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Broken again - incase you didn't see it (Now with video guide)
- Thread starter mangodurban
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SiegKnight
Smash Journeyman
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thats why I wanna keep it T_T It makes noobs cry, whereas the rest of the game tries to suck them off
SiegKnight
Smash Journeyman
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Bowser King
Have It Your Way
dear god now competitive brawling is worse then before...
Eternal Yoshi
I've covered ban wars, you know
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Their chain throws need to get banned for the good of the game. If we don't, then the only viable matchup in tournaments are Ice Climbers vs Ice Climbers. The other characters' metagames will most likely not progress because picking other characters is an free win for the ICs. They would have to solely focus on avoiding getting grabbed, which is easier said than done. Meanwhile, their other aspects will most likely get ignored. Matches will just be a contest to see how long you can chain grab your opponent.
I'm saying that not banning this will cause the Brawl metagame to devolve to IC dittos, and that's going to get old fast.
I'm saying that not banning this will cause the Brawl metagame to devolve to IC dittos, and that's going to get old fast.
SiegKnight
Smash Journeyman
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no, its just got alot BETTER. I can beat noobs consistently now without even having to expend effort - not that I wouldn't anyway
even if items and bombs are filling the screen under their ghettoass rules I can 0-death them! ITS WONDERFUL.
even if items and bombs are filling the screen under their ghettoass rules I can 0-death them! ITS WONDERFUL.
SothE700k
Smash Lord
*Whistles* Say hello to Ice Climbers in competitive play...
SothE700k
Smash Lord
The Ice Climbers already had an infinite in Melee. It did not break the game or make them invincible. If you check the results of the 25 major tournaments in 2007, only two were won by IC mains, one by Wobbles and one by Chu Dat.
Given the changes to the ICs and the game engine in general, as well as the capabilities of the other characters in the game, why is it suddenly likely that this infinite will break the game? There are so many characters in this game that simply outclass the ICs, chain-grab or not.
Given the changes to the ICs and the game engine in general, as well as the capabilities of the other characters in the game, why is it suddenly likely that this infinite will break the game? There are so many characters in this game that simply outclass the ICs, chain-grab or not.
mangodurban
Smash Journeyman
However, the many people that have learned it say it's easy as hell after a bit of time with it; so it only takes one grab to win the game. In that instance it limits the roster and will kill some of the progress in the game for specific characters; because, the competitive scene will be ruled by Ice Climbers and the "Anti Ice Climber Bunch", all videos and eventually all game play time will be devoted to them, and the lesser used char. will lose many supporters that would have found new techniques and put variants of matches of competitive play on you tube thus furthering the communities knowledge of the new game. I say ban at least four chain grabs in a row or just put some sort of reasonable limit on chain-grabbing for all characters, ........and ban camping.
SiegKnight
Smash Journeyman
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No, just no. I can't tell if thats sarcastic or not - not looking down on you unnecesarily if you were serious, camping is a *****, though a ***** thats part of the game - but I can say if there has to be a limit on the grab, it should purely be to stop matches being drawn out, and more importantly only up to a certain percentage.
But only maybe. I personally think a game like that wouldn't be too bad. At least its taking some competetive shape and evolving. It means that its not all purely spacing and theres some tech; if theres at least 4-8 viable characters, its still playable. Look at marvel, or well, Melee, to a lesser extent.
Its evolving away and far off from the newbie game where, whether items were on or not, they'd get more of a 'fair shot' at you than vice versa. I agree its hard to accept your own game being broken down that way to only a few characters or even just one or two because its more viable, but at least its evolving into something a tad more complex than basic spacing. I welcome the unbanned chaingrab at least as an experiment. And don't gimme that bs about how its not been abused yet, like Phanna said so in another thread. ABUSE IT. See what beats it. See how far it can be taken. Get smart people to do it against you abusively and make setups, and make setups against it and do all you can to stop it before its even considered for banning.
The people who banned Akuma, to answer an earlier question, weren't scrubs because and only because they tested extensively first.
But only maybe. I personally think a game like that wouldn't be too bad. At least its taking some competetive shape and evolving. It means that its not all purely spacing and theres some tech; if theres at least 4-8 viable characters, its still playable. Look at marvel, or well, Melee, to a lesser extent.
Its evolving away and far off from the newbie game where, whether items were on or not, they'd get more of a 'fair shot' at you than vice versa. I agree its hard to accept your own game being broken down that way to only a few characters or even just one or two because its more viable, but at least its evolving into something a tad more complex than basic spacing. I welcome the unbanned chaingrab at least as an experiment. And don't gimme that bs about how its not been abused yet, like Phanna said so in another thread. ABUSE IT. See what beats it. See how far it can be taken. Get smart people to do it against you abusively and make setups, and make setups against it and do all you can to stop it before its even considered for banning.
The people who banned Akuma, to answer an earlier question, weren't scrubs because and only because they tested extensively first.
Ark22
Smash Apprentice
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People need to quit overreacting to this video. The ICs only deserve a ban if people can prove in tournaments that they can consistently destroy every other member of the Brawl cast (or just reduce the game to counter-picks).
The ICs can destroy people with one grab, but it isn't as easy as people think it is. There is still room for error in the grab combo. Also, they are one of the easiest characters to gimp in the game. It could prove that the ICs don't dominate the tournament scene because either
A) the grab combo can't be abused in tournament play as much as people think, or
B) people can consistently kill Nana and gimp the Ice Climbers.
Frankly, I don't want my main getting banned prematurely because people overreact to a stupid video. Thats like saying Marth should be banned from Melee because Ken won so many tournaments with him. Its just an overreaction. Void and others have been using IC alternate throws for weeks now, and no one has posted much about it until now.
The Ice Climbers should only be banned if they really are too broken for tournament play, not because people saw a video and decided they were cheap.
The ICs can destroy people with one grab, but it isn't as easy as people think it is. There is still room for error in the grab combo. Also, they are one of the easiest characters to gimp in the game. It could prove that the ICs don't dominate the tournament scene because either
A) the grab combo can't be abused in tournament play as much as people think, or
B) people can consistently kill Nana and gimp the Ice Climbers.
Frankly, I don't want my main getting banned prematurely because people overreact to a stupid video. Thats like saying Marth should be banned from Melee because Ken won so many tournaments with him. Its just an overreaction. Void and others have been using IC alternate throws for weeks now, and no one has posted much about it until now.
The Ice Climbers should only be banned if they really are too broken for tournament play, not because people saw a video and decided they were cheap.
Yeah, by the logic in this thread, Fox should have been banned in Melee because "OMG he can shine-spike gimp the entire cast!" People will find ways around being grabbed, and it will help the metagame of everyone by forcing people to change and adapt.
Twin Dreams
Smash Ace
All we can do is wait for it to dominate tournaments.
Me? I'm taking my own advice. I'm learning ICs. I'm learning to do this. I'm going to do this until it is banned.
SiegKnight
Smash Journeyman
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Good show.
S2
Smash Lord
If that chain ever becomes a major problem at tournaments, expect it to get banned in most house rules.
It happened with Wobbling in Melee.
There's no reason that people won't react the same way again.
It happened with Wobbling in Melee.
There's no reason that people won't react the same way again.
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
I know for a fact that this isn't out in the open yet, at least in Orlando. I just got back from a 100+ man tourney, and although I left only after the initial pools (they got started way late, the pools were over at like 2 AM O.o), I didn't see one grab-abusing IC the whole time. But yea, I'd say it's time to learn a little IC's and see if this tech can really change the game.
redeyedol
Smash Cadet
Argh, I was hopin Smash Brothers wouldn't ever have a character nearly as broken as Cinder from Killer Instinct, but it looks like my nightmare came true.. 
ADHD
Smash Hero
I want to see two ice climber players chain grab eachother, wonder how that would work.
Twin Dreams
Smash Ace
Since this logic was praised...
It's possible to survive Shine Spikes. Fox also had more efficient edge guarding techniques. Why jump out and put yourself at risk?
The risk/reward on Fox's Shine Spike was proportional.
The risk/reward on this?
Oh no, I missed the grab.
.......
ICs can kill anyone at any percent with one grab. Missing it means you'll get hit once or twice. However, I'll maintain that this needs to dominate major tournaments. Until then, I'll be called cheap by noobs.
Twin Dreams
Smash Ace
I already mentioned that ICs are the only one that this won't work on. So, the tournament will devolve into IC vs. IC matches. Because anything else is a near instant loss!
mangodurban
Smash Journeyman
Im going to limit chain grabbing up to 4 or 5 in my circles, i think its okay to do because it is hard and shows skill but its less fair than tripping so it has to be limited. Ive learned it fluidly now and its too easy to do now, i get it almost everytime in online and offline matches. I dont think it should be banned entirely because cain grabbing can be used to take to the edge as a gimp combo, but 4 or 5 is enough. Keep smash with a huge character roster, because the game does not need to be ruled by single move, not while it has so many even char. (if you dont think its balanced, it is unless you throw the IC gimp grab in)
It's not going to. Has anyone seen a video where this is done in an actual match? Has anyone heard of a tournament where an IC main has won? All this chaingrab does is make the ICs playable. Can anyone here name any other advantage the ICs have in a matchup? This one trick will be enough to beat noobs, like you said. But if you take an IC player that only chaingrabs and put them up against even an intermediate player, they're going to get stomped.
Revven
FrankerZ
Swillo's ICs say hi: http://youtube.com/watch?v=plMnayMmBGI and http://youtube.com/watch?v=YSvtGYBPvro
bronxboi87
Smash Cadet
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- 63
he lost tho...
Revven
FrankerZ
Watch the other video then. Skip the first part with the CPU though, the rest of the vid is done on actual people that occurred in actual matches (some of which were posted on his profile).
"Stop talking, please." - Some movie, game or TV-show. I can't remember where this quote is from.
You obviously know nothing about competitive gaming. It was evident even before this post (and subsequent ones in this thread), but this one post just made it blatantly obvious to this in the know who were still trying to dedice whether or not you were just a bit uneducated or simply stupid.
It's become perfectly crystal clear to me that you're nothing than either a scrub or an idiotic n00b who read up on a few things on competitive gaming and are now acting as if you're a competitive gamer, despite having only the most shallow of grasps on competitive gaming.
Because I can't see you as even a remotely good or knowledgable competitive fighting game player after this one post.
You quote Sirlin and "Play to Win". Ever heard of Akuma? A character Sirlin in facts refers to in the same article you quote. A character who was in fact banned for being waaaay too overpowered (also referred to in said article).
Banning tactics, combos and even characters is not unheard of in fighting games. It's just uncommon.
"Would you please just go back to SRK now? I'm not being intolerant to new players or users. I'm just being intolerant to stupid users." - Yuna, 04.21.08
Wi-Fi (1st match, didn't watch the 2nd since I can't ATM for complicated reasons). Half of the stuff he did in that match was mistimed due to the simple fact that it was online and lagged like crazy.
You spent well over half of your post doing nothing but throw out ad-hominems. That's ridiculously immature and unprofessional to say the least, and does nothing but aid his claim that you're a troll.
You attempt to counter Sieg's point by quoting the same article he was referring to, but here's the difference. Akuma was extremely broken, so broken he made the game unplayable. IC's infinite is not as broken, because all it does is shift the game to hitting or avoiding the IC's grab. This creates a countertactic, then a counter to that and so on. It simply makes the game deeper. Akuma did not, since there was no countertactic. So his point still stands, yours would if it was used in a different context- but it's not. Congratulations on addressing his entire paragraph with a two lines, and then spending the rest of the time blatantly attacking him, completely ignoring most of his points and countering with something that doesn't actually apply.
I'm sorry, you just don't know his posting history. He spent what I believe were his very first posts or at least what were some of his first 10 posts on Smashboards thrashing competitive Smashers and Smashboards in general and me in particular (claiming I was a troll).
He claimed he was some kind of paragon of competitive fighting game knowledge. And he often quotes Sirlin.
He claims fighting game communities don't ban characters or even techniques deemed "too good"... ever. And quotes Sirlin as proof, despite Sirlin presenting Akuma as an example.
Whether or not this is Akuma-level is up for debate. For one thing, it has yet to be perfected. Seig speaks as if this could never ever be banned because we don't ban stuff, we just try to overcome it (and again, there's Akuma).
He said a lot of other stupid things in that one and consecutive posts. And has he in other threads. I suggest you check out his posting history.
IC's infinite is broken if it can be perfected (as in: Someone can do it consistently). It cannot be gotten out of, ever as long as the ICs don't screw up. Wobbling could be gotten out of at 0%. If the planets align, even at 0%, this will guarantee a KO.
This is a game where the shield has been buffed. Even if you space and time and cancel everything right, powershields and then mixupping with a shielddropped dashgrab/dashattacks/smashes is all it takes. If you don't space or time it right, they'll get a grab in... and you'll die. Heck, what are you going to do when recovering and being forced to grab the ledge? Or when they approach? Heck, ever heard of icicle into grab? Still doable (just harder).
Or mixups. Dash in with dasttacks, dashgrabs, shieldcancelled attacks. The ICs will be unstoppable because if you screw up, there's that infinite... which only the ICs have (and DeDeDe can only do something similar guaranteed to, 3 characters). If they miss a grab (whiffed, rolled, spotdodged), what are they going to eat? A few combos, whatever. If they hit, you lose a stock.
They can literally spam grab with a few mixups and win matches. And that's if they aren't skilled. If this can be perfected (if and I strongly believe it can be), IC's will become beastly. It won't be talk about S-tier vs. Top Tiers vs. The Rest anymore. IC's will be God Tier and everyone else will be Low Tier + Bottom Tier. Anyone who can even stand a small chance of winning will be Low. The rest will be Bottom.
Because the ICs will decimate everyone else in terms of who wins.
Brawl is not Melee. The Brawl-equivalent to Wobbling in Melee is much worse now because of how the game works.
I've seen his past posts, but attacking him does nothing but prove his point =/
Akuma was more of an exception however, because he was simply too broken for the game to possibly handle. I think he's reffering to the ban-happy attitude of "OMGASP THIS IS REALLY REALLY CHEAP LETS BAN" when the IC combo is completely avoidable. Don't get grabbed =/
That's almost valid point, but the idea still remains that grabs are avoidable. Does it give the IC's a huge advantage? Yes, it gives them a much greater sense of punishment, and makes predicting the grab a huge deal. The entire game's focus has now shifted around the IC's grab- it's about doing whatever it takes to not get grabbed. A pro won't let themselves get grabbed by some newb who can't do anything but infinite. It boosts IC to the best tier, or maybe even a new tier, but they're still beatable and the move is still avoidable. It's not so broken it's bannable, because it's simply shifting the focus of the game. If the focus of the game didn't shift, then you're right, it'd be extremely broken and impossible, but fighters evolve in that respect- focus shifts whenever you fight IC's. It won't be impossible to win with other characters, it'll be significantly harder to beat a good IC- but someone great at prediction could still do it without amazing trouble. The move is still extremely new, and we have no idea how it's use and it's counters will evolve. So there's no reason to start suddenly talking about banning the move and the like, it's possible that several other characters will get some completely broken moves too- it could be the next MvC where every character was so broken it balanced the game.
He threw the first stone and, really, at least I didn't openly insult him using derogative words. I simply pointed out why he was wrong on so many levels.
Not that easy. Getting a grab in is really easy in this game. And ICs still have mixups. And they're still pretty good without getting a grab in. When they mixup you, you're going to either shield it and do nothing (if they do their stuff well) or you'll get grab.
That's the point of mixups, not doing the same things over and over. If you spam grabs, people will dodge them. If you never grab, people will shield your attacks. You do mix it up, you'll get some hits/grabs in. One single grab = 1 stock.
Saying "Don't get grabbed" is not the same in Brawl as in Melee anymore. Because that pretty much shuts down a great majority of the characters in the game. It's just not that easy to not get grabbed anymore. Especially not since you **** suffer double shieldhitstun if both ICs shield you and you can start the infinite off of Nana grabbing you.
The game mechanics have changed. Grabs are easier to get in.
Yes, and? What the hell did Akuma ever do in SSF2T that was unavoidable? I mean, all he could do was chip you to death, right? I mean, even if he dashed in and tried to grab you, you could hit him each time he tries to grab you! You could just not get grabbed and turtle all game and just get chipped to death!
"Don't get hit. Don't get grabbed."
It's... not... that... easy!
Stop right there. Nobody cares if some n00b can beat a "pro" using the infinite. We care about what will happen when a Pro faces another Pro. If this can consistently be done, competitive play will soon revolve around everyone either losing to ICs or everyone playing ICs (much like having to play as Akuma) to win or even stand a chance of making it big at tournaments.
We don't want this. It's not good for competitive play.
Not if this can be done consistently. Not considering all that they have and all that the others have and don't have. Not considering how the game works, the game engine, etc.
And it's not avoidable every single time. Stop saying that. That's like saying everything is avoidable. In every single fighting game (save for chip damage). It's not that easy. If it were anything like that, we'd see "pro"-matches where all people would do would be to literally chip people to death.
What kind of logic is this?
"The focus shifts, hence it cannot be broken". O... K...
By what? Predicting every single grab, predicting every single mixup, never get comboed into a grab by an icicle (or whatever those are called) or a blizzard. Never getting powershielded into a grab, never miss up spacing, ever, never have them just outpredicting you and rolling behind you in a grab.
Yes, if the non-ICs played a perfect game while the ICs played an extremely imperfect one where they did everything wrong, then yeah.
Doesn't mean that the IC's will have an Akuma-like advantage.
We know how to use it. People have already figured out how to do it. The question lies now in who'll learn to do it consistently first (my money's on Chu Dat).
There is no counter to it. You can't even get out of it unless we figure out a new Super Amazing DI of Doom (not gonna happen). What are you gonna do once you get grabbed and the opponent doesn't screw up? You're gonna die. How are you going to counter it? Never getting grabbed? Fat chance. Hitting your opponent across the head? Ban from the tournament.
Everything is possible. If this is really so broken (yes, I'm not saying we should ban it right now, I'm saying I think we should eventually ban it) it'll shut everything down, we'll ban it until we find a way to combat it or ways for the other characters to come even close to IC's level using this.
What's up with the inane logic of "Everything is possible so let's allow it to see if we can find a counter to it"? What if there is no counter? How long are we gonna allow it? 6 months? 1 year? 2 years? How long will we let ICs win every single tournament before we say "Screw this, there ain't no counter, let's ban it!"?
Let's ban what we figure out that's really broken until such time we find a way to make it not-so-broken. It's happened before, it can certainly happen now.
Not necessarily. Your new strategy becomes "avoid grabs at all costs". You know it has a range, and so your new goal is to trick them into goofing up enough times for you to get a succesful kill without being at risk of a grab. Ridiculously hard? Yes. Impossible? No.
Akuma has this fireball you se...
Of course it's not, that difficulty seperates the newbs from the pros. I'm not saying don't get hit, just that you have to now center your entire game around the grab. It's like if I have this cheap instant kill move, and you need to be right in front of me to pull it off. Here's an idea- don't get right in front of me.
Then that's the game's evolution. IC's aren't broken to the point they almost garuntee victory. They definately promote it a large deal, but they're more than possible enough to beat.
Brawl is hardly a very competitive game to start with. Abusing glitches and such is imbalancing, and that's not good competitively now either? Competitive play is about being the best and winning, and if IC's promote an insanely easy way to do it then all it's doing is throwing out all the scrubs who are too hard set in their morals to take that extra step in winning. It's a competitive game, it's about winning for money.
Of course it's not avoidable every time, your new focus is to make sure you never get into a position where it IS unavoidable. It's like if Falcon Punch was ten times stronger and faster- stay out of it's range.
It is broken, just not to the point of being banworthy.
That's why we have tier lists isn't it? The pros with the best characters end up at the top. IC's are now the best character. Other characters are still great, but IC's are now the best until some other new extremely abusable and broken tactic comes along.
Stay out of grab range? Range characters suddenly have an advantage! =O
No real counter to being grabbed, you just have to ensure you're never in a garunteed grab position.
It's simply too easy to say that this move is extremely overpowered as to completely **** the competitive game because no kind of counter strategy has even been attempted. If none can be found, and it becomes something a lot of people can master, then banning it seems decent. It's been what, a week? And how many people have attempted some kind of counter strategy?
Give it two to four weeks or so before instantly deciding it's so broken there's no way around it. I'm sure that a few characters could simply camp their way away from IC's grab =/
The question is how hard is this. Is it so hard the ICs have to literally screw up 10 times as much as the non-ICs to lose? If this is the case, then it's Akuma-level. Akuma could lose is the Akuma cocked it up.
If the advantage is just way too large, then it'll have to be banned. Again, Akuma.
Which was unavoidable since when now?
And the ICs will have nothing but the grab-combos since when now? They'll still have the rest. You obviously do not know what a mixup is.
And I say you're wrong. Again, Akuma.
Akuma-level.
Akuma.
Akuma.
You're wrong. Akuma. Akuma. Akuma. You're still wrong. Stop repeating the same stuff. You're ultimately wrong. I'm not saying I'm 100% right. Maybe I'm not, but you have to use better arguments than the ones you're currently using.
D
Deleted member
Guest
It should also be noted that in Melee the ICs had a common enough counter (Peach) to essentially make it very tough for ICs to become insanely broken.
Had Peach's downsmash not been so gay, perhaps the ICs would have been top of top tier.
In Brawl however, there is no Peach-like counter for the ICs. It's pretty dang hard to separate the two.
Had Peach's downsmash not been so gay, perhaps the ICs would have been top of top tier.
In Brawl however, there is no Peach-like counter for the ICs. It's pretty dang hard to separate the two.
Peach is not a true IC's counter. The ICs also easily gimped by Fox, Falco, Sheik and Marth (among others). Certain people had a much easier time separating the two. Now, it's not very easy.
Agreed
It wasn't, all of his moves were simply terribly broken. Imagine a fast, high jumping, no laggy Ike. That's Akuma.
Of course they'd have the rest, I have yet to deny it, but they're also trying to get in that grab for that instant one stock. That grab is now infinitely better than all their other moves, and their opponent is now trying to do anything they can to avoid it.
I'd say you're wrong about saying I'm wrong =/
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
Okay, great, you guys agree. Now stop arguing. Yuna's not saying "Ban it right here, right now." Yuna's just defending the possibility of banning it, because SiegKnight claimed that there is no way, period, that this would ever, or shouuld ever, get banned. That is wrong.
If you agree that it might be banworthy, why are you arguing so fiercely that it, flat out, is not?