D
Deleted member
Guest
this is were un programmed AT's come into play, do you seriously think Nintendo wanted to put in jab locking?
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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?
- Thread starter Yuna
- Start date
- Status
Sagemoon, being good at a game =/= Knowing all there is to know about the game.
Sports coaches are rarely better than their trainées, but they know more than them. Likewise, I've never claimed to be one of the world's top Brawl players (by choice since I don't care enough about the game to even attempt to go "pro") or even better than you. I just know a lot about the game.
I never said Nintendo wanted to do this or that. I said that this and that is programmed into the game, be it through unintended uses or glitches. Nintendo programmed the game in a certain way, this is the game we're stuck with since they're apparently not planning on patching it.
Sports coaches are rarely better than their trainées, but they know more than them. Likewise, I've never claimed to be one of the world's top Brawl players (by choice since I don't care enough about the game to even attempt to go "pro") or even better than you. I just know a lot about the game.
Wanting to do something =/= Doing/not doing something.
I never said Nintendo wanted to do this or that. I said that this and that is programmed into the game, be it through unintended uses or glitches. Nintendo programmed the game in a certain way, this is the game we're stuck with since they're apparently not planning on patching it.
Just because jab locks were unintentional doesn't mean they weren't programmed into the game. Since every single part of the jab lock makes perfect sense in terms of the game engine, it's not even a glitch.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
*beats dead horse*
Ats may not be INTENTIONALLY programmed in, but they are still programmed into the game. The glitchy/vulnerable to exploits conditions were specifically programmed in, the programmers just did realize that they were glitchy/vulnerable to exploits at the time.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Brawl is less balanced than Melee. Did anyone see the placings of Mass Madness? 4 of the top 5 placers in the tourny used Snake and the other guy used Metaknight. These two characters DOMINATE every other character in this game.
Let's take a look back at Melee. Low tier characters still stood somewhat of a chance, considering who used them and how much they practiced them. The best Mew2/Pichu/Ness would all beat my fox, who is top tier. Also, Bum beat all the top ranked players at the time with DK. In Brawl, the best captain falcon in the world would lose to my diddy kong. That's just the way it is. Certain characters have absolutely no chance at winning large tournaments.
Also, lucas and ness can be infinitely grabbed, how's that for balance?
Let's take a look back at Melee. Low tier characters still stood somewhat of a chance, considering who used them and how much they practiced them. The best Mew2/Pichu/Ness would all beat my fox, who is top tier. Also, Bum beat all the top ranked players at the time with DK. In Brawl, the best captain falcon in the world would lose to my diddy kong. That's just the way it is. Certain characters have absolutely no chance at winning large tournaments.
Also, lucas and ness can be infinitely grabbed, how's that for balance?
goodkid
Smash Lord
The players from Mass Madness were always the top players. They just all happened to choose Snake. This game seems a lot more balanced than Melee, just a lot of characters aren't getting enough rep.
People are utilizing Snake and Meta Knight for what reasons? They see advantages with them and as such, ferment their own position by using the character to a degree of skill. As time goes on, people realize that every character has a mental aspect of the user itself. Before, Chu Dat would go to a tournament and show off his Ice Climbers. People probably thought he was a laughing stock, then he showed it off, and well...beasted.
The point is, every character can justify it's own position to a degree. Every person reacts different, finding out an obscure way to fight in an unorthodox or 'new' fashion could very well place Yoshi over Snake. Now, until the time occurs, Snake is superior to Yoshi.
Now, I'd like to state one thing. People are saying Brawl isn't balanced or that it is balanced, thus making judgement. Making ANY judgement is stating the 'tier' level of characters. As such, any one argueing either side is actually supporting tiers as there is one tier, or several. The possibility of eradicated tiers can not exist, and as such, superiority is always a key aspect.
Keep in mind, Rome was destroyed faster then it was built. To make a character perfect, you have to make sure it can fight well on every level. But to beat one, you only need to find ONE mistake. Thus, don't enter the game thinking 'Snake is broken' but rather 'Where is the missing piece'. It is evident by integers and functions shown throughout the mechanics that no character is perfect, learning curves are present. As such, find out something about yourself and then learn to adapt.
Don't complain that Brawl is balanced or not balanced, you usually are wrong. Only a truely valid argument should be used, anything else is stripping your intelligence from your own public image. A reputation is bathed in ridicule. Rather, you could have keep quiet and actually thought thoroughly. We are all intelligent enough to truely emerge victorious, but rather, dedication dictates our progress. Your only as strong as your biggest weakness. Don't **** up. It's quite a simple concept.
Visualizin the realism of life and actuality
**** the baddest, a persons status depends on salary.
The point is, every character can justify it's own position to a degree. Every person reacts different, finding out an obscure way to fight in an unorthodox or 'new' fashion could very well place Yoshi over Snake. Now, until the time occurs, Snake is superior to Yoshi.
Now, I'd like to state one thing. People are saying Brawl isn't balanced or that it is balanced, thus making judgement. Making ANY judgement is stating the 'tier' level of characters. As such, any one argueing either side is actually supporting tiers as there is one tier, or several. The possibility of eradicated tiers can not exist, and as such, superiority is always a key aspect.
Keep in mind, Rome was destroyed faster then it was built. To make a character perfect, you have to make sure it can fight well on every level. But to beat one, you only need to find ONE mistake. Thus, don't enter the game thinking 'Snake is broken' but rather 'Where is the missing piece'. It is evident by integers and functions shown throughout the mechanics that no character is perfect, learning curves are present. As such, find out something about yourself and then learn to adapt.
Don't complain that Brawl is balanced or not balanced, you usually are wrong. Only a truely valid argument should be used, anything else is stripping your intelligence from your own public image. A reputation is bathed in ridicule. Rather, you could have keep quiet and actually thought thoroughly. We are all intelligent enough to truely emerge victorious, but rather, dedication dictates our progress. Your only as strong as your biggest weakness. Don't **** up. It's quite a simple concept.
Visualizin the realism of life and actuality
**** the baddest, a persons status depends on salary.
Silent Wolf
...
I didnt enter, and dont even play brawl. >_>
eggz doesnt own it or play often either.
Conda
aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
That's cause there's a ginormous amount of people who flocked to Snake and MK. I'd be surprised if they weren't best represented in the tourney scene, since there's so darn many of them.
And many characters can get infinitely chaingrabbed in Brawl, as well as in melee. The chaingrab hardly affects Ness and Lucas's tier placement. If it did, then ICs are god tier, and everyone who can be CGd by Dedede and Falco are bottom tier.
sagemoon
Smash Lord
You entered doubles I'm pretty sure. Didnt pay much attention to your singles. I assumed you lost and then left early. Eggz doesnt play often, but ppl were like "noob tournament cuz i dont see eggz" then i was just pointing out that he was there. Then someone asked what he placed.
Radical Dreamer
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2007
- Messages
- 827
Melee feels about as balanced as Street Fighter 3. Brawl feels about as balanced as Marvel vs. Capcom 2.
Psychoace
Smash Champion
hmm I see all these threads about how chain grabbing should be banned and all this **** and then a lot of the people in here say brawl is more balanced. *is confused*
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
No. Infinites should be banned. Chaingrabs are fine. And honestly, Yuna, I just dont think anyone can answer this question. How many Ness players have you played? Olimar players? Good Diddys or Ptrainers? I guarantee you there are a great number of characters who have good players behind them who you haven't played. At that point, its hard to know if those characters aren't really competitive. Me for instance, i use Ness and Oli and I do pretty well. Won my local tourny, which isn't something big, but ill hopefully go to some closer tourneys. KDJ has a nasty shiek, and it does pretty well. Thats some mix up from the Snakes and Meta knights. But I think maybe an integral part of the balance is being lost by banning certain stages that should be Counterpickeable. For instance, I think Shadow Moses was specifically made with the intention for Vertical killers to CP it. The fact that you can infinite off a wall shouldn't be grounds to ban it. That should be grounds to ban the infinite. But thats my opinion.
GofG
Smash Champion
It has long since been the belief of the community, The_NZA, that a tournament director should go through a long list of non-character-related factors to ban, only banning a technique of the character for an absolute last resort if the alternative would be something like banning every stage but infinite glacier so that the technique could not be performed.
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
I just wanted to point out that Nintendo released three different versions of Ocarina of Time and three different versions of Melee. It took them a few years to release OoT 1.2 after 1.1, so we'll see. Nintendo has had a long history of releasing discrete, new versions of games and passing them off as originals.
thesage
Smash Hero
Dude, honestly, just stop. The cg against Ness and Lucas aren't that big of a deal. We had to deal with much worse in melee, lol.
I've got a question for you guys: Do you think that the chaingrabbing of Lucas and Ness would have caused as much drama if it had been with any other franchise's character(s)? Or do you think the fact it was Ness and Lucas specifically contributed to it?
This is not a trick question or anything, I just want to know what you guys think.
This is not a trick question or anything, I just want to know what you guys think.
Because it's not broken on other stages? Jab Locking on Final Destination. What? 30-ish damage, tops? Run away laser-spamming on any stage that isn't New Pork City or Hyrule Temple: Easy to catch up with. Any chaingrabs without a walk-off edge: Chaingrab will end sometime.
Yes, of course it did. Remember when it was discovered that DeDeDe had a true infinite on DK? It's literally "'til 999%". Not many people raised a fuzz. When this was discovered, tons of people whined. In fact, when I brought the DDD CG up, many of said people even said "That shouldn't be banned, this should!".
Psychoace
Smash Champion
But chaingrabbing is still ridiculously easy compared to melee and I feel that that's kinda what makes melee more balanced.
I say this with absolutely no sarcasm:
If you have a problem with infinite chain grabs, don't get grabbed! Seriously, if you know that you are in a match up where if you get grabbed, you are going to be pounded, then you should keep your distance, watch your spacing, and make sure not to get punished or YOU WILL. If you cannot face that, then quit playing. Get a counterpick. Pick up a chain grabber yourself. If, at the end of the day, you are getting beaten by this one tactic, then YOU are the one that should leave the competitive scene, not the move.
Were the ICs god tier in melee? No.
If you have a problem with infinite chain grabs, don't get grabbed! Seriously, if you know that you are in a match up where if you get grabbed, you are going to be pounded, then you should keep your distance, watch your spacing, and make sure not to get punished or YOU WILL. If you cannot face that, then quit playing. Get a counterpick. Pick up a chain grabber yourself. If, at the end of the day, you are getting beaten by this one tactic, then YOU are the one that should leave the competitive scene, not the move.
Were the ICs god tier in melee? No.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
I never understood Jab-locking. How exactly does that work?
Well, in Brawl, you no longer cause characters to stand up when you jab their fallen bodies. Instead, you just hit them and cause a certain amount of time where they aren't able to do anything. So you pretty much just slowly walk and do a single jab over and over because they can't get up.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Sounds horribly broken. Can every character do this?
From some old post on AiB:
Credit to CubaIsDeath for the video.
I saw this and I think it pretty much sucks, as in I'm dissapointed that it exists.
http://www.allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=1041
but at least Ness can do it. woohoo...
From the youtube description:
Mario: Jab
Dk: Jab
Metaknight: Jab and Dtilt
Marth: Jab (but only a certain part of the hitbox)
Samus: Jab
Kirby: Jab
Ness: Jab
Squirtle: Jab, Double Jab, and Ftilt
Link: Jab
Yoshi: Jab
Sonic: Jab
R.O.B.: Dtilt
Wolf: Nair
King Dedede: Jab (very hard to do)
Credit to CubaIsDeath for the video.
I saw this and I think it pretty much sucks, as in I'm dissapointed that it exists.
http://www.allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=1041
but at least Ness can do it. woohoo...
From the youtube description:
Mario: Jab
Dk: Jab
Metaknight: Jab and Dtilt
Marth: Jab (but only a certain part of the hitbox)
Samus: Jab
Kirby: Jab
Ness: Jab
Squirtle: Jab, Double Jab, and Ftilt
Link: Jab
Yoshi: Jab
Sonic: Jab
R.O.B.: Dtilt
Wolf: Nair
King Dedede: Jab (very hard to do)
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Sonic can do it, hell yeah. Jk, this looks so gay. Brawl just went down another notch in my book. Thanks for the help though.
Hyrus
Smash Journeyman
I think that, before we discuss balance, we discuss finding Nintendo some game testers. How something like chaingrabbing got past the designers, programmers, in house testing and then the game testers (if any) is really pathetic. I mean, every game has its glitches, but we shouldn't have to ban wall stages and work around horrendously obvious flaws in the mechanics just so the game isn't reduced to infinites/locks/or other trite spamming. Regardless of how breaking or not these things are, they shouldn't have been this easy or quick to discover.
Yes, if only the development team had someone with as good hindsight as you...
Or half a brain.
How many people needed more than 2 seconds to see that Mario's Final Smash is next to useless when compared to Marth's?
Shark Week
Smash Apprentice
bwuh?!
marth's only takes out one person and is easy to dodge, compared to mario's, which is better in both respects.
fallenangemon0
Smash Journeyman
Ok Yuna you lost me
. 1. when you say " overall game balance " do you mean EVERYTHING (all stages, items, etc)?
2. or only competitive play and its standards?
cause if you meant number two then I have no effing clue why youd just bring up final smashes when they arent even a part of competitive play in any way.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
To avoid Marth' FS you have to be using a move with super armor or be in the middle of a dodge to avoid it.
Why? Cause it freezes time.
Has the 1.5x the range of Ike's sword when it hits.
Marios?
Yeah just jump over it or get behind Mario.
fallenangemon0
Smash Journeyman
Yes.
I dont mean to double post but...
Bravo.
I agree in just about every way. ( not sarcasm )
The current tourney reasults are (as previously stated) a popularity contest at this point in time.
When a character has obvious advantages people will flock to that character. Lets say out of 50 equally skilled 25 people flock to Snake, and the rest just use other characters.
Now if all of those people stick to that character and remain that character, and if they all enter tourneys, arent the odds of one of the Snake players winning greater than the odds of some one not using snake winning, and arent tourney reasults what decide tier lists?
This example ONLY refers to the current state of Tourney winnings. More Snake and MK players=better odds of Snake and Metaknight players winning tourneys. Only a combination of time to build skill, counter tactics and more ATs will determine balance.
I dont mean to double post but...
Bravo.
I agree in just about every way. ( not sarcasm )The current tourney reasults are (as previously stated) a popularity contest at this point in time.
When a character has obvious advantages people will flock to that character. Lets say out of 50 equally skilled 25 people flock to Snake, and the rest just use other characters.
Now if all of those people stick to that character and remain that character, and if they all enter tourneys, arent the odds of one of the Snake players winning greater than the odds of some one not using snake winning, and arent tourney reasults what decide tier lists?
This example ONLY refers to the current state of Tourney winnings. More Snake and MK players=better odds of Snake and Metaknight players winning tourneys. Only a combination of time to build skill, counter tactics and more ATs will determine balance.
To be fair, in a 4-player game that's easier said than done (which is probably the only time final smashes will be used since pretty much all of us turn off items during 1-on-1 fights).
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
How about all of them use their brain and see Mario has the FS and then you know, jump over him?
Its not that ahrd to go OH CRAP MARIO HAS THE FS I BETTER GTFO!
With Marth if you are not already dodging you are gauranteed to die.
I'm confused as to why we are discussing final smashes at all.
And on that side note, Mario's FS is a terrific edgeguarding tool, and is generally easy to target against slow fallers like Jiggs and Samus. Marth's is terrific, but it is hard to knock other victims into it, and it is probably the worst FS to edgeguard with.
And on that side note, Mario's FS is a terrific edgeguarding tool, and is generally easy to target against slow fallers like Jiggs and Samus. Marth's is terrific, but it is hard to knock other victims into it, and it is probably the worst FS to edgeguard with.
Am I missing something? What's so special in the PAL version of Melee?
EDIT:
EDIT:
Uh, if Marth uses his FS, you can just dodge it. If he's not like touching you it's easily done by spamming the dodge button.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You can only dodge if youarein the middle of a dodge already.
if you are not dodging when he does it you have to be far away to dodge in time.
What mart uses an FS from far away though? Only nubs.
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