Canada Falllout
Smash Rookie
I mean the Bowser on this game is... way faster the before his attacks much more easy to use and i pretty much love him more on this games what do you guys think?
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Bowser is now competitive material?
- Thread starter Canada Falllout
- Start date
MarthFanatique
Smash Journeyman
Yes, from what others are saying (I'm personally holding out for the Wii U version next week) Bowser has a lot more options and faster. He'll probably end up falling somewhere in the top half of the tier list.
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Canada Falllout
Smash Rookie
I agree 
but he still has weaknesses other than that he's better than ever.
but he still has weaknesses other than that he's better than ever.
Volimutt
Smash Cadet
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He's always been competitive material to me. Just more challenging to contest others than usual. But Smash 4 Bowser totally *****.
B!squick
Smash Master
Nope. Bowser is Ganon tier this time around.
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
Not always...T.T But Smash 4 and P:M 3.5 are really good.
I don't think he's going to fall that low.
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Warlock*G
Banned via Warnings
I don't know... The biggest problem I'm having with Bowser, in any one-on-one match, is to safely land after having been launched/juggled. Being a big, (relatively) slow target doesn't exactly facilitate retaking control of the fight.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I think using klaw as you land every time is actually the best way to go here. It cancels your landing lag if you do.
But yeah, it can be hard to get back to the stage if your opponent knows how long it takes for Bowser to land.
Burruni
Smash Hero
VGBootCamp just posted up their first 3DS tourney. There was a Bowser player who made it to Finals with a 30 minute Grand Final session. I feel like it would be good to see for someone's approach to the character at that level of play.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Bowser is probably mid tier at best. Key word being probably.
I say this because while I imagine Bowser play has significant room for improvement, other characters have even MORE room for improvement.
I say this because while I imagine Bowser play has significant room for improvement, other characters have even MORE room for improvement.
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B!squick
Smash Master
I saw those Grand Finals. He kept using Fire Breath to cover his landings when he wasn't air dodging into grabs and other things. The rest of time he was Klawing like he was playing Brawl and whiffing at least half of them.
But he also made it Grand Finals and he was up against a SCARY good DHD player, so..... :S
Like Sheik. Is there even a ceiling to Sheik? I dunno at this point.
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The_Woebegone_Jackal
Smash Journeyman
Bowser bomb to ledge is near uncontestable by most of the cast, sans the few with windboxes (curse you Greninja and Mario!). Fire breath right before landing is good as well, so long as you don't telegraph it every time (its also a great approach tool), it catches rolls into you while stopping dashes and some projectiles. As mentioned Koopa Klaw works as well. With these tools its easy to condition an opponent to wait out your landing before going in, leaving you a chance to simply fast fall to the ground. He definitely has an easier time getting down than most players are giving him credit for.
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S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Yeah, "pillar of flame" is the way to go here (aka pointing Bowser's fire straight down while in the air.
And for the record, most opponents (even the good ones) tend to fall for PoF on the edge of the stage when they respawn and have those precious few seconds of invincibility. Just run to the edge of the stage, face the middle, take a few steps in since FB pushes Bowser back now for some dumb reason, and then jump and aim your fire down when they come at you after respawning.
It's like their brains can't unwire from the urge to use that invuln while they have it (this worked in Brawl as well)...
It's not a dumb reason. The reason is to auto-space. When ZeRo was testing the Japanese version on stream, he (and his partner in crime, M2K) commented on how powerful this auto-spacing effect is because it effectively helps you avoid horrendous punishment for using a move that was, in Brawl, extremely unsafe, especially at point blank range since an opponent could attempt to DI past Bowser. I've been able to exploit this in my matches and I greatly appreciate this flame breath mechanic being in the game.
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S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Ah, I see.
Not a fan of it pushing you off the ledge, however...
Also, something we should all probably get good at is regularly flame-reversing while jumping. Keep your opponent guessing as to which direction you'll be using the FB...
B!squick
Smash Master
Is Fire Breath while landing really a thing? Because to me it sounds like a horrendous idea.
It's okay. It beats an opponent trying to stay underneath us with a spot dodge, shield grab, and (on hard read) roll while granting us a reset. Our only other options against those are aerial klaw (which can be ballsy, but the auto-cancel will help if you miss),
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MrEh
Smash Hero
Fire Breath while landing is legit as long as your opponent is more then 10 feet away from you. lol
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
The other thing to mention here is that other characters have more options that allow them to better adapt to the situation (and their opponent).
For example, you can play DHD aggressively, or you can hide in the corner and set up your projectile fortress, or you can switch between the two playstyles at any time to keep your opponent guessing.
It's perfectly legit if you can punish their aggression with it, or reverse it.
In both cases, you have to be reading them correctly, though.
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TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Well there is now. Bouncing Fish's kill power has been nerfed quite a bit bit lmfao. Won't make the matchup magically good or anything but I'm positive this is good for Bowser :3Like Sheik. Is there even a ceiling to Sheik? I dunno at this point.
Sheik never relied on Bouncing Fish for punishment or kills. A single throw will pretty much destroy us. Bouncing Fish will also still kill you if she nails you off-stage since the blast-zone is still so close, so its edgeguard potential is unchanged.
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S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Can you link to this? I can't find the videos for it anywhere...
EDIT: Never mind, found em...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am9oX4hDLlM&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw
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S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Also, according to this, Bowser WON...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgA6xWbMusM&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw&index=74
Tell that to Rend, who used it numerous times while landing right on top of an opponent and won the tournament.
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Burruni
Smash Hero
Well I didn't want to SPOIL the final match!Also, according to this, Bowser WON...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgA6xWbMusM&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw&index=74
Tell that to Rend, who used it numerous times while landing right on top of an opponent and won the tournament.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Well, it works against certain characters that have projectiles with linear trajectory and/or decent end lag. For instance, you can short hop frontal check a ZSS over her laser now with firebreath since they increased the end lag on her blaster.Also, according to this, Bowser WON...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgA6xWbMusM&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw&index=74
Tell that to Rend, who used it numerous times while landing right on top of an opponent and won the tournament.
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B!squick
Smash Master
If Duck didn't SD, he probably would have won. Rend's off stage game was superb even if his decision to cover his landings with Fire Breath is a little suspect. I'm not even sure what he could have done instead, to be honest. That stupid can is such a good frame trap.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
And if Rend hadn't bombed/Daired to the stage a number of times right before getting KOed, the match wouldn't have been as close as it was.
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MrEh
Smash Hero
And I've beaten the best players in my region with grab release Fsmashes. That doesn't mean that Grab Release Fsmash is good.Tell that to Rend, who used it numerous times while landing right on top of an opponent and won the tournament.
Using bad things in situations where you know that they'll work doesn't make them any less bad.
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Grab release dtilt, on the other hand, is pretty interesting. The window for the opponent punishing you isn't too large for the payoff you get. Most attacks that travel as far with as much priority take longer to come out than Bowser's dtilt.
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S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Except that F-smash out of grab release is 100% avoidable whereas flame breath while landing isn't as certain, especially if you read it correctly.
I'd be more convinced of it being as bad as you say if Rend was being punished for using it and yet he very rarely was. As it stands, he was typically able to rack up a lot of damage with it because he had good reads.
It was his Dairs, Bairs on stage and bombs that were getting him KOed...
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Hahaha I don't know about that. Every time I attempt it (and I do not attempt it against characters I know I can't get away with doing it to) it's more like a spray and pray feeling. MrEh isn't wrong that our options to land against an opponent are generally bad, which is why you don't typically jump towards someone as an approach. Even short hopped FAir is best while retreating, though the rewards for approaching with it successfully are amazing. DHD very well could have just pushed away and started counter-attacking as soon as he was within the wind box, but I suspect the player couldn't figure it out in time. If DHD had done that, the stage control that Bowser had gained from using firebreath could have been undone.
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Raiden mk-II
Smash Journeyman
I also use Fire Breath to cover my landings. I know that it does not work every time, but it does deter some opponents.
Another use for Fire Breath I've started utilizing is to deter edge guarding. When I get knocked offstage and notice my opponents trying to edge guard, I use Fire Breath off stage. My opponents either get fried or they back away, allowing me to use Bowser's improved recovery to get back on stage. Something as simple as Fire Breath can be such an excellent spacing and tech tool. It's really Bowser's only real non-melee option.
Another use for Fire Breath I've started utilizing is to deter edge guarding. When I get knocked offstage and notice my opponents trying to edge guard, I use Fire Breath off stage. My opponents either get fried or they back away, allowing me to use Bowser's improved recovery to get back on stage. Something as simple as Fire Breath can be such an excellent spacing and tech tool. It's really Bowser's only real non-melee option.
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S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
True, but you could say the same about all of Bowser's moves, really.
All I know for certain is that Rend didn't once die to using FB that I saw, but he died a number of times from missing with Bair, Dair and bomb.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I use Fire to cover my landings. But only at a distance where your opponent can just run up and Usmash you. That's insanely close to be.
Born in 1839...
Smash Apprentice
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I think Bowser would fall in the middle somewhere.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Yeah, and Rend was pretty good about the spacing.
It helps if you're low enough to the ground when you start using it that your opponent can't make it under the FB in time so they either need to stay back completely or wind up getting caught in it.
Though, Rend did use it a few times up close as a surprise and it worked fairly well for him, but I don't think it should be a common practice.
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Rend4125
Smash Cadet
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- Billiam4125
One of the reasons I was using firebreath so much is because we don't have too many options on duckhunt, and thats one of the ways we can actually get in on him. A good duckhunt is quite rough on bowser.
firebreath also gets you out of the tumble animation and being combined with being close to the ground most opponents dont expect firebreath to come out. its overall a really good spacing tool and with the proper reads can be a pretty safe option imo. But that of course if very character dependent. You wouldnt see me using that many firebreaths on little macs, shieks, or sonics since they can punish it very easily if you miss. D3s you have to be careful about as well... I ate a few gordos because of misplaced firebreaths in one of my matches.
Thirdly unless our opponent is right under us its one of the best landing options when we are getting pursued, unless you know they are fast enough to get under you. I would try to go for the dair/bowserbomb reads to break shield at points, sometimes it paid off and sometimes it wouldnt. I got a few shield breaks in top 16 for bowserbombing but the only one recorded was with me vs duck. I think that as bowser your gonna have to do some risky things like that to get back down sometimes, since we are so limited when we are in the air.
firebreath also gets you out of the tumble animation and being combined with being close to the ground most opponents dont expect firebreath to come out. its overall a really good spacing tool and with the proper reads can be a pretty safe option imo. But that of course if very character dependent. You wouldnt see me using that many firebreaths on little macs, shieks, or sonics since they can punish it very easily if you miss. D3s you have to be careful about as well... I ate a few gordos because of misplaced firebreaths in one of my matches.
Thirdly unless our opponent is right under us its one of the best landing options when we are getting pursued, unless you know they are fast enough to get under you. I would try to go for the dair/bowserbomb reads to break shield at points, sometimes it paid off and sometimes it wouldnt. I got a few shield breaks in top 16 for bowserbombing but the only one recorded was with me vs duck. I think that as bowser your gonna have to do some risky things like that to get back down sometimes, since we are so limited when we are in the air.