Beating the Infinite. Feel free to add.

[dReAMCloUd - Assault K 40]

Aight...so it doesn't take as much purported "skill" and you may beat people who are seemingly better than you with this infinite. But only seemingly better, wanna know why? It just means they don't know how to work around the grabs, ALWAYS. Or don't have the tech skill to do so. Tech skill with different characters can get you different results with each respective character. With sheik, for example, tech skill of average level will allow one to ascend in tourney level play just as long as you play smart, the same cannot be said, in most cases of space animals. Similarly, the ice climbers require, in a sense, even less tech skill which gives them some breathing room in tourney play. Moreover, they have a serious drawback in that if your opponent effectively targets one of you and dispatches 1/2 of the team of IC's you are left gimped. I'm just saying where would the IC's be without the infinite...yah they have pretty sweet chaingrabs but they don't work on everyone. In other words those characters that the IC chaingrabs don't work on, lets say Falcon would pretty much have them at a complete and utter disadvantage yielding them essentially unable to defeat a falcon of same or even slightly worse level. This is assuming the falcon plays smart, and even if you play smart are outclassed by speed. Do you want the IC's to have a chance against their counters? Isn't it cheap that falcon can up-air your nana across the stage to a knee? How bout fox up-airing your nana through the roof?

The IC's are better off with the infinite and it makes us better when playing someone who uses it. Yah it's annoying....but hey there are alot of annoying things that other players can do to. People don't like to feel helpless, that's understandable, but at the same time getting over that feeling is what makes one a better than average and eventually great tourney player.

 

[AzN_Lep]

In other words those characters that the IC chaingrabs don't work on, lets say Falcon would pretty much have them at a complete and utter disadvantage yielding them essentially unable to defeat a falcon of same or even slightly worse level.

... ... ... what? Can't chaingrab Falcon?! *looks at signature*

Falcon vs IC definitely isn't a completely one-sided match, especially not in Falcon's favor. I don't feel like elaborating on this at the moment, but rest assure while Falcon's speed is deadly, it most certainly does not render "them at a complete and utter disadvantage" That's just crazy talk.

While IC do have the best grab combos and chain throws in the game, all good IC players take advantage of, but are not reliant on their grab game. Wobbles is the (ironically) one of the best examples of this. I'd reference Chu but so many people say "well that's just Chu." Anyways, if you've seen any of Wobbles' matches even when he gets down to just Popo, he can take off a stock or inflict a good amount of damage. The IC game just changes when Popo is left solo, there are more n-airs combos and other subtleties, but even without their amazing chain throws and infinite, IC aren't "useless"

 

[dReAMCloUd - Assault K 40]

I said "let's say falcon" meaning that he could or could not be chaingrabbed. It was not literal, just using falcon, I could've used anyone. Take your pick of characters that cannot be chaingrabbed in high tier/upper tier.

Hmm that's wrong.....without grab combos the IC's would be lowest on the tier list, what can you do......wavesmash...snot gonna stop a needle spamming sheik. In other words at higher levels of play, IC potential, is due primarily if not entirely to their sick grab combos and sometimes even their infinites.

 

[chu12ch]

Hmm that's wrong.....without grab combos the IC's would be lowest on the tier list, what can you do......wavesmash...snot gonna stop a needle spamming sheik. In other words at higher levels of play, IC potential, is due primarily if not entirely to their sick grab combos and sometimes even their infinites.

IC's ARE very (but not completely) reliant on the grab combos... But almost every character is reliant on some technique, move, or skill that when utilized will usually have a successful outcome... And saying that IC's are reliant on their grabs is just stating a fact, its a tactic that they have to use, just like fox's have to utilize the shine's speed and combos, marth's have to correctly space to use the sword to its maximum capability, and falco's have to use the SHL to have a near flawless approach game...

The argument that "without the grab combos the IC's would be lowest on the tier list" shouldn't mean a thing because, they have their grab combos, just like fox has his shine, marth has his sword, zelda has her down+b, the list goes on... Just like i said before, characters' all have those moves that defines the character, true that the IC's would be lowered without grabs, but anybody without their main attack would be gimped horribly...

...

And about the infinite, if you dont want to get infinited that badly... It's not that hard to gimp off the computer AI... I also always liked the philosophy of "Don't get hit"... Just like everyone has to learn how to play against fox, its now time to learn how to play against ice climbers...

 

[AzN_Lep]

First off, I'm going to assume by grab combos you are referring to chain throwing. what you seem to misunderstand is that IC have become reliant on their grab combos (chain throw and infinite) because they have them. If IC were designed without their chain grabbing game, players would have taken an entirely different approach when learning IC. However, they would most certainly not be "lowest on the tier list" Good players would still be able to utilize their WD jabs, tilts, desynchs, and basic grab smash combos to make them competitive.

Imagine Fox without his shine. Most Fox players have become fairly reliant on Fox's shine because it's his best move, it would be dumb not to use it. Again, if he was designed without his shine he wouldn't be useless. Players would just take a different approach: shffling into jabs and such.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kTo8v9lKY6E That's a match between Chu and Wes. He uses a basic grab to smash combo as a kicker, but Chu doesn't once chainthrow or infinite, not once. I guess IC are pretty useless without chainthrows.

 

[chu12ch]

I dont know what dreamcloud was referring to, but i was talking about anything that stems from a grab including; smashes, chain throws, combos, and infinite...

 

[1048576]

What, Wes can't adapt. Wow dreamcloud, he must really suck. Don't you agree? In all seriousness though, the IC grab game is obviously competent enough without the infinite. The infinite just makes them unbalanced.

 

[greenblob]

My take: in all practicality, infinite = zero/low % -> death combo. Plenty of zero/low % -> combos exist, and no one's picking on those.

 

[lmnz]

wow this seems to be going off topic so i guess i'll bring it back =]

there are certain things in this game that you cannot possibly stop at ANY cost but that doesn't mean you can't limit the possibilities you give the opponent using that "unstoppable technique". now in the ice climbers infinite situation is that there are a LOT of things ICs have that can get you in a grab(since that's what they're trying to do most of the game), but the person that is playing vs ICs can do things to limit ICs grab options. we all know shield grabbing is one of the most basic ways to get a grab off someone.. but fox players developed shffl shine to negate the effectiveness of shield grabbing right? now i'm not saying i know exactly what to do with each character to avoid certain "grab situations" ice climbers throw at them but asking people to think outside the box to stop complaining about infinites and make the best of the situation before and play to their best ability so that when they DO get grabbed, they add a new scenario where you can easily get grabbed and can prevent from putting themselves in that same situation next stock.

i don't even know if all that made sense since i posted this right after i woke up :D

 

[1048576]

My take: in all practicality, infinite = zero/low % -> death combo. Plenty of zero/low % -> combos exist, and no one's picking on those.

The reason nobody picks on those is because the opponent still has DI, and people often have a difficult time keeping up with DI. Most tourney games don't have a single 0/low-death combo performed unless the IC's are involved. MLG specifically states that any techniques which immobilize your opponent's character are banned. MLG specifies the soul stunner and the freeze glitch. Why doesn't wobbling fall into this category of tactics?

 

[N1c2k3]

I started writing this weeks ago, stopped 1/2 way through, saved, and picked up again today and finished it. Skip to the end if you want the recap...

I like what Chadd talked about in the 1st few posts, about Marvel and other 2D fighters. I tried getting into Marvel before Smash, even though I had layed Smash longer, my first 3 tournies being Marvel/3rd Strike ones. I quickly earned, and this is not my opinion but an obeservation, and most others would likely say the same thing, that the overall level of skill and competition in the traditional figher world, is overall higher than in Smash. If there is any reason for this it would obviously be because they have been around for much longer and therefore gathered a much larger fanbase, in obvious turn producing much more competition. On the flip side however, we all know smash is a completely different type of game, and most would probably say, and rightly so, that pretty much every other fighter has a more technical neccessity, and Smash, while the technical aspect is still there, it is only the first and lesser step to becoming truly good to the game, brainwork or "mindgames" being the much bigger and extremely difficult step. Anyways, back on topic. Though IMO it's hard to even compare Smash to any other fighter, since it's not like any other, you just can't help (especially if you've played many other) to see how balanced it really is in comparison. The last and most important point, IMO, is that having such an infinite still does not rocket a char like the IC's up to the tiers to the level of brokenness everyone seems to be complaining about, if at all. Everyone's forgetting that even though, yes, IC's MAY have the most potential of any char, given that there's two of them, it doesn't make up for their glaring weaknesses. They still get heavily taken advantage of by quite a few char's. As off-balancing in certain aspects as it may be, I sincerly doubt it will ever come to the point where it's considered truly "game braking". You can't base the entire, or even majority, of a char's worth just on what they can do from a grab. That's the same as saying that a character is broken just cause they have a single non-grab move. Though, I think the shine as close to justifying this as you can come, it still doesn't hold water. All in all, I think the IC's are exactly where they should be, tier-wise, and I'd be extremely surprised if they ever moved up past where they currently are. So for the lazy one's who didnt' feel like reading all of that, my central point/opinion is:

Is the infinite cheap? Yes. Is it cheap enough to the point of true "brokenness" or enough to off balance the game? No...

 

[chu12ch]

My friend just uses young link and projectile spams and runs till nana is off the edge...

 

[1048576]

How can he get away? IC's move around pretty fast. I play against Young Link, too, and he also spams projectiles, but all I have to do is use Nana as a shield, wavedash up with Popo, land a grab or a set of two attacks, wait for Nana to catch up, pummel his pathetic close range game, land the grab, end the stock, gg Young Link.

Does anyone have an explanation for MLG's double standard regarding attacks that immobilize your opponents character?

 

[chu12ch]

either i lack the skill to catch up to him, or he is just the greatest spammer... but he does good about not getting grabbed, and when he does, a boomerang usually hits me on its way back, or the bomb in his hand explodes...

 

[AzN_Lep]

Numbers, according to M3D or JV (which ever one was proctoring at MLG Anaheim) The infinite grab would only be banned if the player uses it to stall the match. If you use it to just take a stock it's legit, mostly (if I recall correctly) because there is still a margin of error (granted that the margin is abysmal now.)The freeze glitch is banned because once done correctly there is no margin of error to kill of your opponent, and if improperly handled the match is stalled indefinitely. Bad reasoning, if you ask me, but this is how things ended up.

 

[1048576]

That is bad reasoning. There is always a margin of errror. You could suicide four times. That's weak ****. Oh well, thanks for the info.

 

[x4FoSho4x]

do certain characters get wobbled more than others?

 

[x4FoSho4x]

the wobble

My bad for the double post.

 

[1048576]

What do you mean by that? It's easier to land the grab with Nana in place on some characters, but once it is set up, Wobbling doesn't discriminate among characters.

 

[N1c2k3]

I hate how the level of discussion in this thread just died, especially after I spent a gajillion man hrs making that **** post!

 

[LuCKy]

beating the wobble???? well all i can say is that if people are ****ing about ic's then well there is a big flaw in the infinate first off dont get grabbed if thats too hard dont get grabbed when nana is near third kill nana and there goes the the wobble and half of there power lol and if someone like marth or shiek had an somthing like a wobble everyone would use it nobody would ***** if there character had a wobble lol so just leave it alone

 

[Shai Hulud]

Wobbles just won Evo South and a bunch of people are *****ing about it because he beat players like Caveman, who apparently aren't supposed to lose to players like Wobbles.

Whatever. Let them *****. Wobbles has mastered a powerful tactic, making the Ice Climbers a force to be reckoned with, and all the Fox/Falco players are upset because their God tier characters get beaten by such "cheap" and "unskillful" tactics.

If this tactic gets banned just because Ice Climbers start doing well, that will be ridiculous.

 

[Elen]

If this tactic gets banned just because Ice Climbers start doing well, that will be ridiculous.

It won't as it doesn't stop a player from having normal movement, or stall for time infinitely. Those are the only professionally banned techniques. Foxes waveshine is an infinite on certan characters, this just happens to be a bit easier to do and work on a much wider range of characters. It's part of the game, deal with it.

 

[tarheeljks]

1) it is definitely easier to set up some characters for the wobble
2)the wobble is ridiculous b/c no one is so good that it is impossible for them to be grabbed. anyone who says otherwise (i.e. thinks they can avoid grabs) is just deluding themself.

 

[Wayland]

Counterpick! Remember, if you get wobbled the first match, figure out how to play on Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Poke Floats, Corneria, Mute City, ect. That'll make it harder for the IC's to initiate the wobble as well as continue. I don't like wobbling, but I don't think it should be banned, because there are viable ways to beat it.

 

[tarheeljks]

I'm not saying you can't beat the IC's just b/c they can wobble, plenty of pros do it. However, you cannot stop the wobble once it has begun. It's not like Falco's shine combos, where you can get out of it by DI-ing properly. Also, how do you suggest avoiding grabs w/o camping for the entire match.

 

[1048576]

The IC's have a good grab range, a quick grab, a far-reaching wavedash, and a double shield. You can't just not get grabbed for the entire match unless you are much, much better than the other player. If you are of equal skill you will get grabbed four times. Even if Nana is not there at the time, a simple d-throw to jab/wavedash/nair to grab will allow a skilled IC to grab until Nana appears or until higher percents. Counterpicking might work, but you can't win only the matches where you get to pick the stage and win the set. It does stop the opponent form having normal movement. It's pretty much a simpler freeze glitch. It immobilizes your character. Oh, and to Lucky, my character has a Wobble and I still ***** about it

 

[chu12ch]

from 0-around 40, if you just twirl the control and c sticks you will get out before the first headbutt or tilt... Its just time that people learn how to play against ice climbers...

And many techniques have been stated that can be used to counter wobbling... The most effective one in my opinion, use ice climbers...

 

[tarheeljks]

i thought it was like 20%. also if the freezie glitch is banned, what's the reasoning for not banning the wobble?

 

[LuCKy]

ok since i read someone say its impossible to get out im gonna give a small tip of what messes me up when i wobble lol now when i wobble its like a rythem in my head the one thing i listen to is the sound of my a button as i push it and just start a pattern if other ic players do it like this then just tap a the same time as they tap it and wiggle he joy stick a lot wiggling the joy stick will help you get out but dont do it so loud that the 1 wobbleing cant hear you tapping the a button now just tap a in the same rytem as your the person who is wobbleing you and it migt mess up there timing good luck ic haters


or just counter pick samus and peach do really well ic dittos isnt that bad if the guy you are trying to counter pick mains ic's they might have better mind games with them and will just wait for a smash to seperate you from nana and the punish nana by owning the **** out of her and then wobbly popo so ic ditto is not that smart

 

[tarheeljks]

@lucky: this is precisely my problem with the move. the person being wobbled can't do anything except hope that the wobbler messes up. how is that fair?

 

[chu12ch]

I dont see whats so hard about killing nana really fast... All the people i play with can do it pretty well... scratch that... VERY well... the only time i do land a wobble is when they mess up bad because half of the time nana just got hit really far away...

 

[jotun]

This infinite is pretty much the same thing as the freeze glitch.

- victim has zero control of his character
- ICs can rack up as much damage as they want for a guaranteed kill
- Can be used to stall

The differences are small. (yes, even though they require more text)
- The freeze glitch requires the secondary IC to do the grab (harder to do)
- The freeze glitch requires the secondary IC to throw in the right direction (sometimes doesn't work)
- The infinite requires the IC player to keep tapping A at an approximate rhythm. If you spend 30 minutes to learn the rhythm, you can easily do the infinite without looking, or even turn to your opponent and have a conversation. Clearly not as hard as getting Nana to grab instead for the freeze glitch.
- On just a few of the allowable stages, and none of the neutral stages, the actions of the stage could break the infinite.
- Freeze glitch is banned, infinite is not. WHY?

 

[tarheeljks]

my reservations of the infinite have little to do with how easy it is to perform. those who are in favor of the wobble seem to defend it by saying it is avoidable, which implies that it is your fault if you get grabbed. the issue with the wobble is not whether or not you can avoid it. all moves are theoretically avoidable, the difference is that no other move leaves the victim no method of escape. this is the only combo in the game that you can't get out of.

i agree w/jotun.

 

[BigRick]

''victim has zero control of his character'' - Jotun

You still have control of your character, but if feels like you have no control over him because he is getting his butt kicked. If you mash the buttons, your character will try to wiggle free. So what you said is wrong, and the infinite cannot be considered the same thing as the freeze glitch.

''no other move leaves the victim no method of escape. this is the only combo in the game that you can't get out of.'' - tarheeljks

Now that's a better argument. But it is false to some extent: There are plenty of combos that are inescapable in this game when properly executed, even WITH PROPER DI. However, they are most of the time character and percentage specific.

If you truly have no problem with the fact that the infinite is easy to perform, then you gotta respect the fact that the infinite, when properly executed, has the right to be inescapable like many other combos in this game.

 

[LuCKy]

like i said try to mess up there timing its that simple now the wobbles is simple after learning it but its all timing if the wobbler miss times one a button you could get out its that simple so just tap a really loud at the same speed as the wobbler to confuse there timing

 

[1048576]

And many techniques have been stated that can be used to counter wobbling... The most effective one in my opinion, use ice climbers...

Oh, God. Isn't that also how you counter Akuma's fireballs? (By picking Akuma, not the Ice Climbers )

 

[Plairnkk]

the best way to avoid wobbling is to come to pound 2 because that **** is not going down there.

;D

 

[chu12ch]

If both characters are considered "cheap" (not that im calling them cheap), then each person is capable of doing the same things... And it becomes a battle of who's better... (at dittos...)

 

[KishPrime]

Sadly I can't check this from work as it is blocked, but since the topic at hand is BEATING the infinite instead of BANNING the infinite, here's a potential vid to check out:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1799168055223925891&hl=en

Hopefully someone can verify that it is the right one. Drephen vs. Trail. Keep them separated and they can't infinite.