Best (And Worst) Designed Characters.

[Alex Night]

The Zelda salt in this thread is kind of crazy.

From the way you people talk about her it seems like all you do is sit around and play super campy Zelda's all day. Not all Zelda's play like that.

And I for one, think it's nice to have some variety in the smash cast. I don't want every character to be a rushdown character. That's just bland. I'm glad we have characters that focus more on stage control, such as Ivy, Snake, and Zelda (And Mewtwo to an extent).

Also I sorta find it funny that people are complaining about Nayru's and not complaining about Fox's usmash (??????)

Of course people don't question Fox. He is the leader of Star Fox, the greatest commando team in the galaxy. Plus, alot of Melee vets try to stress so much on the whole rushdown part because alot of them are used to using characters that either move with great speed like Cpt. Falcon or have great attack reach like Marth. I'm working on Snake, but mastering him is very tricky like you have to be 3 steps ahead of your opponent.

On a side note rant, why is Dedede no longer bearing the King title? He is the self-proclaimed king of Dreamland after all.

 

[Bleck]

Also I sorta find it funny that people are complaining about Nayru's and not complaining about Fox's usmash (??????)

Legend has it that it is, in fact, possible to complain about more than one thing at a time.

 

[The_NZA]

The Zelda salt in this thread is kind of crazy.

From the way you people talk about her it seems like all you do is sit around and play super campy Zelda's all day. Not all Zelda's play like that.

And I for one, think it's nice to have some variety in the smash cast. I don't want every character to be a rushdown character. That's just bland. I'm glad we have characters that focus more on stage control, such as Ivy, Snake, and Zelda (And Mewtwo to an extent).

Also I sorta find it funny that people are complaining about Nayru's and not complaining about Fox's usmash (??????)

I've *****ed about Fox's usmash quite a bit, don't you worry. Just because someone points to something they perceive as "bad for the game" doesn't automatically make everything they don't mention an endorsement.

 

[Taojaz]

Jigglypuff by far. She has a metagame centered around like literally two moves, one of which is like a confirmed kill at ridiculously low percents. Her design is horrific.

 

[Alex Night]

Jigglypuff by far. She has a metagame centered around like literally two moves, one of which is like a confirmed kill at ridiculously low percents. Her design is horrific.

Not really. Relying on just Bair and Rest won't work for Jiggs at high level play. Also that one move that is a confirmed kill at low percents needs to be set up correctly or she will be punished for it big time. Seriously, the hitbox for Rest is as small as the Hard hitbox for Zelda's Fair and Bair if not smaller. That move is a high risk, high reward situation and the fear of smart Jigglypuff players setting up for it is what made her deceptively dangerous once her Melee metagame was fully realized.

 

[Terotrous]

I'll give my scrubby opinion

Best:

Ivy - I loved Ivy in Brawl, but she had issues. She's far more complete as a character now, and Solarbeam has to be the most satisfying move in the game. Even moreso than the Knee.

Mewtwo - I can't explain why, but this character just really clicks with me for some reason, which is interesting because I hated him in Melee. I think there's just been a lot of smart subtle little changes that filled holes in his gameplan or something.

Lucario - I don't know whether or not Lucario's combo shenanigans are actually effective in high level play, but he's super fun to use. And come on, how can you not love the Shoryuken?

Geez when did I become a Pokemon fanboy? I guess the fact that this game has approximately one million pokemon characters makes it likely that some of them will have good designs.


Worst:

Olimar - Olimar was always kind of dull to play, he's very flowchart / spammy. PM doesn't seem to add any more depth to his game, he's just worse now, so I feel like you have to lame it out even more with him to win now.

Game & Watch - He just feels really slow and janky now. I'm not sure if it's just because everyone else is faster and he's not, but he feels glacial compared to the rest of the cast. I also don't like the loss of his brawl nair and dair, even if the new ones may have more combo potential, I feel like it significantly hurts his neutral game. Couldn't you just use Fair as a combo ender anyway?

Falco - I really dislike the loss of the things that made Falco unique (except for Down B, that one is fine). I don't think reverting his Brawl FSmash and Fair make him better, it just makes him play more like a slower Fox. I'd like to see them differentiated a bit more, like Wolf, who feels very different and is generally a lot more fun. Or just drop Falco for Krystal. A guy can dream, right?

 

[Generically Epic]

Worst? Olimar
Best: it'sa me <-

 

[Alex Night]

I'll give my scrubby opinion

Best:

Ivy - I loved Ivy in Brawl, but she had issues. She's far more complete as a character now, and Solarbeam has to be the most satisfying move in the game. Even moreso than the Knee.

Mewtwo - I can't explain why, but this character just really clicks with me for some reason, which is interesting because I hated him in Melee. I think there's just been a lot of smart subtle little changes that filled holes in his gameplan or something.

Lucario - I don't know whether or not Lucario's combo shenanigans are actually effective in high level play, but he's super fun to use. And come on, how can you not love the Shoryuken?

Geez when did I become a Pokemon fanboy? I guess the fact that this game has approximately one million pokemon characters makes it likely that some of them will have good designs.


Worst:

Olimar - Olimar was always kind of dull to play, he's very flowchart / spammy. PM doesn't seem to add any more depth to his game, he's just worse now, so I feel like you have to lame it out even more with him to win now.

Game & Watch - He just feels really slow and janky now. I'm not sure if it's just because everyone else is faster and he's not, but he feels glacial compared to the rest of the cast. I also don't like the loss of his brawl nair and dair, even if the new ones may have more combo potential, I feel like it significantly hurts his neutral game. Couldn't you just use Fair as a combo ender anyway?

Falco - I really dislike the loss of the things that made Falco unique (except for Down B, that one is fine). I don't think reverting his Brawl FSmash and Fair make him better, it just makes him play more like a slower Fox. I'd like to see them differentiated a bit more, like Wolf, who feels very different and is generally a lot more fun. Or just drop Falco for Krystal. A guy can dream, right?

I never did like Ivy's design back in 2.6 who could unleash a wall of pain at the start of the match and launch Seed Bombs up quickly before you could follow it very often. I'm glad that she got the changes that she did in 3.0. Mewtwo's tail is freakishly long and that disturbs me. I think the reason why Falco is mostly the same as he was in Melee is because there are a lot of Melee Falco players and that was the PMBR trying to appease Melee fans while keeping some Brawl stuff for him like his Gatling combo and his neutral A attacks. Can you imagine the salt if they changed anything else about Falco? I personally don't like the idea of this Falco too, but that's going to be the way it is.

 

[TheGhostlyPidove]

I think Kirby is a very well designed character. He could be played all-aerial, or utilize mostly ground attacks. Either way, he still has great options for recovery via the horizontal final cutter, and good ledgeguarding options (Mostly DAir, though. XD). Also, if you just feel like messing around, Dthrow chain grabs are a thing.

 

[Vi¢e]

I personally love DDD's design. Can anyone elaborate why the majority considers him poorly designed?

 

[JOE!]

Not poorly designed, its more that he currently isn't as well off as some other folks.

However, what is the point of his Jet Hammer? I always see it as like another Fair...

 

[9bit]

The Jet Hammer is pretty cool. Comes out incredibly fast, you can use it as a faster, better knockback Fair, or as a tech chase, or as a DI mixup after a grab near the ledge (f-throw / d-throw), or as just a straight up edgeguard on certain characters.

 

[The_NZA]

Or like an aerial smash attack with light superarmor

 

[Yurya]

Not poorly designed, its more that he currently isn't as well off as some other folks.

However, what is the point of his Jet Hammer? I always see it as like another Fair...

Space with fair but when you are going for the finish and have a guaranteed hit... Jet Hammer!

 

[Saito]

I think the reason why Falco is mostly the same as he was in Melee is because there are a lot of Melee Falco players and that was the PMBR trying to appease Melee fans while keeping some Brawl stuff for him like his Gatling combo and his neutral A attacks. Can you imagine the salt if they changed anything else about Falco? I personally don't like the idea of this Falco too, but that's going to be the way it is.

Did you forget that PM was started because they wanted to put Melee falco in Brawl?

He is like the starting point of PM. They just changed the things that doesn't change his core style from melee.

I mean if you give him his brawl reflector he'd probably lose 60% of his playerbase in an instant, be followed by a wave of salt, and probably suffer in 10+ matchups that he was positive or neutral before.

 

[JOE!]

I like how his shine is what makes him amazing, and taking it away would cause him to plummet.

 

[Kankato]

Does anyone remember why the PMBR gave Falco his old flutterhush (melee fair) instead of replacing it with brawl fair?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

... Because they did give him his Brawl fair, and everyone b*****ed about it.

Look, not everyone's going to be happy no matter what the f*** happens to Falco.

Drop it.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I mean if you give him his brawl reflector he'd probably lose 60% of his playerbase in an instant

*95%

 

[Kankato]

... Because they did give him his Brawl fair, and everyone b*****ed about it.

Look, not everyone's going to be happy no matter what the f*** happens to Falco.

Drop it.

Sorry if I plucked a nerve there :\ I didn't know such a thing happened...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I mean, I actually don't care about Falco's animations one way or the other.

I care that P:M still needs to cater to the Melee crowd because it needs the community support to continue to flourish and be recognized as a game in its own right. Which it is. It's annoying that in spite of it getting this much recognition, it still balks at things like revamping Falco's moveset to make it more balanced, or Luigified.

It's not going to happen, and there's good reasons for it. We don't have to like it, but we do have to face facts and do our best to ignore it for now.

 

[Kankato]

I mean, I actually don't care about Falco's animations one way or the other.

I care that P:M still needs to cater to the Melee crowd because it needs the community support to continue to flourish and be recognized as a game in its own right. Which it is. It's annoying that in spite of it getting this much recognition, it still balks at things like revamping Falco's moveset to make it more balanced, or Luigified.

It's not going to happen, and there's good reasons for it. We don't have to like it, but we do have to face facts and do our best to ignore it for now.

Alright then, thanks for the information~ I was curious is all.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No problem.

 

[Saito]

I mean, I actually don't care about Falco's animations one way or the other.

I care that P:M still needs to cater to the Melee crowd because it needs the community support to continue to flourish and be recognized as a game in its own right. Which it is. It's annoying that in spite of it getting this much recognition, it still balks at things like revamping Falco's moveset to make it more balanced, or Luigified.

It's not going to happen, and there's good reasons for it. We don't have to like it, but we do have to face facts and do our best to ignore it for now.

Do you really think that them modifying Falco's moveset would even help him in the slightest?

Legitimate question.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No, not at all. The attitude that moves that have similar aesthetic animations but different properties need different animations is a little asinine to begin with.

I only have an issue with clones when they're watered-down or better versions of the original, as is the case with Roy/Marth, Pichu/Pikachu, Doc/Mario and in that sort of situation where there is a large amount of redundancy/overlap and/or one form of the move is clearly the superior option. In cases such as those, "decloning" is just another word for "redesigning" to solve the balance/redundancy issues. It's why we have the Doc/Mario hybrid and various move changes on Roy. Roy in particular: His Nair is visually different from Marth, but that serves to enhance its range, his DSmash is different, but that makes it a delayed double-hitter in front that punishes spotdodges, etc. etc. I don't want them to change Roy Fair, Uair, Dash Attack, Jab combos, DTilt, grab/pummel animation, FSmash, and any others I've missed just because he and Marth have the same swipes. The moves all work and if we're not looking to inherently change the way the move works, a pure fluff animation change is just ... why?

 

[Roy of Pharae]

I'd say pit is not designed well. he is way easier to gimp and in sacrificing power for better arrow control doesn't fit in my opinion. Pit just seems weak in this game compared to brawl. which is why I wish they hadn't changed his moveset so much. he is really good at combos in brawl, but here, it's just arrows, sweetsspots, tech chases and chaingrabs with a few wave dashes and wind techs.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'd say pit is not designed well. he is way easier to gimp and in sacrificing power for better arrow control doesn't fit in my opinion. Pit just seems weak in this game compared to brawl. which is why I wish they hadn't changed his moveset so much. he is really good at combos in brawl, but here, it's just arrows, sweetsspots, tech chases and chaingrabs with a few wave dashes and wind techs.

You ... have seen Armada play, yes?

 

[Roy of Pharae]

yeah, I've seen him play. he's god like with Pit. maybe it's just my preference with Pit's moveset in brawl. I just liked the way he played.

 

[CyberZixx]

My least favorite design is Lucario. I'd like playing smash, I dislike there is a character designed so against fundamental aspects of the game. I would love if his cancel system was not in place. Aura charge is enough of a a gimmick alone, thank you.

 

[Saito]

My least favorite design is Lucario. I'd like playing smash, I dislike there is a character designed so against fundamental aspects of the game. I would love if his cancel system was not in place. Aura charge is enough of a a gimmick alone, thank you.

How do you feel about little mac?

 

[CyberZixx]

How do you feel about little mac?

Not enough has been shown to pass judgement yet. That system is curious and whenever you introduce such a radical element such as that into an establish framework you gotta be very careful or it can bad. Ie how I feel about Lucario in PM.

 

[andalsoandy]

Jigglypuff by far. She has a metagame centered around like literally two moves, one of which is like a confirmed kill at ridiculously low percents. Her design is horrific.

That's the great thing about Jigglypuff.

Experienced players expect B-air and Rest, but you can use other moves to throw them off.

Inexperienced players don't know what to expect, so you barrage them with B-air and Rest.

Jigglypuff is fun.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Anyone who think Jigglypuff's metagame centers around two moves does not understand Jigglypuff in the slightest. I don't play her, but my doubles partner does.

Have fun getting FSmashed.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

Can't really say that any character is poorly designed, but Snake is one of the best designed characters. He's very unique, and has been modified heavily for PM and made him work.

 

[Deleted member]

Lordling, just because you can occasionally hit somebody with Jigglypuff's F-smash does not mean it is a significant move in her arsenal. It is slow and laggy and can only be used on the ground (she's an aerial character.)

Sorry, but Jigglypuff has an awful design.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Lordling, just because you can occasionally hit somebody with Jigglypuffs's F-smash does not mean it is a significant move in her arsenal. It is slow and laggy and can only be used on the ground (she's an aerial character.)

Sorry, but Jigglypuff has an awful design.

... Actually, I retract my previous statement. Jigglypuff is an awfully designed character, with an over-centralized moveset. She has options but most of them are inferior to anybody else's options, and she has to play a spacing game twice as strict as Marth's with a much smaller reward.

My buddy's good, but he and I agree that Jigglypuff is very limited. Not sure why I defended her just there.