Social Bowser's Castle

[Jerodak]

putting up and putting down shield takes 18 frames. It was 14 in Brawl, but they increased the amount you are locked into shield by four - 11+7 to shield drop. There's only a few characters where running shield is faster than their skid stop. Off the top of my head, DK, Samus, and Luigi. But the benefit of having a shield up for 11 of those frames makes it a decent approach option for a variety of situatuions, usually with the intent of shield grabbing after breaking their zone.

...why'd they stiff me with Leonardo? All of the Dawn Brigade is crap, and they give me the one that's bow-locked?

Because It looks the most like your original avatar. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[GerudoKong]

When I try to think back of playing before the upthrow, I find it weird that I was actually getting decent results. Now that uthrow is our biggest source of damage, I can't even remember how I would build up enough damage for a kill before. I guess Dthrow wasn't too bad as it does 12 or 13, and I relied on spaced ftilts more, but it just seems strange to look back before upthrow was a thing.

 

[ZIO]

Utilt seems like a underrated option for bowser. Hitbox is perhaps the biggest out of any utilt in the game so it's a great anti-air that is safer than Usmash. 9 damage isn't a whole lot but it helps more than I previously thought.

It's probably not practical, but I have this habit of using utilt when my opponent is found behind me out of reflex due to my doing that with Marth in Melee. Marth's utilt sends an opponent straight up with I liked. Though, it's a bad habit that I seems to never been able to kick. I mean I was edge guarding with it in Melee that's how hung up I was on it.

So anyway, I do it from time to time with Bowser and I like how it kind of bring the opponent just above me and in position for a few more. It's quite unexpected for them so it benefits you for them to be momentarily confused.

With that said, I don't recommend it. Use is sparingly. Like, Bowser Bomb after being sent into the air sparingly.

 

[CreamyFatone]

If someone is doing full jumps in front of me in neutral, and I think Fortress is either anticipated or not good in the matchup, I'll sometimes do turnaround utilt, trying to hit them with the back end so I'll have more frames to work with on hit or miss.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I went to a tournament New Zealand 2 weeks ago

and I'm glad they "nerfed" uthrow: https://www.twitch.tv/standingfierce2/v/56713592?t=1h

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

KuroganeHammer Sweet use of USmash as a DTilt fake out at the ledge against RosaLuma.

 

[Dre89]

Is there a guide somewhere on his grab meta. Had a quick skim but I couldn't see anything.

I've mained DK for months then I randomly decide to play Bowser and started two stocking people I was losing to as DK. I don't even know how to do his throw combos lol.

This character is so braindead, I love it lol.

 

[S_B]

Is there a guide somewhere on his grab meta. Had a quick skim but I couldn't see anything.

I've mained DK for months then I randomly decide to play Bowser and started two stocking people I was losing to as DK. I don't even know how to do his throw combos lol.

This character is so braindead, I love it lol.

So did you not get all of the Bowser trolling out of your system in the CCI thread or what?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is there a guide somewhere on his grab meta. Had a quick skim but I couldn't see anything.

I've mained DK for months then I randomly decide to play Bowser and started two stocking people I was losing to as DK. I don't even know how to do his throw combos lol.

This character is so braindead, I love it lol.

For grabs at 0% Utilt or Usmash as a mixup. Some floaties will be too high to Utilt, so move straight ahead to Nair. Nair is the go to for damage, but turnaround Bair sets up for edgeguards, Usmash is guaranteed against fast fallers(Sheik,Fox, DK,etc) around 20-40, and at the ledge you can Dair meteor. In addition, around 40 is the point they begin entering tumble, and that let's you pop them just above a Battlefield platform to force a tech. Whether they tech roll or fail to tech, Bowser can cover the entire platform with massive hitboxes like a shorthop Bair. Finally, this is a chart for Uair ranges, and a second tab for the Usmash ranges, all training mode numbers.

Glad you're enjoying Bowser's grab game. Just don't play for too long or you might find there to be an actual character here.

 

[Dre89]

For grabs at 0% Utilt or Usmash as a mixup. Some floaties will be too high to Utilt, so move straight ahead to Nair. Nair is the go to for damage, but turnaround Bair sets up for edgeguards, Usmash is guaranteed against fast fallers(Sheik,Fox, DK,etc) around 20-40, and at the ledge you can Dair meteor. In addition, around 40 is the point they begin entering tumble, and that let's you pop them just above a Battlefield platform to force a tech. Whether they tech roll or fail to tech, Bowser can cover the entire platform with massive hitboxes like a shorthop Bair. Finally, this is a chart for Uair ranges, and a second tab for the Usmash ranges, all training mode numbers.

Glad you're enjoying Bowser's grab game. Just don't play for too long or you might find there to be an actual character here.

Thanks for the tips. I basically walk around spacing with jab then burst with dash attack or dash/pivot grab. Obviously I have to mix my movement up with stuff like dashes and empty hops and use other stacks every now and then.

I think I just find him less work because he's more direct and has high reward. He has really good forward burst options so his movement and mix ups don't have to be as complex as other characters.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thanks for the tips. I basically walk around spacing with jab then burst with dash attack or dash/pivot grab. Obviously I have to mix my movement up with stuff like dashes and empty hops and use other stacks every now and then.

I think I just find him less work because he's more direct and has high reward. He has really good forward burst options so his movement and mix ups don't have to be as complex as other characters.

I agree with your assessment. I find Bowser to be easy to understand and play but not so much easy to play in a competitive setting. And I definitely would not phrase this distinction by calling Bowser "braindead". I'm sure you can agree that was a bit rude. If you're still playing Bowser, then there's more tips to be shared. Though many are buried, you'll find great threads for jab, covering ledge options with fortress, and what you need to know before you ever attempt Bowsercide.

For one thing, empty hops are not something we typically do. There's an anti-jump stigma among Bowser mains, and for good reason. Jumping is too much of a commitment in the neutral. Being able to shorthop autocancel Fair and Bair feels good, but it doesn't reach far enough to warrant the commitment to use them. An 8 frame jumpsquat and frame 11 Fair is notably slower than our basic tilts, and just as much endlag as you wait for Bowser to land and incur 6 frames autocancel lag. We do have two great tricks from shorthop though and if you can't wrap your head around Bowser's ground-focused game plan, these are some good tricks to compensate for the average player's Sheik-itis. First are the SHADC specials. Short hop, buffer an air dodge during jumpsquat, then buffer a special before landing. Bowser incurs 0 frames of landing lag as he winds up the special move of your choosing. Combine this with a speedy Fortress, a 24% damage Bowser Bomb, or frame 8 command grab, and it's a potent way of approaching through your opponent's attacks or projectiles and punishing them. The other sort of cool thing we can do is just short hop Side B. This move has a higher 17 frame startup in the air, but it autocancels on landing. Great for snatching people up in their shields because any normal character should only have attacks when airborne, not grabs. Bowser's air Side B takes advantage of this mental stigma as the opponent reflexively puts up shield as we approach from the air. And because you've got no landing lag, the option also beats any of their dodges to boot. Side B's lagless nature also makes it so we don't ever have to tech the ground. If you've ever heard of A-landing, then you know why that's a big deal.

 

[Dre89]

I agree with your assessment. I find Bowser to be easy to understand and play but not so much easy to play in a competitive setting. And I definitely would not phrase this distinction by calling Bowser "braindead". I'm sure you can agree that was a bit rude. If you're still playing Bowser, then there's more tips to be shared. Though many are buried, you'll find great threads for jab, covering ledge options with fortress, and what you need to know before you ever attempt Bowsercide.

For one thing, empty hops are not something we typically do. There's an anti-jump stigma among Bowser mains, and for good reason. Jumping is too much of a commitment in the neutral. Being able to shorthop autocancel Fair and Bair feels good, but it doesn't reach far enough to warrant the commitment to use them. An 8 frame jumpsquat and frame 11 Fair is notably slower than our basic tilts, and just as much endlag as you wait for Bowser to land and incur 6 frames autocancel lag. We do have two great tricks from shorthop though and if you can't wrap your head around Bowser's ground-focused game plan, these are some good tricks to compensate for the average player's Sheik-itis. First are the SHADC specials. Short hop, buffer an air dodge during jumpsquat, then buffer a special before landing. Bowser incurs 0 frames of landing lag as he winds up the special move of your choosing. Combine this with a speedy Fortress, a 24% damage Bowser Bomb, or frame 8 command grab, and it's a potent way of approaching through your opponent's attacks or projectiles and punishing them. The other sort of cool thing we can do is just short hop Side B. This move has a higher 17 frame startup in the air, but it autocancels on landing. Great for snatching people up in their shields because any normal character should only have attacks when airborne, not grabs. Bowser's air Side B takes advantage of this mental stigma as the opponent reflexively puts up shield as we approach from the air. And because you've got no landing lag, the option also beats any of their dodges to boot. Side B's lagless nature also makes it so we don't ever have to tech the ground. If you've ever heard of A-landing, then you know why that's a big deal.

Thanks, that SHAD stuff is really interesting. I don't jump much, it's mainly stuff like empty hop fast fall into dash/pivot grab. I also randomly SH bair but I think that's just a carry-over habbit from playing DK lol.

I like DK more as a character but I just feel like Bowser is simpler to play and is better in every single regard except off-stage.

 

[GerudoKong]

I agree with your assessment. I find Bowser to be easy to understand and play but not so much easy to play in a competitive setting. And I definitely would not phrase this distinction by calling Bowser "braindead". I'm sure you can agree that was a bit rude. If you're still playing Bowser, then there's more tips to be shared. Though many are buried, you'll find great threads for jab, covering ledge options with fortress, and what you need to know before you ever attempt Bowsercide.

For one thing, empty hops are not something we typically do. There's an anti-jump stigma among Bowser mains, and for good reason. Jumping is too much of a commitment in the neutral. Being able to shorthop autocancel Fair and Bair feels good, but it doesn't reach far enough to warrant the commitment to use them. An 8 frame jumpsquat and frame 11 Fair is notably slower than our basic tilts, and just as much endlag as you wait for Bowser to land and incur 6 frames autocancel lag. We do have two great tricks from shorthop though and if you can't wrap your head around Bowser's ground-focused game plan, these are some good tricks to compensate for the average player's Sheik-itis. First are the SHADC specials. Short hop, buffer an air dodge during jumpsquat, then buffer a special before landing. Bowser incurs 0 frames of landing lag as he winds up the special move of your choosing. Combine this with a speedy Fortress, a 24% damage Bowser Bomb, or frame 8 command grab, and it's a potent way of approaching through your opponent's attacks or projectiles and punishing them. The other sort of cool thing we can do is just short hop Side B. This move has a higher 17 frame startup in the air, but it autocancels on landing. Great for snatching people up in their shields because any normal character should only have attacks when airborne, not grabs. Bowser's air Side B takes advantage of this mental stigma as the opponent reflexively puts up shield as we approach from the air. And because you've got no landing lag, the option also beats any of their dodges to boot. Side B's lagless nature also makes it so we don't ever have to tech the ground. If you've ever heard of A-landing, then you know why that's a big deal.

I disagree with not using empty hops. Yes our shorthop aerial game is pretty bad, but I find empty hops useful for mind gaming the opponent into landing myself an easier dash grab.
Could you explain what you mean by " Side B's lagless nature also makes it so we don't ever have to tech the ground"? Even though I've played Bowser for a long time, I don't quite understand how this would work. Could you explain in a situation such as getting launched by Fox's Dair and then using SideB to tech to avoid an Usmash? Would one just input sideB while in hitstun to tech?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Nah, if you're launched by Fox's DAir, you'll be hit by USmash before you can hit the ground. RIP

But say you get hit by a move at mid percent that puts you into tumble, like Greninja's FAir. You can Side B before hitting the ground to land standing. That's basically it.


EDIT: Also DKWill showed me how wrong that line of thinking is. We're not better than DK. DK has so many great options in neutral, including nasty air to ground strings and traps with grounded specials. On top of that, once Bowser's knocked out of neutral, DK has the air speed and the frame data to challenge air space while avoiding our call-outs. DK is so much better at trapping opponents that are sent air-borne that dismissing it would be silly. There is nothing remotely inferior about DK.

 

[GerudoKong]

Nah, if you're launched by Fox's DAir, you'll be hit by USmash before you can hit the ground. RIP

But say you get hit by a move at mid percent that puts you into tumble, like Greninja's FAir. You can Side B before hitting the ground to land standing. That's basically it.


EDIT: Also DKWill showed me how wrong that line of thinking is. We're not better than DK. DK has so many great options in neutral, including nasty air to ground strings and traps with grounded specials. On top of that, once Bowser's knocked out of neutral, DK has the air speed and the frame data to challenge air space while avoiding our call-outs. DK is so much better at trapping opponents that are sent air-borne that dismissing it would be silly. There is nothing remotely inferior about DK.

Oh if that's how it works, it doesn't seem too useful.
Yeah DK is pretty well known for being the best heavy, other than Falcon I guess. But I wouldn't say our matchup against him is that bad. Pivot grab reaches him from really far away because of his large hurtboxes, and we can survive his best kill move (Bair) for a really long time as long as it doesn't hit us while offstage. He takes all the hits from NAir about everytime, which is good for racking damage. We can shield grab his Bair which is something a good number of characters can't do without perfect shielding because of our grab range.
As far as comparing Bowser to DK, I would say we have a better punish game and more kill power than him, as well as a better kill confirm(Dk's Uthrow Uair doesn't work at %'s as high as ours) As somebody who played DK before Bowser, I will tell you he struggles really hard against Pikachu and Kirby because of how short they are, they can't be hit by Bair effectively which ruins his neutral. Bowser has better matchups against those two than DK. And if you personally played DKWill, I would tell you that DK just seems that amazing because well you played the best DK in the world.
Edit: I also should mention that because of his size, he is extremely vulnerable to being grabbed by Aerial Klaw(both when he's on the ground and in the air)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Honestly, they're very similar characters with a swap of minor weaknesses. Amazing grab game, jab, limb intangibility. It's hard to say who's really better or who even wins the MU. I can vouch for so much more of Bowser's strong points because of experience, but there's a reason why the case for DK so often begins and ends at Bair. It's a good move.

 

[Dre89]

Nah, if you're launched by Fox's DAir, you'll be hit by USmash before you can hit the ground. RIP

But say you get hit by a move at mid percent that puts you into tumble, like Greninja's FAir. You can Side B before hitting the ground to land standing. That's basically it.


EDIT: Also DKWill showed me how wrong that line of thinking is. We're not better than DK. DK has so many great options in neutral, including nasty air to ground strings and traps with grounded specials. On top of that, once Bowser's knocked out of neutral, DK has the air speed and the frame data to challenge air space while avoiding our call-outs. DK is so much better at trapping opponents that are sent air-borne that dismissing it would be silly. There is nothing remotely inferior about DK.

DK's neutral just seems better because it's more complex. But in reality he has to use more mix ups to do the same things Bowser does with less options.

Bowser's jab spacing basically does what DK's jab/dtilt spacing does. Their pivot grabs are pretty similar. However the biggest difference is that DK doesn't have a good dashgrab, so he doesn't have that dash attack/grab 50/50 that Bowser has. Those two options basically cover everything between them if timed correctly, so you don't need to do much else.

That's why DK needs to rely on bair and movement mix ups more. If he had Bowser's dashgrab he wouldn't have to do that, his neutral would become as basic as Bowser's.

DK looks more impressive because he's more mobile and uses more options in neutral, but at the end of the day both of their strengths lie in their grabs and Bowser is a lot better at getting grabs due to his dashgrab.

His disadvantage is also worse than Bowser's, except for off-stage. If you just get in front of him or underneath him when he's in disadvantage on-stage he has zero viable options except try to trick you with momentum mix ups and make you whiff your punish. Bowser's isn't great either but at least he has semi-fast options and an aerial grab. DK also has the worst ledge game in the cast. His hurtbox extends over the ledge and all of options are sluggish and super punishable.

DK's main thing over Bowser is that he's much better off-stage. So that could possibly make him better in some MUs if that's a really important aspect of the MU.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

KuroganeHammer Sweet use of USmash as a DTilt fake out at the ledge against RosaLuma.

>:D

KO'd at like 60% MMMMMMMMMMM delicious

Everyone be like YOOOO DID HE JUST WALK UP SLOWLY AND USMASH??

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Anyone tried Jab 1 into FSmash? Shielding opponents will get their shield broke if you perform it twice, and unwary opponents will get killed if space right because his limbs are intengible.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Jab 1 to Fsmash is restricted for men of faith.

 

[GerudoKong]

I prefer jab1 to Bowser Bomb, but I suppose a mixup like that would really keep your opponent on their toes even if they shield it, and condition them to shield after your jab1 next time allowing for a dash grab.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Its very hard to do though even if spaced right. If the opponent is spamming A he should jab you during the animation of Fsmash and knock you outo f it. F... I wish that move had SA. But yeah its inferior to the other ways to followup Jab 1 for sure. But its a medium risk high reward mixup.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Side Smash is honestly something I wish I could do more, for obvious reasons - landing a clean one is so satsifying I can't help myself from getting a huge grin and pop-off in my seat a little. But, I am trying to make my reads more like actual reads and less like high-risk gambles on a huge hit.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Anyone ever found themelves clang with the opponent with fortress and suddenly perform SIdeB and grab them? Its always funny to me, because I Have the tendency to mash B even for grounded Fortress, wich is why in those clash situations I usually side B them.

 

[GerudoKong]

Anyone ever found themelves clang with the opponent with fortress and suddenly perform SIdeB and grab them? Its always funny to me, because I Have the tendency to mash B even for grounded Fortress, wich is why in those clash situations I usually side B them.

Actually now that you mention it, I may have done that a few times...

I think going for an offstage airdodge read Fair is pretty underrated. Bowser is floaty, so he's good at this even if his vertical recovery isn't the greatest. I'm finding it to be an effective option, and you can go surprisingly deep and still make it back as long as you mash properly

 

[Greward]

Anyone ever found themelves clang with the opponent with fortress and suddenly perform SIdeB and grab them? Its always funny to me, because I Have the tendency to mash B even for grounded Fortress, wich is why in those clash situations I usually side B them.

I do this all the time and even fish for it intentionally lol
Like when there's a banana to clank with or something like that.

 

[TurboLink]

I went to a tournament New Zealand 2 weeks ago

and I'm glad they "nerfed" uthrow: https://www.twitch.tv/standingfierce2/v/56713592?t=1h

That is dead. What did it show?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That is dead. What did it show?

Me killing some sap at 63% off a grab with uthrow uair on battlefield.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Me killing some sap at 63% off a grab with uthrow uair on battlefield.

Battlefield platforms are a gift from Smash-based God

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Battlefield platforms are a gift from Smash-based God

It was on the ground LOL

 

[BarSoapSoup]

It was on the ground LOL

._______. wat

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

="BarSoapSoup, post: 21092319, member: 340366"]._______. wat

Rage. I don't remember what % he was at, but rage was at max if not close. It's even more impressive considering the stage was Battlefield.

Being the heaviest character in the game really lets you take advantage of this mechanic.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

It seems crazy, though. Not that I'm complaining, but I didn't even know rage let us kill that early.

 

[GerudoKong]

Rage BowserBomb is even more ridiculous

 

[GerudoKong]

Have we always been able to be double Uaired by fox or was that the recent weight increase?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Have we always been able to be double Uaired by fox or was that the recent weight increase?

It could be possible that the weight increase birthed that but Bowser is so big I'd be more surprised if Fox hasn't always been able to do that.

 

[ZIO]

So, I was playing last night against a guy named SIMBA and he was playing all the characters and I was getting my ass handed to me. I noticed a few things. He seemed to have more control of his character in the air. Is that character dependent? It's hard to explain, I guess. One thing I DID notice was that he's obviously put alot of practice into the game. More than me. He was moving faster and knew how to follow up everything.

It was actually kind of annoying. I suppose I enjoyed it in some way as I was learning, but unless I'm willing to devote alot of time to improve and maybe even change the character I choose to play, then playing online is not going to be alot of fun very soon.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Lag might be a factor - online IS online after all.

Some characters are definitely better off in the air over Bowser - better airspeed, longer active frames in their moves (Villager being a prime example - pretty sure airdodging most of his aerials is impossible for us), less endlag on said aerials.

Without video evidence we obviously can't tell how adept he was in the air, but I would presume the reason it troubles you is because Koo-Pah was not as inefficient? It's not like you're just throwing out F-Airs and N-Airs. It's just a timing thing which lag can really screw with.

 

[ZIO]

I suppose I'll save some games and upload them for you all to see, soon, then. Obviously I won't be able to play that guy again, but maybe it'll help see in what direction I need to focus on.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Come to think of it, I have my own replays to upload, as well. One in particular I think J Jerodak might find interesting, although I'll upload the other two for critical review.