Brawl 64 - Don't Get Hit

[ph00tbag]

Notice how players re-acted when I think... two people? Yeah, two people suggested that we add side-specials and down/up throws. Look at the argument it created.

The same would happen for Z-Cancelling.

It comeee down to: People are stubborn; deal with it.

It's completely different, because the game will not be better whether it has or doesn't have side-specials and down/upthrows. If you don't balance z-canceling, the game will be worse than if you did.

That is what I'm arguing. Now actually argue the point at issue.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's completely different, because the game will not be better whether it has or doesn't have side-specials and down/upthrows. If you don't balance z-canceling, the game will be worse than if you did.

That is what I'm arguing. Now actually argue the point at issue.

How can you say the game won't be better with side specials? They pretty obviously add competitive depth to the game and are, objectively, better.

What is there to argue? I've already agreed that Manual Z-Cancelling is worse than automatic, and Supreme Dirt has already said that it will be manual in this mod. I'm telling you that the Smash 64 community doesn't want it.

 

[ph00tbag]

How can you say the game won't be better with side specials? They pretty obviously add competitive depth to the game and are, objectively, better.

More options doesn't necessarily mean better. It just means different.

What is there to argue? I've already agreed that Manual Z-Cancelling is worse than automatic, and Supreme Dirt has already said that it will be manual in this mod. I'm telling you that the Smash 64 community doesn't want it.

I'm telling you the Smash 64 community doesn't know the first thing about designing a game, so don't go to them for advice on how to design one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

More options doesn't necessarily mean better. It just means different.

I'd love to know how you are defining "better" if you have come to that conclusion.

I'm telling you the Smash 64 community doesn't know the first thing about designing a game, so don't go to them for advice on how to design one.

God are you thick.

This isn't about game design, automatic Z-Cancelling is OBVIOUSLY better and no one is arguing with you on that. It's about game marketing.

One of the most competitive and deepest fighting games in existence, Virtua Fighter, has a ridiculously small player base despite the afore-mentioned good things going for it.

Is it worth making Z-Cancelling better if it means that the game will lose a large chunk of it's player base? No, no it isn't.

 

[Magus420]

No Trajectory DI [Magus]
04B88524 00000000

 

[ph00tbag]

I'd love to know how you are defining "better" if you have come to that conclusion.

More universally enjoyable.

God are you thick.

This isn't about game design, automatic Z-Cancelling is OBVIOUSLY better and no one is arguing with you on that. It's about game marketing.

One of the most competitive and deepest fighting games in existence, Virtua Fighter, has a ridiculously small player base despite the afore-mentioned good things going for it.

Is it worth making Z-Cancelling better if it means that the game will lose a large chunk of it's player base? No, no it isn't.

Then why bother balancing it at all! You yourself have suggested drastically altering other elements of the game in the name of balance, but on this issue, you're as stubborn as a mule. And you call me thick.

Also, marketing my hairy butt-crack. You won't make money off this game. Besides, if they wouldn't even try the game with such an element, then they're thicker than either one of us, and probably wouldn't go for the game you propose, either.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

More universally enjoyable.

So... You define "better" as something that is entirely subjective right after using it in an objective way ("the game will not be better whether it has or doesn't have side-specials and down/upthrows")

Then why bother balancing it at all! You yourself have suggested drastically altering other elements of the game in the name of balance, but on this issue, you're as stubborn as a mule. And you call me thick.

I support drastically altering things in the name of balance.
I KNEW players wouldn't like the removal of Z-Cancelling.
I DIDN'T know if the players wouldn't like the addition of Side-Specials, Up Throws and Down Throws.

Also, marketing my hairy butt-crack. You won't make money off this game. Besides, if they wouldn't even try the game with such an element, then they're thicker than either one of us, and probably wouldn't go for the game you propose, either.

1. The goal of the game should be to provide enjoyment.
2. The game will mostly be played by competitive players.
3. Competitive players find competition fun.
4. Less players means less competirion.

Pretty simple stuff.

I know lots of people who wouldn't play because of the lack of Z-Cancelling.
Now consider all the people those people would introduce the game to.
Then consider the people who would quit because of a lack of players.

 

[King Funk]

Wow... This is just hilarious. All the people here who don't know **** about what they're talking about.

This game should be EXACTLY like smash 64, even the stupid things like z-canceling, all the physics, EVERYTHING, or else you won't get anyone interested in it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wow... This is just hilarious. All the people here who don't know **** about what they're talking about.

This game should be EXACTLY like smash 64, even the stupid things like z-canceling, all the physics, EVERYTHING, or else you won't get anyone interested in it.

Why don't I know what I'm talking about? That's what I've been saying pretty much.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why don't I know what I'm talking about? That's what I've been saying pretty much.

I think he was just saying all the people who don't know what they're talking about are hilarious.

Also, I'm really not sure how people can complain about something like having a forward b or up and down throw, when they add depth >.>

I mean really, Project M isn't taking out brawl things that add depth just because they weren't in melee, so why take out things in brawl that add depth just because they weren't in 64 when it won't directly change the gameplay? They'll only add to it.

Taking out DI is fine because it would mess with every single 64 combo like ever, taking out wall-teching is needed as well.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

here:

make super smash bros. 64...with brawl characters.

there, there is your project, don't add melee physics, get rid of everything brawl.. keep the brawl characters though.

also, please, please, PLEASE, keep the damn hitboxes the same, i know most are disjointed and broken, but it's so much fun with huge hitboxes.

Taking out DI is fine because it would mess with every single 64 combo like ever, taking out wall-teching is needed as well.

NO. DON'T TAKE OUT DI.

smash64 uses DI more then people know, i hate it when people say DI is useless in smash 64, when it's not.

64 hitstun+brawl DI= bad
64 hitsun+64 DI= Good

64 DI is different then brawl DI, and that's because the hitstuns are much more different, in 64, let's say..you get upsmashed if you DI into a wall, you can still survive, this also works for if you are getting edgegaurded, it works MIRICALES.

also, keep the special things about smash 64 with certain characters

this includes:

Fox's shine cancel
DK's congo hold/DK's ability to grab into any move
Link's no clip boomerang/ Bomb recovery (even though it doesn't work that well anyways)
YOSHI DJC PARRY (for the love of god, please keep this, also, make it so you can djc attacks also)
NESS DJC MOVES
Taunt ledge canceling
pivots

and other stuff my smash 64 companions can think of.

also, i wouldn't care for wall teching, i think you could do some neat **** with it, but i digress, it's not 64 so either way.

Wow... This is just hilarious. All the people here who don't know **** about what they're talking about.

This game should be EXACTLY like smash 64, even the stupid things like z-canceling, all the physics, EVERYTHING, or else you won't get anyone interested in it.

keep this in mind, thought i'd ninja this in here.

 

[Zef]

LOL Z Cancel argument.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

for me, it's either "oh wow now it just cancels itself mite b cool" or "oh well i know how to z-cancel fluently anyways MOVING ON."

also to the op, come visit our nifty little social thread, we'd be more then oblidged to give you some more pointers.

 

[MonkUnit]

Seems like you guys didn't see Magus' post on SSB64 DI. He just gave you a code for DI. I suggest you use it, Supreme Dirt.

 

[standardtoaster]

Don't use the code I made for no side specials. Yes, it will get rid of them, but changing a sideB to a neutralB is easy enough through PSA.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

LOL Z Cancel argument.

I haven't play it, but it seems kind of interting, I haven't read all the previous post either, so...
does it Z-Cancel as in SSB64? or it still sucks at Z-Cancel?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

wait, i would like to add this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290204

this is a thread that is a hypothetical remake suggestion, and has alot of what the 64 community wants out of a 'new' smash64 game.

i'd advise you to read it, along with everyone else in this thread.

 

[Fireblaster]

If that was the case, any Puff vs. Falcon, Puff vs. Puff and Falcon vs. Falcon matches would be incredibly campy.

They actually are. Thanks for proving my point.

Which isn't the case at all in my experience.

Your experience must be miniscule.

Also, every match AGAINST a Falcon or Puff would force the non-falcon/puff player to be campy. Again, that isn't true as far as I can see.

This is actually pretty much the case. Few characters in SSB64 actually have the ability to approach well, so in this case the character with a weaker approach is forced to defend.

That was my problem with your previous post, you gave an example of two characters who worked fine with combo throws and then went on about how combo throws screw up the game.

If you read what I had said, I said that most of the time these throw combos from falcon and jigglypuff mostly lead to damage and not death.

Also, don't listen to Soupamario about DI. I don't think he understands the difference between trajectory DI and smash DI.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

sorta don't, don't really have that much of a grasp on DI, but i know how to do it.

but supposing:

trajectory DI: DI that can be done after being hit?

smash DI: DI that..idk.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Throws I can understand-adding combo throws to smash 64 is ridiculous. But ditching side specials is just a little off. Why should we? Many are kinda a big deal. Like rollout; how good would that move be in smash 64? Or samus's missiles?

 

[Fireblaster]

Throws I can understand-adding combo throws to smash 64 is ridiculous. But ditching side specials is just a little off. Why should we? Many are kinda a big deal. Like rollout; how good would that move be in smash 64? Or samus's missiles?

The more you make things like brawl/melee, the less this becomes a Smash 64 2.0 and more like Brawl with lots of hitstun added to it.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

trajectory DI: DI that can be done after being hit?

That DI definition is applicable for both, so that's not what it is.

 

[standardtoaster]

Already made an auto Z cancel code a while ago. :V

No aerials landing lag [standardtoaster]
04FC27E0 00020000
04FC27E8 00020000

 

[shanus]

Don't use the code I made for no side specials. Yes, it will get rid of them, but changing a sideB to a neutralB is easy enough through PSA.

or just remap sideB special in fighter.pac to point to neutral b.


edit:

actually nop out cchange action 113 and then alter the additional reqs on the 112 to not have a minimum requirement for icba 1013

 

[Flayl]

I'm torn because firebreath and bowser bomb are moves that Bowser actually uses in Mario games, but any of the two OverB he has had are more useful.

If shield stun is like I remember it being in smash 64, fortress is a lot less useful too. Anybody got a creative idea for that?

you would have to make bowser a true monster if he has to rely on not getting hit lol

 

[ph00tbag]

Oh I get it.

You still think I want z-canceling removed.

God, you're thick.

 

[Zef]

**** off about z-cancelling it's obviously staying in regardless of what you want

 

[UltiMario]

Just to silence anyone that wants game changes for it being "Smash 64 2.0"

The 2.0 part is where you triple the size of the cast and quadruple the amount of stages. I think that's a suitable enough amount of changes for a 2.0.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just to silence anyone that wants game changes for it being "Smash 64 2.0"

The 2.0 part is where you triple the size of the cast and quadruple the amount of stages. I think that's a suitable enough amount of changes for a 2.0.

UltiMario's got it right.

Also, I know that there were significant differences between the various regions, I'm busy the next couple of days but I will be discussing with the 64 scene regarding that.

Also, when it comes to specials, a few things I've been considering:

Falco will lose his laser, keep his Phantasm
Olimar will have his specials switched around, he loses his whistle
Pokemon will be independent, this means removal of Down-B and they keep all their current specials.
Toon Link keeps Arrows, Link keeps the Boomerang
Meta Knight loses Mach Tornado

Bowser is also going to be pretty awesome. I've got a "primitive-ized" moveset I'm working on for him, and I have to say it seems pretty cool to me.

 

[Zef]

Why does he gotta lose his lasers? D:

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Well he could lose phantasm and never come back to the stage ever. Imagine not only trying to come back to the stage without Phantasm, but trying to get back with the really tiny ledge grab-boxes and no auto-snap.

Also, Fox's lasers have to be made to flinch somehow, and then we'd just have two characters with two identical specials.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Why not take away Fox's lasers, and just give him the phantasm. it would be easier since Falco's lasers are already like Fox's in 64.

 

[Zef]

I'm pretty sure some of the floats people have been finding have made it possible to make Fox's lasers flinch, and the recovery thing is true, I suppose.
Is the cooldown going to be reduced on Falco's phantasm? not a lot, just a bit.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm pretty sure some of the floats people have been finding have made it possible to make Fox's lasers flinch, and the recovery thing is true, I suppose.
Is the cooldown going to be reduced on Falco's phantasm? not a lot, just a bit.

I'll probably reduce it by a bit.

Right now, I'm pretty much just waiting on a bunch of codes to be put in place, then I'll test to get the hitstun exactly right by using Fox's Up Smash as the test in both games (It should kill a bit earlier in Brawl 64 though, I always remember the upper blastzones as being absolutely ridiculous in 64. The move also seems the best judge when it comes to moves between the two, it doesn't seem to have all that much difference in KBG vs BKB between the two, and damage is fixed easily enough.).

Then, I'll work on matching the characters who were in 64 to their 64 movesets except, possibly, Luigi. Knockback will be mostly trial and error, I wouldn't even know how to start looking through the 64 ROM for values to do KB on a relative scale. I guess I'm spoiled by being able to poke through individual files with DS and Wii games.

Finally, once the original 12 (or 11) are completed, I'll move on to newer characters.

 

[MonkUnit]

For the pokemon, if you remove the downB transformation by using the independent pokemon code and remove PT himself from the CSS, the pokes won't have a downB. P:M already tried to code a downB for indy pokes iirc. Doesn't seem possible at this time.

 

[Lightosia]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=80947

A good topic about smash 64 DI. A bit old, but it's nice for those that aren't familiar with 64.

I think MK's Drill Rush wouldn't fit well in the Smash 64.


Also, the 64 sounds were the best!

 

[Rikana]

MK's drill rush doesn't make sense in a 64 environment. Just alter his mach tornado. Make it more like Mario's ssb64 downB where its multi hit and you can't make it rise by pressing B and giving it a set duration.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Assuming you are removing side specials, here is what I recommend keeping:
Mario - Fireball
DK - Giant Punch
Link - Boomerang
Samus - Charge Shot
Kirby - Inhale
Pikachu - Thunder Jolt
Captain Falcon - Falcon Punch
Jigglypuff - Pound
Yoshi - Egg Lay
Ness - PK Fire

Givens.

Fox - Blaster (No stun)
Luigi - Green Missile

Smash 64 players will *****. If they'll complain about removing SideBs or automatic Z-cancelling, they will ***** and moan to high heavens about this.

Marth - Dancing Blade
G&W - Judgement
Zelda - Din's Fire
Sheik - Needle Storm
Pit - Palutena's Arrow
Meta Knight - Mach Tornado
Falco - Blaster
Squirtle - Water Gun
Ivysaur - Razor Leaf
Ike - Eruption
Snake - Hand Grenade
Peach - Toad
Ice Climbers - Ice Shot
King Dedede - Waddle Dee Toss
Lucario - Aura Sphere
Sonic - Homing Attack
Bowser - Fire Breath
Toon Link - Arrow
R.O.B. - Robo Beam

Legit.

Diddy Kong - Banana Peel

Which one gets dropped? Banana peel is downB; do you lose the monkey flip or the pistol? I recommend dropping the monkey flip, because it only makes sense as a sideB.

Charizard - Rock Smash

I can't quite place it, but this seems iffy. Dunno what exactly it is...

Ganondorf - Flame Choke

This really does not fit as a neutral special due to its movement qualities. If you keep it, make it like a grab with solid range, not a big sliding move-and make it do very little in the air.

Wolf - Wolf Flash

See Ganon, just that the move doesn't make sense without movement... Seriously, give him the blaster, and make it somewhat worthwhile.

Wario - Wario Bike

Just like the others. From an aesthetic standpoint, it just doesn't make sense.

Olimar - Pikmin Pluck

Ditch the whistle instead.

Lucas - PK Freeze

Aw come on, PK fire is so much better AND more useful. It could fit too.

Also, when it comes to specials, a few things I've been considering:

Falco will lose his laser, keep his Phantasm

Bad move, see above AND below.

Olimar will have his specials switched around, he loses his whistle
Pokemon will be independent, this means removal of Down-B and they keep all their current specials.
Toon Link keeps Arrows, Link keeps the Boomerang

/support

Meta Knight loses Mach Tornado

Two things: ew and no. Drill rush makes no sense as a neutral special. In smash 64, Tornado makes little sense, but at least is not explicitly directed in a certain direction. It's also a better move, and has a better design. I recommend just retooling tornado.

Bowser is also going to be pretty awesome. I've got a "primitive-ized" moveset I'm working on for him, and I have to say it seems pretty cool to me.

Let's hear it.

Well he could lose phantasm and never come back to the stage ever. Imagine not only trying to come back to the stage without Phantasm, but trying to get back with the really tiny ledge grab-boxes and no auto-snap.

Does the move make sense as a normal B attack? How many of those have real movement? I count... uh... one in the whole game (pound). Furthermore, Fox's in 64, get @ me. People don't recover in smash 64. Maybe pikachu does, but that's a rarity. You just don't get hit.

Also, Fox's lasers have to be made to flinch somehow, and then we'd just have two characters with two identical specials.

So what?

MK's drill rush doesn't make sense in a 64 environment. Just alter his mach tornado. Make it more like Mario's ssb64 downB where its multi hit and you can't make it rise by pressing B and giving it a set duration.

THIS.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Why remove side specials at all? I thought that the intent of the project at this point was to improve upon SSB64? Since we have them, what's the point in getting rid of them? They aren't any detriment to gameplay and all it will do is limit move diversity and piss people off. If you are some really weird person who hate side specials, just go play SSB64. I don't see how side specials keep SSB64 gameplay from manifesting.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

See that's what I said, but...