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Best Brawl+ AI?

Kei_Takaro

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The reason I think Luigi was godly was because he was programed to execute moves in the nearest possible time, since we have +'d him, I say that the programming does what it does, and I assume that it naturally had a good ability of shielding since vBrawl
 

Leo Kitsune

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 3, 2009
Messages
109
CPU's dont learn. The replay format has been figured out, and it contains NO information about CPU AI, other than a random seed.
The replays are just instructions for AI to essentially act out a match, right? If so, that doesn't prove whether CPUs learn or not.
 

Dantarion

Smash Champion
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The replays don't contain instructions for the AI.
The AI routines are run as if its a live match.

THAT is why the AI can't be learning, as replays would have to contain the data required for the CPU to display their "learned" abilities.
 

Shadic

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The replays don't contain instructions for the AI.
The AI routines are run as if its a live match.

THAT is why the AI can't be learning, as replays would have to contain the data required for the CPU to display their "learned" abilities.
Which is what I said in my post, and everybody said I was wrong. :ohwell:
 

JamesRaynor

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
82
If you guys want to put it to the test, why not try two things.


First save a replay and then change the codes and see if the AI acts differently or acts the same.


Second if they do learn, then if you repeat a certain move over and over you should start to see them repeating the same tactic. (Like Tlink's D-Aerial)
 

Shadic

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Or, we can prove it by how input is stored in replays, like how we've already done.
 

zephyrnereus

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in reality, sakurai takes control of the CPUs and makes fun of you by crouch taunting when you die and spams falcon punches for the lulz. He is also confused why there is no tripping, thus explaining the dash dancing.
Sakurai doesnt use luigi though... Weegee is the one responsible of controling this CPU, which is why he's hard as hell.
 

Dracs

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So if you start twice a match with the same caracters and the same level, and you dont touch your manette (in order to have the same conditions for the AI in the two matchs), you will see the same match the two times ?
 

Kei_Takaro

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So if you start twice a match with the same caracters and the same level, and you dont touch your manette (in order to have the same conditions for the AI in the two matchs), you will see the same match the two times ?
I think it works differently, just like Pacman, it runs on algorithmic patterns, it's not easy to say that it just scripts itself like that
 

Dracs

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I think it works differently, just like Pacman, it runs on algorithmic patterns, it's not easy to say that it just scripts itself like that
But if a replay is simply a "rematch" inputing registered commands, then that would be the case, otherwise, a replay wouldn't be the "same" each time.
Unless there something else than the player commands registered, some aleotory variable set at the beginning of the match...
 

Kei_Takaro

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I remember a video on Youtube explaning some AI behavior, that it proceeds with a trial and error and will try different methods in order to accomplish something
 

Metal B

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The replays don't contain instructions for the AI.
The AI routines are run as if its a live match.

THAT is why the AI can't be learning, as replays would have to contain the data required for the CPU to display their "learned" abilities.
I dont know how replays exactly work, but i thought they just save the input information of a match. So it saves the input of the player and the simulated input of the cpu, which was driven by the KI. In a replay they dont need to use the KI, because it does not need it, it just follow the input information of the replay file. So in the end its makes no different on which console it will be played and what KI Information is saved.

So this would be a point for KI copycats.
 

Leo Kitsune

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 3, 2009
Messages
109
The replays don't contain instructions for the AI.
The AI routines are run as if its a live match.

THAT is why the AI can't be learning, as replays would have to contain the data required for the CPU to display their "learned" abilities.
If that's true, that's a really lazy way to do it :/

No wonder we don't have replay editing features.
 

Dantarion

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But if a replay is simply a "rematch" inputing registered commands, then that would be the case, otherwise, a replay wouldn't be the "same" each time.
Unless there something else than the player commands registered, some aleotory variable set at the beginning of the match...
The game uses a random number generator for various tasks, like luigi's side B, peaches fsmash, g&w hammer, and the AI, etc. The game seeds the random number generator with a random value, and saves this value in the replay. That way, when the replay is played back, the random number generator spits out the same string of numbers, and all random events take place they way they would in an actual match.

This is also how Fire Emblem keeps you from resetting until you get a critical hit or the enemy misses, etc.
If that's true, that's a really lazy way to do it :/

No wonder we don't have replay editing features.
Its the best way to do it, it requires absolutely no space or effort, replay editing would be so harddddd to implement in Brawl.
 

humble

Smash Ace
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Oct 25, 2009
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Logically then they shouldn't learn, but I still get pissed everytime the Pit CPU wingdashes or arrow loops- you can't learn ****it!

Shadic or Dantarion, please explain to me why the AI is using crouch taunting, or wing dashing.
 

Dantarion

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I believe that the AI crouch taunts when you are dead because it doesn't have any reason to move (There are no targets to attack, no items to pick up, etc), so, the AI chooses one of very few actions that doesn't base around any target. It crouches, then stands up again.

I have never seen the AI consistently loop arrows, nor have I seen the AI consistently wing dash.
 

zephyrnereus

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then how do you explain this video?

cause my falcon NEVER does 5 falcon punches in a row... would it just be a coincidence that this person's falcon CPU was programmed differently? is it just a coincidence that my CPU ROB in my disk uses side B way more frequently than in my friend's? does that mean that each brawl disk was programmed differently? it just doesn't make sense...
 

STUFF2o

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I believe that the AI crouch taunts when you are dead because it doesn't have any reason to move (There are no targets to attack, no items to pick up, etc), so, the AI chooses one of very few actions that doesn't base around any target. It crouches, then stands up again.

I have never seen the AI consistently loop arrows, nor have I seen the AI consistently wing dash.
My CPU's crouch taunt when I'm alive. And I'm not talking about "crouch, stand up, crouch, stand up," I'm talking about the exaggerated machine gun crouching that only a human would do. I've also had experiences like this:

1. I go against CPU Game and Watch and have a normal Brawl.
2. Friend comes over and uses Game and Watch.
3. The next day, I Brawl CPU Game and Watch again and he uses techniques that I've only seen my friend use (down throw to down smash).
 

Jobes

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Sep 24, 2009
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I don't have input on the CPU learning discussion, but I think the hardest is Zelda.

Also, Peach CPU's are the biggest a**holes ever. I have fought them twice and all they do is run away and float around on their stupid umbrellas. They don't even freaking fight me they just make me want to pull my hair out. Now every time I see a CPU Peach i just quit. This happen to anyone else?
 

Dantarion

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If you want to confirm the CPU learning thing, provide better evidence than "this one time my cpu did X and I always do X"

Clonehat, just because a technique is only in Brawl+ doesn't mean the CPU can't do it.
 

STUFF2o

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If you want to confirm the CPU learning thing, provide better evidence than "this one time my cpu did X and I always do X"

Clonehat, just because a technique is only in Brawl+ doesn't mean the CPU can't do it.
The point is that if somebody repeatedly does the same technique, the next day, the CPU performs that technique several times, and continues to use it on more occasions. However, the CPU had never been seen doing this prior to the human performing that same action.
 

Dantarion

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Not really.
The replay data doesn't contain any data related to CPU learning, and the CPU's playback the same on different Wii's without any other data being exchanged.

EDIT:
Someone make me a vid of a CPU Luigi spamming the spike taunt
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
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CPUs knowing how to fight in brawl+ isn't really an arguenent. CPUs seem to be able to detect when they need to input a button command and will do so accordingly.

Shadic's Geno for example. The Geno Whirl attack(Side B) becomes a kill move when the A button is pushed right as the opponent is hit. Level 9 cpus pull this move off successfully almost all the time.
 

STUFF2o

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Not really.
The replay data doesn't contain any data related to CPU learning, and the CPU's playback the same on different Wii's without any other data being exchanged.

EDIT:
Someone make me a vid of a CPU Luigi spamming the spike taunt
That would require somebody to actually spam his down taunt in many different Brawls, but it seems perfectly possible.
 

MK26

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Dant, it's entirely possible that some seed numbers went unused and were 'filled' with data that Ninty received from online replays and such
Or that some seed numbers say inactive until the game recoginzes a string of iputs present in that data, at whcih time it activates it for use by the wii

or is tha just not possible/feasable?
 

Dantarion

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MK26, wtf do you mean by "unused seed numbers"? Also, wiis not connected to wifi can still play back replays.

If you want to prove that CPU's can learn, please explain why replays don't include any input data for the CPU's, and don't contain any learning information.
 

Sph34r

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Single instances of CPU's performing logical move strings (G&W dthrow > dsmash or Rob's down b spam) doesn't show learning; besides giving AI algorithms to fight you it would make sense for the developers to playtest each character a bit and inject them with specific "strings" that they randomly throw out at you.

My Snake has yet to shield-drop a grenade. My Falco has yet to SHDL. My Fox has yet to dair > utilt. I could go on...

A good counter-example is Lucas spamming his nair > anything. I'm assuming if I ever played Lucas that's something I would do, but I wouldn't notice Lucas doing it until I myself realized it was something effective.
 

Shadic

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Shadic's Geno for example. The Geno Whirl attack(Side B) becomes a kill move when the A button is pushed right as the opponent is hit. Level 9 cpus pull this move off successfully almost all the time.
Really? I've not seen that.

Back on my old DownB though, Geno would frequently self-destruct because instead of pulling out bombs, he'd plummet to his death.
 

JayFizzy

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Aug 9, 2009
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cpus NEVER would short hop then laser as falco, until after i started playing as falco thats all they do now when they fire lasers.
 

Dantarion

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@Shadic Geno example.
Are you sure the CPU isn't just spamming the **** out of the A button?
I see no reason to believe that the CPU actually acts according to how the moveset is set up.

As Shadic posted, the CPU will still try to use moves as they originally were.

If you remove the lazer from falcos neutral B....they still use it when far away.
 

D.B.K.

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The only thing I can think of is my cpu's teching a lot more after I started doing it more often.
 

Sph34r

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My Falco uses the lasers in such a fashion: grounded, 3 at a time, even I'm crouching (as a characater like squirtle) before he even took out his gun.

I main Falco lol. All my Falco AI ever does is reflector spam at the edge, jab combo/uthrow/ftilt at close range, and waiting to use firebird to recover vertically even though he was originally at a point ABOVE the stage where he could have used phantasm to grab the ledge as he was coming down.

If you desperately wanted to prove your point of AI learning, you'd delete all of your SSBB data, start a match vs another Falco AI as Falco, and ONLY SHDL > IAP for a 10 minute timed match. See if he does it the next round.
 

JamesRaynor

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Really? I've not seen that.

Back on my old DownB though, Geno would frequently self-destruct because instead of pulling out bombs, he'd plummet to his death.
Probably because their programmed to use an aerial attack when they get near someone in the air, even if they are in the middle of another animation they will try. (If you make it so there's little to no cooldown on a character's moveset you'll see the character use it like 2-4 times even though normally it would only be a single move).
 

sffadsad

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Nov 6, 2007
Messages
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Not really.
The replay data doesn't contain any data related to CPU learning, and the CPU's playback the same on different Wii's without any other data being exchanged.

EDIT:
Someone make me a vid of a CPU Luigi spamming the spike taunt
Can you explain to me why replay data is a relevant counterpoint to the fact that CPUs adapt to specific playstyles? I would think it pretty obvious that replays wouldn't contain any learning information as they should simply be replaying what is was the CPUs did before instead of playing an AI in real time.

While I don't believe that there is an AI that learns permanently, I believe that CPUs can mimic certain things they "see" from the player in the short term. For example, as long as something like crouch taunting stays a part of the player's style, the CPU will mimic it. If they player begins to stop using crouch taunting then the CPU in turn will begin to stop using it.
 

JamesRaynor

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Can you explain to me why replay data is a relevant counterpoint to the fact that CPUs adapt to specific playstyles? I would think it pretty obvious that replays wouldn't contain any learning information as they should simply be replaying what is was the CPUs did before instead of playing an AI in real time.

While I don't believe that there is an AI that learns permanently, I believe that CPUs can mimic certain things they "see" from the player in the short term. For example, as long as something like crouch taunting stays a part of the player's style, the CPU will mimic it. If they player begins to stop using crouch taunting then the CPU in turn will begin to stop using it.
You don't understand. The AI is running the normal script, there's no recorded moves, etc. that the CPU does, it simply runs the script as if it was a live game; Only your character and item spawns, etc. stay the same so it looks exactly the same.
 
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