Bowser 1.06 changes

[Overswarm]

This is on Reddit:

Bowser

• knockback has been increased for most attacks CONFIRMED
• Fthrow 115% vs. 130% at edge CONFIRMED
• Bthrow 117% vs. 133% at edge CONFIRMED
• Bair 100% vs. 105% from center CONFIRMED
• Fair 110% vs. 121% at edge CONFIRMED
• Fsmash from center 59% vs. 68% CONFIRMED
• Usmash 87% vs. 91% off the top CONFIRMED
• Dair non-spike-non-weak hit 91% vs. 100% at edge CONFIRMED
• Dair spike hit 132% vs. 137% CONFIRMED
• Utilt back hitbox 132% vs. 139% off the top CONFIRMED
• Utilt top of Mario's jump 115% vs. 123% off the top CONFIRMED
• Ftilt 108% vs. 119% at edge CONFIRMED
• Dtilt hit1 93% vs. 101% at edge CONFIRMED
• Jab combo 139% vs. 150% at edge CONFIRMED
• Side-b 116% vs. 124% off the top CONFIRMED
• Down-b (grounded) 82% vs. 88% off the top CONFIRMED
• Up-b (grounded) 161% vs. 171% from the center CONFIRMED

Can anyone actually confirmed this in any capacity?

Also apparently we have better control over bowsercide at all %, although I dunno who doesn't use koopa klaw.

 

[MasterCheeze]

Damn, if this is all true then I'd saw Bowser made out the best in the patch so far.

 

[Zigsta]

Upthrow cooldown also got reduced. I didn't have time this morning to test knockback on anything.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I can confirm that Bowser is exerting more control over Bowsercide when using Flying Slam. Though by how much more I can't yet pin down.

Regarding this list, can you provide a link to where you found it? We have to see testing methods in order to see a difference in any move that doesn't have a vertical kill angle. And we have to remember that it might not be a boost in knockback, but a different angle that allows for earlier KOs.

Bowser Bomb from the ground (meaning that the rising hit is also connecting) kills Mario on Final Destination at precisely 82%, no earlier. And while our old data suggests that Mario needed 87%, we still need to consider whether it's an angular change. Also, I need to find precisely what our old tests were, and whether I'm remembering them correctly.

 

[Overswarm]

OR

you could just do an f-throw by ledge and see if it kills at 130% or 115% depending on patch

original post on reddit:
http://smashboards.com/attachments/boozer-jpg.47610/

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

OR

you could just do an f-throw by ledge and see if it kills at 130% or 115% depending on patch

original post on reddit:
http://smashboards.com/attachments/boozer-jpg.47610/

You don't understand. I was asking how this data was gathered. Whether the victim was Mario, whether the stage was Final Destination, whether this was tested in training mode, whether Mario was set to control so that he makes no inputs. But I already did the digging to find that picture, and it seems consistent between pre and post patch. The only problem is that we can't lock down what actually changed with Bowser's moves until we have one of Dantarion's data dumps online to compare with. It could be base knockback, knockback growth, knockback angle. What we do know is that moves are killing faster, and that's not good enough for our growing community patch notes.

 

[Zigsta]

OR

you could just do an f-throw by ledge and see if it kills at 130% or 115% depending on patch

original post on reddit:
http://smashboards.com/attachments/boozer-jpg.47610/

Yes, but the reduced cooldown on upthrow really isn't used in situations where fthrow is used, so the "OR" isn't accurate. The cooldown makes it so that you can follow with fair (and at times nair or upair) a loooooot easier at low-mid percents. Upthrow was never used in KO setup scenarios, and that isn't going to change post patch.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

The KB changes for Usmash and Bomb make sense because they deal 1% more damage than before, which would result in slightly better kill percentages. Dsmash is dealing 1% more damage than before as well and kills earlier than before.

Dash Klaw also stops air momentum.

 

[Corgian]

I want to believe this is all true, I do from the bottom of my heart. So let's please get some confirmation. I'd test this if I wasn't working on a paper all week.

 

[JohnnyB]

Does bowsercide still behave the same with some levels ending in a loss for bowser and some ending in sudden death?

I was hoping they would fix bowsercide but it looks like that is not the case...

 

[Zigsta]

I have a pre patch 3DS I can use for testing, but I can't test until tomorrow morning at the earliest.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J JohnnyB Normal Klaw always results in our death first. I've never seen it go to sudden death on all the 3ds stages I've tried to Bowsercide on. Dash Klaw will result in our death first, but the opponent is less likely to escape being killed right after. Dash Klaw Bowsercide results in sudden death randomly on certain stages, like omega yoshi's island.

 

[Corgian]

Does bowsercide still behave the same with some levels ending in a loss for bowser and some ending in sudden death?

I was hoping they would fix bowsercide but it looks like that is not the case...

It's still a problem, but now it goes to Sudden Death on Smashville and the Omega too.

 

[Thinkaman]

No sure on the Flying Slam control stuff, but everything else appears false.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes. Some moron is probably testing 3DS FD against WiiU FD.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yes. Some moron is probably testing 3DS FD against WiiU FD.

This is the discrepancy I was looking for. 3DS and Wii U have different boundaries for Final Destination, correct?

As for Flying Slam, I can't get this information past all the placebo posts in the 1.06 thread. The proof is here. I can confirm that Bowser now has substantially more control than he did when I tested for all of this. I haven't updated the thread with any new values because it needs to exist long enough for the change to be chronicled in the 1.06 community notes.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Thinkaman Can you confirm the results I'm getting for Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, and Bowser Bomb damage? I'm seeing 1% more damage on those moves (Bowser Bomb dealing the extra damage on the way down). I've been referencing the smash 4 wiki and the 1.0.4 frame data on pastebin for the previous values. Testing was done on 3ds in standard matches.

 

[Thinkaman]

@ Thinkaman Can you confirm the results I'm getting for Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, and Bowser Bomb damage? I'm seeing 1% more damage on those moves (bowser bomb dealing the extra damage on the way down). My reference is the smash 4 wiki and the 1.0.4 frame data on pastebin for the previous values. I've been testing on 3ds in standard matches.

I'm getting the same damage on all those, in both versions as in the pastebin. Training mode? Stales moves would give you +1%...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Thinkaman I've been careful to kill myself to reset stale moves before obtaining values (with the opponent being at 0%). If you say that nothing's been changed, then I have only my 3ds to hate. I also made double sure I was not in training mode and that it was, indeed, standard match time battle.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

To clarify, Training mode has no stale or fresh moves. And when a move is fresh in a normal match (not staled at all) it deals about 5% more damage than the normal value, which we can see in training mode. 5% is enough to add a single percentage to strong moves such as smashes or Bowser Bomb. This is why we use training mode results for damage values and KO percents. It keeps results consistent and comparable.

I've got my unpatched 3DS version and wii U version side by side, and don't see damage differences with the moves you mention.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Zapp Branniglenn Okay, I didn't know about the fresh move bonus. It's just that every time I've done a Bowser Bomb in matches prior to this patch, fresh, the result was 24% damage on rising + falling hit. Now it's 25% fresh. I just wanted to make sure since it irks me to keep seeing different numbers on my screen.

 

[S_B]

No sure on the Flying Slam control stuff.

It's legit.

Tested it myself. Bowser has tons more control now.

Also, Bowserciding on Smashville (normal) previously gave the opponent the win on last stock but now it goes to SD.

Only stage I've found so far that does this...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Also, Bowserciding on Smashville (normal) previously gave the opponent the win on last stock but now it goes to SD.

Only stage I've found so far that does this...

Negative, in this thread I made a tab detailing stages where the opponent can attempt recovery (meaning that it does not go to SD). Smashville was always one of the good ones where both characters are killed at the same time.

 

[S_B]

Negative, in this thread I made a tab detailing stages where the opponent can attempt recovery (meaning that it does not go to SD). Smashville was always one of the good ones where both characters are killed at the same time.

Oh whoops. I was going by the list in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-and-the-suicide-clause.392566/

My mistake then.

 

[Big Sean]

So is there no confirmation on the knockback stuff? I can check on my unpatched wii u today. I'll do vs. Mario on FD in training mode. I have a feeling the internet is just straight wrong about this.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Big Sean Thinkaman debunked the knock back change claims.

 

[S_B]

The massive irony right now is that the change to flying slam makes Bowserciding on a stock lead super easy.

If you thought people were crying about Bowsercide before, you ain't seen NOTHIN' yet...

 

[x45x]

So i signed up because i needed to comment and ask a question. His jab and f-tilt changed. I really don't want to think im that effected by placebo but its bothering me. I feel his jab hits ten miles further than it used to and his f-tilt does not go as far anymore but it may be safer? I was fighting my boyfriend tonight and I could not for the life of me figure out what it was. But i can also jab crouch cancel way faster than before. I don't have the equipment to record this stuff but as a very dedicated Bowser main i wanna find every last engine change and Bowser change. SO this is what i have felt, and then ill try to test stuff on my 3ds and wii u and see what i can find.

-Everything feels like it hits harder. Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair etc. f-tilt and jab jab even. I dont know what they did but its crazy how hard i have been hitting and how far they have been flying.
-Up Throw endlag reduced (i know one of you said it already but im just happy i noticed it all by myself =D)
-Fair range changed? frames? something? I def was hitting when i wasn't last patch, and i almost feel like i can fade it away on shorthop better? maybe its more shield stun?
-Jabs feel funny. Go further, potentially higher, potentially Bowser's head is pulled back a little further? I have no idea but it does not feel like yesterday thats for sure.
-Ftilt range nerf? still hits like a truck, and comes out super fast, and maybe is safer?

Im going to start testing on no patch smash 3ds and 1.06. Bowser did not get range changes from vanilla to 1.05. So i can only assume 1.06 and vanilla will be accurate for some of this. But if anyone one else has noticed this or think im crazy do tell. Im just at that point where i cant tell anymore if it has always been this good or if im going nuts. Cheers!

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ x45x I noticed no discernible difference between the two patches in regards to range and KB. Good luck on your testing, though. It's important to do these things yourself if it bothers you. Also, welcome to the Bowser boards. Hope you enjoy your time here.

 

[x45x]

This just in i may be crazy. Or to tired to actually pick it apart. I cant tell if the range is any longer (3ds screen is also small, i wish i had another Wii u to test on), But something about it still feels different. Tonight more than any other night when i was sparring i got weird weird hits with Bowser that have never really hit like that before. Im sure its entirely possible it was new for me. But it was so consistent I could not shake the notion. When we get more solid notes with people who can actually record this stuff (i have been up way to late and lack any recording devices) maybe ill be able to make more sense of it. It was killing me and i wanted to post and see if anyone else was feeling that. As for now ill enjoy my throw combos =D.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This just in i may be crazy. Or to tired to actually pick it apart. I cant tell if the range is any longer (3ds screen is also small, i wish i had another Wii u to test on), But something about it still feels different. Tonight more than any other night when i was sparring i got weird weird hits with Bowser that have never really hit like that before. Im sure its entirely possible it was new for me. But it was so consistent I could not shake the notion. When we get more solid notes with people who can actually record this stuff (i have been up way to late and lack any recording devices) maybe ill be able to make more sense of it. It was killing me and i wanted to post and see if anyone else was feeling that. As for now ill enjoy my throw combos =D.

Whenever a new patch comes out, the prospect that things may be changed gets peoples' imaginations running. That's why it's so important to have functional means of testing things. You claim moves were hitting in ways that they didn't before, and we've confirmed for certain attacks already that they have added various sourspots and hitbox adjustments to moves in interesting ways. For instance, Luigi's Fireball has a sourspot now, and Samus' Ftilt has four different hitboxes instead of the previous three. Here's a helpful link. One of the spoiler tabs contains frame data for Bowser's moves. It will tell you how many hitboxes exist for a move, what frames they come out, and how strong they are. It may be confusing to decipher and compare to the game screen on your tv, but I encourage you use this to lock down what seems different. Be sure and post in that thread if you know you've got something. This thread is kinda defunct since its just a copypasta of an incorrect reddit post, and one small piece of confirmed info that we did actually find.

 

[Yonder]

So...Bowser didn't get KB buffs? All the info in the OP is false?

:,[

 

[Overswarm]

Seems that way according to thinkaman -- I played with Bowser and I saw a few kills that were super early but at the same its bowser, so....

 

[S_B]

The stuff was tested by a guy using FD 3DS and FD Wii U, not realizing that these are two very different levels across consoles with very different KO walls.

Hence why it looks like Bowser was universally buffed.

 

[Corgian]

Never trust reddit with this stuff.

 

[S_B]

I WISH Bowser had received buffs like that, but the only definite buff is the change to flying slam control (which I woke up at 6AM EST to test, find and report, thank you!).