Best moves of each type

[Mario766]

If you whiff all those up smashes you lost the game already. Relying on pummels to unstale your moves is a bad habit and means you're fishing too heavily for kills instead of letting them come to you.

 

[Vyrnx]

If you whiff all those up smashes you lost the game already. Relying on pummels to unstale your moves is a bad habit and means you're fishing too heavily for kills instead of letting them come to you.

Tbh it sounds like you are arguing just to be contrarian, because that post isn't even comparing pummels, it's just saying, "Only bad players would prefer a fast pummel," when that's blatantly untrue. Or, "good players don't have to rely on pummels." Well, okay, but pummels unstaling moves is dependable and make those characters' lives easier, which is kind of the definition of better.

Let's look at Jigglypuff. When she uses only 2 moves, sometimes 3, for almost everything, she would benefit way more from Fox's pummel than she does her own, despite her pummel having the highest DPS. Is her pummel bad? No, but Fox's pummel would unstale her bair and fair twice as much as her own pummel does. And it doesn't even do that much less damage.

But I'm not really sure why I am replying, fast pummels have always been considered the best and you just wanna argue. Sorry, Ike's pummel isn't the best, he's just another character who would greatly prefer a fast pummel for unstaling moves like fair.

 

[dean.]

If you input pummels as fast as possible they only enter the stale move queue as one entry. This is true for fast pummels and even slower ones like Dedede's, so if you want to maximise the number of times your pummels enter the queue you would need to wait a moment in between each pummel and I'm not sure vs. a player mashing out of the grab you'd have enough time to do for it to be worth it. I'd prefer the high DPS pummels.

 

[Planty]

Mac's F-Tilt is overrated. It's unsafe unless at the end of the glove, even after the shield stun buff. Sheik's F-Tilt is much better because it's much safer and starts up combos. Mac's just kills at like 110 with rage. His down tilt is much better, it's basically the same as Diddy's except it comes out a frame earlier but is 3 frames laggier. They both set up amazingly for kill set-ups and is pretty safe on shield.

You exaggerate the unsafety of Mac's F-tilt. It doesn't need absolutely perfect spacing to be safe. As long as somebody is not in your face when you use it, it's quite safe.

The thing that makes it amazing, however, is that it has the same property as Palutena's Bair (I think it's called non-trample?). It beats out anything that doesn't have special properties (like being transcendent). So you have this extremely quick poke that beats out most other attacks, is relatively difficult to punish, and to top it off it's a kill move at a reasonable %.

 

[Lavani]

Mac's ftilt (and his jab, utilt, and dtilt) doesn't rebound when it clanks, so it continues through its animation. Palutena's bair just straight-up beats things with invincibility.

 

[Ffamran]

Mac's ftilt (and his jab, utilt, and dtilt) doesn't rebound when it clanks, so it continues through its animation. Palutena's bair just straight-up beats things with invincibility.

Wait, his jab and Dtilt can't recoil? That isn't listed on Kuro's site... I feel like they do, except for his rapid jab which can continue without clanking.

 

[Lavani]

Wait, his jab and Dtilt can't recoil? That isn't listed on Kuro's site... I feel like they do, except for his rapid jab which can continue without clanking.

MasterCore and ten seconds punching fireballs in training both disagree.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I think you should add Uthrow to the list because he can force a 50/50 kill with Uair if he reads air dodges. It reliably combos into Fair at mid %s as well.
Also, Has an excellent pivot grab that is often ignored because his throw game sucks. But it's up there with Bowser and DK in terms of pivot grab range.
Additionally, his Fair and Bair are both excellent and autocancel on short hop. Fair has a long lasting hitbox that can setup into another aerial after autocancelling, and Bair is strong enough to rival Falcon's.

Finally, has an excellent Uair that auto cancels and can catch opponents on ledges/platforms. It kills at reasonable %s and ends fairly fast.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Please add 's Bair in the list of Best Bairs, i don't get why it's not there already, put i'll make a list of its pros:
- Wonderful tool for pressuring as it SH FF Autocancels
- Deals a very good amount of damage: Approx 13,5%
- Excellent in Doc's kit: The move allows Doc to frametrap opponents effectively, especially when he combos them, in the air or in the ground, a followup into upb or upair or whatever option you'd like is nice.
- An effective tool in neutral, with a good amount of shieldstun to avoid punishes if well spaced: retreating bairs are effective. Late bairs on shield can also be followed by a grab as the move autocancels so nicely.
- The move is Frame 6, making it a potent out of shield option, adding on to Doc's wonderful OOS game.
- One of the best aerials for Ledge trumping, it's also decent at edgeguarding.
- Its knockback & angle are pretty good, you may catch kills with the move at high %, and if you didn't, you may be able to gimp your opponent, as he won't recover for free, given the angle of the move.

Overall, this move is certainly in Doc's Top 3 best moves, and one of the best bairs of the game thanks to its versatile use.

 

[Ultinarok]

Jab: Fast, conditions opponent's into follow-ups, including tipper F-Smash, huge reach.
Side Tilt: /Fast on start-up, kills nearly as early as side tilts twice as slow and has a lo of active frames because its two hits. For Sheik, should be obvious.
Up Tilt: Fast, big hitbox above Fox, combos into itself a lot, especially on fast fallers, good damage for how fast it is.
Down Tilt: Good spacing/poking tool, fast, works well with banana and can allow free Side Smash/Down Smash.
Dash Attack: Big reach, super fast and hard to punish, leads into all of his aerials/Up B and helps his approach immensely.

Side Smash: / Good power, good disjointed reach, punishes rolls, arguably best Side Smash to angle down or up as a punish, good start-up considering its advantages. For Marth, decently quick, disjointed and absurdly powerful on a tipper while being faster than any smash that can compare in power.

Up Smash: // All three are similar. Fast, very powerful when sweetspotted (near the beginning), help an already quick and combo friendly character score a stock on an easy read. Hard to punish on all three because of low lag and covering a wide area.

Down Smash: Low lag, great kill power on the rear hit, large enough hitbox to make it hard to punish, can nail recoveries.

Pummel: Super fast and highly damaging with aura.
Forward Throw: / Kill throw on a character with a good grab and decent approach.
Back Throw: Simply insane kill power.
Down Throw: Perfect combo starter in tandem with his dash grab and insane aerial punish game.
Up Throw: / Excellent kill throws, especially with platforms. Post patch Kirby's is also super strong and works well into his gameplay.

Nair: Very low lag overall, incredible disjoint, covers a wide radius around Shulk, works well in a full hop or a short hop, best combo starter for him, extremely versatile.
Fair: Duh. Lagless, spammable, ultimate edgeguarding tool, extremely safe and deceptive hitbox.
Bair: . Very quick, very powerful, low landing lag, great reach, by far Ike's best finisher and the move nearly every character should fear from an airborne Ike.
Uair: Quick, covers a wide area, works immensely well with her high jumps, combos into itself and BK. Hard to punish.
Dair: INSANE power, both on sweetspot and sourspot, decent startup, enormous hitbox on Ganon's full body, can kill both onstage and offstage. On any other character, simply broken.

N-Special: / Most versatile neutral special in the game; a button that basically makes Shulk into anything you need him to be. Some specials are better for specific jobs, but Shulk's is a control button that is the only way he can really shine. Kirby's is technically everyone's, meaning he wins this contest no matter what if he's swallowed someone. Inhale isn't good on his own, so he gets this one on principle alone.
S-Special: Great damage, good all-purpose projectile, sets up free grabs and aerials strings, edgeguards, hard to punish considering all of its strengths.

U-Special: / Good for recovery, hard to punish or intercept, kills off the top absurdly early, easy to combo into, low start-up and only really punishable on a whiff.
D-Special: / Both incredible recovery options, punish tools, edgeguarding tools, combo finishers and KO moves. Also both versatile in application in each of these roles.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Please add 's Bair in the list of Best Bairs, i don't get why it's not there already, put i'll make a list of its pros:
- Wonderful tool for pressuring as it SH FF Autocancels
- Deals a very good amount of damage: Approx 13,5%
- Excellent in Doc's kit: The move allows Doc to frametrap opponents effectively, especially when he combos them, in the air or in the ground, a followup into upb or upair or whatever option you'd like is nice.
- An effective tool in neutral, with a good amount of shieldstun to avoid punishes if well spaced: retreating bairs are effective. Late bairs on shield can also be followed by a grab as the move autocancels so nicely.
- The move is Frame 6, making it a potent out of shield option, adding on to Doc's wonderful OOS game.
- One of the best aerials for Ledge trumping, it's also decent at edgeguarding.
- Its knockback & angle are pretty good, you may catch kills with the move at high %, and if you didn't, you may be able to gimp your opponent, as he won't recover for free, given the angle of the move.

Overall, this move is certainly in Doc's Top 3 best moves, and one of the best bairs of the game thanks to its versatile use.

While I don't necessarily disagree with that post, rating Bairs can be quite the task. Bair is usually a character's top# move.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Don't see why Mario or Luigi are listed for best back throws. Nothing about them is spectacular. They don't kill very early unless you have rage or are on the side of the stage and they can be DI'd easily. And if they were somehow amazing, Doc's would have to be included as well.

I guess we can add to these lists now? I think he has a few noteworthy moves.

Up-Air: Combos into other moves (Nair, Up Tilt, Up Air, etc.), comes out quickly, active hitbox, kills early, low end lag, does 13%.
Neutral- Air: Comes out frame 5, covers a lot of space, sends opponents at a good angle for gimping, low end lag.
Down-B (Limit Break): Starts charging quickly, cancelling with B has very low cooldown so he can act very quickly out of it.
Back-Air: Slow, but has good range, does good damage, has low end lag and has good knockback.

Other moves
Jab: and have reasonably fast jabs with low cooldown and good range.
Forward Tilt: has a good one. Comes out quickly, hits on both sides, decent range, good KO potential.
Down Tilt: and : Comes out on Frame 5, good range, can combo into other moves (more relevant for Mario) or set up for grabs (more relevant for Doc).
Up Tilt: : High risk, high reward move. 6 frames, 17% damage, high KO potential, making it a powerful OOS.

Forward Smash: : Comes out quickly, decent range, good KO potential. Bananas allow him to combo into it.
Up Smash: None
Down Smash: Don't know why is there. Nothing really great about his Down Smash. and have fast ones that hit on both sides, and hit below the ledge.

Nair: Aside from , and should be up there. Both of their Nairs come out quickly, allowing them to escape pressure. Both moves have a good amount of active frames. Shiek can combo into Bouncing Fish off of late Nair.
Fair: : Mewtwo's hits hard, comes out quickly, has relatively low end lag, deals good damage and be comboed into. 's can be used to edgeguard. Trading with some moves causes a semi-spike effect. Otherwise, it's just powerful on the sides of the stage.
Bair: Aside from , should definitely be added for these reasons.

Please add 's Bair in the list of Best Bairs, i don't get why it's not there already, put i'll make a list of its pros:
- Wonderful tool for pressuring as it SH FF Autocancels
- Deals a very good amount of damage: Approx 13,5%
- Excellent in Doc's kit: The move allows Doc to frametrap opponents effectively, especially when he combos them, in the air or in the ground, a followup into upb or upair or whatever option you'd like is nice.
- An effective tool in neutral, with a good amount of shieldstun to avoid punishes if well spaced: retreating bairs are effective. Late bairs on shield can also be followed by a grab as the move autocancels so nicely.
- The move is Frame 6, making it a potent out of shield option, adding on to Doc's wonderful OOS game.
- One of the best aerials for Ledge trumping, it's also decent at edgeguarding.
- Its knockback & angle are pretty good, you may catch kills with the move at high %, and if you didn't, you may be able to gimp your opponent, as he won't recover for free, given the angle of the move.

Overall, this move is certainly in Doc's Top 3 best moves, and one of the best bairs of the game thanks to its versatile use.

Uair: No one.
Dair: No one.

Neutral B: No one
Side B: :Can lead to strong tech chases and no techs usually means getting killed with Down Tilt or Forward Tilt.
Up-B: Maybe . Frame 3 on the ground, very strong.
Down-B: and : They get a lot out of bombs. Zoning (and stage control), hit confirms, recovery.

Nothing on grabs.

Forward Throw: None
Back Throw: None, but I don't think Mario and Luigi belong there.
Up Throw: None
Down Throw: Combos into a lot of aerials at most percentages.

Nothing on Pummels.

 

[ARGHETH]

Side B: :Can lead to strong tech chases and no techs usually means getting killed with Down Tilt or Forward Tilt.

The problem is, people will tech, and basically any hitbox stops it anyways. Plus, it's F16.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Throws: Bowser uthrow

 

[aεrgiα]

i second bair and uair for being included. i also want to point out fair, its been mentioned a few times but its just been ignored for no reason... that move is amazing, disregarding specials, its arguably gunners best move and definitely deserves to be on this list, id even go as far as saying its contender for the best fair in the game... on the topic of i also think that her utilt should be considered, it combos at low % is incredibly fast(i believe frame 6 or something like that) and kills really early considering its speed. i believe utilt is also a good option which could make this list.
i would also at least want to mention , and uairs, the first 2 being great at trapping airdodges, gunners lasts longer than an air dodge whilst links i believes lasts just as long as an air dodge, links is also great at killing and hugely disjointed, i see no reason it shouldnt be on this list. and mii swords uair has great damage, it kills reasonably early and has a very nice hitbox(not to meantion it combos from dthrow but we are only evaluating moves in a vacuum so meh). it may be main bias, but i definitely think dthrow should be on this list, it combos into all of his aerials(and would therefore combo well for other characters too, his aerials frame data isnt amazing by any means) until high percents, ~120% for most chars(kill percents even for uair and bair, but once again, looking at moves on their own...) it sets up for footstool combos too, so any character that can jablock would love it, the only thing it doesnt do is kill... but then no dthrow, bar shulks i believe, kills. on the topic of lucas, i would actually propose removing his dsmash from the list, because while it does cover the ledge exceptionally well, its not a continuous hitbox, so it depends on timing it well. the fact that if u block the first hit, or get hit by it, the other 2 hits do absolutely nothing except look pretty means that theyre basically just extra endlag. i think instead, dsmash may actualy deserve its place, its great at covering the ledge and sends at a great angle too, without the stupid endlag of lucas' dsmash, but lucas dsmash is great at covering the ledge against certain chars, so u can keep it there if u want, seeing as gnw's dsmash is also there :/
dsmash, while not exactly great at killing, is a good gtfo option, and i think that could be included too.
im also not sold on down b inclusion, i mean mecha koopa definitely isnt bad but its probably the easiest spawnable item to pick up out of all of them(as the opponent), and i think / bombs would deserve a place more than this, since they spawn directly as a throwable item(u dont have to chase them to pick them up) and are overall more useful for follow ups etc imo :/ i also think down b coul be included in the list, its an absolute pain for projectile characters to deal with and its the sole reason why the rosa ness mu is considered 70:30.
i also think down b could be on that list, tree is great by itself, but the true beauty of it is the axe, fast and strong, what more can u ask for
on neutral specials, how is not there?(his down b should also be considered for its absolutely stupid duration) i mean his monados are the only thing even keeping him viable... and just imagine a character like sheik with monados... or zss, or pika, or any character with half decent frame data for that matter, i shudder at the thought...
and then compare that with luigis fireball, dhds can, metal blade, arc thunder, samus charge shot etc. yeah, i fail to see how he hasnt made this list

side b: i think pk fire could go here, its possibly the best wavebounce in the game, is a great spacing tool and is better than a few of the side specials on the list imo. and im surprised theres no mention of cape in there, as that move has great utility.

as for up b, i would personally place up b on that list, its got great distance, and kills stupidly early too, if docs/samus' up b can make this list zeldas definitely should.
this is probably a weird suggestion, but i think up b could also be considered because, outside of recovery purposes where its just straight out bad (like docs and dks too, and they made the list) its a useful tool in other situations, good for edgeguards, can be used to juggle, can be used to cover the ledge before u snap to it to make edgeguarding it harder, and ive seen it even used in "neutral"(long range), though i have no clue how good of an option it is for that :/
i also think could be considered over as both are good oos options, but charizards is stronger and has super armour, samus' does come out faster though, thought id mention it anyway

as for dair, i think the s, (for a sheer spike, better than falcon imo) and deserve a mention...


tldr:
changes i think defintely should happen(in order of conviction from top to bottom):
neutral b:(imo best in the game)
fair:
dthrow:(imo best in the game)
.
.
.
.
.
.
up b:
side b:
down b: // over and
bair:


potential/suggested changesnot ordered)
down b:
dair:
utilt:
uair:
dsmash: and possibly replacing and :/
up b:

side b:

 

[LightLV]

Came in for Link's Nair

Left disappointed

Also, Marth/Lucina's Up-B are pretty amazing. Invincible, good OOS, extremely easy stagespike, ridiculous vertical range, nearly instantaneous and hits people who attempt to edgeguard.

Also, Lucina's up-tilt is really good. Nice range and fully hits behind her, it's nearly a 360 degree disjointed hitbox with decent range.

 

[MistressRemilia]

i second bair and uair for being included. i also want to point out fair, its been mentioned a few times but its just been ignored for no reason... that move is amazing, disregarding specials, its arguably gunners best move and definitely deserves to be on this list, id even go as far as saying its contender for the best fair in the game... on the topic of i also think that her utilt should be considered, it combos at low % is incredibly fast(i believe frame 6 or something like that) and kills really early considering its speed. i believe utilt is also a good option which could make this list.
i would also at least want to mention , and uairs, the first 2 being great at trapping airdodges, gunners lasts longer than an air dodge whilst links i believes lasts just as long as an air dodge, links is also great at killing and hugely disjointed, i see no reason it shouldnt be on this list. and mii swords uair has great damage, it kills reasonably early and has a very nice hitbox(not to meantion it combos from dthrow but we are only evaluating moves in a vacuum so meh). it may be main bias, but i definitely think dthrow should be on this list, it combos into all of his aerials(and would therefore combo well for other characters too, his aerials frame data isnt amazing by any means) until high percents, ~120% for most chars(kill percents even for uair and bair, but once again, looking at moves on their own...) it sets up for footstool combos too, so any character that can jablock would love it, the only thing it doesnt do is kill... but then no dthrow, bar shulks i believe, kills. on the topic of lucas, i would actually propose removing his dsmash from the list, because while it does cover the ledge exceptionally well, its not a continuous hitbox, so it depends on timing it well. the fact that if u block the first hit, or get hit by it, the other 2 hits do absolutely nothing except look pretty means that theyre basically just extra endlag. i think instead, dsmash may actualy deserve its place, its great at covering the ledge and sends at a great angle too, without the stupid endlag of lucas' dsmash, but lucas dsmash is great at covering the ledge against certain chars, so u can keep it there if u want, seeing as gnw's dsmash is also there :/
dsmash, while not exactly great at killing, is a good gtfo option, and i think that could be included too.
im also not sold on down b inclusion, i mean mecha koopa definitely isnt bad but its probably the easiest spawnable item to pick up out of all of them(as the opponent), and i think / bombs would deserve a place more than this, since they spawn directly as a throwable item(u dont have to chase them to pick them up) and are overall more useful for follow ups etc imo :/ i also think down b coul be included in the list, its an absolute pain for projectile characters to deal with and its the sole reason why the rosa ness mu is considered 70:30.
i also think down b could be on that list, tree is great by itself, but the true beauty of it is the axe, fast and strong, what more can u ask for
on neutral specials, how is not there?(his down b should also be considered for its absolutely stupid duration) i mean his monados are the only thing even keeping him viable... and just imagine a character like sheik with monados... or zss, or pika, or any character with half decent frame data for that matter, i shudder at the thought...
and then compare that with luigis fireball, dhds can, metal blade, arc thunder, samus charge shot etc. yeah, i fail to see how he hasnt made this list

side b: i think pk fire could go here, its possibly the best wavebounce in the game, is a great spacing tool and is better than a few of the side specials on the list imo. and im surprised theres no mention of cape in there, as that move has great utility.

as for up b, i would personally place up b on that list, its got great distance, and kills stupidly early too, if docs/samus' up b can make this list zeldas definitely should.
this is probably a weird suggestion, but i think up b could also be considered because, outside of recovery purposes where its just straight out bad (like docs and dks too, and they made the list) its a useful tool in other situations, good for edgeguards, can be used to juggle, can be used to cover the ledge before u snap to it to make edgeguarding it harder, and ive seen it even used in "neutral"(long range), though i have no clue how good of an option it is for that :/
i also think could be considered over as both are good oos options, but charizards is stronger and has super armour, samus' does come out faster though, thought id mention it anyway

as for dair, i think the s, (for a sheer spike, better than falcon imo) and deserve a mention...


tldr:
changes i think defintely should happen(in order of conviction from top to bottom):
neutral b:(imo best in the game)
fair:
dthrow:(imo best in the game)
.
.
.
.
.
.
up b:
side b:
down b: // over and
bair:


potential/suggested changesnot ordered)
down b:
dair:
utilt:
uair:
dsmash: and possibly replacing and :/
up b:

side b:

In terms of Dsmash, i can't see Ness' or Zelda's replacing G&W's at least.
G&W's Dsmash is a win/win condition, sourspot is a semi spike of decent power, which goes along Game&Watch's strong edgeguarding potential thanks to his disjoints & long lasting moves. The Sweetspot is something of stupid power, easily able to kill under 100%. The move is also decent in terms of shield safety due to its nice range.
So yeah, it deserves its place in here.

Zard's UpB is a decent out of shield option, but compared to the Top 10 UpBs, it doesn't really compete with them.
Mii Gunner/Ike's Utilt probably lack enough utility to be on par with the top 10 Utilts, they usually are just options for killing, while the Top 10 Utilts are combo tools, some of them being 1st part of a kill confirm.

I'm really not convinced as to why Lucas' Side B should be in here. It's easily powershielded and while it's nice for Lucas to have such a tool in his kit, i really don't think it's on par with the likes of Spindash or Pikmin Throw.
Speaking of Side Bs, we need 's Side B to be in here. It's pretty much a better Dancing Blade, and since Marth & Roy are already here, no reason Cloud shouldn't be in here.

 

[san.]

I don't think Ike's utilt is top 10 worthy. It's a nice anti-air and kill move, but it has lag similar to the quicker up smashes. Usmashes can be jump cancelled an pivoted more easily than a utilt.

Gunner's utilt can combo into itself when used with a short height. I think it can make that 5-10 area easily. It just has a little more lag than some of the best up tilts, though it doubles as both a combo move and kill move.

 

[aεrgiα]

In terms of Dsmash, i can't see Ness' or Zelda's replacing G&W's at least.
G&W's Dsmash is a win/win condition, sourspot is a semi spike of decent power, which goes along Game&Watch's strong edgeguarding potential thanks to his disjoints & long lasting moves. The Sweetspot is something of stupid power, easily able to kill under 100%. The move is also decent in terms of shield safety due to its nice range.
So yeah, it deserves its place in here.

Zard's UpB is a decent out of shield option, but compared to the Top 10 UpBs, it doesn't really compete with them.
Mii Gunner/Ike's Utilt probably lack enough utility to be on par with the top 10 Utilts, they usually are just options for killing, while the Top 10 Utilts are combo tools, some of them being 1st part of a kill confirm.

I'm really not convinced as to why Lucas' Side B should be in here. It's easily powershielded and while it's nice for Lucas to have such a tool in his kit, i really don't think it's on par with the likes of Spindash or Pikmin Throw.
Speaking of Side Bs, we need 's Side B to be in here. It's pretty much a better Dancing Blade, and since Marth & Roy are already here, no reason Cloud shouldn't be in here.

i wouldnt say zards up b cant compete with the top 10, not when u have docs, dks, marios and samus' up b in there... sure, its not on the level of true srk or quick attack, but then most of the other top 10 upbs arent either...
the utilt thing is something thats been mentioned before that maybe it would be better to rank moves by their purpose than by their input, but saying a combo move is better than a killing move is just wrong, sorry, yes their purpose may be different, but that doesnt stop them from being good moves, i could agree that other utilts are better(hence they are in the potential changes and not in the ones i think need to happen) but them not being a combo tool is not good reasoning for it and im not too sure about kill confirms being counted since that would be looking at a moveset, not a move on its own...
powershielding i find is a bad argument vs anything, bc anything can be powershielded... and i never said it should be compared to spindash or pikmin throw, what it can be compared to though is: dancing blade(in the list 2x) arc fire or what ever robins side b is called, villagers lloyd rocket and force palm(i believe thats what lucarios is called) since that is heavily dependant on aura to do what its on this list for.

as for cloud i do agree, but using ur words... i really dont think its on par with spindash or pikmin throw (yeah sorry, that wasnt nice, but i hope u get my point )

 

[Furret24]

In terms of Dsmash, i can't see Ness' or Zelda's replacing G&W's at least.
G&W's Dsmash is a win/win condition, sourspot is a semi spike of decent power, which goes along Game&Watch's strong edgeguarding potential thanks to his disjoints & long lasting moves. The Sweetspot is something of stupid power, easily able to kill under 100%. The move is also decent in terms of shield safety due to its nice range.
So yeah, it deserves its place in here.

I think Game and Watch's isn't really Top 10 material.  All have better dsmashes than Game and Watch, at least in my opinion. His dsmash just has flaws that most of the other dsmashes don't have. The first notable flaw is that it has a noticeable startup, unlike most great dsmashes (9 out of my Top 10 start frame 10 or faster, while G&W's is frame 15), which makes it a little easy to see coming. It also has nonexistent shield pushback, making it easy shieldgrab it if sourspotted. Shielded sweetspot is still punishable by faster characters as well. Actually, the sourspot of this move is pretty terrible, being unable to kill well beyond 150% without lots of rage, which isn't easy for a character like Game and Watch to get. What's worse is that the sourspot takes up a good chunk of the hitbox.

This isn't to say it's not good (sweetspot is difficult to land, and isn't as strong as you say, but it's still top 10 in kill power, and the move does a solid 13-15%), but calling it Top 10 material is quite a stretch.

 

[Zonez]

I think Game and Watch's isn't really Top 10 material.  All have better dsmashes than Game and Watch, at least in my opinion. His dsmash just has flaws that most of the other dsmashes don't have. The first notable flaw is that it has a noticeable startup, unlike most great dsmashes (9 out of my Top 10 start frame 10 or faster, while G&W's is frame 15), which makes it a little easy to see coming. It also has nonexistent shield pushback, making it easy shieldgrab it if sourspotted. Shielded sweetspot is still punishable by faster characters as well. Actually, the sourspot of this move is pretty terrible, being unable to kill well beyond 150% without lots of rage, which isn't easy for a character like Game and Watch to get. What's worse is that the sourspot takes up a good chunk of the hitbox.

This isn't to say it's not good (sweetspot is difficult to land, and isn't as strong as you say, but it's still top 10 in kill power, and the move does a solid 13-15%), but calling it Top 10 material is quite a stretch.

Meta Knight's Dsmash is not that good. It's probably his least useful move. Drill Rush atleast has a use as a recovery mixup, but Dsmash is just meh. It's fast, but that's all it really has. It has 29 frames of endlag, the back hit can only barely kill at a reasonable percent (it also doesn't do much damage), and it's just worse than the other options MK has. If you want to hit quickly infront of you then use Dtilt, which comes out on frame 3.

I've actually gotten punished for reading rolls with it because it only has 1 active frame and it came out too quickly.

 

[Nintendoge_]

Wait why is Villager's f-air up there but not b-air? It's literally better in every way.

 

[David Viran]

Wait why is Villager's f-air up there but not b-air? It's literally better in every way.

Because bairs are a lot more competitive than fairs altogether.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Hm. Lucas Dthrow is definitely one of the best.

It gets guaranteed footstool KO's on almost every character.

*data credited to @ALLCAPSSCRUB

 

[Nintendoge_]

Because bairs are a lot more competitive than fairs altogether.

I'd still argue it's one of the best. Looking at the frame data, it has similar killing potential, autocancelling frames, and startup compared to others on the list. In addition, its late hitbox (which has tons of range) is an extremely powerful gimping, zoning, and damage-racking tool.

 

[Routa]

Don't see why Mario or Luigi are listed for best back throws.

Well the fact that the enemy is turned into a hit box is worth of something, eh? And Luma is a thing.

Anyways... Like many have said before me Gunner kinda has one of the best Fairs in the game. It is like Villagers, but I would say a slightly better due to how it pushes you backwards and has a bigger hitbox.

Anyways I find lack of 's Chakram in the Side-B section disturbing.
Does anyone have any idea how good this move is? Think about Sheik's Needles. Now image if you could angle it when used on ground and air. Now image if it was multihit. Pretty awsome, eh? That is pretty much Swordfighter's Chakram. Don't trust me? Well make a Swordfighter and try it out or ask from any Swordfighter main.

 

[aεrgiα]

Well the fact that the enemy is turned into a hit box is worth of something, eh? And Luma is a thing.

Anyways... Like many have said before me Gunner kinda has one of the best Fairs in the game. It is like Villagers, but I would say a slightly better due to how it pushes you backwards and has a bigger hitbox.

Anyways I find lack of 's Chakram in the Side-B section disturbing.
Does anyone have any idea how good this move is? Think about Sheik's Needles. Now image if you could angle it when used on ground and air. Now image if it was multihit. Pretty awsome, eh? That is pretty much Swordfighter's Chakram. Don't trust me? Well make a Swordfighter and try it out or ask from any Swordfighter main.

i think the lack of chakram is more likely due to the fact that a lot of people limit miis to 1111( why TT_TT ). though i do agree that it should get a place on this list
also for pivot grabs i think deserves a place :/

 

[Masonomace]

Shulk's Neutral special called Monado arts has the choice to cycle through or deactivate them while during hitstun & you get five arts to select from. The art's activation when Shulk performs a pose grants him intangibility that lasts from frame 1 - 14 & can be pivoted by a turnaround, B-Reverse, or Wavebounced like most NeutralBs. The only drawback is that you don't get intangibility when you're tumble falling in the air or you flinch too much getting dealt hitstun. However, the moment your said art activates, you instantly gain the art's buffs & debuffs which can save your life or adapt to the very next moment you'd NEED them for.

This is a really freakin' good NeutralB & I am surprised it's not under the best of NeutralB moves. Anytime I hear anything about Shulk stuff, it's always about Monado arts & I hear about funny yet scary things to think about when people ask, "What if Ganondorf had Monado Buster?" "What if Robin had Monado Speed?" "What if King Dedede had Monado Shield?", things like that.

Kirby with Monado arts is amazingly fun & quite powerful if you have a lot of knowledge about the Monado arts. Kirby players also come to an agreement that Monado arts are one of the best copy abilities & that's radical. I propose a vote going to Monado arts for one of the best NeutralBs.

EDIT: Monado arts also have applications & tech to them. For example, you can cancel landing lag from an aerial or airdodge with the art's activation per-say you wanted to land with a laggy Shulk aerial. So now, think of the following:
"What if King Dedede or Captain Falcon could art landing cancel their Fair?"
"What if Bowser could art cancel his Bair?"
"What if anyone could art landing cancel their Dair?"
"What if Olimar or Bowser could art landing cancel their Uair?"
"What if Pit, Dark Pit, or Pikachu could art landing cancel their Nair?"

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Kirby with Monado Jump is a special type of cancer.

 

[ARGHETH]

This is a really freakin' good NeutralB & I am surprised it's not under the best of NeutralB moves.

You realize Needles exist, right? That alone knocks it off the top.

 

[Vyrnx]

And Pac fruits. Shulk's neutral b is a good move, but people need to look at the implications of calling something "the best" of any input... Needles that are utterly oppressive in the neutral, Pac fruits that are like 3/4 of the reason Pacs were ever able to get top 8 placements in nationals.

And I would also second Link/Tink's bombs replacing DK's down b. They have so much versatility.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Well the fact that the enemy is turned into a hit box is worth of something, eh? And Luma is a thing.

It's not. It's really really not.

So they're useful in one matchup. But Top 10 throws? Not even close.

 

[Routa]

It's not. It's really really not.

So they're useful in one matchup. But Top 10 throws? Not even close.

You do realise that people play doubles right? Also having a way to get rid of the Luma quickly is very important. Rosa&Luma is of the hardest MU for most of the cast.

Anyways I would like to know which B-throw should replace Mario's in your opinion.

 

[aεrgiα]

And Pac fruits. Shulk's neutral b is a good move, but people need to look at the implications of calling something "the best" of any input... Needles that are utterly oppressive in the neutral, Pac fruits that are like 3/4 of the reason Pacs were ever able to get top 8 placements in nationals.

And I would also second Link/Tink's bombs replacing DK's down b. They have so much versatility.

i did look at needles and pac fruit, but i personally think, regardless of how good neddles are (and they are good, reall fricking good) i think sheik would still prefer monados, i mean, she can suddenly remedy her issue of not being able to kill, she can deal increased damage, and unlike shulk shes safe whilst doing it, she can become a super heavy when she needs to or she could reach crazy speeds to shoot across the stage and be even more oppressive than she ever was before.and pacfruits are a difficult case... i mean they are basically pacmans gameplan, but i dont know whether he would or wouldnt profit more from monado arts as he does also have pretty decent normals afaik, but he would lose his gimmick. also monados are 100% of the reason any shulk has ever had any success, and image shulk with needles or pacfruit... hed be worse than he is now(ofc his whole moveset was designed around them, just like pac so its not the best comparison) and he would prefer monados over the other two, and that happens with a lot of low tiers and mid tiers, maybe even high tiers, most would love monados more than needles, imagine mario or luigi with buster to get u from 0-80 in one grab, and then turn on smash mode for some serious usmash spam(or any other reasonable move actually, with their frame data...) or rosa with shield mode or speed mode, a floaty and slow (compared to other top tiers) character suddenly becomes heavy or fast and could probably kill u with uair at 0% without rage if smash was activated... doc has recovery problems? no problem, pop on jump (or speed) and back to the stage u go. ganondorf is slow? activate speed or jump and give ur opponent their worst nightmare. try giving dk the buff he needs, turn on smash and the ding dong now finally kills at reasonable percents i just think that most characters would benefit more from monados than they would from needles or pacfruit.

well regardless of my opinion, it doesnt have to be number 1 on this list if most people think that needles and pacfruit are better than monados but it should defininitely be in the top 10 best neutral specials...

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

You do realise that people play doubles right? Also having a way to get rid of the Luma quickly is very important. Rosa&Luma is of the hardest MU for most of the cast.

Anyways I would like to know which B-throw should replace Mario's in your opinion.

Doesn't make it a Top 10 throw. It's about overall usage. Can I do things with this throw in a lot of situations? Having an easy way to separate Rosalina and Luma is huge but that just means that:
A. it's a great move in that matchup.
B. The character that has this move should probably be considered as a pick against Rosalina.

Similarly, being good in doubles isn't enough to say that it's a great throw overall.

Zelda's back throw is a good candidate. Pretty strong, good damage. Pac-Man's throw is pretty decent as well for the same reasons.

If you think otherwise, that's ok. But Doc's back throw should be added as well.

 

[aεrgiα]

Doesn't make it a Top 10 throw. It's about overall usage. Can I do things with this throw in a lot of situations? Having an easy way to separate Rosalina and Luma is huge but that just means that:
A. it's a great move in that matchup.
B. The character that has this move should probably be considered as a pick against Rosalina.

Similarly, being good in doubles isn't enough to say that it's a great throw overall.

Zelda's back throw is a good candidate. Pretty strong, good damage. Pac-Man's throw is pretty decent as well for the same reasons.

If you think otherwise, that's ok. But Doc's back throw should be added as well.

looking at the whole back throw list it looks a bit "all over the place" anyway, i dont know why lucas is 2nd on it, and why tink is 6th or why bowsers last.... as for that last part... u do realise both pac and zeldas bthrow do exactly the same amount of damage as marios, and that marios is about as strong a zeldas(i think its slightly stronger?) and stronger than pacs.. in which case the hitbox aspect to it would indeed give it an edge over the other two also if youre purely going by damage d3 has the best bthrow afaik at 13%(sends at a terrible angle though)

Edit: i think the order of bthrows in terms of kill % is 1)ness 2)toon link 3)villager 4)mewtwo 5)lucas 6)bowser 7)mario(all 3) 8)robin 9)zelda 10)dk not 100% sure though

 

[atreyujames]

's Monado Arts definitely need to go on the list. Probably instead of or

's Side B doesn't deserve to be on the list. Just when compared to Ness's it has more endlag, uses the tome mechanic, is easier to smash DI out of, and the strong hit is at the end instead of at the beginning, meaning that if they escape it before the end then there was very little benefit. It comes out slightly faster and doesn't rely on hitting the opponent to activate on the good side though. Not saying it is that much worse, or that Ness's should be on here either, but I am saying that it isn't as good as , ,, or .

and Up B's aren't THAT good. Sure they come out fast, but their distance is meh and pitiful respectively. Damage is OK and I'll admit that Doc's is a great kill move OoS. But 's is an amazing OoS tool (one of the best imo) and actually goes up quite high if you mash well. 's is a partially intangible kill move that can be combo'd into and goes quit far in ANY direction. Imo both are better

I'll agree that / have better Down B's than .

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Kirby's Uthrow for sure has to make that list now, its among the strongest.
Also his Dtilt is amazing just as much as Utilt.

Zelda's Dair is an honorable mention too, one of the best and strongest meteors that can AC from a SH and always spikes and lasts some time.
Her Utilt comes close too right? It's a decent anti air disjoint that's very fast and good combo tool.
Her Dtilt is also notable as well. Again, great combo starter with good range and she lays down low too, it can lead to.

In a way, I don't see how Pikas Fsmash is top 10.
Also how isnt Tinks DownB top 10?

 

[-Xeroskia.]

Isn't Jigglypuff's pummel like top 3..? Cloud's is pretty good as well, but I won't talk about him for this right now.

I agree with Monado Arts over Luigi's fireball in regards to how much respect and intuition should be given to it. ZSS's neutral B is also a choice there.

Don't really agree with Lucina in forward smash and Lucas in down smash, but it might just be me. It seems like they just take over from the opinions of Marth's forward smash in general and Lucas's down smash from Brawl but stronger (which isn't the case, sadly).

In a way, I don't see how Pikas Fsmash is top 10.

It has a very effective combination of range, power, speed, and safety on shield. I understand its placing and, honestly, would scoot it past Ryu, Luigi, and GnW's F-smashes. It's probably only lower because it's more subtle and overshadowed by Pika's other nonsense, for the most part.

Also I'd put Ness' or Mewtwo's side B's over Marth's. Roy's I'm a bit more hesitant on since he uses it quite often, but Ness' is definitely more respect-demanding, and Mewtwo's is as well, though to a slightly lesser extent.

..Too tired to scour the list further. Happy New Year's, people.

 

[Wintermelon43]

IMO

and 's neutral B's should be added, over and 's

's up throw ahould be added, if up throw is at max, add it over or 's

Add 's jab, over 's

Remove 's sise tilt, that move is awful