repeat.

Strengths: Massive **** against big characters for juggling after the first hit. Lots of damage racked up. Weird hitbox. High priority.

Weaknesses: Punished by spotdodgers, shield, perfect shield and rolls. Predictable.

SHFF Uair (delayed)
RAR short hop, fast fall, Uair very near to ground for autocancel. Immediately SHFF Uair or SHFF Nair.

Strengths: Weird hitbox. High priority. Mindgame. Punishes shields and spotdodgers.

Weaknesses: Punished by perfect shield and rolls. Susceptible during airtime before nearing ground.

Projectile Approaches

PK Freeze
Neutral B. Never go the full distance to avoid punishment. Keep it close. Combos into PK Freeze, Usmash, Dair or PKT2.

Strengths: High damage combos. Massive hitbox. Mindgame. Low lag on end.

Weaknesses: Punished by shield (without proper spacing), perfect shield, roll, spotdodgers, airdodge and attacks. Rarely connects against good players.

PKT1
Up B. Loop around opponents' shields to avoid it getting eaten.

Strengths: Punishes shield, spotdodgers, airdodge, and rolls. Mindgame. Decent knockback and damage.

Weaknesses: High lag if missed. Punished by perfect shield.

PKT2 (standard)
Up B mindgames into PKT2 into opponent: loops, offscreen, false edgeguard etc.

Strengths: High damage and knockback. Mindgame.

Weaknesses: Punished by shield, spotdodgers, rolls, some attacks, good spacing. Difficult to pull off against experienced players. Danger of SD.

PKT2 (Thunderslide)
Up B approaching edges of platforms for faster PKT2 into opponents or for PK thunder cancel. Thunder cancel leads into any aerial on Battlefield or PK Fire.

Strengths: High damage and knockback. Mindgame. Faster than above. Better chance of hitting than above especially against players inexperienced at fight Lucas.

Weaknesses: Punished by shield, spotdodgers, rolls, and good spacing.

PK Fire (ground)
Forward B. Tilt rather than smash to avoid tripping.

Strengths: Good damage. Punishes attacks, spotdodgers and rollers (dependent on spacing.)

Weaknesses: Punished by shield and perfect shield. Predictable.

SH PK Fire
Short hop and use PK Fire while approaching the ground for least possible lag closest to the ground. Follow up with jabs if opponent approaches (dependent on spacing.)

Strengths: Good damage. Punishes attacks, spotdodgers and rollers (dependent on spacing.) Less lag than above.

Weaknesses: Punished by shield and perfect shield. More predictable than above.

Platform Fall PK Fire
Run off the side of a platform and use PK Fire while falling.

Strengths: Good damage. Punishes attacks, spotdodgers and rollers (dependent on spacing.) Least predictable PK Fire approach.

Weaknesses: Punished by shield and perfect shield.

FH PK Fire (double jump)
Full hop and immediately PK Fire. Most useful against falling characters or characters on platforms. With proper timing you should be able to double jump before touching the ground. This is a great opportunity to PK Fire again or use a Fair.

Strengths: Good damage. Punishes attacks, spotdodgers and rollers (dependent on spacing.) Double jump can be hard to predict. Mindgame.

Weaknesses: Somewhat technically difficult but if done correctly and used with proper spacing should be basically unpunishable.




Seems like a lot of good approaches right? WRONG!! Almost all of these are situational and will depend upon how your opponent is reacting and what character he is playing. This is why you need to be able to use ALL OF THEM. You'll notice I use the word "approach" pretty loosely. I mean any way that you can get damage in on an opponent without them coming to you first. If you have any suggestions on approaches or information to add feel free to post them.
 

Levitas

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Funny how not one of them is as good as MK's dash attack, and they all pale in comparison to the mach tornado.
 

ChaosTheoryX

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Can someone elaborate on the PK Thunder cancel? This is the first Ive heard of it.
pk thunder cancel is basically just steering the pk thunder into a wall/floor to get rid of it early...or you can drive it into the top of lucas' head while hes standing there which will throw him to the floor.
 

ParanoidDrone

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pk thunder cancel is basically just steering the pk thunder into a wall/floor to get rid of it early...or you can drive it into the top of lucas' head while hes standing there which will throw him to the floor.
I thought it was Thundersliding off of platforms such that the PKT2 gets canceled...somehow...leaving you in midair ready to do any aerial.
 

Tyr_03

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ParanoidDrone is right about the Thunder cancel. I guess I should have been more specific. Most common place to do this is thunderslide off the top platform of battlefield onto the edge of the platform below and combo into any aerial or PK Fire if your opponent is further away. Very flashy.

prOAPC: Uair's hitbox extends considerably further behind Lucas than in front of him so your spacing is much better if you RAR. Uair is generally underused. You might want to spend some time messing around with it. Uair combos tear Snake, DK, Bowser and Dedede apart if you can get them started.

Levitas: Yeah MK is ridiculous at approaching (and generally is pretty much the best character in the game) which is why he's my secondary. But hey work with what you've got.
 

Tyr_03

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PK Fire is in no way even comparable to any of MK's approaches. If that's a joke it's not even funny. PK Fire isn't even a good approach for Lucas's standards.
 

pianodude700

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Just because PK fire shuts down tornado certainly doesn't mean it's better lol.

Fire, like APC says, is used to force the opponent into a hopefully bad approach where they will make a mistake you can punish. You have to mix up this defensive mindset with the library of approaches tyr has thrown out here for us to be a truly comprehensive lucas.

btw, good thread :)
 

Trozz

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PKT2 (Thunderslide)
Weakness: Better chance of hitting than above especially against players inexperienced at fight Lucas.


Wouldn't that be a strength?

Another great thread by Tyr.
 

Tyr_03

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Noraa: I didn't include Bair because it's really slow. Earlier on I tried using SH Bair as an approach because it autocancels on the ground but found that in the time that you're hopping toward the opponent and waiting for the move to come out, you're usually knocked out of it. The range on it just isn't long enough to compensate for how slow it is plus the time spent waiting for the fast fall. Personally it just hasn't worked for me so I didn't include it as a viable approach. But if you can give me a video example of it being used in an actual match effectively I'll definetly take another look.

Trozz: Must be a typo. I'll go back and look at it. And thanks!
 

Tyr_03

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^^^
See my response to Noraa. I personally have not found it to be a safe approach. If you have video proof to prove me wrong I'll look into it more carefully. It's just that the times I've tried it against experienced players, it's been predictable and punishable enough that it hasn't served me well.
 

JJR.O.B.

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Noraa: I didn't include Bair because it's really slow. Earlier on I tried using SH Bair as an approach because it autocancels on the ground but found that in the time that you're hopping toward the opponent and waiting for the move to come out, you're usually knocked out of it. The range on it just isn't long enough to compensate for how slow it is plus the time spent waiting for the fast fall. Personally it just hasn't worked for me so I didn't include it as a viable approach. But if you can give me a video example of it being used in an actual match effectively I'll definetly take another look.
You got to space the bair so that it comes out when your near the person.
 

PhoenixAlpha

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I use the SHbair sometimes. It IS rather slow and more often than not it gets punished when I do it. When I hit w/ it however, it almost ALWAYS leads to a follow-up attack. I use it rarely but like to incorporate it into my fighting, just to mix it up.

BTW: is there a video or thread where I can learn more about this PKT2 thunderslide? I haven't seen anything about this until today and I've been on the Lucas boards fairly often. Thanks.
 

Tyr_03

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^^^
Then it doesn't autocancel and any kind of shielding or spotdodging or rolling by the opponent means punishment. Because of how slow it is your opponent can pretty much always predict it. I want to believe it can work as an approach, but every decent player I've tried it against has punished hard. I'd really need video proof to believe it could be used reliably and effectively as an approach.
 

ChaosTheoryX

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can anybody explain in details how pk thunder cancel works and is done. Ive had mis information on what pk thunder cancel is and was curious about it
 

Tyr_03

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^^^
While running off the top platform of battlefield, press Up B just as you are approaching the very edge to Thunderslide. With the proper timing/spacing, you will Thunderslide directly into the edge of the lower platform causing PKT2 to cancel. From there you can use any aerial or PK Fire to hit an opponent. Massive mindgame, especially if your opponent hasn't seen it before.
 

ChaosTheoryX

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^^^
While running off the top platform of battlefield, press Up B just as you are approaching the very edge to Thunderslide. With the proper timing/spacing, you will Thunderslide directly into the edge of the lower platform causing PKT2 to cancel. From there you can use any aerial or PK Fire to hit an opponent. Massive mindgame, especially if your opponent hasn't seen it before.
ah gotcha. thanks
 

Trozz

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Spotdodge Slide
Inspired by M2K's Fox in Melee. Run toward the opponent and as you get close, spotdodge while running retaining your momentum and sliding invincibly through your opponent. Fsmash behind you to hit opponent.

Strengths: Great mindgame. High knockback and damage. Punishes spotdodgers and opponents attacking to prevent your approach.

Weaknesses: Punished by perfect shield, shield and rolls. Laggy if prevented.
This approach is awesome.
Very. xD
 

Tyr_03

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^^^
I mentioned Dtilt as one of the options after FHFF Dair. Read closer.
 

Tyr_03

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^^^
Sure I'll add it when I have time. Same concept as FHFF Nair anyhow.
 

Trozz

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How about a b-sticked magnet during a SH. You'll pull yourself backwards. It's sort of a fake-out approach... even though it doesn't actually approach.
 

Tyr_03

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I don't B-stick. I'd be hesitant to try that because I hate using the psi magnet as an attack personally since it leaves your hurt box completely exposed except for that one or two frames or whatever that the attack comes out. I'd have to see some videos of it being used or try it myself (which I can't really because of school and stuff right now) to believe it's a very viable approach.
 

Trozz

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I used to b-stick and use it. I don't b-stick anymore, and pulling this off with default controls is a hassle (especially when freeze comes out instead). That trick would be for b-stickers only. There was one person who used it a lot but I forget his name/tag. It was on the video section somewhere. Someone on this forum must know who I'm talking about, or at least know someone who uses the magnet to pull a lot.
 
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