Social Bubble Man's Jacuzzi (Mega Man Social Thread)

[Mega-Spider]

Let's give @ScAtt77 some love after being deemed the best Mega Man by ZeRo! You deserve it, man. You show the world that Mega Man is more than what some people make him out to be. Continue to push us to further heights!

 

[CopShowGuy]

That means we all have to switch to Wiichuck controls!

 

[Funkermonster]

That means we all have to switch to Wiichuck controls!

Umm... https://twitter.com/ScAttMM/status/721819428187435008

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I just wonder, what's his control scheme ? I tried the Wii-chuck combo, but I still can't Short Hop properly...

 

[CopShowGuy]

Umm... https://twitter.com/ScAttMM/status/721819428187435008

My point still stands. The highest recognized MM player uses it so we must as well!

 

[Sorichuudo]

Yeah, Scatt is pretty well known right now. Even in my region, seems like more people think of him when they think about a good Megaman, dude just puts in so much work.

Wonder how other you guys around the world are doing, but life been a bit busy recently(have a lot of stuff to read from the MU thread ;-; )so i havent been researching very much, or watching matches to know how Mega is doing around the world.

 

[Megamang]

The best japanese Megaman is Kamemushi. How he stands compared to American and European Megas remains to be seen...

But he just won a tournament with Komorikiri, 9B, KEN, and other top names present.

The first place prize was.... a free trip to an American tournament of his choosing! Get friggin hype.

He needs to team with Scatt for double megaman lemon wall craziness.

 

[MasterGibz]

Anyone around for a mega ditto? I could use some tips and practice

 

[Mythzotick]

Hi everyone! I'm new to smashboards as well as having completely no experience in the competitive scene unless you count for glory which I hardly put much stock in it, if any for that matter. With that being said though, I've been a huge fan of the Smash series ever since the original Smash for N64, so I'm not new to the series one bit.

As you can see, I'm also a huge Mega Man fan. I've been one since I was about 4 and immediately fell in love with the series even when I would get my *** kicked. There was just something about the games that clicked with me. How the graphics looked, the very catchy and extremely memorable music and sound effects, very tight and fun controls, and awesome characters including the blue bomber. I remember right before the E3 2013 Nintendo direct aired, a lot of people had little faith that Mega Man would ever get into a Super Smash Bros game because of how Capcom was mistreating the franchise at the time. I was not one of those people and I started to get excited when I saw the NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHING! screen and then Mario and then Link, Kirby, and DK standing there like "Get ready everyone! We're about to fight someone whose caliber of which we've never seen before!" When I saw his silhouette with him without his helmet, I was like 90% sure it was him and was getting even more excited, but wasn't sure yet and then finally, when his helmet appeared along with making a Mega Man sound effect, I lost my mind and couldn't believe that my favorite video game character is about to duke it out with other iconic legends like Mario and Link.

I remember how completely different of a character Mega Man felt to me compared to any other character when I first played him back in the 3DS demo days, but I adapted very quickly because I watched and studied his moveset whenever there was new informative or gameplay footage that involved him. I knew what I was getting into and I took my time to learn the main core of him. It's fascinating how much different September/October 2014 was compared to now.

Now, when it comes to any topic, I try to be as objective as possible and not have my blind folds on. That being said and imo, I think Mega Man's potential in this game is very high and will have an important role in the meta down the road when top level Mega Man players get more results with him, more options get discovered and experimented with, and the more we play him and improve our game. Right now, I'm in the lab exploring different ways to play against certain mu's, trying to discover new combos and what works at this percent, what works against this character, what are the angles for this and that are, etc.

I'm looking forward to being a part of the Mega Man threads discussing anything Mega Man related, Smash related, video game related, or anything else that this community feels is worth talking about. I also hope to get a chance to play you guys online or even offline someday and even make some friends along the way. I'm always aiming to improve my game and I'm open to any criticism relating to how I play or if I may have said something wrong or offensive. With all of that said, I would like to thank all of you for getting to know me a little bit and let us fight for ever lasting peace!

 

[Nu~]

Oops, wrong thread.

 

[Funkermonster]

So today while poking through Mega Man 10's soundtrack, I came across what may very well be one of the most beautiful gaming songs I have ever heard in my entire life:

Of the classic games, I haven't even touched 8-10 yet, and this alone (+ a few other songs and the game DLC) sells me on them. I wanna play these games so bad now, but unfortunately my 360 was stolen around a year ago and it doesn't look like I have too many other options now.

 

[Mega-Spider]

So today while poking through Mega Man 10's soundtrack, I came across what may very well be one of the most beautiful gaming songs I have ever heard in my entire life:

Of the classic games, I haven't even touched 8-10 yet, and this alone (+ a few other songs and the game DLC) sells me on them. I wanna play these games so bad now, but unfortunately my 360 was stolen around a year ago and it doesn't look like I have too many other options now.

Well, 8 got released on the PS3 last year, and 9 and 10 are on there as well. I don't know if that helps, but it's there if you want it.

 

[shinhed-echi]

So today while poking through Mega Man 10's soundtrack, I came across what may very well be one of the most beautiful gaming songs I have ever heard in my entire life:

Of the classic games, I haven't even touched 8-10 yet, and this alone (+ a few other songs and the game DLC) sells me on them. I wanna play these games so bad now, but unfortunately my 360 was stolen around a year ago and it doesn't look like I have too many other options now.

This piece is particularly beautiful. It remixes so many bits from the MM4 (Game Boy) soundtrack, it's really entertaining for me to try and recognize from what part of the game they're all from. Because this piece didn't belong to one single stage, it's like 2 or 3 different stages' songs combined!

 

[Mythzotick]

Funkermonster Despite how sad Ballade's theme is in MM10, it's definitely one of my favorites in MM10 along with
Solar Inferno (Solar Man's Stage), and Abandoned Memory (Wily Stage 1).

While MM8 is one of the weaker titles in the classic series, the game gets too much undeserved hate. MM9 is one of my favorites of the classic series and MM10 has Bass, enough said.

All 3 games are worth giving a shot at through my experience.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Someone here seems to be forgetting about Mega Man & Bass tho... I actually have to give Mega Man 8 some credit, since it is the only one that tried to explore a very different path (I'm thinking of the 2nd wave of Robot Masters here). If only there was no Snowboarding sections in that game >_<'

 

[Funkermonster]

Someone here seems to be forgetting about Mega Man & Bass tho... I actually have to give Mega Man 8 some credit, since it is the only one that tried to explore a very different path (I'm thinking of the 2nd wave of Robot Masters here). If only there was no Snowboarding sections in that game >_<'

Mega Man 7? Though not too many people were fond of that game either.

It's Wily Capsule + Slash Man tho... Yeesh

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Mega Man 7? Though not too many people were fond of that game either.

It's Wily Capsule + Slash Man tho... Yeesh

I seem to be getting the impression that not many people like the later games (MM7 and up). They're among my favorites though, particularly MM8 & 9. MM10 is up there for me too.

Annoying as he is, it's still pretty funny to see Slash Man literally turn into a statue when smacked by the Freeze Cracker.

 

[CopShowGuy]

It's mostly 8 and 7 that people don't like as much as the other 8 bit games. They just feel weird.

 

[ぱみゅ]

7 feels weird, not sure how to explain it, but the movement feels sluggish and almost like jumps don't work the way they should.
Maybe they do, but the animation makes it awkward.

I liked 8 tho.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I was thinking more of the stages of the last Robot Masters in MM8, but you are right Funkermonster . I just loved the 2nd weakness circle XD (althrough Slash Man kind of breaks it)
The best thing in Mega Man 7 is using Cloud Man's weapon against Turbo Man or Spring Man. They just become invincible

 

[Funkermonster]

My Personal Opinions on The Blue Bomber's MUs currently:

Spoiler: Thoughts

• Others will probably disagree but the more I play, the more I begin to think this guy may be in our favor: Despite his mobility, his approach options aren't especially good and he can't really do much to us on shield, both of which give us quite the edge over him in neutral. Lemons harass him well from a distance, and his Nair and Fair are outranged and/or outsped by MM's Fair and Bair. His eggs are annoying to deal with, but I've come to find that simply rolling away or shielding them (he can only use Egg Lay or Nair after the egg both of which are punishable once you learn the weakness of each move) helps deal with that. Neither character has the greatest kill options and we both have close to the same weight iirc, but we can do mean things to his recovery via leaf shield footstools (Yoshi in general gets eaten alive by footstools), Bair, and even lemons until he's forced to recover high, where he can then be pestered upon landing with Uair and Fsmashes. Granted, his damage output is leagues above Mega Man's and his mobility definitely helps him get around, but I think we have the weight and superior neutral to deal with it. Needless to say, I am quite confident in this MU, its fairly close battle all around but I find it to lean towards Mega Man. I sense this one's gonna be the most controversial one here though aside from Bayo.
  
• I haven't fought to many Koopalings, but pessimism from other Juniors I met say to me that they're a potential candidate for +2 and possibly one of his worst matchups: Not only does Junior have godawful approach options in this MU, but his usual kart combos and mixups are neutralized quite well with lemons alone, and we can take his Mechakoopas and use them against him a bit more easily than others could by landing on one + grab button. On top of this, our kill options are superior to his in that while he has to make big commitments trying to pin us down from hard reads, we can simply WRECK him offstage: Metal Blades take him out of his cart, and Leaf Shield cuts him out of his UpB without letting him use it again. As weak as they are, even lemons ruin both of his recovery options. What I do see Junior having over us though, is raw damage output, so he could probably at least catch up with punishing landings. I'm feeling pretty tempted to put in +2 as well, but I don't wanna get too excited.
• As a user of both chars, I originally thought this would lean closer to Greninja. But after Scatt released his MU chart almost a month ago and put it in MM's, I asked him why he thought MM wins it. After that and experiencing the matchup further from both sides, I think I'm starting to agree with him. Gren's OoS options are pathetic, which means Metal Blade to Mega Upper is easier to land against him than normally and it gives him a harder time against lemons despite being a fast character, we can essentially dance circles around him spraying them. On top of this, we can challenge several of his crucial neutral game tools and defeat him in air-to-air battles due to his subpar frame data: His Nair, Fair, and Bair are outranged and/or beaten to the punch by our Nair, Fair, and Bair; and all this means Greninja needs to commit to charged shurkens, Fair approaches, and hydro pump shots to actually deal with lemon pressure.. Leaf Shield + Metal Blade Z-Drop is really good at annoying his recovery, while in reverse, he himself can't really do much to stop us from coming back (even his usual Hydro Pump gimps will only push us upwards, though he can occasionally use it to punish our landings it shouldn't happen often more than 3 times out of 10). However, Gren's mobility definitely still helps him get inside and he has various combo starting moves to stay away from (Nair, Utilt, and Dtilt all come to mind). Its hard for him to get hits in but if you let him, he's gonna dish out way more damage and kill more easily than you will.
• I have little to no experience with so I refrain from saying anything about them for now. From a theorycraft perspective though, ZSS is probably -1 and I can see the other 2 being 55:45 to us.

Thoughts or Objections?

 

[SimonBarSinister]

7 feels weird, not sure how to explain it, but the movement feels sluggish and almost like jumps don't work the way they should.
Maybe they do, but the animation makes it awkward.

I liked 8 tho.

Maybe it feels (in terms of overall control) a bit more like MMX? It would make some sense considering that MM7 existed during the MMX era, so they would use existing resources for it.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Funkermonster
Pretty solid MU list overall, and if you don't mind, I'd like to talk about a select couple of characters.

I see why you would put as a -1 MU, because Little Mac is what I'd like to call a "No BS character." What I mean by that is that Little Mac really works on FD and Omega stages, but can suffer pretty badly on platform stages. It doesn't help matters that Little Mac is extremely quick on his feet and his attacks pack quite the whallop. Taking him to a platform stage does make the MU easier because we can juggle him around, but all Mac needs is a good couple of hits before he gets back in the lead.

If this were pre-patch , I would call you nuts for putting her in the even set. After the buffs she got, I can see why you would put her in that spot.

 

[Mythzotick]

My Personal Opinions on The Blue Bomber's MUs currently:

Spoiler: Thoughts

• Others will probably disagree but the more I play, the more I begin to think this guy may be in our favor: Despite his mobility, his approach options aren't especially good and he can't really do much to us on shield, both of which give us quite the edge over him in neutral. Lemons harass him well from a distance, and his Nair and Fair are outranged and/or outsped by MM's Fair and Bair. His eggs are annoying to deal with, but I've come to find that simply rolling away or shielding them (he can only use Egg Lay or Nair after the egg both of which are punishable once you learn the weakness of each move) helps deal with that. Neither character has the greatest kill options and we both have close to the same weight iirc, but we can do mean things to his recovery via leaf shield footstools (Yoshi in general gets eaten alive by footstools), Bair, and even lemons until he's forced to recover high, where he can then be pestered upon landing with Uair and Fsmashes. Granted, his damage output is leagues above Mega Man's and his mobility definitely helps him get around, but I think we have the weight and superior neutral to deal with it. Needless to say, I am quite confident in this MU, its fairly close battle all around but I find it to lean towards Mega Man.
  
• I haven't fought to many Koopalings, but pessimism from other Juniors I met say to me that they're a potential candidate for +2 and possibly one of his worst matchups: Not only does Junior have godawful approach options in this MU, but his usual kart combos and mixups are neutralized quite well with lemons alone, and we can take his Mechakoopas and use them against him a bit more easily than others could by landing on one + grab button. On top of this, our kill options are superior to his in that while he has to make big commitments trying to pin us down from hard reads, we can simply WRECK him offstage: Metal Blades take him out of his cart, and Leaf Shield cuts him out of his UpB without letting him use it again. As weak as they are, even lemons ruin both of his recovery options. What I do see Junior having over us though, is raw damage output, so he could probably at least catch up with punishing landings.
• As a user of both chars, I originally thought this would lean closer to Greninja. But after Scatt released his MU chart almost a month ago and put it in MM's, I asked him why he thought MM wins it. After that and experiencing the matchup further from both sides, I think I'm starting to agree with him. Gren's OoS options are pathetic, which means Metal Blade to Mega Upper is easier to land against him than normally and it gives him a harder time against lemons despite being a fast character, we can essentially dance circles around him spraying them. On top of this, we can challenge several of his crucial neutral game tools and defeat him in air-to-air battles due to his subpar frame data: His Nair, Fair, and Bair are outranged and/or beaten to the punch by our Nair, Fair, and Bair; and all this means Greninja needs to commit to charged shurkens, Fair approaches, and hydro pump shots to actually deal with lemon pressure.. Leaf Shield + Metal Blade Z-Drop is really good at annoying his recovery, while in reverse, he himself can't really do much to stop us from coming back (even his usual Hydro Pump gimps will only push us upwards, though he can occasionally use it to punish our landings it shouldn't happen often more than 3 times out of 10). However, Gren's mobility definitely still helps him get inside and he has various combo starting moves to stay away from (Nair, Utilt, and Dtilt all come to mind). Its hard for him to get hits in but if you let him, he's gonna dish out way more damage and kill more easily than you will.
• I have little to no experience with so I refrain from saying anything about them for now. From a theorycraft perspective though, ZSS is probably -1 and I can see the other 2 being 55:45 to us.

Thoughts or Objections?

I really like your Mega Man MU chart as I find it to be pretty similar to how I feel currently. My only disagreements at the moment are

• I believe we have the advantage over Samus. She can't fully charge her neutral-b when we are constantly in her face shooting lemons as well as struggling to find a way to get in on us when her cqq is below average, no safe approach options from the air, a mediocre grab, a terrible roll, and outside of charge shot and maybe screwattack, she can't kill. Sure she can combo, but she needs to get in first. +1
  
• I've never had too much trouble against Cloud and as of recently, ScAtt and Kamemushi have had a lot of success against top level Cloud players. We don't respect his grab game at all and he is much more vulnerable offstage against us compared to the rest of the cast due to metal blades, leaf shield foot stools, and fully charge shots making it very difficult for him to recover. +1
  
• This mu is even. Characters that are both rush down and combo heavy can give us a harder time than other characters can in the cast. Meta Knight, like Captain Falcon, has a fantastic grab and dash attack. He also doesn't have a particularly hard time getting the kill when he can get a kill confirm into up-b. What makes this mu even and not -1 for us is his sub par neutral, horrible air speed, and is light weight. We take advantage of those weaknesses. 0
• This character is a huge pain in the *** thanks to her stupid gigantic aerials and Luma. This is the one mu where you have to abuse the crash bomber or else you'll be spending a lot of the match 1v2. Thankfully she is light and we're heavy, so we'll be killing her early and she won't be killing us anytime soon, but still. -1.
• I may be biased when it comes to Yoshi since he is my Smash 64 main and is also my 1st secondary option in this game, but I personally feel this mu is even. While we can anticipate his eggs and shield them, if you're not careful, he can frame trap you and put you in a really bad spot. While Mega Man's fair and bair indeed outrange Yoshi's nair, fair, and bair, they don't out speed his nair, which is a really fast move that comes out at f3. I would also not hold my shield out a lot. Even though he has a really bad grab game, he still has a good command grab especially when you b-reverse on top of having a down-b and dair that can really pressure your shield and if you don't respect them, kiss your shield goodbye and potentially your stock as well. When you're in a disadvantage stage in the air, you can get in serious trouble if you're either above Yoshi or are trying to recover back onto the stage. Since Yoshi is the fastest character in the air as well as being floaty, he can just wait patiently in the air waiting for the right moment to take your stock with moves like uair, fair, bair, and nair. Uair is a very quick and powerful move with a rising hitbox. Fair is a meteor and getting hit by a meteor is never a good thing. Bair, like uair, is also a quick and powerful move along with being a multi hit and carries momentum towards the nearest blastzone. I've already mentioned how ridiculously fast nair is, but it is also a move you do not want to get hit regardless of if you get hit by the sweet or sour spot, especially near the edge/offstage as that can possibly setup for fair. Good luck trying to gimp him too. He is a lot harder to gimp than you might think he is. A smart Yoshi player will not waste his double jump at the risk of getting footstooled and will either elect to recover high where we can't reach him or throw eggs at us giving him enough time to reach the edge safely on top of having super armor for his double jump. To sum it up, we have the superior neutral while the green cheery and lovable dinosaur has a slightly superior advantage and disadvantage state and it really comes down to the better player. 0

As far as other mu's, I wish I could sit here and say I completely know the mu, but the character is so obscure that I haven't faced a greninja in quite some time, let alone a good one.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Maybe it feels (in terms of overall control) a bit more like MMX? It would make some sense considering that MM7 existed during the MMX era, so they would use existing resources for it.

That would explain why I'm always trying to walljump there.

 

[Funkermonster]

I really like your Mega Man MU chart as I find it to be pretty similar to how I feel currently. My only disagreements at the moment are

• I believe we have the advantage over Samus. She can't fully charge her neutral-b when we are constantly in her face shooting lemons as well as struggling to find a way to get in on us when her cqq is below average, no safe approach options from the air, a mediocre grab, a terrible roll, and outside of charge shot and maybe screwattack, she can't kill. Sure she can combo, but she needs to get in first. +1
  
• I've never had too much trouble against Cloud and as of recently, ScAtt and Kamemushi have had a lot of success against top level Cloud players. We don't respect his grab game at all and he is much more vulnerable offstage against us compared to the rest of the cast due to metal blades, leaf shield foot stools, and fully charge shots making it very difficult for him to recover. +1
  
• This mu is even. Characters that are both rush down and combo heavy can give us a harder time than other characters can in the cast. Meta Knight, like Captain Falcon, has a fantastic grab and dash attack. He also doesn't have a particularly hard time getting the kill when he can get a kill confirm into up-b. What makes this mu even and not -1 for us is his sub par neutral, horrible air speed, and is light weight. We take advantage of those weaknesses. 0
• This character is a huge pain in the *** thanks to her stupid gigantic aerials and Luma. This is the one mu where you have to abuse the crash bomber or else you'll be spending a lot of the match 1v2. Thankfully she is light and we're heavy, so we'll be killing her early and she won't be killing us anytime soon, but still. -1.
• I may be biased when it comes to Yoshi since he is my Smash 64 main and is also my 1st secondary option in this game, but I personally feel this mu is even. While we can anticipate his eggs and shield them, if you're not careful, he can frame trap you and put you in a really bad spot. While Mega Man's fair and bair indeed outrange Yoshi's nair, fair, and bair, they don't out speed his nair, which is a really fast move that comes out at f3. I would also not hold my shield out a lot. Even though he has a really bad grab game, he still has a good command grab especially when you b-reverse on top of having a down-b and dair that can really pressure your shield and if you don't respect them, kiss your shield goodbye and potentially your stock as well. When you're in a disadvantage stage in the air, you can get in serious trouble if you're either above Yoshi or are trying to recover back onto the stage. Since Yoshi is the fastest character in the air as well as being floaty, he can just wait patiently in the air waiting for the right moment to take your stock with moves like uair, fair, bair, and nair. Uair is a very quick and powerful move with a rising hitbox. Fair is a meteor and getting hit by a meteor is never a good thing. Bair, like uair, is also a quick and powerful move along with being a multi hit and carries momentum towards the nearest blastzone. I've already mentioned how ridiculously fast nair is, but it is also a move you do not want to get hit regardless of if you get hit by the sweet or sour spot, especially near the edge/offstage as that can possibly setup for fair. Good luck trying to gimp him too. He is a lot harder to gimp than you might think he is. A smart Yoshi player will not waste his double jump at the risk of getting footstooled and will either elect to recover high where we can't reach him or throw eggs at us giving him enough time to reach the edge safely on top of having super armor for his double jump. To sum it up, we have the superior neutral while the green cheery and lovable dinosaur has a slightly superior advantage and disadvantage state and it really comes down to the better player. 0

As far as other mu's, I wish I could sit here and say I completely know the mu, but the character is so obscure that I haven't faced a greninja in quite some time, let alone a good one.

Pretty good insight here and there. A few points I will challenge, however.

Spoiler

After playing defeating my region's best Rosa and one of our PR members awhile back, your other arguments are pretty good but I most strongly disagree with this one out of all of your picks, she's just not that terrorizing in my opinion. Firstly, the crash bomber's so good against Luma that for once Rosalina has to approach us instead of the other way around (I can't think of any other MU where she's forced to approach besides ). If she tries to GP it or any of our other projectiles, we have so little lag on them that we can punish her via Top Spin, Super Arm/Dash Grab, or Slide. Speaking of slide, Dtilt is another key to victory against her: It goes under her jab, stops her UpB from touching the ledge when recovering, and it even kicks Luma's ass away to give some breathing room. When Luma is dead, rolling away won't save her like it would in other MU when the threat of Leaf Shield/Metal Blade Approaches + Uair exist and she becomes much worse as a character in general: Killing Luma strips her of her combo game, spacing, kill power, her aerials all become 2x worse, and she basically loses any offensive pressure whatsoever.. Recovering against Rosa is terrifying, but the same holds true in reverse when we can pester her with LS, Slide, MBs, and Slash Claw; not to mention she's much lighter than us and should die sooner.

I could maybe see it 45:55 just barely in favor of Rosa, but this ain't anything to worry about and I don't feel it was worth a mention, and I personally see it as dead even overall. 45:55 is basically still balanced and we still have a better time against her than some other characters would. Not an easy MU by any means, but nothing truly frightful.

Spoiler

Its true that MK has a fantastic dash grab and attack comparable to Falcons and he has a much higher reward, and its true that he can still get kills better than we can. However, MK still doesn't have the other things that make Falcon a threat: Falcon has better all around mobility than MK does, he has more options for approaching besides dash attack/grab, an actually good (no, GREAT) Jab, and he can live longer by weighing more. As you said, MK has a subpar neutral while ours is fantastic, but I feel this says a bit more than you might think when his approaches are limited to dash attack/grab (Falling Uair is your friend against that). After he got a nerf to his ladder, his kill options, while technically still superior to ours, means he has to work significantly harder for them now (again due to his aforementioned neutral game issues) and can't super jank early kills anymore like he was previously able to. He still has a rough time dealing with us in neutral, but now said hard work pays off with a smaller reward and lets MM catch up to him a bit more easily this time around. He can still do DA > UpB and edgeguard Rockman pretty well though.

He didn't really beat RM that much (if beat us at all) pre-patch, the nerf to his advantaged state in this patch still pushes it toward MM, I feel. Admittedly though after playing with a friend (who is also my region's best MK), I am a bit on the fence about this one and MK is one of the MUs for me subject to change.

could change too.

Spoiler

Haven't played too many Clouds recently and I didn't know about ScAtt and Kumemeshi beating some of the top ones, can't say a lot here. I originally viewed it as slightly in Cloud's favor from how he can force us to approach from Limit Camping (especially if he takes the metal blade, one of the very few characters who gets anything out of doing that imo), Nair cutting through our projectiles, Uair juggles, and scoring far easier kills than us via Limit Crossslash but if what you said about our two star MM players winning against the best Clouds is true, I think I need to look into this a bit more and improve my edgeguarding a bit.

Still learning this MU personally and I don't know if I agree with us beating him, but what would you just told me about Scatt/Kume was a nice food for thought. Thanks.

Spoiler

On the subject of Nair outspeeding our aerials, I technically said " Lemons harass him well from a distance, and his Nair and Fair are outranged and/or outsped by RM's Fair and Bair." Anyway, while Nair does come out on F3, it still has terrible range and isn't safe on shield, hardly any of Yoshi's moves are. Yoshi in general lacks disjoints and gets walled out by them pretty bad, and Rockman is a character whose moveset is almost entirely disjointed if you think about it. Egg Lay, Yoshi Bomb, and Dair are options against shielding if you don't know the MU, but that doesn't necessarily make them reliable options: I feel that once you learn the weakness of each move, he still has problems against shielding even with them:

1. Apart from his already terrible regular grab, Egg Lay is unsafe because it has a whopping 21 frames of telegraphed startup and 20 frames of cooldown. We can also control which direction the egg is pooped out, how long we stay in it, and we take half damage and knockback while inside it. Still a decent cmd grab, but is easy to work around once adapted to.

2. Dair does not break a shield if its in full health, and is VERY unsafe on shield if it fails to work. Should we shield this and our shield is still alive, I believe an Usmash or even Utilt OoS can destroy him if Dair is shielded at close range.

3. DownB falls into the same category as Dair, he's in big trouble if it doesn't work and isn't guaranteed. In fact, you don't even need to shield this at all half the time: It has low priority so if you anticipate it, you could beat it outright with an Usmash.

You are correct that being above Yoshi is a bad position and he can still edgeguard us, I'll give you that. However, Yoshi is that easy to gimp and he's taking a big risk going offstage if he fails to gimp Rock: If he recovers low, he is again vulnerable to being leafstooled or just normally footstooled. If he recovers high, he doesn't have any safe options to land back. In my experience in two sets I once played against my region's best Yoshi, I literally gimped him so many times using Leaf Shield and one time just by shooting one lemon at his DJ (he got rid of the armor trying to Dair me with the jump's momentum) and he slipped and fell to his death. Also another important thing to say: Yoshi only has heavy armor on his DJ, not super armor: He's not protected by absolutely everything, he can actually still be hit out of it with a strong enough attack and can still die (Fsmash and Bair say hi, no pun intended). He can still edguard Rock pretty well for sure but the same holds true in reverse, but to a slightly bigger extent.

In the end, I think the Robot beats the dinosaur from boxing him out with disjoints and lemons, he can't do anything to Rock on shield without taking a risk, and having slightly superior kill options and offstage presence. What lets Yoshi keep up is his superior damage output, frame data, air mobility, and having a better disadvantaged state. A fairly even matchup for the most part, but Rockman wins it imo.

Spoiler

I dunno about this one. With Samus getting a big KB buff to her Nair, she can kill center-stage with it now at low 100%s (though our weight could probably save us from that to an extent) and she can kill with it stupid early offstage now, which is one of the places where she has a good advantage against us. Her Zair was option to poke at midrange, but now she can actually make use of it when she has significantly increased Air Speed (now faster than 13 more characters) and she could probably challenge our aerials a bit better with the buff to her fair as well (which now connects better and still comes out on F6 with good edgeguarding potential as well), and her Close Range Abilities were improved this time around with her dash attack having a much better hitbox and her Ftilt dealing more damage + knockback and being safe on hit, and our own CQ are still pretty weak in comparison. We do still have a better grab and Ftilt to Nair is pretty good against her though, so there's that.

Because I don't have too much experience with her after the patch, I put her in the 0 range just to stay on the safe side. I don't necessarily see us actually losing the matchup and you might be right about us winning it, but ya never know. Sometime later, I think I might ask the Samus boards themselves what they think of it.

 

[Mythzotick]

Pretty good insight here and there. A few points I will challenge, however.

Spoiler

After playing defeating my region's best Rosa and one of our PR members awhile back, your other arguments are pretty good but I most strongly disagree with this one out of all of your picks, she's just not that terrorizing in my opinion. Firstly, the crash bomber's so good against Luma that for once Rosalina has to approach us instead of the other way around (I can't think of any other MU where she's forced to approach besides ). If she tries to GP it or any of our other projectiles, we have so little lag on them that we can punish her via Top Spin, Super Arm/Dash Grab, or Slide. Speaking of slide, Dtilt is another key to victory against her: It goes under her jab, stops her UpB from touching the ledge when recovering, and it even kicks Luma's *** away to give some breathing room. When Luma is dead, rolling away won't save her like it would in other MU when the threat of Leaf Shield/Metal Blade Approaches + Uair exist and she becomes much worse as a character in general: Killing Luma strips her of her combo game, spacing, kill power, her aerials all become 2x worse, and she basically loses any offensive pressure whatsoever.. Recovering against Rosa is terrifying, but the same holds true in reverse when we can pester her with LS, Slide, MBs, and Slash Claw; not to mention she's much lighter than us and should die sooner.

I could maybe see it 45:55 just barely in favor of Rosa, but this ain't anything to worry about and I don't feel it was worth a mention, and I personally see it as dead even overall. 45:55 is basically still balanced and we still have a better time against her than some other characters would. Not an easy MU by any means, but nothing truly frightful.

Spoiler

Its true that MK has a fantastic dash grab and attack comparable to Falcons and he has a much higher reward, and its true that he can still get kills better than we can. However, MK still doesn't have the other things that make Falcon a threat: Falcon has better all around mobility than MK does, he has more options for approaching besides dash attack/grab, an actually good (no, GREAT) Jab, and he can live longer by weighing more. As you said, MK has a subpar neutral while ours is fantastic, but I feel this says a bit more than you might think when his approaches are limited to dash attack/grab (Falling Uair is your friend against that). After he got a nerf to his ladder, his kill options, while technically still superior to ours, means he has to work significantly harder for them now (again due to his aforementioned neutral game issues) and can't super jank early kills anymore like he was previously able to. He still has a rough time dealing with us in neutral, but now said hard work pays off with a smaller reward and lets MM catch up to him a bit more easily this time around. He can still do DA > UpB and edgeguard Rockman pretty well though.

He didn't really beat RM that much (if beat us at all) pre-patch, the nerf to his advantaged state in this patch still pushes it toward MM, I feel. Admittedly though after playing with a friend (who is also my region's best MK), I am a bit on the fence about this one and MK is one of the MUs for me subject to change.

could change too.

Spoiler

Haven't played too many Clouds recently and I didn't know about ScAtt and Kumemeshi beating some of the top ones, can't say a lot here. I originally viewed it as slightly in Cloud's favor from how he can force us to approach from Limit Camping (especially if he takes the metal blade, one of the very few characters who gets anything out of doing that imo), Nair cutting through our projectiles, Uair juggles, and scoring far easier kills than us via Limit Crossslash but if what you said about our two star MM players winning against the best Clouds is true, I think I need to look into this a bit more and improve my edgeguarding a bit.

Still learning this MU personally and I don't know if I agree with us beating him, but what would you just told me about Scatt/Kume was a nice food for thought. Thanks.

Spoiler

On the subject of Nair outspeeding our aerials, I technically said " Lemons harass him well from a distance, and his Nair and Fair are outranged and/or outsped by RM's Fair and Bair." Anyway, while Nair does come out on F3, it still has terrible range and isn't safe on shield, hardly any of Yoshi's moves are. Yoshi in general lacks disjoints and gets walled out by them pretty bad, and Rockman is a character whose moveset is almost entirely disjointed if you think about it. Egg Lay, Yoshi Bomb, and Dair are options against shielding if you don't know the MU, but that doesn't necessarily make them reliable options: I feel that once you learn the weakness of each move, he still has problems against shielding even with them:

1. Apart from his already terrible regular grab, Egg Lay is unsafe because it has a whopping 21 frames of telegraphed startup and 20 frames of cooldown. We can also control which direction the egg is pooped out, how long we stay in it, and we take half damage and knockback while inside it. Still a decent cmd grab, but is easy to work around once adapted to.

2. Dair does not break a shield if its in full health, and is VERY unsafe on shield if it fails to work. Should we shield this and our shield is still alive, I believe an Usmash or even Utilt OoS can destroy him if Dair is shielded at close range.

3. DownB falls into the same category as Dair, he's in big trouble if it doesn't work and isn't guaranteed. In fact, you don't even need to shield this at all half the time: It has low priority so if you anticipate it, you could beat it outright with an Usmash.

You are correct that being above Yoshi is a bad position and he can still edgeguard us, I'll give you that. However, Yoshi is that easy to gimp and he's taking a big risk going offstage if he fails to gimp Rock: If he recovers low, he is again vulnerable to being leafstooled or just normally footstooled. If he recovers high, he doesn't have any safe options to land back. In my experience in two sets I once played against my region's best Yoshi, I literally gimped him so many times using Leaf Shield and one time just by shooting one lemon at his DJ (he got rid of the armor trying to Dair me with the jump's momentum) and he slipped and fell to his death. Also another important thing to say: Yoshi only has heavy armor on his DJ, not super armor: He's not protected by absolutely everything, he can actually still be hit out of it with a strong enough attack and can still die (Fsmash and Bair say hi, no pun intended). He can still edguard Rock pretty well for sure but the same holds true in reverse, but to a slightly bigger extent.

In the end, I think the Robot beats the dinosaur from boxing him out with disjoints and lemons, he can't do anything to Rock on shield without taking a risk, and having slightly superior kill options and offstage presence. What lets Yoshi keep up is his superior damage output, frame data, air mobility, and having a better disadvantaged state. A fairly even matchup for the most part, but Rockman wins it imo.

Spoiler

I dunno about this one. With Samus getting a big KB buff to her Nair, she can kill center-stage with it now at low 100%s (though our weight could probably save us from that to an extent) and she can kill with it stupid early offstage now, which is one of the places where she has a good advantage against us. Her Zair was option to poke at midrange, but now she can actually make use of it when she has significantly increased Air Speed (now faster than 13 more characters) and she could probably challenge our aerials a bit better with the buff to her fair as well (which now connects better and still comes out on F6 with good edgeguarding potential as well), and her Close Range Abilities were improved this time around with her dash attack having a much better hitbox and her Ftilt dealing more damage + knockback and being safe on hit, and our own CQ are still pretty weak in comparison. We do still have a better grab and Ftilt to Nair is pretty good against her though, so there's that.

Because I don't have too much experience with her after the patch, I put her in the 0 range just to stay on the safe side. I don't necessarily see us actually losing the matchup and you might be right about us winning it, but ya never know. Sometime later, I think I might ask the Samus boards themselves what they think of it.

Spoiler

I mentioned that you need to abuse crash bomber a lot in this mu because it outright murders luma or else you're gonna have a bad time since Luma is a fat meat shield that has 50 hp. She has one of the best sets of aerial moves in the game since all of them or hugely disjointed and that uair of hers is outright bonkers. Even when you get rid of Luma, you don't completely get rid of him as he comes back in about 13 seconds which isn't a lot of time and when Luma is gone, Rosa will try to stall time since she is much worse without Luma. The only time you get rid of Luma for good is when you win. Gravitational pull isn't completely useless as it can pull in metal blades, but you can already catch them by simply dash attacking, doing an aerial move, and an air dodge so it is for the most part useless in the mu. Slide, like crash bomber, is another move that is a lot more valuable in this mu than in a lot of other mu's, but it isn't safe on shield so she can punish you for it. I 100% agree with you in that trying to get back onto the stage safely against her is a nightmare and you just have to guess what she might do or it just might cost you your stock. Like I said, we're one of the heavier characters in the game while she is one of the lightest so if we can take her stock out early, that is huge for us. This mu is more than likely 45:55 for us, but sometimes it feels like she has the advantage over us. I will say that I get frustrated whenever someone says that this mu is horrible for us or that Rosa is the gatekeeper when that is not true at all and that tells me that they hardly know anything about the mu. She still is a chore to deal with, but she isn't pre-patch .

Spoiler

Pretty much everything that you said about Meta Knight and the comparisons between him and Captain Falcon are why I feel he is an even mu for us and not -1. If Meta Knight had some of the traits that Captain Falcon has that Meta Knight doesn't, I would change my mind, but that isn't the case.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIH6EA43Smk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5mXVlgNqk
You've probably already seen them, but in case you haven't yet, here are some of the matches being demonstrated. If we play the mu like Kamemushi did the first stock of the first match, it can get bad for Cloud. M2k might have mu inexperience as Cloud against Mega Man, but none the less, 3-0 is 3-0 unless it's just messing around then. It's one of those mu's where it may seem bad on paper, but the more you play it, the more you get a feel on how to deal with Cloud.

Spoiler

I first started off by pointing out that I may be biased so that you may take my opinion on this mu with a grain of salt, but none the less still gave out my explanation. Before I agree and/or disagree with your response. I want to go over on how it's like to play as Yoshi compared to another typical, natural character like Mario or Cloud. Yoshi, like Mega Man, is an unorthodox character to play as and against due to him having a weird collective bunch of stats and somewhat unique moveset for a character that's been around since the beginning. Even though Yoshi is the fastest character in the air, he is also quite difficult to control since he can kind of commit and not commit at the same time whenever he moves, jumps, or attacks if that makes sense. He can weave in and out like Mega Man can, but isn't as easy to do so and beause of him being really fast in the air, you have to be precise. Since Yoshi doesn't have a regular up-b and instead has, like you said, heavy armor on his double jump, recovering as him definitely feels off and not natural to most. He is also heavy, but floaty and because of that, you can't really combo him and he can live a long time if you don't manage to ruin his day by footstooling him offstage. His up-b is also similar to metal blade, except way harder to master at since it doesn't have a set trajectory and launch. Not only are you manually setting the trajectory of the egg, you're also determining how far you launch it. Anyway, back to the mu.

I agree with almost everything you said in your first paragraph, but sometimes you can be in a situation where if you two are close enough and it comes down to which move comes out faster than the other, Yoshi has the edge in frame data with moves like nair in the air, and on the ground with jab, d-tilt, and maybe even d-smash. I also think you're selling egg lay, dair, and down-b a little short.

1. Egg lay is indeed slow, but you can also b-reverse it and it's one of those moves that just seems to come out faster when you b-reverse it instead of doing the regular input. When you're trapped inside the egg, you're still in a disadvantage state as you're trying to get out of the egg as soon as possible, you're spending so much focus on trying to get out that when you do get out, it takes a little bit of time to transition from the thought of getting out into "Okay I'm out. Need to get back to neutral." If you're playing the waiting game inside the egg, your options become more limited than Yoshi's options when you finally decide to get out, thus making your decision making at that moment a little more predictable than Yoshi.

2. Dair indeed doesn't break a full shield, but it still does a lot of shield damage and if Yoshi is able to time dair right on shield, he can get away unpunished and ends up leaving you with a small shield and a more aggressive Yoshi. If you do get hit by his dair that connects all hits, that a whopping 32% and you get sent at a bad angle depending on the timing.

3. Down-b still comes out quick enough before you can react and is a somewhat viable killing option. But it indeed does lose to u-smash. It also loses to uair, and u-tilt. Like 's Bowser bomb, it's much better on the ground than it is in the air.

Either the best Yoshi player in your region isn't that good at recovering against Mega Man, or recovering in general, or you just have a knack on how to handle Yoshi offstage because he shouldn't be that easy to gimp. There is also the fact that Yoshi is one of those characters that's at least a little better online than offline so that maybe it. I still believe that the mu is even, but it leans closer in the blue bomber's favor since I feel like us having a better neutral is more of a difference maker than the green dinosaur's slighter better advantage and disadvantage state is. 50:50 or 55:45 us.

Spoiler

I haven't faced a lot of Samus since the last patch, but she still doesn't feel that much of a threat to me outside of her charge shot. She may now have another option to kill us, but most of her flaws that we can expose are still there. My opinion on the mu might change, but for now, I think we have the advantage over her. Not when she's of course.

I'm really liking the blue bomber's mu spread right now and I'm optimistic that his mu spread will get even better in the future.

 

[Mythzotick]

Okay, so Umeki who is considered to be the best Peach main in the world just now made his own tier list and where he put Rock is really interesting to say the least. When I first saw his tier list, I had to make sure my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. Sure enough, this is the case. So according to Umeki, he thinks Rock is...

Spoiler

Umeki has in A+ and is at least a top 12 character(top 9 if we're going in order). So, based on this, he has over notable characters such as and . Now, I don't have Rock that far off and can see why he has him over most, but to have him over ?! If Umeki hasn't gone crazy or isn't putting a on us, I would really like to know his reasoning behind this since his overall tier list is different than most to say the least. Maybe it's because the Japanese meta game is different than ours, or that Umeki is being really bold and he sees something that we don't see.
Then again, he is a player and good players can give her a rough time. Whatever the case may be, I for one am very interested in one Mr. Umeki.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Mega should be about in the 12-17 range I think.

Remember this is a TOP LEVEL player.

Most people are not top players. Mario at that level isn't as good comparatively. Same with fox. Those characters have quite a few limitations. Mega is rarely mastered by anyone , especially this early in the meta.

 

[CopShowGuy]

There are quite a few notable Mega Man players in Japan though.

 

[Mythzotick]

Mega should be about in the 12-17 range I think.

Remember this is a TOP LEVEL player.

Most people are not top players. Mario at that level isn't as good comparatively. Same with fox. Those characters have quite a few limitations. Mega is rarely mastered by anyone , especially this early in the meta.

I almost 100% agree with you on where should be on the list as of right now. I mentioned in another thread that I currently think he is top 20, but that is me being safe and fair even though that is still technically true along with comparing a handful of characters that I thought were better than Rock to now thinking, "Are they really better than him?". My only "beef" that I have is that he thinks that are worse than us. He doesn't even have Mario in the top 20. Not only are both of them one of our worst mu's, but they also have at least some jank to them that usually only top or high+ tiers tend to have. His list also has some really weird placings like being way too high, being way too low, being bottom 3 instead of being low mid at worst, and is not even bottom 15 when many including myself consider him to be a bottom 5 character. I'm well aware that this list was made by a top level player, but even the best are capable of making questionable lists. To be fair though, when you take into account how good the balance of a game with almost 60 characters is, it's almost impossible to make a list that is pretty accurate for the most part.
I'm starting to think that his list is based a lot more on results and how much more different the meta is in Japan compared to us.

There are quite a few notable Mega Man players in Japan though.

They are notable indeed, especially Kamemushi. Compared to us, all we've got over here is ScAtt. I don't know how good Greward is compared to the others, but isn't he considered to be the best player in Spain?

Also, completely unrelated to what we were talking about, but I was just listening to the targets theme from Melee and it reminds me how much I miss the old "Break the Targets" and how cool it would of been if Rock had his own level like the good old days instead of having an angry birds rip off replacement.

 

[Funkermonster]

Got a premium membership, yay! Finally got rid of my stupid name!


Also, speaking of Kumemeshi, does anyone have a link to a video or 2 of him showcasing these footstool combos I've been hearing about? Since I'm learning to do them + perfect pivots with , I'm pretty darn interested to try these with MM too if he's proven these to be legit and viable (even ScAtt admitted he's now a believer of them, and that there's some things he could learn from Kume). Too bad I can't practice them this minute though, Mom confiscated my Wii U again . There's a small local happening near me tomorrow though, so I could probably at try them there with all the time I'll get.

Originally, I was having less enjoyment from using MM awhile back and contemplating dropping him, but how well our two star players have been doing since the top tiers were nerfed, its great to see we're finally starting to move somewhere and I'm slowly changing my mind. I still really, really wanna make room for though.

 

[Mythzotick]

Got a premium membership, yay! Finally got rid of my stupid name!


Also, speaking of Kumemeshi, does anyone have a link to a video or 2 of him showcasing these footstool combos I've been hearing about? Since I'm learning to do them + perfect pivots with , I'm pretty darn interested to try these with MM too if he's proven these to be legit and viable (even ScAtt admitted he's now a believer of them, and that there's some things he could learn from Kume). Too bad I can't practice them this minute though, Mom confiscated my Wii U again . There's a small local happening near me tomorrow though, so I could probably at try them there with all the time I'll get.

Originally, I was having less enjoyment from using MM awhile back and contemplating dropping him, but how well our two star players have been doing since the top tiers were nerfed, its great to see we're finally starting to move somewhere and I'm slowly changing my mind. I still really, really wanna make room for though.

In one of my previous posts, I left a couple links displaying footage of 2 of our best players. One of them has Kamemushi pulling off the footstool combo twice during the set against Komorikiri. One to take stock 2 in game 1 and the other to take stock 1 in game 3. It is legit, but it requires a lot of practice and consistency as well as a lot of knowledge due to characters having different fall speeds. It also helps if your opponent is facing in front of you as oppose to facing behind them as it is a lot more likely to pull it off since there is a good chance the z-dropped mb will hit at least twice instead of once. I wish it wasn't so complicated, but it really helps our punish game and makes them respect us a little more now. Sorry for leaving this link twice, but it really is impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5mXVlgNqk

Also, congrats on getting a premium membership!

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Who's hyped for the new (and probably last) update ? I definitely am my boys (and girls. There must be some around, right ? *looks at Yink * )

 

[CopShowGuy]

Come on "reduced end lag"! Put it on ANYTHING, please!

 

[Mega-Spider]

Honestly I'm just here to see Bayonetta get nerfed again, and see the Bayo bandwagon freak out over it.
I wouldn't mind a buff or two on us, but I'd love seeing the reactions from Badonettas.

 

[Mythzotick]

I haven't got on yet. Does anyone know if the next patch is out or when it gets released? Also, please nerf some of the top and high tiers that give us trouble along with since she is beyond a dumb character. Please give Mega Man something this time like less endlag/auto cancel on flame sword or make crash bomber stay attached to whoever it got stuck to along with more hitstun for the explosion. But most of all, PLEASE BUFF as she is imo the worst character in the game and is in her own tier!!!!

 

[Funkermonster]

I haven't got on yet. Does anyone know if the next patch is out or when it gets released? Also, please nerf some of the top and high tiers that give us trouble along with since she is beyond a dumb character. Please give Mega Man something this time like less endlag/auto cancel on flame sword or make crash bomber stay attached to whoever it got stuck to along with more hitstun for the explosion. But most of all, PLEASE BUFF as she is imo the worst character in the game and is in her own tier!!!!

is pretty terrible too: Godawful Frame Data, Abysmal Mobility (including the worst air speed in the game), Can't Handle Rushdown, can't threaten shields, can't land safely, and almost everything this guy does is a hugely punishable commitment. And even though he's a heavy, he can't even compete in close range nor can he kill safely. At least jigglypuff has respectable air speed is closer to balanced with her risk/reward ratio if she can win neutral, D3 needs to commit to nearly everything he does without enough payoff.

So is , even with her buffs. She has a hoo hah now (Actually, she always had it, people just can't airdodge or DI out of it as easily anymore), but iirc it's very strict in % windows and can still be interfered with Rage and DIs, and she still suffers most of her original problems: Poor Air Game, Cannot approach, Doesn't have enough movement, Godawful Landing Options, and being so light and floaty.


Not to say the Jiggs shouldn't be buffed, she desperately still needs it and is more than likely still worse than these two. But to say that she belongs in her own tier is pushing it a bit too far imo. If you think about it, he bottom tiers in this game are at least better than they were in Melee/Brawl where they're just... sad. They're still capable of doing things in this game, they're just very mediocre.

 

[Mythzotick]

is pretty terrible too: Godawful Frame Data, Abysmal Mobility (including the worst air speed in the game), Can't Handle Rushdown, can't threaten shields, can't land safely, and almost everything this guy does is a hugely punishable commitment. And even though he's a heavy, he can't even compete in close range nor can he kill safely. At least jigglypuff has respectable air speed is closer to balanced with her risk/reward ratio if she can win neutral, D3 needs to commit to nearly everything he does without enough payoff.

So is , even with her buffs. She has a hoo hah now (Actually, she always had it, people just can't airdodge or DI out of it as easily anymore), but iirc it's very strict in % windows and can still be interfered with Rage and DIs, and she still suffers most of her original problems: Poor Air Game, Cannot approach, Doesn't have enough movement, Godawful Landing Options, and being so light and floaty.


Not to say the Jiggs shouldn't be buffed, she desperately still needs it and is more than likely still worse than these two. But to say that she belongs in her own tier is pushing it a bit too far imo. If you think about it, he bottom tiers in this game are at least better than they were in Melee/Brawl where they're just... sad. They're still capable of doing things in this game, they're just very mediocre.

I completely agree with you on your last 2 sentences. I feel so bad for and others around them. The characters at the bottom in this game are about on par to the low mid tier characters in Melee and Brawl. Still though, compared to the others above them, they need help. Now for my response.

To your point, you're "probably" right in that isn't in her own tier when you have characters that you already mentioned still being a thing, but I strongly feel that there is no debate on who the worst character is in this game. At least have something called range on their moves. Jigglypuff has literally no range in almost all of her moves. She is also the only character to die immediately when she has a broken shield although you'll probably die anyway when your shield is broken regardless of who you're playing as.

At of all of her moves and attributes, she has only 1 good move(bair), 4-5 decent/okayish moves(nair, fair, dash attack, pound, and rest), and a non-threatening grab game compared to the other bad characters. As for attributes, she may be the 2nd fastest character in the air as well as being able to weave in and out, her ground speed is terrible, is floaty, and has the dishonor of being the lightest character.

Thanks to the mechanics of Smash 4, one of Jigglypuff's defining traits in this game is almost a non-factor that being able to gimp. With characters having much better recoveries in this game compared to previous installments due to buffs and edge hogging is no longer a thing, she has a much tougher time now finding a way to take a stock without putting herself at serious risk since bair and rest aren't bonkers in this game.

can live for an eternity as well as having disjoints. has a reflector, nasty sweetspots on 3 of her aerials(fair, bair, and dair), and has like you said earlier, a hoo-hah. What does have? Does she even beat anyone in this game even if it's a 55:45 mu? You can probably debate if Jigglypuff is in her own tier or not, but to say (not saying you have, just in general speaking) she isn't the worst, I don't think so. I still have a lot of fun with her though and her new design is irresistible to look at.

 

[Yink]

Who's hyped for the new (and probably last) update ? I definitely am my boys (and girls. There must be some around, right ? *looks at Yink * )

Yep, there are definitely some ladies that hang around here, haha!

I honestly think Mega is pretty good as he is. I think the only thing I'd still want (but doubt we'll ever get) is for F-air to get buffed, either with more histun or knockback.