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Blast Processing Cinemax: Sonic Video Thread/Critique thread

GabPR

Smash Lord
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So guys, I'm going to need your help on this. MD Sanic Represent!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDZ8RlTcEVM

I feel like, honestly, I should have taken that game home, but instead I get the chokesies at the wrong times.
On top of that, I also feel as if I make the wrong decisions at weird times, so if y'all can help me, with advice\tips to pull through to avoid this from happening again I'd appreciate it :D

Some things I noticed I did wrong:
  • Coming on stage after UP-B into Down air.
  • Missing a couple ledge grabs on accident, but it attempted to happen, 12:23, and somewhere else around there.
  • Missing a side B cancel grab.
    etc etc, any other things that are found would really help me out
In Progress of learning.
  • Just learned how to spinshot 95% of the time, so in the Next Xanadu (Tomorrow) I'll heavily showcase it. Now, I can stop trying to gimp people with spring all the time.
First of I would like to say that I love your play style with Sonic. Your movement around the map and the control you have with him when doing combos are really solid. You also did a really good job most of the time when it came to choosing the moments in which to go in and baiting your opponent for a big punish. Overall I liked the matches and they where really closed too. Now I have watched it a couple off times and have wrote some suggestions that I hope that you can find useful:

  • I would like to point out that I noticed that you have tendencies when it comes to ledge guarding that showed off most of the time. For starters, you missed some edge grabbing opportunities in a lot of instances besides 12:23, the times being around 2:32, 3:37, 7:07, 7:50 (after the side b kick animation ended at the ledge, you could of side b to grab it), 8:10, 8:40, 12:30, 13:47 and 14:14. Now I understand that some of these instances you did attempt to ledge grab, but most of the ones mentioned are instances in which you chose not to. The reason I point this out is because I feel that your not using many of the effective tools sonic has at his disposal besides his spring. For example, ledge grabbing by running off the stage, side b on the ledge, then quickly letting go and hit your opponent with nair or bair. If you do it quickly enough it will be really safe due to invincibility frames.
  • In the few times I saw you grab the ledge like 4:16 or 7:13 you rolled into the stage those 2 times while you could of used the things I mentioned before, something to keep in mind.
  • Lastly is something I feel all of us Sonic do in one way of the other (including myself) and that is doing dair after spring almost every time. Work with avoiding that since eventually it might be really predictable for the opponent.
Anything else besides that was not noticeable in my eye. I hope that you find this helpful to improve your game. Any corrections to what I wrote is more than welcomed. Thanks for posting the matches!
 

Neptune Shiranui

Shadow Streak~
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So guys, I'm going to need your help on this. MD Sanic Represent!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDZ8RlTcEVM

I feel like, honestly, I should have taken that game home, but instead I get the chokesies at the wrong times.
On top of that, I also feel as if I make the wrong decisions at weird times, so if y'all can help me, with advice\tips to pull through to avoid this from happening again I'd appreciate it :D

Some things I noticed I did wrong:
  • Coming on stage after UP-B into Down air.
  • Missing a couple ledge grabs on accident, but it attempted to happen, 12:23, and somewhere else around there.
  • Missing a side B cancel grab.
    etc etc, any other things that are found would really help me out
In Progress of learning.
  • Just learned how to spinshot 95% of the time, so in the Next Xanadu (Tomorrow) I'll heavily showcase it. Now, I can stop trying to gimp people with spring all the time.
Try to use spring more to gimp your opponent, and use blast attack during the side-b cancel as it can lead into combos. Other than that, really loved the matches! Your mobility with Sonic is incredible!
 

Espy Rose

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My gripe with the gameplay is actually his overusage of both spring offstage and of spring > dair in general.
Sonic has so many options for ledge guarding, and the fact that you consistently just used spring for every recovery option GIMR took just makes it that much harder to KO him when he realizes that that's all you're ever going to do to him.

The announcer's even chimed in on it. Sometimes, you're just so, so much better just grabbing the ledge. Even if Marth makes it back on stage, he's vulnerable from upB landing lag long enough for you to waveland > smash or waveland > grab > bthrow to repeat the process. Ledgehogging is an exceptionally powerful tool vs. Marth. It only makes sense to abuse it to death.

I also think you could be a bit more liberal with your fair. It's a fast, decent ranged tool that can challenge Marth when spaced properly, and with the strong mixup game you have going on from what I saw in the videos, I feel like it could easily become a boon to your damage output.

Your output is the last big issue I think you might have. Even the commentary was joking about how little you were doing. I mean, damage is damage, but if you're putting in so much effort via movement and sideB/neutralB techs, then you should probably be getting more out of it than 1-3%. I think it's more of an opportunity to try out some higher end damage, especially on the front of the blast attack from the sideB itself. It does lead into some pretty effective setups, and at low percents, can combo into uair1, which gives you ample time for the dash attack > grab setup.

It's a bit nitpicky, but the last thing altogether that I'd suggest looking at is toning down is your flashiness. You had great opportunities for damage or pressure that you gave up for... whatever reason other than winning that you might have. Uthrow into jump behind them and downB confused the hell out of me because it was totally unnecessary. Uthrow fair or sweetspot nair, or even bair would've been far, far more effective with damage, setups, and landing pressure, all of which Sonic can abuse a character like Marth for exceptionally well. On some level, I feel like you should experiment with simpler setups just for the sake of taking some of that edge off. Playing flashy and fancy is nice and all, and it really catches the eye, but being that consistent for an entire tournament isn't gonna net you much when the game evolves more, and players start getting more consistent with the far more effective punishers.

Plus, given the way the meta's developing for the game (read: Not at all), picking easier options from things like an uthrow setup will keep that edge off when it comes to that consistent fanciness.

One thing that I will praise exceptionally is your movement. By god watching you cross him up over and over was beautiful. That's the kind of movement Sonic excels on, and its what makes him so incredibly difficult to hit and combo. If you trim back your spring > dair habit, it'll only improve from there.

Oh, and specifically against Marth, when its safe, it might be easier for you to cancel downBs with shield for the screech stop over jumping. Marth wins vs. Sonic when the Sonic is in the air, and that was your main means of getting out of the downB.

That's all I have to say about it. Keep that movement game up. It was sexy.

:applejack:
 

Nazo

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Sup MapMark, I enjoyed your matches, you did a great job and I think these tips will get you the win next time:

I noticed your JCgrabs out of side-b were on point; however, you always seemed to go for a regular dash grab outside of side-b usage. This got you punished often and lead to you getting worked offstage. Just practice more JCgrabs without side-b to avoid this, this way, if you miss the grab you can react with one of sonic's frame advantaged attacks (dash attack, Utilt, jab, side-b, another JCgrab or even Ftilt with correct spacing).

Your mix-ups were good as well when you were already inside your opponent, but it appears that when you were attempting to go in you would always approach with nair or side-b from mid-range. Nair is good on shield, but if you want the shield advantage (or neutral advantage I should say) then you should activate the early hitbox on nair much later when you approach with it. Also, Sonic's side-b doesn't clash with any attacks so this is a very poor approach; instead, you could side-b and wavedash back to bait a whiff, (this can be followed up with a Ftilt, grab, nair or any creative cross-ups you may have).
Fair is also a decent approach, but be cautious, most competent players are always expecting a character's longest ranged move during the neutral game stand-off. Use it wisely.

After watching your matches with GimR, I noticed that you would nearly always spotdodge when he was behind you with your shield up (or in your personal space at all). Sonic's spotdodge is good, but you don't want your opponent to catch on to your habit. When you're trapped inside of your shield as Sonic you have these very few options:
-Uair OoS
-Nair OoS
-Side-B OoS
-Blast attack OoS
-Wavedash OoS

Now of course Fair, Dair, Bair and other specials can be used OoS but they are situational.
Against taller characters such as Marth, your better options are Uair, side-b, BA and wavedash. If you'd rather avoid conflict at all, I'd advise wavedash OoS or a retreating side-b OoS.

One last very VERY important thing I noticed as well; you did not strike/ban BF and FoD vs. Marth. Always ban these two stages against sword characters such as Marth/Roy/Ike, save the third ban for your personal worst stage. And if you can, avoid YS as well. You never want to take a melee veteran to YS, BF or FoD, it's a death wish.
 
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DireDrop

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One last very VERY important thing I noticed as well; you did not strike/ban BF and FoD vs. Marth. Always ban these two stages against sword characters such as Marth/Roy/Ike, save the third ban for your personal worst stage. And if you can, avoid YS as well. You never want to take a melee veteran to YS, BF or FoD, it's a death wish.
Can you explain the logic behind this? If you were talking about just Marth, I would get that because of his range, but I don't understand why Ike and Roy are dangerous on BF and FD.
 

Nazo

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Can you explain the logic behind this? If you were talking about just Marth, I would get that because of his range, but I don't understand why Ike and Roy are dangerous on BF and FD.
All three of those characters share the same kind of advantage on those stages. Their range allows them to effortlessly platform pressure you and keep you out as you try to recover. These stages are also very small, limiting movement options and decreasing sonic's ability to bait. Although Roy and Ike do not have a tipper system like Marth, they still share its kill power. Platforms on these stages also stuffs your ability to approach or mix-up with HA and BA, forcing a more linear game for Sonic to follow. You never want your approach game to become limited to an X and Y axis.
 

DireDrop

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Oh lol, I just realized I read your "FoD" as "FD" as in: "Final Destination." Banning Battlefield and Fountain of Dreams against sword characters makes a lot more sense.
 

GabPR

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Great advice Nazo, also it would have been great to have seen you and Mapmark battle it out in the stream of the Xanadu tourney. Never seen Sonic dittos between two good players before, I bet it would be really fun.
 

Nazo

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Great advice Nazo, also it would have been great to have seen you and Mapmark battle it out in the stream of the Xanadu tourney. Never seen Sonic dittos between two good players before, I bet it would be really fun.
Lol, I've only ever played the Sonic ditto once before at an Arizona Bi-weekly. Unfortunately Mapmark didn't go Sonic vs. me, he went Pit. Needless to say, his Pit was just as good as his Sonic; it's very well polished and I think he should keep him as a solid secondary for unfamiliar/disadvantaged MUs.
 

Espy Rose

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I was happy they uploaded to Youtube. I was finally able to watch without the video freezing on me.
Since I watched them again, I noticed you had the same problem with ledge guarding with the whole relying on Spring a bit too often.

Not a big problem, but it kinda made your edgeguarding repetitive and predictable at times. The sideB mixups were a nice touch though. :applejack:
 

Nazo

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After watching my own matches I've noticed the same thing; Thanks though, that's an easy fix for me.
 

DireDrop

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Some Friendlies.

DireDrop (Sonic) vs. Scythe (Roy)

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=190m25s

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=201m47s

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=208m17s

DireDrop (Sonic) vs. HarryTheChin (Link)

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=197m05s

Edit: Oops, forgot the crew battle.

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=335m17s

That was just for fun though. I feel like edge guarding is the worst part of my play, but I'd appreciate advice on anything.

Also, what am I supposed to do against Zelda?

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=337m56s

I feel like I won only because the Zelda got reckless with her neutral Bs. I'm not sure what I'd do against a more defensive, safer Zelda.
 
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DuoMaxwell

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Some Friendlies.

DireDrop (Sonic) vs. Scythe (Roy)

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=190m25s

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=201m47s

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=208m17s

DireDrop (Sonic) vs. HarryTheChin (Link)

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=197m05s

Edit: Oops, forgot the crew battle.

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=335m17s

That was just for fun though. I feel like edge guarding is the worst part of my play, but I'd appreciate advice on anything.

Also, what am I supposed to do against Zelda?

http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/494545945?t=337m56s

I feel like I won only because the Zelda got reckless with her neutral Bs. I'm not sure what I'd do against a more defensive, safer Zelda.
Ha i was playing reckless after looking over it. I usually play Zelda more safe but i was psyching myself out cause of the match i seen you play before me and tbh i was scared lol. Also you were actually the first sonic i every played against(i haven't been playing the game that long tbh) and I seen your match before and i realized that if i had went sonic myself i would have gotten destroyed. I picked Zelda cause i didn't want to do badly for my team's sake but i really wanted to play the sonic ditto so you could have given me some pointers about where i should go when it comes to developing my sonic.
 

DireDrop

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Ha i was playing reckless after looking over it. I usually play Zelda more safe but i was psyching myself out cause of the match i seen you play before me and tbh i was scared lol. Also you were actually the first sonic i every played against(i haven't been playing the game that long tbh) and I seen your match before and i realized that if i had went sonic myself i would have gotten destroyed. I picked Zelda cause i didn't want to do badly for my team's sake but i really wanted to play the sonic ditto so you could have given me some pointers about where i should go when it comes to developing my sonic.
Oh lol. I had no idea you played Sonic. Going Zelda was a strong choice since I didn't know what to do in that Matchup. If you're just starting out, keep working on your basic tech skill. L-canceling, wavedashing, and especially dashdancing are going to be really important. Dashdancing especially so for Sonic. I'd mess around in training mode to get a sense for what Sonic's combo options are. His side-B is amazing because you can jump cancel it at the end. Mess around with Blast Attack too. It almost always combos into a Fair or something. Most importantly would be to just play crap ton of people. Friendlies are the best training tool.
 

DuoMaxwell

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Oh lol. I had no idea you played Sonic. Going Zelda was a strong choice since I didn't know what to do in that Matchup. If you're just starting out, keep working on your basic tech skill. L-canceling, wavedashing, and especially dashdancing are going to be really important. Dashdancing especially so for Sonic. I'd mess around in training mode to get a sense for what Sonic's combo options are. His side-B is amazing because you can jump cancel it at the end. Mess around with Blast Attack too. It almost always combos into a Fair or something. Most importantly would be to just play crap ton of people. Friendlies are the best training tool.
Thanks for the advice! i actually have been going to exp more recently now and have had the chance to really sit and play with a lot of people. Practicing tech skill was a challenge at first but i grasp the concept of it all, now its all about trying to implement it into an actual game lol. I just figured out how to wavedash out of side b so i'm getting there. I'm going to start playing sonic more now during friendlies for sure.
 

Mapmark659

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So I would love to put how I did last Xanadu, but I don't feel like putting up a twitch video, but instead the youtubes, so I'll wait for GIMR for that. Stay tuned!
 

Solharath

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Alright, here are some videos from Winner's Semis on to Grand Finals starting at 3:17:00
http://www.twitch.tv/rog48439/b/503704218

It starts off with Solharath (Sonic) vs. Anther (Pikachu).

At 4:14:00 You can see me struggle against Fox and lose 3-0 against Benji.

This leads straight into Solharath (Sonic) vs. Anther (Pikachu/Falco). You can really see just how poorly I handle the spacie matchup here. Game 5 is worthwhile to see, and you can count how many times I should have lost!
And then that leads straight into Grand Finals, Solharath (Sonic) vs. Benji (Fox).

I spent most of my 3 hour drive home thinking about how often I didn't not apply basic matchup knowledge, such as homing attack gimps and setups against the spacies.

ALSO my ftilt rage is still going. At absolute max range Sonic is still getting bopped by his feet getting attacked. I DON'T GET IT. I see the hitboxes and it is not matching up to the results I see in practice. I dunno, maybe people had insane disjoints on their moves that I don't know about.
 

KiNGMONiR

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Wow that comeback was amazing. You were really composed on your last stock considering the amount of damage.

What would you say is the best way to deal with Falco with Sonic is? I noticed a lot of dash attacks and that you used up throw a lot. It seemed a lot like go in, do damage, get out, repeat.

Personally I can't deal with Falco's pressure at all but you did well I think.
 

Espy Rose

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It sucks to fight Falco in Brawl, and it sucks to fight him in P:M.

I didn't play optimal in that set, or any from that tournament (there's others on that uploaders page), but from what I experienced, it's just like Brawl in that you need a grab to set up your damage, or landing a move that just gets him off the ground and towards the ledge.

I will forever hate Falco lasers. :applejack:
 

Strong Badam

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Doesn't look like you know the timing for when you can drop off a ledge after grabbing it, unless you were intentionally ledgehopping w/o invincibility. It's a lot faster than Brawl. Good stuff that last stock, it was pretty hype haha.
 

Espy Rose

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I feel conflicted about the compliment. :applejack:

I'm aware of the ledge time. I played Melee.
I just stayed because **** Falco.
 
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i was hoping you would've just ended that last on PS1 with a fair spike, just to be that guy. It's because of that new fair that i even mess around with PM because it just feels so amazing to be just be like "This is PM, I can just spike you now" :3
 

Espy Rose

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There's more getting uploaded on the channel. Here's Grand Finals.
As far as the set goes, it's not as impressive as WF (even though both are SD/"Let's not edgeguard because we suck" crap, but I like to think that there's some pretty cool ground/air movements going on in GFs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqjhSUvpH8

:applejack:
 
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StriderAaron360

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From what I can see, it seems like you're still trying to come out of your Brawl playstyle.

Using uair out of spring to recover from the bottom of the stage is a better option rather than fair, since uair has good priority, hits twice, and launches you higher.

You should use homing attack much more as well. Blast attack is great for a quick move when someone's just out of your grab range. I find that around 80+ percent, it can chain very well, too.

I'm sure this will come naturally to you, but consider incorporating weak side-b into your tech chases. I find that people usually like to shield when getting up after a roll, and weak side-b provides nice pressure. It's a nice option select too because if it doesn't work out the way you want, you can just jump cancel it; Sonic has the best JC grab in the game I think, so abuse it! JC homing attack is pretty good too.

Incorporating spinshot into your recovery helps as well when you need to mix up your options.

Overall, I'd say your Sonic is solid. I like your patience when going for punishes and grabs.
 
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GabPR

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I would like to post a stream of a tournament given in Puerto Rico in wich I participated. It is worth to mention that everyone hates Sonic. The times where I Believe I played are 45:27 Winners finals, 1:18:27 Grand Finals and an exhibition match at 1:45:56. Would appreciate some feedback and... as a precaution in advance... it may get a bit loud with the hype. Comentary is in spanish.
http://www.twitch.tv/gamersguildrum/b/507466678
 
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Croi

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Hey guys. I main Meta Knight in P:M, but I picked up Sonic for some MUs and scenarios that I don't think MK does very well in, and I think Sonic is really fun to play. I used him for the first time in my recent monthly, just last weekend, and I thought I could get some general advice for how I play him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bhsonvwKyE vs :popo: (second match)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0JPi3sZNCs vs :ivysaur:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGEfpCYWyf8 vs :ganondorf: (first match)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f9rj5WjlTI vs :ivysaur: GF (2nd, 3rd and 4th matches)

I originally picked up Sonic because the Ganondorf mollywhopped me pretty hard last monthly, and I decided I might need a Sonic in case MK's not working out for me. My Sonic's only two or three weeks old, and most of it is practicing against CPU's, so I know it's really unconventional and so much more different than the other Sonic's here. I'm not very technically minded: I don't do a lot of combos like I know Sonic can do, seeing these other Sonics put in work, and I focus more on bigger hits to keep my opponents moving and using my superior speed and their hitstun to my advantage and chasing them down.

I generally think my Sonic does better against Ivysaur than my MK does, and the Ivysaur agrees, but he's still beating me consistently. I didn't think to try and gimp her with the spring (which she's apparently very weak against), but overall I think my losing to Ivysaur is more my being inexperienced with my character than him outplaying me. I could use some advice for the MU.
 

DireDrop

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Croi. You should stay grounded more. Pretty much all you did was spin-dash -> jump -> something in the air -> land and repeat. One of Sonic's greatest strengths is his amazing dash, and you can't put that to use if you're in the air. Also, Down B is a move with a lot of commitment. Try using side B more. You can wavedash out of side B which lets you stay fluid while maintaining pressure.
 

WildFrost

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This thread has been incredibly helpful to watch some Sonic play. However, I still find myself struggling a lot, especially in specific matchups. Vs Snake is a good example of a matchup that I feel lost in. It feels nearly impossible to kill him and his punish game if I happen to clank an aerial into his shield is pretty scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe9wVfZPErk&feature=share&t=9h47m03s (Just first game)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe9wVfZPErk&feature=share&t=9h53m58s (Just first game)

Both of these games are good examples of what I'm talking about. Is there something specific about this matchup I'm doing wrong or does my play need work in general :). I've only been playing PM for around a month and have no previous Smash experience so this game is a bit hard for me to wrap my head around. Any help is greatly appreciated :D.
 

Duum

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Just wanted to let GabPR know: that grand finals set was so hype.
 

GabPR

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it was sort of an east pr vs west pr kind of thing, at the end of the 4th match i thought i killed myself with dair, but I luckily I was high enough to survive the fall and take the win. Again any insight or sugestions from the outside are more than welcomed, since i can say I was playing far from perfect.
 
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