Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Veril]

There really aren't many "little character changes" at all lol. Removing stalls, infinites, 50+% inescapable CGs, etc don't count as little changes and I will happily accept any idiotic backlash that results from this. The more minor character changes are ones I will have little trouble justifying. For this reason I'm much more inclined to remove or alter existing changes than add new ones.

ex.
Kirby's f-smash will still be nerfed, but to a somewhat lesser extent. You have to keep in mind that when that nerf was put in place Kirby had tons of mindless autocombos into kill moves. Those have since been toned down or removed, largely through changes to his throws. As a result, he is now massively overnerfed in a way that forces much players to adopt a very campy playstyle at higher %. This is true both on paper and in practice.

 

[HeroFalcon7]

Kirby has an infinite cg dthrow on Falcon. I'm sure this will be changed in future patch?

 

[Veril]

Falcon gets CGed by so many throws that it isn't feasible to change every one of them just for him. The easiest fix is to decrease his f-grav to bring his CG vulnerability in line with say, Falco (so its still a weakness but not, CF got grabbed... GG).

 

[HeroFalcon7]

Oh, but dosent Kirbys dthrow never change in KB regardless the %? I mean cg's are fine with me on Falcon but Kirby being able to do it inf-till fsmash is funny. Im sure you guys got it figured out. I just dont use my Falcon for that matchup.

 

[Yung Mei]

i need some help with this GCT, whenever i load up brawl, after about 1 or 2 matches, it wont load textures or custom music. When it does, if i do something like add a new tag or play a song in My Music thats part of the game, it stops loading custom music, etc
is there anyway that i can get it to keep loading custom stuff without it all of sudden stop loading them?

 

[Alphatron]

^Back up your SD card. Re format your SD card.

 

[Jiiprah]

Captain Falcon's Final Smash freezes the game every time.

 

[Alphatron]

^Update to the latest build. This build.

There really aren't many "little character changes" at all lol. Removing stalls, infinites, 50+% inescapable CGs, etc don't count as little changes and I will happily accept any idiotic backlash that results from this. The more minor character changes are ones I will have little trouble justifying. For this reason I'm much more inclined to remove or alter existing changes than add new ones.

It's not the backlash I mind. It's the possibility of losing more players. I side with you 100% on necessary changes, but still.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So Olimar's down-b is pretty broken, lol.

IMO it's a good move for him to have but there really needs to be more space between each one. As of now it's virtually impossible to really juggle/combo him and all he has to do is hit down-b a lot really fast, there's no skill element there.

Otherwise really loving the build. Thanks.

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

It's not the backlash I mind. It's the possibility of losing more players. I side with you 100% on necessary changes, but still.

But think about this, maybe at first you might lose a few players, but if the changes made help make the game even better, then more people will want to play it in the end. I think any change that's for the better of the game is also better for attracting new people. Sure maybe at first a few people might get tired of more changes, not me personally, but then when they hear how good it is, they will certainly play it. Of course, this is only true when a change isn't huge when it doesn't need to be.

 

[matt4300]

But think about this, maybe at first you might lose a few players, but if the changes made help make the game even better, then more people will want to play it in the end. I think any change that's for the better of the game is also better for attracting new people. Sure maybe at first a few people might get tired of more changes, not me personally, but then when they hear how good it is, they will certainly play it. Of course, this is only true when a change isn't huge when it doesn't need to be.

Agreed. If its a change for the better than it should be implemented regardless. For instance, not adding or fixing a chars move now that would make that char deeper and more balanced in the long run JUST because it says near-gold is wasting an opportunity to make the game better and will hurt its longevity. Kinda like if this stage boundrary thing wasent happening just because we said there would not be more changes.
Anyone that says there has to be a limit sometime is not getting the point of a patchable community driven project like +. The tourney intrants at pound 4 that said they just want it to be done and stable regardless are very akin to impatient fan boys. You tend to hear the same words from any vid game fanboys like zelda/halo fans, but all of the people that choose to think in future terms realize that " I rather have it later when its finished and polished than now when there could still be work done."

I can see where some are comming from when they say they would like a good stable game they can practice and get good at... but wouldn't you rather have a GREAT stable game that you would really want to practice and get good at. Those people that leave because they get tired of changes WILL come back when they hear it done so theres no need to rush Anyway... rambleing/rant done

Have you gotten any feedback from the BRoom on the link fair shadic, SP, and I worked on? This would qualify as one of those changes that will make the game more fun and solid in the long run... Link mains would hate to be stuck with the one we have now for the duration of +...

 

[Wind Owl]

I couldn't agree more with the above post. Capping character balance is extremely short-sighted and foolish, in my opinion.

 

[Veril]

Calling the people who I spoke to at Pound 4 impatient fanboys is so far from the truth. People who put a lot of time into mastering these games are uncomfortable with instability. There are two camps with regards to hacking, conservative and progressive. I'd like for you to respect those who are change-fatigued. Please...


I'm still debating on whether to implement part of or all of the alternate Link fair. Right now we've got several infinites and... school. I actually just had an exam and now can't bring myself to pay attention in the class I'm currently in ;p (lecture right after an exam is some bs)

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Being conservative is, imo, a generally good idea.

Having something static to work on is important. And while changing big things, like Link's Fair potentially, may be important to the over all game. We definitely need to start being more and more careful about what we do and don't change. The game is reaching a near gold point and a point were people are starting to get more and more interested.

The whole conservative vs. progressive point Veril made is an important one to consider. Staying one way is going to help people come in. Changes need to be more heavily considered before their done now. Specially since it's important for the over all metagame to devolp in comparison to the changes we make.

After all, changing things now alter strengths and weaknesses and the metagame will constantly be in flux rather than being defined. Which is, imo, a bad thing.

Just my opinion, kinda backing up Veril.

 

[Yung Mei]

^Back up your SD card. Re format your SD card.

k ill try it and see if it works

 

[Izaniki]

Not sure if this has been noticed/mentioned before, but when playing Olimar, a lot of time when getting knocked back a lot of Pikmin end up getting un-leashed(?), for lack of better term, from Olimar and just fall to their deaths. This is without having used them in attacks previously, so I don't think it's supposed to happen (I would go from full Pikmin to having only 2~, and no they weren't killed D: ).

Also, I experienced a glitch (on WarioWare) where after grabbing the ledge (not UpB), all of my Pikmin disappeared, but Olimar attacks looked as if he had invisible ones but didn't actually do damage. While this was happening, I couldn't pull any Pikmin out, even after trying to get rid of the 'invisible' ones. If I remember right, the only way to get any Pikmin was after dying.

Sorry I couldn't be more specific as to what happened or provide replays, it happened about a week ago and I just remembered to post about it.

 

[Bandit]

People crying for changes either just joined in the plus crowd not that long ago, or have no idea what the tournament scene is like.

When every time I pick my character and start to learn him/her, it's a huge hindrance when the next time I pick up my game they are different. We don't know if something is "good" or "bad" unless we give it time to develop. Infinites are obviously something that are considered bad, and are removed accordingly, but changing a move because we don't like it is another ordeal.

I've been around for over a year (back in the 3.0 days) and been playing B+ only during that time. This game is in desperate need to become a "finished" product that "patches" the game as the metagame develops. There may be no changes needed or there could be several. In the end, stability is necessary now so evaluation at the highest level can take place.

 

[Veril]

Also, I experienced a glitch (on WarioWare) where after grabbing the ledge (not UpB), all of my Pikmin disappeared, but Olimar attacks looked as if he had invisible ones but didn't actually do damage. While this was happening, I couldn't pull any Pikmin out, even after trying to get rid of the 'invisible' ones. If I remember right, the only way to get any Pikmin was after dying.

Sorry I couldn't be more specific as to what happened or provide replays, it happened about a week ago and I just remembered to post about it.

That's very strange. I put it up in my glitch reporting thread. If you get more information on this please post it there.

We definitely need to start being more and more careful about what we do and don't change.

And that, in a nutshell, is my position. If you want to see some of the changes that are going to be implemented, check out the stickied governance thread. I updated it.

 

[Plum]

I believe that is the ghost Pikmin glitch.
Assuming it is, that's nothing new from vBrawl. I don't think they ever discovered how to trigger the glitch, which is unfortunate. Though I don't think they ever found an exact cause, I do remember being able to trigger it with the ledge. So it seems like this is exactly what happened.

I remember the glitch caused Olimar to lose a Pikmin, or Pikmin (lolplural), yet still act like the missing Pikmin were still there. He couldn't pluck new Pikmin because the game acted like it was still there and alive. Attacks with it did nothing. Etc. Only way to fix it was death.

EDIT:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155269
Original thread on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXgBVg2Lunk
Video of Olimar with one ghost Pikmin, five regular ones.

 

[The W]

I think this set is very good as a whole, but a thing thats been bugging me, (And it's probably only me) is that I feel multihit moves need to have more hitlag. It seems like the hitlag on multihits made it easier to keep people in them. It's more of a user reaction thing than an actual game problem IMO.

Example: I'm playing Wario against a Marth. Depending on whether or not he shields my Down air, I'll want to stay on him if I hit, or move behind him if I get shielded to avoid being shieldgrabbed. The hitlag in VBrawl made a difference in that it was really obvious to know if you hit them or not so you could react accordingly. With the current hitlag (And again, this may just be me), I tend to be flying past people with the dair when I should have kept on them because I didn't know whether I was going to hit or not, and then I just eat a tipper F-smash.

I feel that for characters whose games rely on multihit moves, hitlag on these moves should be raised a tad.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I realize that Veril, it was more or less tossing in my two cents and agreeing with you. Wish I coulda talked to you more at OBM's last weekend. ::shrug:: Was busy enjoying the game too much. Thanks, for the record. Love plus.

 

[matt4300]

People crying for changes either just joined in the plus crowd not that long ago, or have no idea what the tournament scene is like.

When every time I pick my character and start to learn him/her, it's a huge hindrance when the next time I pick up my game they are different. We don't know if something is "good" or "bad" unless we give it time to develop. Infinites are obviously something that are considered bad, and are removed accordingly, but changing a move because we don't like it is another ordeal.

I've been around for over a year (back in the 3.0 days) and been playing B+ only during that time. This game is in desperate need to become a "finished" product that "patches" the game as the metagame develops. There may be no changes needed or there could be several. In the end, stability is necessary now so evaluation at the highest level can take place.

I see what you mean... but I have been with this as long or longer than you have (since the very first few codes before this was ever brawl+) and have been pushing link changes and lurking since. I have also brought + to tourneys around me and listened to the bicker about changes. I take it all with a grain of salt... The guys I played wanted a stable set back before 5.0 and now that cape and his peeps worked on gsh1 leading up to 6.0 near-gold they are **** glad there wasn't a stable set.
The point of my above post isent to get more big changes or even that many changes. It was to say if something needs doing that would make the game more fun and balanced then there is no reason to say "oh **** this looks good ... but awww we cant put it in because it says near-gold" veril you have alot of control over what makes it in, and for good reason. I just got sick of hearing people say for months they want a stable set... Seriously we all WANT a stable set, but theres no reason to be so impatient about it. Good games take time, and balanced fighters take years.

@veril: Good to hear your considering links fair change. What part of it is not to your liking? We can always alter it until you feel more sure about the change.

 

[JCaesar]

I believe that is the ghost Pikmin glitch.
Assuming it is, that's nothing new from vBrawl.

I've played Olimar quite a bit in vBrawl and Brawl+, and I can say the ghost Pikmin glitch happens far more often in Brawl+ unfortunately. It happened to me maybe twice ever in vBrawl, and it happens to me once every 10 matches or so in Brawl+.

Even though he's an very good character, it makes me extremely reluctant to ever pick him in tourney knowing that he could crap out at any moment. I really wish the cause was known and we could fix it.

 

[proteininja]

I've played Olimar quite a bit in vBrawl and Brawl+, and I can say the ghost Pikmin glitch happens far more often in Brawl+ unfortunately. It happened to me maybe twice ever in vBrawl, and it happens to me once every 10 matches or so in Brawl+.

Even though he's an very good character, it makes me extremely reluctant to ever pick him in tourney knowing that he could crap out at any moment. I really wish the cause was known and we could fix it.

Sounds like a job for WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON HIS HANDS MAN!!!

I'll jump into training for a while and see if I can replicate it.

 

[V-K]

I doubt this "gold version" of B+ will be perfect.
So if there is stuff people have to patch, they should do it.

 

[Izaniki]

I believe that is the ghost Pikmin glitch.
Assuming it is, that's nothing new from vBrawl. I don't think they ever discovered how to trigger the glitch, which is unfortunate. Though I don't think they ever found an exact cause, I do remember being able to trigger it with the ledge. So it seems like this is exactly what happened.

Yep, that's what happened, I had never heard about 'ghost pikmin' before though. Thanks very much for the info!

(Also, just to throw it out there: love the set very much! Great work getting everything playing so well! )

 

[Plum]

Just a thought.

In vBrawl I was able to spam ledge grabs and Up B's at the ledge until I eventually triggered a ghost Pikmin. So the best answer that was ever found to the ghost Pikmin is something to do with the ledge (may be another method, but hopefully not). If what JCaesar says is true, and it happens much more frequently in B+ than is it a fair assumption to say that the B+ ledge changes create an environment where the ghost Pikmin is more common?

 

[GPDP]

Hmm, I noticed in the governance thread, Marth's changes includes tweaking his physics further.

Does that mean he'll have slightly higher gravity to compensate for his loss of SHDF? Because I remember way back when, people were resistant toward giving Marth higher, more Melee-esque gravity settings because they would make the SHDF too hard to do, at least without copious amounts of buffer. So now that that's out of the way, I do think he should have a slightly faster jump and a little more gravity.

Am I right? You're not making him floatier, are you?

 

[Dark Sonic]

He's actually being made FLOATIER (slightly) and fair is being brought back up to speed (somewhat). His new fair nerf will be in the form of a hitbox adjustment. Fair's hitbox will only be out for 1 frame. It's lower hitbox (near his feet) will also be removed to to nerf it's walling abilities out of a full jump.

Physics changes for him also include removing his aerial stop mobility nerf from before (he'll be able to change directions in the air faster)

I actually do have one more question about this.

Fair will still be able to hit slightly above him right? (both tipped and non tipped) I ask because this is the part of fair that I use for tech chasing people that land on platforms (and also the part used as a followup for upthrow against fast fallers). This part will remain unchanged correct?

 

[Veril]

He's actually being made FLOATIER (slightly) and fair is being brought back up to speed (somewhat). His new fair nerf will be in the form of a hitbox adjustment. Fair's hitbox will only be out for 1 frame. It's lower hitbox (near his feet) will also be removed to to nerf it's walling abilities out of a full jump.

Physics changes for him also include removing his aerial stop mobility nerf from before (he'll be able to change directions in the air faster)

I don't understand where you got this 1-frame fair from. I never said that. Fair hits on frame 4 and I'm getting rid of the hitbox that occurs after frame 6... that's 3 frames (4, 5, and 6).

 

[Dark Sonic]

Oh, I misread your post in the Marth forums then.

My bad

 

[GPDP]

Well, ****. That sucks. I guess if you think Marth is way too good, then I suppose it's a decent change. Still, I just can't seem to much enjoy playing him on Brawl+ as it is, and probably less so if he's gonna be floatier still. Guess I'll just stick to Falcon, Falco, and Ganon, and play Marth in Project: M lol.

 

[Veril]

That's not it at all. Marth's new changes aren't going to be nerfs.

I'm sorry, I should have also specified that the iasa change is being removed. Marth's fair nerf is getting massively toned down. In its current form the iasa was pushed back from frame 34 to 39. Guess I forgot to include that in my list. Sorry. I updated it to account for this.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, ****. That sucks. I guess if you think Marth is way too good, then I suppose it's a decent change. Still, I just can't seem to much enjoy playing him on Brawl+ as it is, and probably less so if he's gonna be floatier still. Guess I'll just stick to Falcon, Falco, and Ganon, and play Marth in Project: M lol.

0_o...Marth is getting BUFFED, not nerfed <_<. His super fair nerf is being reworked to be not as bad. His air momentum nerf is being removed. He's getting a slightly better recovery (so he'll be a LITTLE floatier <_<. Learn to fast fall, Marth had stup low fall speed acceleration in melee. People called him "floaty" all the time cause of how ****ing long he could stall in the air)

This is a good day for Marth players. They just won't be able to fair camp as well <_<

 

[GPDP]

I suppose I misunderstood, then. I'll try him out.

 

[shanus]

I need someone to test this:

Remove Buffered Powershields [Shanus]
06fb121c 00000008
00020000 00000000

 

[Alphatron]

^Added to SD and will test later.

 

[The_Guide]

Could someone give me a text of the near gold snapshot file and its accompanying gct? I've wanted to try the new stages (summit, big blue, etc.) that require a level freezer code to work, but I don't know what codes I have to add to make my snapshot file work with the gct.

I've tried making a snapshot file of my own by taking the regular near gold set, adding my stage freeze code, and removing the codes that I knew for certain went in the snapshot gct (like the file replacement code). I obviously don't know all the codes in the snapshot gct, though, as this method causes my wii to freeze.

I'm not sure if this was missed or not. If anyone could help me out with this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[_Phloat_]

I think this set is very good as a whole, but a thing thats been bugging me, (And it's probably only me) is that I feel multihit moves need to have more hitlag. It seems like the hitlag on multihits made it easier to keep people in them. It's more of a user reaction thing than an actual game problem IMO.

Example: I'm playing Wario against a Marth. Depending on whether or not he shields my Down air, I'll want to stay on him if I hit, or move behind him if I get shielded to avoid being shieldgrabbed. The hitlag in VBrawl made a difference in that it was really obvious to know if you hit them or not so you could react accordingly. With the current hitlag (And again, this may just be me), I tend to be flying past people with the dair when I should have kept on them because I didn't know whether I was going to hit or not, and then I just eat a tipper F-smash.

I feel that for characters whose games rely on multihit moves, hitlag on these moves should be raised a tad.

Learn to play with it, the low hitstun makes it harder for people to get out.


Its nice to have it, i enjoy using it... But when playing people that can get out of multihit moves and hit you before they are done in vBrawl... i understand why they took out a lot of hitstun.

 

[GPDP]

I need someone to test this:

Remove Buffered Powershields [Shanus]
06fb121c 00000008
00020000 00000000

I assume the purpose of this code is so that you absolutely must time the powershield, and so it won't activate if you're holding shield upon landing from the air, right?

If so, it doesn't work.