brawl hate, a natural part of competive sequals (historical perspective)

[Sirami]

Brawl has arrived. finally! however as with the release of any new game, oppinons are flowing from everywhere.

then there is the common remarks:
"melee > brawl"
"brawl feels empty compared to melee"


this is only natural.

PC and FPS players have immense experience with changing versions of a game all while under the stress of competitive play. This happens with all games, such as going from counter strike 1.6 to source. or team fortress to teamfortress 2.

however FPS players have experience in paradigm shifts.

nintendo players... do not, so alot of them whine and cry more so then the FPS players.


It took 1.6 players close to 2 years to fully explore Source. when it was first released, there was the players who embraced all changes, and those who said that 1.6 will always be the competitive version. this always happens and results from players trying to adapt using all knowledge from the old game, instead of learning the new game fresh from the start. everything said here on these forums have been repeated on many others for many years, before melee even came out.


in the end, all the brawl haters will wash out or collect in a small unoticable group. brawl will slowly but surely develop a massive library of techniques and strategies.

was wavedashhing discovered in even the first month of melee? of course not.



patience.... patience is key here, and we just have to remember teenagers dont have much patience


FLETCH-
"I wish you had better examples... I played through both of those transitions, and was honestly very happy with them. Melee --> Brawl feels very different, and that's why I'm scared this is not such a good transition."

-an upcoming example will be StarCraft II, all the origional players will surely have stuff to complain about

-CS 1.6 >> Source
-Team Fortress >> TF2
-SSB 64 >> Melee
-all of the Quakes
-Halo >> Halo 2
-Halo 2 >> Halo 3

Right, right, but there are more examples out there where the game is just generally dissliked.

Examples: TTT >>> T4, and SC2 >> SC3.

This might be one of those examples, and it might not be. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Starcraft to Starcraft 2 will be interesting, but not a great example because the game is actually doing the opposite of what Halo 3/SSBB did, and thats the the developers are working with professional players to make sure the game is deep and of the traditional balance that the first starcrafts were.

Comparing Halo to Halo 2 to Halo 3 is the best example. Halo was considered amazing, and still is, and when halo 2 was released many people were not pleased, but slowly people started discovering things that made Halo 2 deep in its own right and highly technical (BxR/Double shot). Bungie went away from these glitches and blatantly removed them from Halo 2 to Halo 3, much to the discontent of competitive players. This is the best cross example between melee/Brawl. Brawl removed many of Melee better/accidentally amazing attributes. The thing is, Halo 3 is still plenty competitive and the initial post is right, eventually the haters will just become a silent minority or leave the scene completely. Brawl will be plenty competitive and I think eventually will be as deep as Melee. The biggest thing is that the thinking is still there in Brawl, just as it is still there in Halo 3. The best Halo 2 players are still among the best Halo 3 players (or are the best, FB/St8 Rippin/Carbon all made at least top 8 in the 3000+ team free entry online tournament MLG just held). The best Melee players will probably continue to dominate in Brawl, possibly to an even worse extent now that you can tech the hell out of the opponent anymore. Azen is still amazing, enough said.

 

[Sirami]

Starcraft to Starcraft 2 will be interesting, but not a great example because the game is actually doing the opposite of what Halo 3/SSBB did, and thats the the developers are working with professional players to make sure the game is deep and of the traditional balance that the first starcrafts were.

Comparing Halo to Halo 2 to Halo 3 is the best example. Halo was considered amazing, and still is, and when halo 2 was released many people were not pleased, but slowly people started discovering things that made Halo 2 deep in its own right and highly technical (BxR/Double shot). Bungie went away from these glitches and blatantly removed them from Halo 2 to Halo 3, much to the discontent of competitive players. This is the best cross example between melee/Brawl. Brawl removed many of Melee better/accidentally amazing attributes. The thing is, Halo 3 is still plenty competitive and the initial post is right, eventually the haters will just become a silent minority or leave the scene completely. Brawl will be plenty competitive and I think eventually will be as deep as Melee. The biggest thing is that the thinking is still there in Brawl, just as it is still there in Halo 3. The best Halo 2 players are still among the best Halo 3 players (or are the best, FB/St8 Rippin/Carbon all made at least top 8 in the 3000+ team free entry online tournament MLG just held). The best Melee players will probably continue to dominate in Brawl, possibly to an even worse extent now that you can tech the hell out of the opponent anymore. Azen is still amazing, enough said.

Yeah, well, another problem that Smash has is that the rest of the fighting game community has a really hard time accepting Brawl as a competitive fighting game. If it weren't for those advanced techniques, nobody outside of die-hard smash players would have taken it seriously.

Flat out, if WD, Just frames, BDC, and every other other advanced tech were removed from Tekken 5 to Tekken 6, Tekken 6 wouldn't make the cut, as far as being a huge display in major tournaments.

*shrugs*

 

[pika-power]

Disagreement: compared to the slow pace that we originally took in dissecting Melee, we are pouncing on this game and rapidly tearing it apart, trying to discover ANYTHING that could get an advanced technique named after ourselves. Although, maybe it's not that fast, but it's definitely MUCH more attention than Melee got at first.

On topic though, I'm loving brawl so far, and ready to continue the transition.

And we have found wave bouncing.

We also have found that sliding missile attack of snake's, and the roll-throw. Laser lock is discovered, along with 3d's infinite throw on certain characters.

There is a fair bit more than found for melee in that time. The thing is, no one is paying attention to these topics, because we are all too busy saying how much brawl sucks because it lacks AT.

Even if Melee did get the AT faster, we could still find something next year, when we are all playing melee, that will change the Metagame of brawl into one far better than melee.

Do not write Brawl off yet, we still can find more AT.

 

[YSM]

I've been saying this exact same thing. As a competitive Pokemon player, I've had to hear the constant whining when new games are released. WTF!!? FIRE PUNCH IS PHYSICAL!?!? OH NOES ALAKAZAM IS USELESS THE METAGAMES ARE RUINED!1! And then, people eventually learn to adapt, and they realize the new game is just as good as, if not better than, the previous installment. Honestly, it's best just to ignore the complainers. If you notice, most of the people who were REALLY good in Melee aren't whining at all.

 

[6footninja]

On a shorter reply, I simply wanna say thank you for making this thread.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Another example: Pokemon

From GSC to RSE, the way Pokemon develop their stats was altered significantly and in came the EV system and Natures. Many people hated this, this lead to mixed sweepers being dropped off in the early metagame, and giving rise to complex EV spreads as part of a moveset. Fans eventually adjusted and went with it.

And Pokemon players have also gone through the Special Split in GSC and in DP the types losing the physical/special property to individual attacks.

 

[Drik Khaail]

This thread makes me smile. the reactions, not so much. It's two sided, people who think that brawl is fun, people who think that it should be melee. I just want to say a couple things; it's a game. have fun. next;

Except Brawl is inferior to Melee.

The only enhancements were graphics, music, more characters, a better 1p mode.

In no way is this a melee killer, nore will it be.

I think he means Ness wasn't Buffed enough.

 

[SSBB4all]

There are some things I dont get in the world of gaming, and this one definately takes the cake. For some odd reason, there are always a group of idiots thinking that this game was going to be, "Melee 2.0" but when they played this new game, they start to rant about this game not being "competitive enough." In reality, YOU HAVENT BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME FOR EVEN A MONTH YET!!!! GIVE IT SOME FREAKIN TIME! The thing that scares me is that it isn't only Super Smash Bros, it's EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN COMPETITIVE GAME. Look at Halo 3. Look at Cod 4. When a new game comes out, there is going to be CHANGE. There are a lot of people in this world who can accept change. (In example Gimpyfish himself) I will quote from Gimpy. "This is NOT MELEE. THIS IS A WHOLE NEW GAME." Gimpy realized this, and now he is one of the most succesfull Brawl players to this day.

I will close by saying that as time goes by, more techniques will be dug up. Just because the game is slightly slower, characters are more balanced then their Melee counterparts, and there isn't wavedashing or l-canceling, it will ALWAYS be competitive. If you want to embrace this new game, then go ahead and join the Brawl! If you don't, have fun with Melee.

I do know though the main reason Melee is inferior to Brawl.... MELEE DONT GOT WI-FI! MUHAHAHHAH!

 

[LouisLeGros]

because sequels are always better and because everyone gave up on 1.6 and because the added auto aim in halo 2 made it so much more competitive and ... etc etc etc

 

[Corigames]

I think Mario Kart 64 > Any of the newer ones because of glitches and strategies that they took out.
I think Super Metroid > other Metroids because of techniques they took out.
I think MGS > Newer MGS games, for reasons I have yet to figure out.

People here speak as if, for some reason, that it is physically impossible to dislike something new... it is. Though, it may be hard to say, "It will never be competitive," considering it's new, that doesn't mean that people HAVE to give it that chance. When in comparison to picking up Melee for the first time, Brawl has a completely different feeling, a limitation more than an expansion. It feels like we were in the middle of a fight, and were winning. Then, suddenly, the enemy cuts us off, sabotages our weapons, and leaves us to fight with no back-up. That enemy is Brawl.

So, while you may not agree with people that the game is or is not good, don't tell people that their OPINION is wrong. I liked the Subspace Emissary part of the game... the 4 player "competition" was not. I don't like it. Deal with it. The more I see threads telling me to warm up and give it a try, the closer I am to snapping.

 

[Tabris-]

Ilearn to adapt

Key words, right there. That's what dissociates naturally good players from mediocre or bad players.

It's like when I used to play FPS and RTS games, I wouldn't be happy with every new patch that'd come out if it nerfed something I was particularly adept at, but I'd get used to it and my game would still be the same or I'd be playing better. It's like survival of the fittest, only with video games, not important for future generations and well, a bit more niche.

Of course, you'd always get the same people complaining about whatever needed to be patched next and the people who had to constantly use certain features, glitches or weapons in order to do well who'd just cry all day and night, talk about how the new changes are worthless and how company x is running game y into the ground.