Brawl-: 1.5-1.6 thread archive. 2.0 is stickied

[Wave⁂]

I'm sorry for being"that guy", but is there an estimate for the next release? Or is it just "eventually"?

I think having each hit of Aether heal would be a bit confusing, since you'd have the healing swirls around you the entire time.

Have you guys figured the solution to Bowser?

 

[[TSON]]

I'm sorry for being"that guy", but is there an estimate for the next release? Or is it just "eventually"?

It will forever and always be bland. As we all know, release dates just cause the end product to be rushed.

Have you guys figured the solution to Bowser?

If it was up to me it'd be 'leave him alone and let the metagame evolve'. He's really not that good

We're not sure what to do at this point though lol

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike's changelist states that his Counter has a 1/25 chance of getting a OHKO. My friends and I decided to test this out and it didn't seem to OHKO Meta Knight from center stage (FD, IIRC) at 0%. Is this intentional or was it just not tried out at 0%?

 

[Ulevo]

Fixing two stages so that a character isnt broken makes no sense.

I never implied that we should fix the stages for the sake of a specific character. It would just conveniently work itself out.

Have you guys figured the solution to Bowser?

There is no solution to Bowser because Bowser has no problem. Trust me.

 

[[TSON]]

I never implied that we should fix the stages for the sake of a specific character. It would just conveniently work itself out.

I see what you're trying to do there >_>

 

[Sharky]

bowser isn't even that bad, you just have to cp him with someone like zelda and he can't do anything

 

[Wiscus]

Sorry to be a pain, I was playing around earlier and uh...does Charizard have a sliding down-tilt or something like that?

I'm sorry if someone mentioned it somewhere and I missed it. I swear I did it twice earlier but....... I'm not sure how?

 

[Archadia]

Hello, I installed the Pal version of Brawl-.
It works fine, except two problems I noticed :
_ No sounds. Only a few, like Falco's lasers, and stage music.
_ The last 2 line on the select character screen can't be picked. I mean, I can't put the circle on the image of character. I can't use Captain Falcon, Snake, Jigglypuff...
Hope you'll help me!

PS : You did an awesome job on this !

 

[maathimself]

As a solution to the Bowser complaints, what if you lowered the shield stun on Bowser's moves? Then MK and Lucario at least have shield grabbing to fall back on.

Also, I would love to see Ganon's sword taunt relect projectiles.

 

[Ulevo]

As a solution to the Bowser complaints, what if you lowered the shield stun on Bowser's moves? Then MK and Lucario at least have shield grabbing to fall back on.

Also, I would love to see Ganon's sword taunt relect projectiles.

It's been reinforced several times that shield stun is too much in general. Also, as I'd like to emphasize again, there is no real problem with Bowser.

Bowser forces players to play differently, and outside of conventional methods. Kinda like IC in Brawl. Except Bowser doesn't have a super shield that leads to single grab deaths. And there's not two of him.

 

[Revven]

Sorry to be a pain, I was playing around earlier and uh...does Charizard have a sliding down-tilt or something like that?

I'm sorry if someone mentioned it somewhere and I missed it. I swear I did it twice earlier but....... I'm not sure how?

It's called dash canceling and basically, when you're running, press down and you'll interrupt your dash with a crouch. Then you can either do a Dtilt, Dsmash, or get out of your crouch and do other tilts/smashes. It makes you slide a bit depending on your character's friction in relation to the terrain.

 

[Wiscus]

^ Awesome! I don't know why I simply didn't try dash canceling things earlier. It's so much more useful than in normal brawl, gosh. ;;
Ah it's so funny to do this in brawl.
Thank you!

Now Im going to be playing around with more Melee-ish things.
Ha I wasn't expecting something like this this for Charizard, nice!

 

[[TSON]]

We found the general problem with Wi-Fi. It's solved. However a few characters are causing desynchs due to their specific coding in their pacs, so we need to fix that asap.

 

[Revven]

Ha I wasn't expecting something like this this for Charizard, nice!

It works for everyone fyi.

 

[comboking]

We found the general problem with Wi-Fi. It's solved. However a few characters are causing desynchs due to their specific coding in their pacs, so we need to fix that asap.

When do you think it will be available to the public?

 

[Kirk]

When its good and ready.

 

[comboking]

I would expect nothing less. Thank you Kirk.

 

[forward]

So I had this idea about Brawl-. In original Brawl Metaknight is broken. If Brawl- is trying to be as broken as possible then ever character should be as broken or more broken than metaknight. In Brawl- Metaknight was made even better imo, so I still believe he is the best character. Some characters still need a LOT of buffs to be be able to compete with him, but some others, like Diddy and Falco, were close to him and only need a few buffs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol Metaknight isn't really that much better if at all.

Tornado was BLATANTLY nerfed for starters, and while his D-air may look cool, you have to keep in mind that this is a game where characters have broken mobility and recovery options that are just as good as Metaknight's.

Plus, there's HUGE numbers of timing and hitbox changes. Metaknight doesn't have too many of those, and characters can now viably outrange him.

He's solid enough, but I would easily consider guys like...Luigi, Falcon, Bowser, and Zelda better characters.

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight is actually not fantastic at the moment, and needs to be redone.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So I had this idea about Brawl-. In original Brawl Metaknight is broken. If Brawl- is trying to be as broken as possible then ever character should be as broken or more broken than metaknight. In Brawl- Metaknight was made even better imo, so I still believe he is the best character. Some characters still need a LOT of buffs to be be able to compete with him, but some others, like Diddy and Falco, were close to him and only need a few buffs.

I personally still rate MK in the top 5. He has an absolutely ridiculous grab game, stupid autocombos, and probably the best jab in the game (even the new, nerfed jab being tested in the BR is still probably the best in the game).

lol Metaknight isn't really that much better if at all.

Tornado was BLATANTLY nerfed for starters, and while his D-air may look cool, you have to keep in mind that this is a game where characters have broken mobility and recovery options that are just as good as Metaknight's.

Plus, there's HUGE numbers of timing and hitbox changes. Metaknight doesn't have too many of those, and characters can now viably outrange him.

He's solid enough, but I would easily consider guys like...Luigi, Falcon, Bowser, and Zelda better characters.

Tornado was nerfed?

Comparably, MK is worse. Realistically, he's still incredible.
UpB hits harder and is better at walling out (also safer due to the specialfall changes!)
His gimp game is even better, with spiking tornado (bait your opponents into the end of this one while they recover :3), no specialfall, and more potent dair angle.
Fsmash is faster.
Glide attack hits way harder (and in an angle to allow for follow-ups).
Dtilt is still a frame 3 move. What's changed? It's a frame 3 move which allows for a ****ton of follow-ups. Also, locks shields against walls.
Ftilt? See dtilt.
Jab is incredibly powerful. Seriously. Do not underestimate how good MK's jab is; it's easily one of the best in the game. Also leads into grab or jab.
MK has two throws that kill under 90 on most chars and a great grab game.

MK is easily top 5 material.

EDIT: @Ulevo: GTFO.

 

[Ulevo]

I personally still rate MK in the top 5. He has an absolutely ridiculous grab game, stupid autocombos, and probably the best jab in the game (even the new, nerfed jab being tested in the BR is still probably the best in the game).



Tornado was nerfed?

Comparably, MK is worse. Realistically, he's still incredible.
UpB hits harder and is better at walling out (also safer due to the specialfall changes!)
His gimp game is even better, with spiking tornado (bait your opponents into the end of this one while they recover :3), no specialfall, and more potent dair angle.
Fsmash is faster.
Glide attack hits way harder (and in an angle to allow for follow-ups).
Dtilt is still a frame 3 move. What's changed? It's a frame 3 move which allows for a ****ton of follow-ups. Also, locks shields against walls.
Ftilt? See dtilt.
Jab is incredibly powerful. Seriously. Do not underestimate how good MK's jab is; it's easily one of the best in the game. Also leads into grab or jab.
MK has two throws that kill under 90 on most chars and a great grab game.

MK is easily top 5 material.

EDIT: @Ulevo: GTFO.

Cadet, no offense, but I actually main the character.

And just to kinda recap on what you've mentioned, Jab isn't as amazing as you've made it to claim. It's good at edge guarding specific characters with already bad recoveries. The only use that it has over Dair or a meaty Nair in that regard is that it's player friendly. You just sit there and hold A without actually having to space the Dair properly. Or think. As for being an actual jab, there are much better ones. Meta Knights jab comes out on frame 7, meanwhile we have frame 1 jabs that can't be SDI'd out of, and actually lead to combos, follow ups, kills, positioning, et cetera. Meta Knights jab does none of this. It also leaves him semi committed to the attack.

Dtilt is also not better. First off, I'm not sure what was changed, but I'm going to assume his IASA frames on his Dtilt were nerfed. He can't use the move consecutively as rapidly as he could before. It also doesn't inch him forward, an effect you took out that was already in control of the player anyway. As for the new "pop up" mechanic, Dtilt leads to easier combos, not more useful ones. In vBrawl, Dtilt could lead to a trip, to a grab and throw + pummel damage, then a follow up just by predicting air dodges. While these were not combos in vBrawl, they were consistent enough to use in game play, and with Brawl-'s new mechanics, would have been guaranteed. In Brawl-, Meta Knight gets a Dtilt to aerial, and then it resets the playing field, all providing the opponent actually knows how to DI mind you.

Shuttle Loop, Fsmash, glide attack, and the throws, I agree with.

 

[forward]

Cadet, no offense, but I actually main the character.

And just to kinda recap on what you've mentioned, Jab isn't as amazing as you've made it to claim. It's good at edge guarding specific characters with already bad recoveries. The only use that it has over Dair or a meaty Nair in that regard is that it's player friendly. You just sit there and hold A without actually having to space the Dair properly. Or think. As for being an actual jab, there are much better ones. Meta Knights jab comes out on frame 7, meanwhile we have frame 1 jabs that can't be SDI'd out of, and actually lead to combos, follow ups, kills, positioning, et cetera. Meta Knights jab does none of this. It also leaves him semi committed to the attack.

Dtilt is also not better. First off, I'm not sure what was changed, but I'm going to assume his IASA frames on his Dtilt were nerfed. He can't use the move consecutively as rapidly as he could before. It also doesn't inch him forward, an effect you took out that was already in control of the player anyway. As for the new "pop up" mechanic, Dtilt leads to easier combos, not more useful ones. In vBrawl, Dtilt could lead to a trip, to a grab and throw + pummel damage, then a follow up just by predicting air dodges. While these were not combos in vBrawl, they were consistent enough to use in game play, and with Brawl-'s new mechanics, would have been guaranteed. In Brawl-, Meta Knight gets a Dtilt to aerial, and then it resets the playing field, all providing the opponent actually knows how to DI mind you.

Shuttle Loop, Fsmash, glide attack, and the throws, I agree with.

LOL this is gold. You think jab is good for edge guarding!? Bro, why are you ledge guarding with jab when you have a dair, tornado, and shuttle loop? How can you even ledge guard with jab when jab doesn't reach off of the stage? Yea, I would think jab sucks as well if I used completely wrong.

ROFL what 1 frame jabs have ever existed in smash? Only one frame attack that ever lead to combos and kills was Fox's shine in melee.

The new d tilt is either as good as the old or better. It doesn't have the trip to lead to grabs, but that was never guaranteed in brawl. I prefer the new d tilt which is guaranteed to pop up for a combo. The combo leads to additional damage AND a better position because you can always land on the ground first, thus you are in control of the stage before them.

MK grab game was already hella good Brawl, and the dash dance actually made it better.

IMO his recovery still the best. Some characters have improved recoveries, true, but do you think that adding a hit box to lucario's up b makes it as good as MK's? Do you think adding more range to link's up b makes his recovery as good as MK's? I wouldn't say so. The buffs help the character, but they still aren't up to MK's level. More hit stun helps this game, but I'm not seeing auto combos being pulled off by other characters the way MK does them.

BPC: I imagine that the top 5 characters in brawl are still close to the top 5 characters in brawl-, no? Wario seems worse, but DDD, Falco, Diddy, and Snake all seem to have improved.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Cadet, no offense, but I actually main the character.

So do I.

And just to kinda recap on what you've mentioned, Jab isn't as amazing as you've made it to claim. It's good at edge guarding specific characters with already bad recoveries. The only use that it has over Dair or a meaty Nair in that regard is that it's player friendly. You just sit there and hold A without actually having to space the Dair properly.

You don't have to space it well because it's so **** big. Don't wait for your opponent to just run into it, run up to them and dc jab. It will connect most of the time, and when it doesn't, it beats out sidestep and is safe on shield and roll (in fact, you can usually punish out of roll).

Or think. As for being an actual jab, there are much better ones. Meta Knights jab comes out on frame 7, meanwhile we have frame 1 jabs that can't be SDI'd out of, and actually lead to combos, follow ups, kills, positioning, et cetera. Meta Knights jab does none of this. It also leaves him semi committed to the attack.

This is so wrong it's not even funny. Are your opponents SDI'ing in a certain way to avoid jab->dtilt/ftilt/usmash? The commitment on MK's jab is minimal and the payoff is incredible. Comboing out of it is, again, amazing. And the IASA! OH GOD THE IASA!

Dtilt is also not better. First off, I'm not sure what was changed, but I'm going to assume his IASA frames on his Dtilt were nerfed.

Not aware they were; could be wrong.

[uote] He can't use the move consecutively as rapidly as he could before. It also doesn't inch him forward, an effect you took out that was already in control of the player anyway.[/quote]
Nope... Just outright not true. It DOES put him forwards.

As for the new "pop up" mechanic, Dtilt leads to easier combos, not more useful ones. In vBrawl, Dtilt could lead to a trip, to a grab and throw + pummel damage, then a follow up just by predicting air dodges.

Keyword: could. Not true combos, but rather frame traps. With a 30% chance of success, I might add, and if it failed, you got punished.

While these were not combos in vBrawl, they were consistent enough to use in game play, and with Brawl-'s new mechanics, would have been guaranteed. In Brawl-, Meta Knight gets a Dtilt to aerial, and then it resets the playing field, all providing the opponent actually knows how to DI mind you.

Still better to get Dtilt->fair/uair->upB/tornado than maybe dtilt->grab


@forward: The key here is that other chars got buffed. In vBrawl, Ganon was a non-issue. Here, he's a ****ing monster that will almost always punish one mistake with a very brutal death. While the top tiers improved, most of them did not improve that much (well, MK and Falco did... DDD, Wario, Diddy, and Snake are not anywhere near top tier in Brawl-).

Also, Squirtle and ZSS have frame 1 jabs.

 

[DtJ Composer]

No you don't.


Also everyone always forgets about R.O.B. when they talk about Top 5s.

 

[Ulevo]

LOL this is gold. You think jab is good for edge guarding!? Bro, why are you ledge guarding with jab when you have a dair, tornado, and shuttle loop?

That's basically what I said. I just gave credit where it's due. Please pay attention.

How can you even ledge guard with jab when jab doesn't reach off of the stage? Yea, I would think jab sucks as well if I used completely wrong.

Yes it does reach off the stage. The jab hitbox actually extends below the stage slightly, and will hit characters on the way up, or while clinging.

ROFL what 1 frame jabs have ever existed in smash? Only one frame attack that ever lead to combos and kills was Fox's shine in melee.

Man, Squirtles jab is frame 1. So is ZSS. There are other jabs almost as fast. Lucas is frame 2. Sheik is frame 2. Falco's is frame 2. I'm sure there are many others I can't recall right now. The point I was trying to identify that you seemed to miss was that Meta Knights jab, in comparison to others, is not incredibly fast by any means.

The new d tilt is either as good as the old or better. It doesn't have the trip to lead to grabs, but that was never guaranteed in brawl. I prefer the new d tilt which is guaranteed to pop up for a combo. The combo leads to additional damage AND a better position because you can always land on the ground first, thus you are in control of the stage before them.

And with the Brawl- mechanics, the down tilt would have led to a grab, to forward throw for a pop up (had they not changed it) or down throw for pop up (which is currently how it functions), which equals more damage. The only disadvantage is that the trip isn't guaranteed, but that could be changed.

BPC: I imagine that the top 5 characters in brawl are still close to the top 5 characters in brawl-, no? Wario seems worse, but DDD, Falco, Diddy, and Snake all seem to have improved.

Snake has not improved outside of his new forward smash, up smash and better cypher mobility. The added hit lag to his attacks makes him worse, and was apparently added to Snake with the intention of nerfing him.

 

[Sinz]

Snake has not improved outside of his new forward smash, up smash and better cypher mobility. The added hit lag to his attacks makes him worse, and was apparently added to Snake with the intention of nerfing him.

If they took out the stupid hitlag he would stand a chance but as is he is not worth playing.

 

[forward]

I don't think it is the hit lag that hurts snake, but rather the weakened shield game. How does hit lag make him worse? The only that happens is snake slows down when he lands a hit, how does that make him worse? In free for all or teams? The lower grenade timer is an issue I'm on the fence with as it makes for better projectiles but it weakens his grenade holding game.

BPC: Yes, the top tier got small buffs, but did the lower tier buffs actually get THAT much stronger? MK is a complete packaged character. He can ledge guard, recover and combo. I don't think any buff or combination of buffs to a character has them able to this on the same scale. Ganon was improved but can he really 0-death? Metaknight can 0-death.

I come from the melee world where the top 10 characters can combo to death or into a ledge guard, and so far even in Brawl- MK is the only character I've seen that can still combo to death or into a ledge guard. Ike can cancel his forward b, but did that open 0-death combos for him? Squirtle has a good f smash, but does that enable 0 to death? If not 0 to death then can they at least space well enough to not receive damage or trade hits?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No you don't.


Also everyone always forgets about R.O.B. when they talk about Top 5s.

No, ROB is pretty ****in' pro.

Also, who's this no you don't addressed to?

EDIT: @Forward: Yes, the low tier DID get that much stronger. Look at CF, who, in addition to thriving in an environment with a lot of hitstun, got a buffed knee, improved mobility, better kill moves, and a super awesome combo game. Look at ganon, who really DOES have 0-deaths if you miss one tech or get grabbed once (Dark Shoryuken says hi). Look at Yoshi, who is widely considered the best in the game.

 

[DtJ Composer]

You maining Metaknight.

 

[[TSON]]

i love how people are just now noticing that he doesnt know what hes talking about half of the time

ive been saying mk isnt that good but i got laughed at, wtf

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Seeing that MK is a really solid character is not rocket science...

EDIT: Also, he's one of my mains. Currently, that list has Ganon and MK... ROB is kinda out of the picture.

 

[Kirk]

MK is an offstage monster. Other than that, decent. (b- standards)

Snake, hitlag.

People don't seem to understand how incredibly broken he would be if the additional hitlag was not in place. He could hit shields all day, receiving a frame advantage for doing so. I bet he could ftilt lock people in their shield with the b- shieldstun if he had normal hitlag. I personally did not want a character to be reduced to spamming tilts and nothing else.

The hitlag was decided on to give him something unique to his character, and at the same time make an effort to balance him out as a whole. His projectile/mine/explosive game got an immense buff, as well as his grab and throw game. Perhaps people can learn to play him differently than in regular brawl or brawl+, or perhaps choose to not like him. Either way works.

I'm sure this issue has been beaten to death, but that is this side of the story. I personally feel that he fairs just well against the rest of the cast, matchup dependent of course(as it usually is). I just don't think people should expect a once top tier char to continue to be so in this game. He's different. It's minus.

 

[UTDZac]

You guys are saying that G&W is perfect.

I have one important complaint... why doesn't Judgment kill at 0%

 

[Ulevo]

You guys are saying that G&W is perfect.

I have one important complaint... why doesn't Judgment kill at 0%

Because G&W is perfect!

Obvious post is obvious.

 

[UTDZac]

Judgment kills some characters at 0%... others at 7%... and a few at 12%...

It should kill all at 0% =D

 

[forward]

No, ROB is pretty ****in' pro.

Also, who's this no you don't addressed to?

EDIT: @Forward: Yes, the low tier DID get that much stronger. Look at CF, who, in addition to thriving in an environment with a lot of hitstun, got a buffed knee, improved mobility, better kill moves, and a super awesome combo game. Look at ganon, who really DOES have 0-deaths if you miss one tech or get grabbed once (Dark Shoryuken says hi). Look at Yoshi, who is widely considered the best in the game.

I still think CF is a bad character because he has bad hit boxes. His mobility has improved but it doesn't help him land his attacks because his hit boxes are so small. Bad hit boxes also contribute to combos that don't work. Show me a Falcon combo vid for brawl minus that is half of a melee falcon combo vid and I'll believe that Falcon is good. Good DI + bad hit boxes = no combos. I haven't seen a ganon 0-death. Proof? Vids? As for Yoshi, I can't say whether he is better or not. If his grab release was removed then I would imagine he is worse.

 

[DtJ Composer]

I'm not sure I believe that you've played this game.

 

[forward]

LOL, I'll critique a video and show you all the flaws with Falcon if you want.

 

[stingers]

rob is the best character in the game by far