Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Zankoku]

Well i don't know if this is support enough for u, but i can play with every single character, and be just as good......granted I am much better with my main Pikachu, but that's cuz i play with him all of the time....

This seems less like a legitimate reason and more like personal experience playing with friends.

it's all about playing out your strength's while covering your weaknesses......whereas in melee, characters like fox, falco, and marth all dominated because of superior speed, and wavedashing and crap....

And in Brawl, Snake and Meta Knight are about as dominant in the tournament scene because Snake's got ridiculous power and an extremely good approach (mortar sliding), and Meta Knight is all about punishable lag - that is, lacking any of it in his attacks.

now in Brawl, they made it so that the slower characters have a fighting chance, because they boosted up their power because it is harder for them to land a hit......and characters who rely on speed, don't do as much damage per hit, but they can get more hits in.................................need more?

Didn't this kind of apply to Melee, too? Ganondorf only needed to land an average of six hits before your stock was gone.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

SwastikaPyle and others arguing for a Well-Balanced Brawl:
When Azen wins a significant tournament with Sonic, Falcon, or Yoshi we'll all come clean and admit that Brawl is perfectly balanced. Until that day just take for granted that we know what were talking about when we say that Brawl is really UnBalanced.

I made this long post in response and got the dreaded 'database error' message that appears so common, so I'll just try and skim over quick what I wrote.

I am not trying to say that Brawl is more balanced then Melee. I am arguing that the game is still quite well balanced. My main problem with the arguments I see from the 3000+ post accounts is what seems to be double standards.

I point to Azen doing great with Lucario, and that is stated as 'Well, that's only one guy.'
Meanwhile, a few tens of pages back and in the tier discussion thread, there was posts raving about how awesome Fumi was with Yoshi and how this was a good example of how Melee was balanced.

And now, for you to admit that Brawl is balanced, someone would have to win with ultra low tiers. I ask you this: Can you point me to any Melee tournaments with a Yoshi winning? Or a Bowser? If you can't, then are you still willing to call Melee balanced?

EDIt: Anokoku, I would seriously just not bother replying to those guys. How the hell do you have the patience to keep telling the same guy the same thing?

 

[thumbswayup]

You can't use Azen alone as an example, he's Azen. That's like telling me to win a tournament with Mew2 because Taj can. You didn't win with Mew2 in Melee unless you were Taj. The same applies to Azen's Lucario. Besides, Lucario is actually a good character. Azen would never be able to beat Forte's MK with someone like, oh you know, IKE *waits to have to explain that Forte became well known by destroying Azen's Ike*

 

[krehz]

ya i see your point, but the whole thing is that they didn't BALANCE the power, for example Bowser is normally considered a slow character not very good, with moves like his Neutral A twice in a row, that is a very fast move that can be used to stop faster attacks, so he has a better defense. And swastika has a good point, I haven't heard of anyone winning a tourney with like an average character like say mario or anything, but now they made it possible by balancing out the gameplay, and making it harder to edgehogg and wavedash.....and also making sure that all the characters have a good speed/power comparison

 

[Zankoku]

From looking at previous tournaments, Azen seems quite content with picking any ****ed character on the roster, sticking with that character the entire tourney, losing only to Chillin and Forte, and placing third. He's done it with like, 6 different characters now.

ya i see your point, but the whole thing is that they didn't BALANCE the power, for example Bowser is normally considered a slow character not very good, with moves like his Neutral A twice in a row, that is a very fast move that can be used to stop faster attacks, so he has a better defense.

...Which still fails in a very big way against projectiles.

And swastika has a good point, I haven't heard of anyone winning a tourney with like an average character like say mario or anything, but now they made it possible by balancing out the gameplay, and making it harder to edgehogg and wavedash.....and also making sure that all the characters have a good speed/power comparison

I've seen Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, and Mewtwo take first in local-level tournaments. That said, the game is not perfectly balanced, and I have no idea how you could even see it as such.

Claims that have absolutely no legitimate support:
Melee is extremely unbalanced
Melee is perfectly balanced
Brawl is extremely unbalanced
Brawl is perfectly balanced

 

[krehz]

and how many do u think he could do in Brawl? prob like 25 of em, maybe even all.......even jigglypuff is good now and i have won a ton of Brawls with Jiggly...

 

[thumbswayup]

True, but he did place 4th at one tourny using Wolf, and that was god**** hilarious. Course it was M2k who knocked him out with DDD. Boss actually told me that when Azen wakes up in the morning he picks random on the the Brawl roster and whichever character gets picked is the one he uses for the next tourny.

 

[krehz]

Which just proves that even he feels he can play good with any character.........which means he feels it is more balanced..........how much u wanna bet he would not do that in Melee?

 

[Zema]

I would like to say yes, but I don't have anything to back that up.. so...

 

[thumbswayup]

Which just proves that even he feels he can play good with any character.........which means he feels it is more balanced..........how much u wanna bet he would not do that in Melee?

He did do that in Melee. He went low tier like Link and Luigi in most of his early tournaments.

 

[Zankoku]

Which just proves that even he feels he can play good with any character.........which means he feels it is more balanced..........how much u wanna bet he would not do that in Melee?

lol, please brush up on your Smash history before saying such things.

 

[krehz]

ya well how far did he get with the low tiers?

 

[Zankoku]

He won a major tournament with Luigi.

Azen is known as the "Master of Diversity" because he can play nearly every character in the game at a high level. He has placed in the top 10 of big tournaments using characters like Samus, Link and Pikachu.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

ya well how far did he get with the low tiers?

Top placement in major tournaments, just like in Brawl.

Ankoku ninja posted before me

 

[gantrain05]

Since it was relevant a page ago, I think I'll point out that I am a Game Design student as well. We made a game that was so good that the school paid our whole way to GDC to show it and the school off. I am currently looking into internships mostly at Insomniac, Id, and one of the many, many Sony companies.

Now that you know that, I would like to say that Brawl is horribly unbalanced.

you don't have to be a game design student to know when a game isnt balanced, but ur still right, brawl is not balanced, but i also think melee is not balanced, if they were TRULY balanced characters like pichu and bowser could win tourneys in melee and ganon would be winning in brawl, it wouldnt be all MK and snake in brawl and shiek/marth/fox/falco in melee.

 

[St. Viers]

^^gimpyfish won tournies with bowser, and managed to get 2nd place w/ bowser in his first huge california tournie.

KDJ has gone though tournies using pichu, only going shiek in the finals.

There, that point out of the way.

Also, melee was about the same thing, making advantage and covering weaknesses. However, thanks to wavedashing and l-canceling, the slower characters were able to even the field--because of these , lower tiered chars could gimp fox falco relatively easily.

Also, anyone who says melee was balanced is an idiot--this is asking which game was MORE balanced, not hwich one has perfect balance

 

[RDK]

^^gimpyfish won tournies with bowser, and managed to get 2nd place w/ bowser in his first huge california tournie.

KDJ has gone though tournies using pichu, only going shiek in the finals.

There, that point out of the way.

Also, melee was about the same thing, making advantage and covering weaknesses. However, thanks to wavedashing and l-canceling, the slower characters were able to even the field--because of these , lower tiered chars could gimp fox falco relatively easily.

Also, anyone who says melee was balanced is an idiot--this is asking which game was MORE balanced, not hwich one has perfect balance

Melee wasn't perfectly balanced, but the underlying character tweaks (like fast-falling in space animals that made them more comboable) are on the verge of being subenius. It's almost an MvC2 situation, where it's so unbalanced that it becomes balanced. Characters have ridiculous counters, but the fact remains that every character has them.

 

[Yuna]

I am not trying to say that Brawl is more balanced then Melee. I am arguing that the game is still quite well balanced. My main problem with the arguments I see from the 3000+ post accounts is what seems to be double standards.

The topic at hand is whether Brawl is more balanced than Melee. If you're discussing something else, then please make it clear you are doing so from the very beginning.

I point to Azen doing great with Lucario, and that is stated as 'Well, that's only one guy.'
Meanwhile, a few tens of pages back and in the tier discussion thread, there was posts raving about how awesome Fumi was with Yoshi and how this was a good example of how Melee was balanced.

I don't. Ankoku doesn't. And I'm pretty sure many of the "3000+ post accounts" in this thread do not. Stupid people in an unrelated thread are stupid people!

And now, for you to admit that Brawl is balanced, someone would have to win with ultra low tiers. I ask you this: Can you point me to any Melee tournaments with a Yoshi winning? Or a Bowser? If you can't, then are you still willing to call Melee balanced?

No, but I can tell you this: Mewtwo had a way better chance against Fox and Falco than Ganondorf against Snake and Meta-Knight.

Which just proves that even he feels he can play good with any character.........which means he feels it is more balanced..........how much u wanna bet he would not do that in Melee?

He did do that in Melee. He went low tier like Link and Luigi in most of his early tournaments.

Early tournaments? He did as late as at least 2007, going low tier all the way. And he always placed quite well.

 

[thumbswayup]

Early tournaments? He did as late as 2006 and 2007, going low tier all the way. And he always placed quite well.

I know, I was just comparing that to these early tournaments for Brawl. I was going to add that he continued to do so later, but just got to lazy.

 

[lipidlad]

Through personal experience, i have to say that Brawl-for the most part- is more balanced. I mean to say that, despite what characters are ranked best or worst, every character is solid and playable. A decent yoshi can beat a meta-knight, and Bowser can destroy Zero Suit Samus. Im not big into "advanced techniques," or the opinions of the pros, or tourney results. Really, how the game plays depends on who your competition is. I play against people who destroy as Ganondorf yet suck as Metaknight. It really matters in how the character is used,despite any statistics or conclusions of the entire smash community. Any character CAN be good!

 

[KernelColonel]

No, but I can tell you this: Mewtwo had a way better chance against Fox and Falco than Ganondorf against Snake and Meta-Knight.

That's because Ganondorf VERY SPECIFICALLY has bad match-ups against Snake and Meta-knight. It has nothing to do with tier balance, it's entirely based on Ganondorf-balance.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

That's because Ganondorf VERY SPECIFICALLY has bad match-ups against Snake and Meta-knight. It has nothing to do with tier balance, it's entirely based on Ganondorf-balance.

Now that you mention it, I've never seen a good Mewtwo vid. It would really help for determining balance between the games.

EDIT: The quote was different before I used it, and was editted. It was originally a request for a Mewtwo vid as evidence of balance/ not balance.

 

[Samochan]

Now that you mention it, I've never seen a good Mewtwo vid. It would really help for determining balance between the games.

EDIT: The quote was different before I used it, and was editted. It was originally a request for a Mewtwo vid as evidence of balance/ not balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PzDyzBwXb4

Taj isn't the only one with awesome mewtwo, just to note people.

Ek and Amsah also play good mewtwo's in europe.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

Through personal experience, i have to say that Brawl-for the most part- is more balanced. I mean to say that, despite what characters are ranked best or worst, every character is solid and playable. A decent yoshi can beat a meta-knight, and Bowser can destroy Zero Suit Samus. Im not big into "advanced techniques," or the opinions of the pros, or tourney results. Really, how the game plays depends on who your competition is. I play against people who destroy as Ganondorf yet suck as Metaknight. It really matters in how the character is used,despite any statistics or conclusions of the entire smash community. Any character CAN be good!

i agree with u exactly

 

[Corigames]

NOtes on things in thread

I may overreact because I am used to talk with people kindly, but this forums are filled with insolent stupid brats like you.

OMG, I think I've stumbled upon the exact definition of hypocrisy!!!

That's like telling me to win a tournament with Mew2 because Taj can. You didn't win with Mew2 in Melee unless you were Taj.

Actually, he used Marth and Fox in tournament play against non-scrubs. Just pointing that out.

Taj isn't the only one with awesome mewtwo, just to note people.

No, but he is the best.

 

[Samochan]

No, but he is the best.

I know... but since everyone knows taj I wanted to add little kaito in the mix.

 

[RDK]

Now that you mention it, I've never seen a good Mewtwo vid. It would really help for determining balance between the games.

EDIT: The quote was different before I used it, and was editted. It was originally a request for a Mewtwo vid as evidence of balance/ not balance.

Taj, Iori, M2K, etc. The list goes on. Youtube is your friend.

Also, in the future, try not to enter into debates in which you have no past experience or knowledge about. Your lack of Melee knowledge is really frustrating, especially when people have to give you evidence, quotes, and videos, and you still spout off nonsense.

 

[St. Viers]

That's because Ganondorf VERY SPECIFICALLY has bad match-ups against Snake and Meta-knight. It has nothing to do with tier balance, it's entirely based on Ganondorf-balance.

No ganondorf specifically has bad matchups against characters with speed, projectiles and range. Which is almost all the cast.

Don't make unfounded assumptions. Ganon has decent matchups against some of the lower tiered chars (falcon, jiggz, maybe yoshi, kirby), but he has all around bad matchups, not just against the top

 

[Mr.C]

I love when people come in here and say stuff like

"I personally believe Brawl is more balanced"

then the next sentence is usually

"I don't know any of the "advanced techniques" nor am I part of the competitive scene, but every characters feels solid and very playable"

lol your opinion counts!

 

[St. Viers]

^^^mean, but kinda true

 

[IrArby]

For those aruging about how imbalanced Melee is/was:

Low Tier players still stood a chance against higher tiers as long as they were played by skilled smashers Taj, Azen, Chu, Gimpy, etc. Generally, to win they had to be noticeably more skilled and smarter then the high tier players they versed. Lastly, they had some advantages since many players were not always knowledgable about methods for defeating more tournament obscure characters. If they didn't figure out new strategies by Game 2 of the set then they lose and wind up in a low tier combo video or something.

These are 3 different requirements that were neccesary (to a degree) for players to succeed with the low and bottom tiers. M2K (as Marth or Fox) wouldn't lose to Taj's M2 since 1. M2K is as smart as any smasher, 2.M2K is the ****ing robot so he's super skilled, and 3. even if M2K wasn't familar with how to play this particular matchup (which I'm sure he probably is) he'd figure it out pretty quickly were as many smashers wouldn't (me included).

So yes Melee is unbalanced.

To play low tier in Brawl and defeat high tiers (say MK or Snake) these same 3 criteria exist. However, they exist to such a degree that you can actually narrow down those three to one single criteria.

1. To beat the high tier player with your low tier char, the high tier player must suck balls!

If the high tier player is relatively smart, or skilled he will win. Skill doesn't come into play since Brawl is commonly understood to not require a great deal of technical skill. And the 3rd option is now moot. This player doesn't even have to be super familar with this particular matchup. MK/Snake have abilities that allow them to win most matchups with a very small degree of adaption. They can play yoshi they same way they play link or falcon or sonic or ike. Adjusting (to a significant degree so don't quote this then pick out individual unimportant aspects of ike's up B to try and refute this argument) is not neccesary.

Does anyone know how to unlock all the levels? I think I gotta just gotta beat all the events but I don't want to waste time if thats wrong. I need to know since I'm supplying a Brawl setup for a tourney tommorow and haven't bothered to play most of the Brawl modes other than SSE and normal Brawl mode.
Thanks in advance.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Does anyone know how to unlock all the levels? I think I gotta just gotta beat all the events but I don't want to waste time if thats wrong. I need to know since I'm supplying a Brawl setup for a tourney tommorow and haven't bothered to play most of the Brawl modes other than SSE and normal Brawl mode.
Thanks in advance.

Go to Gamefaqs or Brawl Central to learn how to unlock everything.
If you're running a tourney, you'll probably only be playing on like 5 stages anyway, lol.

 

[Corigames]

Well, it's either those 5 stages or stages that you and your opponent have to fight instead of each-other.

 

[IrArby]

Thanks OrlanduEX: I just really needed to know since you can only set nuetral stages to random once you've unlocked all the stages. Anyone looking to flame/argue with the rest of my earlier post: I probably won't respond to you until tommorow since I've got tons of **** to do.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

If the high tier player is relatively smart, or skilled he will win. Skill doesn't come into play since Brawl is commonly understood to not require a great deal of technical skill. And the 3rd option is now moot. This player doesn't even have to be super familar with this particular matchup. MK/Snake have abilities that allow them to win most matchups with a very small degree of adaption. They can play yoshi they same way they play link or falcon or sonic or ike. Adjusting (to a significant degree so don't quote this then pick out individual unimportant aspects of ike's up B to try and refute this argument) is not neccesary.\

While I agree MK can play everyone the just about the same way, Snake can't. I've tried. His attacks are simply too technical and situational for him to win every battle exactly the same way or even in similar ways, because of how his attacks match up to his opponent. Snake can easily punish one of Ike's stupid moves with a C4 stick, but can't do this to MK. Snake would be ill-advised to try tilts on Pit, but would do better using his missile to counter arrows, then dropping it on Pit's head before it can be reflected. If Snake uses relatively the same tactics in every battle, he will lose.

 

[Corigames]

Unless "winning" is a tactic. In that case, it's universal for him.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It is easy to call someone a troll and feel superior. Those pathetics brats that start flaming others who think different than them... those are the trolls. Like yourself.

The way you flame someone who talk good things about Brawl demonstrate your hate for the game. So if you don't want to turn this into a flame war ( in which I don't wish to participate), shut up and don't mess with me.

I lol'ed at this post. Superiority? ****, I KNOW I wasn't much better than you when I retaliated. I don't care; at least I have the balls to admit that I was blatantly insulting your ***---whereas you go on, using the interwebz as an excuse to be a raging badass in one post and then trying to cover it up as quickly as possible with another. As coreygames said, "I think we've stumbled across the meaning of hypocrisy." Maybe if you would've came here with some solid arguments (like Samurai Panda or Alpha Zealot would on occasion) then perhaps you wouldn't have been received so poorly. But, no, you just run off at the fingertips and promulgate your fandom without a care.

Never mind the purpose of this thread, which is to debate the nature of balance between two games. No, you just wanna talk about how smooth and how non-glitchy Brawl is and deify it. That's not the point of the god**** thread, man. We're stripping it bare-bones here, talking about the developing (?) scene of Brawl versus what has been established scene in Melee. Compare and contrast---you know, those stupid little exercises you did in grade school and middle school with the flowcharts displaying "apples and oranges?" That is what's going on here. We don't care how pretty Brawl is---it doesn't factor into playability or how characters play. If you're as inexperienced as you say you are at the game, there are forums here to increase your knowledge about Brawl (because that **** you spouted off about MK and Snake's pros/cons? Totally uninformed) and even areas of the forum where you can go to increase your knowledge about Melee (again, something that I believe you're not very knowledgeable in). Don't just come in here shooting at the ****ing hip and expecting everybody to agree with you. Form a decent argument with facts first and stay true to the heart of the topic.

Oh, and for the record? I don't hate Brawl that much. It was worth the fifty bucks I paid for it (when I had it). Do I think it's a game I'd be attending tournaments for? Not really. It's not as deep and as robust as Melee is and is less fun IN THAT SORT OF ENVIRONMENT. Don't go saying that my flaming mirrors my sentiments for a video game. I could give two ****s and a flying **** about a game. What I care about are people like you, coming into a thread and just throwing all the precepts of debate out the window. Yes, and that even includes the Melee supporters that randomly spout off "LOL BRAWL SUX" without giving a good argument---so don't go throwing people under the god**** boat.

Please stop posting and go back to making your little flash games over the interwebz. You're making an *** out of yourself and I for one am tired of putting up with it.

Smooth Criminal

 

[RDK]

THE ****ING FURY

-Smooth Criminal

DAAAAYYYYYUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMm!!!11!!

 

[IrArby]

Smooth Criminal: I beleive the term is Shooting from the hip not at. Just had to get a correction in b4 Witchking did. lol

If you shoot at the hip people will start calling you "The HipBreaker" and if they start doing that everyone else is gonna think you have a thing for doing Old Ladys. See how these common mistakes can get really out of hand.

Oh yea and dayyyuuuuummmmm. It definely feels like this thread is being overrun. They're even posting in Melee threads now (if you know of whom I speak).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No, but I can tell you this: Mewtwo had a way better chance against Fox and Falco than Ganondorf against Snake and Meta-Knight.

This is a poor example.

Mewtwo is extremely good against fast fallers like Fox and Falco, making him and ironically Pichu, good counter picks against the space animals. The low was good against the top, but stank against the rest of the cast.