Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[GPDP]

So what's to look forward to in the next nightly?

It seems we'll be getting the new engine codes, which should allow us to fully customize character attributes which we could not touch before, such as specific move gravity (think Sonic's UpB) and individual hitstun, as well as get rid of restrictions on frame speed mods.

 

[timothyung]

Why not use the SSS code to add the online training stage? That way we can play that stage online

 

[shanus]

It seems we'll be getting the new engine codes, which should allow us to fully customize character attributes which we could not touch before, such as specific move gravity (think Sonic's UpB) and individual hitstun, as well as get rid of restrictions on frame speed mods.

This probably won't be in the next nightly, but we will have 2 other news codes which players will be very happy to see incorporated

 

[timothyung]

Mind teasing us?

 

[Deleted member]

This probably won't be in the next nightly, but we will have 2 other news codes which players will be very happy to see incorporated

when are you expecting to release this nightly? I mean they technically are still useless.
which reminds me to debug these engine things.

 

[weinzey]

hey paprika killer, are u going to port the next nightly (plz)?

 

[kupo15]

wow kupo do you realize how much you flip flop on issues

Shut up Jiang. I don't have to be stuck to a decision I made a long time ago. I am not running for president and ideas change. Troll less.

Even if WBR was for L-Canceling. The fact Brawl has no analog trigger ability shuts it down point-blank.

That's it. Stop talking about it. Let it go.

I mean for ****'s sake. I figured the hardware limitation would of been brought up alot sooner. :V

Have you ever played 64? Most people take out there springs anyway so yea...it wouldn't do anything

 

[Nybb]

Most people take out there springs anyway so yea...it wouldn't do anything

What? Taking out shoulder button springs has been illegal at every tourney I've ever been to or even heard of.

Also, Ganon's grounded murder-choke does some really wierd things (especially to short characters) since the changes to it in the newest build. Is this known?

 

[Deleted member]

people, not the analog stuff here too, read the original thread about it.

 

[Shell]

Yes, Giza's looking into it.

 

[GPDP]

This probably won't be in the next nightly, but we will have 2 other news codes which players will be very happy to see incorporated

Why are you guys so awesome?

You can count on me to test the crap out of the new gravity codes. I hope to actually do something for Sonic, because IMO he's too slow in the air for being such a fast character.

 

[kupo15]

What? Taking out shoulder button springs has been illegal at every tourney I've ever been to or even heard of.

Also, Ganon's grounded murder-choke does some really wierd things (especially to short characters) since the changes to it in the newest build. Is this known?

B+ should allow that. I don't see why we should keep this screw up of sakurai's when we fixed most of them already.

 

[PanzerOceania]

yes analog shoulders if at all possible would be a great inclusion, I mean who here didn't like that in melee?

also, kupo, your codes are discontinued? what about your camera codes?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why are you guys so awesome?

You can count on me to test the crap out of the new gravity codes. I hope to actually do something for Sonic, because IMO he's too slow in the air for being such a fast character.

Sonic's airspeed is fine. He has the 6th fastest top airspeed in the game you know <_<.
Raising Sonic's gravity would also make him easier to combo, while not really adding anything to his game (anything he would gain with more gravity can already be accomplished by fast falling).

 

[FrozenHobo]

yes analog shoulders if at all possible would be a great inclusion, I mean who here didn't like that in melee?

everyone who was arguing against it, unfortunately....

 

[Mattnumbers]

I can't seem to get Ness DJC to work, is it in the build? I jump twice quickly and nothing special happens. I use L to jump btw.

 

[GPDP]

Sonic's airspeed is fine. He has the 6th fastest top airspeed in the game you know <_<.
Raising Sonic's gravity would also make him easier to combo, while not really adding anything to his game (anything he would gain with more gravity can already be accomplished by fast falling).

It's his jump speed that concerns me, not his fall speed, though perhaps that could be raised as well.

If we only increase full grav and decrease dgrav accordingly, the end result will be the same fall speed, and thus the same comboability, but faster jumps. If we increase both ugrav and dgrav, then we could lower his individual hitstun to compensate.

Faster fast falls don't cut it enough imo. You can add as much fast falling speed as you want, but it won't change the fact that his jumps are floaty and take a while to reach their apex for you to be able to fast fall.

I'm just saying we should experiment once we have the tools to really play around with Sonic's physics without screwing up his UpB. And that goes to other characters as well, like Diddy.

Also, just for posterity, here are my old test results on which characters have their recoveries affected by greater ugrav:

Link (Up B does not go as far in the air)
Samus (Up B, but only in the air, as doing it on the ground makes it gain the same distance as usual)
Luigi (down B when pressed repeatedly is nerfed, on both the ground and air)
Sonic (Up B, ground and air, as we all know)
Diddy (Up B distance is nerfed, ground and air)
Sheik (slightly, as the little bit of distance you gain when first performing her Up B is reduced)
Pit (his Up B is harder to control, and cannot go up as much)
Yoshi (slightly nerfs the distance gained from his Up B, but his double jump is unaffected)
Ice Climbers (both Side B and Up B are nerfed)
Dedede (Up B is nerfed on the ground and air)
Bowser (Up B gains less upward distance)
Toon Link (Same as Link, though obviously not to the same extent)

I think Wario might also be affected, but I'm not sure.

 

[CountKaiser]

I can't seem to get Ness DJC to work, is it in the build? I jump twice quickly and nothing special happens. I use L to jump btw.

It's not in this build. I have it, though. PM me if you want it.

 

[kupo15]

also, kupo, your codes are discontinued? what about your camera codes?

My set is and the alterations to the codes are yes. The plussery however wants to add my camera in there but the rocket noises are holding them back I think. My last set will remain up there so you can just pull from that if you wish

 

[GPDP]

I do hope the camera code is fixed. I still use it in my set, and to be frank, I very rarely get the rocket noises nowadays.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

The majority of the people in my area love the rocket ship noise. They think it's awesome, as it attracts EVERYONE'S attention at tournaments. XD I don't mind either way, so I still add it manually to every nightly build set, since the camera is awesome (even more so on Smashville). But I also wouldn't complain if the noise gets fixed.

PS: The record of most rapid noise activation that I've experienced was 3 times within a 3-4-minute match (during a team match on Smashville).

PS #2: But I can't wait to see the next update's changes.

 

[PanzerOceania]

yes I am also a huge fan of the camera code I will use it regularly but hopefully the rocket ship can be addressed so more people use it.

as for the shoulder button deal I don't think that EVERYONE apposed DOESN'T want the shoulder analog, I just think that they don't think it's worth the time and effort.

I'd say if the end result is good then it's always worth it but then again I'm not the one coding

 

[GHNeko]

Camera code is pimp as hell.


And Kupo, I played 64, and that used digital button input. It was either 0 or 1. Its not like that in Melee. It was 0,1, and 2. :V

Not everyone removes their springs from their triggers as well. Plenty of people use the triggers for L-Canceling, and not the button within the trigger. .__.

Just like how plenty of people stick to Tap Jump On in Brawl. Its a personal preference thing.

 

[Lil'E]

I personally play Ness and occasionally Lucas on the side. Ness and Lucas are the only characters I know of that get punished for hitting the ledge while trying to recover after getting launched or chasing the opponent offstage. Diddy Kong may also have a problem with this but I can't find my brawl disc atm to check.

This has been in the game since vbrawl and I think it's ********.

There are five things that can happen when you miss the sweet spot.

.............\
1)_______ \
...............\

2)_______

...............\
................\
.................\

.............|
.............|
3)_______|

4)_______
.............|
.............|
.............|

5)_______ ____

____ = ledge, \ | _ = Trajectory

3 & 4 are what happen when you bounce off the ledge, and 5 is what happens when you hit a ceiling(I think... not too sure). If one could actually 'master' the angles to accomplish 3 and 4, they could be very useful in certain situations especially since you retain PKT2's sourspot. But, there is still the chance of eating a fully charged Smash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pJcr1wE5xw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3WM9Zw7HrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmmskd_TEHg

5 does NOTHING however. 3 and 4 come with that 'risk reward' aspect but 5 has nothing. You get nothing out of it but a lost stock. 4 also comes with a lost stock but sometimes it is worth it.

I suggest fixing 5 in some way that does not really buff his recovery, but make it have some use. Have him retain his PKT2 sourspot if he hits a ceiling instead of going directly into his helpless state or decrease the distance that you travel significantly when you bounce like that so that you'll still be able to grab the ledge if your opponent has failed to edgehog you. The only other thing I can think of is giving them back their DJ or Up-B if they hit a ceiling; however, this could be a bit OP in terms of recovering.

I dunno, but if its happened to you before... 5 can be a real ***** and one of the worst ways to lose a stock/match. It's like the stage has adopted Mario's cape.

Your opinions?

Spoiler

I still think a reduction on the lag from an aerial PK Fire would be another great addition for Ness, but... go figure.

 

[XSilvenX]

How about we take Ness out of the game?

 

[Yingyay]

How about we take Ness out of the game?

Honestly speaking. They might as well. Lucas is superior to him anyway. The only thing Ness got on Lucas is his dair and bair. Oh and Ness got my fitted

 

[kupo15]

Camera code is pimp as hell.


And Kupo, I played 64, and that used digital button input. It was either 0 or 1. Its not like that in Melee. It was 0,1, and 2. :V

Not everyone removes their springs from their triggers as well. Plenty of people use the triggers for L-Canceling, and not the button within the trigger. .__.

Just like how plenty of people stick to Tap Jump On in Brawl. Its a personal preference thing.

That is my whole point. 64 uses digital inputs the same way brawl does and if it wasn't a problem in 64, it won't be in brawl. I always half trigger in melee to l cancel myself but I also had a brawl controller with the springs out and a melee controller with the springs in, not to mention there are most likely lots of people that have completely put melee down and play tons more b+ anyway.

 

[PanzerOceania]

I'd just be interested in it for analog shielding if possible, that would be tight.

 

[GHNeko]

That is my whole point. 64 uses digital inputs the same way brawl does and if it wasn't a problem in 64, it won't be in brawl. I always half trigger in melee to l cancel myself but I also had a brawl controller with the springs out and a melee controller with the springs in, not to mention there are most likely lots of people that have completely put melee down and play tons more b+ anyway.

But in 64, there were no analog triggers. All the buttons are digital. :/

Not everyone wants to remove their springs and not everyone can remove their springs. The controller for 64 caters more towards SSB64 than the Cube to Brawl+.

 

[PanzerOceania]

But in 64, there were no analog triggers. All the buttons are digital. :/

Not everyone wants to remove their springs and not everyone can remove their springs. The controller for 64 caters more towards SSB64 than the Cube to Brawl+.

QFT

10 char

 

[sand8]

Just tried out the nightly build, i like ganons new murder grab frame changes
all seems to check out OK in this version

i still wonder about the no auto sweet spot code
why was it put in?
i understand it is to make recovery harder, but it makes edgequarding amazingly easy with chars like gaw/rob/ness/lucas/meta/marth and pretty much anyone with a fast d tilt or d smash

i cant count the number of times i have spaced correctly with marios up B only to get d tilted, and yeah i'm sure i'm as close to the edge as possible and not going over

sweet spotting needs to be re added
or you could make the reach for characters less so sweet spotting is harder
also another option would be to change dtilt hitboxes, because some of them seem to have a hitbox below them, so edgequarding with a spammy dtilt is easy cough*GaW*cough

and its not like i cant recover either, i recover all the time its just annoying when you get d tilted, or you bounce off the edge when you are ness ( and yeah you can go above, but it begs for punishment, unless landing lag was reduced to zero)

recovering is hard enough in B+ due to the increased hitstun
why does it need to be impossible to recover against a half skilled player?

also some added ending lag on falco's u tilt would be appreciated, cus getting caught in 2-3 of those at low percent is annoying, and yeah i know i can DI, but you still get hit by one or two

and i dont know if it is possible but maybe increase ganon's grab range, cus it still seems to be incredibly short

those are just a couple of my suggestions
thanks a ton for all the great changes you have already made

 

[Heroes_Never_Die]

Recovery in Brawl is considered pretty easy; it's unlikely that anything will be done to buff recoveries in general.

 

[Kuga]

Just tried out the nightly build, i like ganons new murder grab frame changes
all seems to check out OK in this version

i still wonder about the no auto sweet spot code
why was it put in?
i understand it is to make recovery harder, but it makes edgequarding amazingly easy with chars like gaw/rob/ness/lucas/meta/marth and pretty much anyone with a fast d tilt or d smash

i cant count the number of times i have spaced correctly with marios up B only to get d tilted, and yeah i'm sure i'm as close to the edge as possible and not going over

sweet spotting needs to be re added
or you could make the reach for characters less so sweet spotting is harder
also another option would be to change dtilt hitboxes, because some of them seem to have a hitbox below them, so edgequarding with a spammy dtilt is easy cough*GaW*cough

and its not like i cant recover either, i recover all the time its just annoying when you get d tilted, or you bounce off the edge when you are ness ( and yeah you can go above, but it begs for punishment, unless landing lag was reduced to zero)

recovering is hard enough in B+ due to the increased hitstun
why does it need to be impossible to recover against a half skilled player?

also some added ending lag on falco's u tilt would be appreciated, cus getting caught in 2-3 of those at low percent is annoying, and yeah i know i can DI, but you still get hit by one or two

and i dont know if it is possible but maybe increase ganon's grab range, cus it still seems to be incredibly short

those are just a couple of my suggestions
thanks a ton for all the great changes you have already made

Sorry,but no.
NASL add more dynamic to the Game,improving the edgeguarding game.Ness and Lucas still can autosweet spot.(Its hard,but they can)
On Falco thing,i agree with you,maybe a BIT more lag,not to much,because this will only combo with itself.

 

[Plum]

Just tried out the nightly build, i like ganons new murder grab frame changes
all seems to check out OK in this version

i still wonder about the no auto sweet spot code
why was it put in?
i understand it is to make recovery harder, but it makes edgequarding amazingly easy with chars like gaw/rob/ness/lucas/meta/marth and pretty much anyone with a fast d tilt or d smash

i cant count the number of times i have spaced correctly with marios up B only to get d tilted, and yeah i'm sure i'm as close to the edge as possible and not going over

sweet spotting needs to be re added
or you could make the reach for characters less so sweet spotting is harder
also another option would be to change dtilt hitboxes, because some of them seem to have a hitbox below them, so edgequarding with a spammy dtilt is easy cough*GaW*cough

and its not like i cant recover either, i recover all the time its just annoying when you get d tilted, or you bounce off the edge when you are ness ( and yeah you can go above, but it begs for punishment, unless landing lag was reduced to zero)

recovering is hard enough in B+ due to the increased hitstun
why does it need to be impossible to recover against a half skilled player?

also some added ending lag on falco's u tilt would be appreciated, cus getting caught in 2-3 of those at low percent is annoying, and yeah i know i can DI, but you still get hit by one or two

and i dont know if it is possible but maybe increase ganon's grab range, cus it still seems to be incredibly short

those are just a couple of my suggestions
thanks a ton for all the great changes you have already made

No ASL is a great thing to add another competitive layer to the game; yes edgeguarding is easier, but the general view is that the mindless ease of recovery in vBrawl due to the autosweetspotting was something that needed to go. Some characters are hurt by it more than others obviously, but the same argument can be used that a half skilled player won't get edgeguarded because they are smart with their recovery. The best thing I can say is really abuse how large Brawl's sweetspot range is; you can be clearly away from the ledge to the point where you should have missed it all together and still grab the ledge and avoid onstage edgeguards.

As far as Falco's Utilt, that one is something that just won't happen, but there is clear reason behind it. The move is one of Falco's most important combo starters, and the endlag is so small so it can actually combo in the first place. Any more endlag and it actually becomes impossible to combo Utilt into any other move besides another Utilt. It's easy for him to chain a few Utilts together at low percents, but make it any slower and that's all it will do.

Right now we can't increase a character's grab range, sadly. Considering how tall Ganon is, and clearly having long arms because of it, it would make sense for him to have a much longer grab range, but its something that can't be changed (at least yet). I agree that it is stupidly short for a character with his limbs, but its just how it is :\

 

[Dan_X]

As far as Falco's Utilt, that one is something that just won't happen, but there is clear reason behind it. The move is one of Falco's most important combo starters, and the endlag is so small so it can actually combo in the first place. Any more endlag and it actually becomes impossible to combo Utilt into any other move besides another Utilt. It's easy for him to chain a few Utilts together at low percents, but make it any slower and that's all it will do.

I agree entirely. His Utilt is PERFECT as is. It truly is the basis of his comboing game. You can DI follow ups too, so... what's the big deal? If you mess up and get hit more than you should that's your fault.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ok everyone, I was thinking about something someone in the WBR told me (I think it was SHeLL). He said that you guys were looking for new AT's that could be added to Brawl+ to increase depth.

Well I was thinking and I think I have one.

I call it Ledge Bending, Its a technique where if you aim at the ledge at a certain angle when using a directionally controlled upb, (Spacies, Ness, Lucas, Diddy, Pikachu, I don't add Lucario because you can control direction while moving) you curve around. If you don't understand it think of it this way.

You are below the stage and a bit to the right on the right side of Battlefield. You use your upb toward the ledge. Now usually you would collide with the edge and just stop/bounce off. But if we code this AT, you instead change angles and start to go sideways along the stage. It pretty much looks like you bent the direction of the Upb halfway through.

This may sound weird but it actually already happens with Ness and Lucas, although it's impossible to do repeatedly (as far as I can tell it's a random glitch). I thought it would be good if certain characters (at least Ness and Lucas, but possibly others such as the ones I listed above) could do this as an AT.

The purpose would be to mix up edgeguards and possibly be used as on offensive tool. Really it wouldn't serve as more than a mixup as a experienced opponent would just smash you out of the endlag of the move. I think it would not only be great for Lucas and Ness, but it would be great for Diddy too. Diddy currently has a bad recovery, which is ok, but I feel it's bad in the wrong way. Sort of like Ness's multiple PKT1, this would just keep his recovery from being STUPIDLY bad instead of just bad.

Anyways I would like to hear (constructive) feedback on this idea please. I think it could be a neat little AT that would add some cool things to the game, as well as take out some things that are bad.

Other possibilities that could go with the idea:
1. The length of the move is extended when you Ledge Bend
2. You could Ledge Bend backwards (hit the edge from onstage and bend down)
^if you could do this think of the mindgames Pikachu could do, it would be cool.

 

[sand8]

is it just me? does no one else get dtilted when they recover form below?

and if it is, anyone got any tips?

also cant we just make diddys "helpless" animation after he collides with the edge end faster so he can recover?

or maybe give ness and lucas a collision witht eh edge, so take damage and can do thier up B again?

 

[CountKaiser]

Recover high, that's usually the way to go.

If you can't recovery high, and it seems as though your recovery sucks, that's most likely a character weakness that you have to accept and try to work around.

If you hit someone while Up-Bing near the ledge, you grab the ledge instantly. That may help you out.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

is there anyway to make it so that utilt can have followups but not be spammable(for falco)? so that he can still combo, but not with another utilt? it will stop from seeing the same boring old combos that are usually utilt>utilt and will be utilt>oh **** not a utilt, etc.

 

[sand8]

i guess it boils down to this.. diddies recovery from below is a joke... i think he, and only him needs auto sweet spotting, if only he has it people will know to edgehog