Bowser's Whirling Fortress boost

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Quick Edit: I have found that it is @ EarthenPillar who introduced this concept to me. I am definitely not the founder of this trick. All the same, we both wanted a video of it in action.

Most of you already know this, but you can get a boost in distance and height with Bowser's UpB by mashing the B button. What only a few of you know is that if you pause for about a half second of its duration and then start mashing, you will get even more out of a boost. I created a custom stage to demonstrate the difference. Check it out.

Some notes:

The first platform is easily cleared with no mashing at all, just standard UpB out of a full hop. The second platform is just barely cleared by mashing B for the entirety of its duration. The third platform is cleared as easily as the first by pausing for a bit, and then mashing B.

I guesstimate that Bowser gets almost double the height from his boost due to the pause. And likely this will improve the distance he can travel with Whirling Fortress as well.

Also:

Here, I found a good stage to practice this tech without making the same custom stage I made. The boxing ring's light fixture at the top of the stage can only be cleared from a full hop with good timing and mashing. Screw up either of these, and you won't make it on top. The hitlag of the fortress striking the fixture will give you more time to mash on each attempt.

Is this the amazing AT we've been waiting for to cure our Bowser woes? No, but it's a nice tip I thought needed to be shared. Try it out for yourself. Maybe we can find out even more about this together!

 

[Karsticles]

Thanks! New to me.

 

[S_B]

Wow, I never knew this...

Need to do some testing of my own. So you start the move, wait a moment, and THEN mash B?

 

[RomanceDawn]

Man this is great! Thanks!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is there a difference if you do a double jump first?

 

[Cassius.]

I think you carry more horizontal momentum if you double jump and then up-B (If you're pressing in a direction as well), but aside from that, I don't think double jumping makes a difference...aside from obviously being able to reach higher than not jumping at all lmao

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is there a difference if you do a double jump first?

To the move itself? No, at least, not logically.

I used the apex of his full hop to accurately demonstrate height. If I instead jumped and hit Up B at the earliest opportunity, I wouldn't go nearly as high, since the upward momentum of a standard jump (or downward momentum of simply falling) normally gets cut off by an up special that gives a character height.

Let's say Bowser's Up special took a while to wind up, say, 12 frames before he actually starts ascending. Then you'd want to double jump before up B so that you can get the most out of double jump's height as your Up B winds up. Thankfully, this is not the case with Bowser, or most of the cast. But that is the case with both of his Custom UpBs. He starts rising almost immediately once you hit the button with standard UpB. I wasn't sure what you were asking here, so I hope you have an answer to your question.

Went ahead and tested a few more things for some quick facts about the boost. For one thing, it's for the aerial version only. Mashing B in any way does not extend the duration, damage, or distance of the grounded version. Also, some of you have used aerial fortress as an attack on an airborne target, or just an opponent who is exposed on a platform. It can clock a good 25 percent damage if you catch them in it perfectly. I have found that the boost appears to extend that damage to around 36%! I tested this on a Bowser, who is heavy and large enough to get hit as many times as possible by this move. And in my tests, pausing before mashing did not reliably have an effect on damage dealt. Both bowsers just ended up a tad higher than when I mashed regularly.

Finally, let's talk about the custom variants of UpB. UpB2, the Flying Fortress, is a low damage variant that sends Bowser much higher at the cost of distance. He also needs a brief moment to wind up the attack. I have not been able to get the boost working with this version of the Fortress. It seems that feature was taken out for only this version of the move.

UpB3, the Sliding Fortress, is also a low damage variant that sends Bowser much further horizontally. The boost works with this one, but proportionally. Since this Fortress is not meant for height, the boost doesn't affect the move as much as it does with standard UpB if you're only measuring height. Pausing before mashing will work as well, but again, the difference made is negligible. The boost will definitely make you travel farther, instead.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ah scratch that about the boost affecting damage, my testing method was off. The boost does not create more damage, it just makes you and the target rise higher as far as I can tell.

I thought I should mention that the footage I recorded was to test out a new capture device for HD consoles. I wouldn't mind making a proper video guide about the Fortress Boost, complete with either text overlay, or even my own commentary. I can also include my findings with custom Fortresses. Would anybody care for that, or is this thread enough?

 

[Cassius.]

This thread is fine, but if you don't mind me asking, what capture device/PC do you have?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This thread is fine, but if you don't mind me asking, what capture device/PC do you have?

I recorded on my windows 8 desktop. The device is El Gato game capture HD. This is not the latest Model, which is HD60. That device is optimal for handling 1080p footage at 60fps on modern consoles. As far as I've read online, my slightly older model is capable of the same feat, but I recorded that footage for the video in 720p/30fps since I just wanted to do a test recording. I chose the HD model because I wanted the compatibility with retro consoles in addition to current ones. That's something that HD60 lacks unless you want to pay for additional components. If you've any more technical questions about it, feel free to message me. This is not my first capture card, you see.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Does this apply to the Flying Fortress custom too?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Does this apply to the Flying Fortress custom too?

Sadly, no. I have not been able to get any boost by mashing B during Flying Fortress. It's a shame since that custom is all about gaining height. It does work with sliding fortress, but to a lesser extent, since that one is all about horizontal direction.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Thanks a ton Zapp! I've been meaning to make a video out of this but haven't the equipment to do so.

Also to add on, I'd like to point out that you can aerial upB and hit B once immediately to limit your ascending height. This is good if you want to only use the first hit of Fortress, which has launching properties. I've found this useful when opponents are at the 100%+ mark and are above me.

Here's what I wrote in the other thread, perhaps it'll help:

Bowser's aerial upB's ascending speed & limit can be managed by your timing on B presses. Don't know if everyone here knows this already. & I know this doesn't solve the topic problem, but it's the way I've been getting around this and I've had no problems playing the off-stage game.

What I had realized some time last year is if you input B just after Fortress begins, it severely limits the amount of height you would be able to reach. Inputing B after this results in Fortress vectoring upwards a bit more.

Contrary, if you had input B just as Fortress is about to hit it's highest ascension, (assuming you had not input B at all before) it makes Fortress go higher than it should, and the ledge grab range on top of that is deceivingly high. Inputing B after this, also results in Fortress vectoring upwards a bit more.

This has allowed for me to pull of things I generally don't see other Bowsers attempting. I've Firebreath-gimped megaman/sonic from using upB and could still get myself back on stage. Because it's Fortress we're talking about here, you do get a hitbox above you as you ascend.

Besides all this, you could always face towards the stage when attempting any sort of off-stage game if you'd wish.

Thanks! New to me.

What I was talking about!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What I was talking about!

Yes, I remember reading your post! I believe I set out almost immediately to record a video of the concept, but came into issues with a piece of software that I didn't resolve until days later when I put up the video. By that time, I forgotten where I read your post and which user you were, so I was at a loss as to who I should credit. Hence why in the OP all I said was "what only some of you know is...". I will edit the OP to include you as the person who brought this tech to my attention.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Why Danke!

This is not my first capture card, you see.

After checking your post I had immediately went and checked out the elgato game capture hd60. I know I'm getting off topic here, but I've considered video game recording since it's become much less of a hassle time-wise. What setup would you recommend for someone who's only recording stuff for the WiiU, 360, PS3? Also what do you use to capture your PC gameplay? May as well ask while I'm at it!

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

There is another trick you can do with Whirling Fortress, though I am not sure if it is known or not.

If you press the B button only a single time after initiating a Whirling Fortress, you actually drop at a lower angle.

This is useful for when you are on the ledge and someone is above you, as you can use this technique to make Whirling Fortress hug the ground after the ledge jump and cover you when you are jumping back on the stage.

Of course, if predicted, it can be punished. But it's a pretty neat trick to use at the right opportunities.


EDIT: Actually, this is far riskier than I thought after retesting due to the endlag Whirling Fortress has upon landing, though you can still regrab the ledge after "dropping" a Whirling Fortress with any subsequent presses of the B button. Not as useful as I thought but you guys can experiment with it if you want to. *shrugs*

It does tear up shields at least.

 

[Corgian]

Yoooosh, this is good to know. This will allow us to fall a little farther, which is great considering how good bowser's off-stage game already is. @ Zapp Branniglenn , can you give an idea of what the timing is? Is it pretty intuitive?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ Zapp Branniglenn , can you give an idea of what the timing is? Is it pretty intuitive?

My best estimate has always been to pause for a half second, and 30 frames seems pretty spot on from the point where you first press up B. After extensive testing with slowed down time in training mode, mashing from the beginning of Fortress simply does not compare to the height you get with the pause. Think of the boost as a set amount of height over a set time period. If you initiate the boost too early in Bowser's Fortress, you cut off the height he gains naturally from the move. However, if you're too late, the move ends before the boost's duration has fully elapsed. I wish I could provide frame data for this sweetspot of when to start mashing, but I cannot. I can tell you that the game seems pretty lenient about your timing.

I hope this makes sense, because we initially thought this change to Fortress in Smash 4 was designed to be identical to Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario Cyclone, where the height earned is based entirely on how many button presses you can get. With Fortress, I can confirm that mashing faster has an impact, but only as much as the timing aspect. Both of these factor in to the total height earned.

If you're wondering how many times you must press B to gain optimal height, don't worry, it's not as many as the ridiculous 14 presses per second you needed with Melee Luigi Cyclone. My guesstimate is six presses for the maximum height. As long as you're making an honest effort to mash, you should be able to easily make this number without putting a strain on your thumb. I noticed three or four was when Bowser stopped clearing the top platform consistently. And we already know that pressing B just once without a pause during Fortress will actually have Bowser losing height compared to not boosting at all.

Here, I found a good stage to practice this tech without making the same custom stage I made. The boxing ring's light fixture at the top of the stage can only be cleared from a full hop with good timing and mashing. Screw up either of these, and you won't make it on top. The hitlag of the fortress striking the fixture will give you more time to mash on each attempt.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Something I need to emphasize that I did not before. Learning BOTH executions, the limitation and extension of ascension of aerial Fortress is important, for a number of reasons:

Extended Height:
- Allows Bowser to reach further depths below the stage to edgeguard, which then, Firebreath, Fair, Bair and Footstool become good options vs low recovery. Remember that aerial Fortress itself is a hurtbox, that also reflects physical project on the way up, as this covers options made by specific characters against Bowser.
- Allows Bowser to recover lower if edgeguarded from above, even when facing away from the stage***

Limited Height:
- Because Bowser can grab ledges above him, Bowser is able to halt the ascension of Fortress below ledgeguarding Dtilts & Dsmashes, such as LilMac's, Link's, Ganon; and STILL grab onto the ledge.
- Allows Bowser to use the 1st hit of Aerial Fortress for it's knockback properties otherwise slugged by the other hits.
- Because Aerial Fortress does significant damage, grants Bowser another attack while he is hanging from the ledge. The delay on landing is absent if Bowser catches the ledge again. This is a viable option against characters who lack meteor capabilities in such scenarios.

Mixture of Both:
- Because you can choose when to boost Fortress and by how much, you can also procrastinate falling. This is useful especially against characters such as Villager who could otherwise deny Fortress used as low stage recovery.
Interestingly enough, This was also viable last patch because of Fortress boosting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=ZeGKhFgCTrw&app=desktop
^Credits to jinchuuriki88

 

[Corgian]

Something I need to emphasize that I did not before. Learning BOTH executions, the limitation and extension of ascension of aerial Fortress is important, for a number of reasons:
Mixture of Both:
- Because you can choose when to boost Fortress and by how much, you can also procrastinate falling. This is useful especially against characters such as Villager who could otherwise deny Fortress used as low stage recovery.
Interestingly enough, This was also viable last patch because of Fortress boosting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=ZeGKhFgCTrw&app=desktop
^Credits to jinchuuriki88

While it was viable last patch, it no longer exists sadly.

 

[Corgian]

Okay, I labbed it for about 10 minutes, and had it consistent after about 5 lol. The timing is very intuitive. Not that precise at all.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Hehe, all part of the [bait gimp -> ledge trump -> gimp game].

 

[Dark Phazon]

Wow...what..? So it doesnt work no more? Was it patched?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Wow...what..? So it doesnt work no more? Was it patched?

Not at all. The boost works precisely the same now as it did before. It was one of the first things I checked on on the day that patch 1.06 dropped. I figured that enough people would have their attention on Bowser's Side B instead.

I don't think they would ever remove or nerf the whirling fortress boost, but I feel like it may get streamlined a bit in a future patch or even the next game. Mashing after a pause during a move rather than mashing in general during a move sounds more arbitrary than intuitive.