I like this one better than Young Link.
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Perhaps you misunderstood, by spaing I mean akin to how Pit has issues dealing with those close to him.I think he's still a bit underrated. Unlike Pit, good Toon links have taken top players out of tournmanet before (like Chip) and we know he's still got the potential. IMO his weakness is that horizontal recovery (vertical is great). Sure he's floaty but like Marth pretty easy to edgehog, it's certaintly exploitable.
I disagree with the idea that Marth and MK can outspace him. It's almost impossible to "outspace" his bombs, so Marth tends to go aggro. MK does the same. When I use Toon link and play good Marth's and MK's they get in my face rather than trying to space me, because if they try to space toon link, you just camp with projectiles. he has major problems with MK not because of spacing but because of MK's speed and ability to get in his face quick, rendering camping not very effective. Speed beats toon link not range IMO.
I think he is solid too, slightly above mid tier but yeah he's not in those top 8 elite characters...he's a step below.
This. I don't mean "top five" good, but top ten, certainly.Toon Link is one of those characters that doesn't have a lot of gimmicks or overly powerful/useful options.
He is, however, chock full of rather useful and plentiful options. He is a fast, powerful, versatile character with nice projectiles, a great pressure game, many KO moves, and the ability to camp quite well.
I am convinced that Toon Link epitomizes the idea of "He is as good as the person using him." I think he could be one of the best characters if someone really took him to the limit.
I would just include Olimar.I think people that should be above TL are (In no order) MK Snake Diddy Wario Marth Pika D3 ZSS IC Falco at least.
Well, by shuffling the current tier list's characters around while still having the same divisions with the same number of characters inside (1 for top, 11 for high, 15 for mid, 10 for low), it would go something like this up until TL:Kewkky, out of curiosity, who else would you put above Toon Link besides the ones listed by ESAM plus Olimar?
M2K is amazing, and he will destroy everybody lol. Snake is also one of ZSS's harder MU's because of the OOS options. If ZSS doesn't get a gimp in that MU its basically over. Nick knows our habits too well to really shieldcamp him...he gets a lot of grabs on us. It is kinda irritating. Also, Ally didn't DESTROY him, it was 1 stock every match aside from FD I think (Yay shield breaker!). Also, if we shield camp him, he will D-smash our shields, which leads to a frame neutral zone, so if you try to drop shield anything (Unless you have invulnerable Up-b OOS like MK and Marth) ZSS can jab you with one frame, so most people stay in their shield...and he just keeps doing it/rolls around us and pokes. It really isn't as easy as "Just shield, you good"I dunno, ESAM... Nick might have dominated in MLG-Columbus, but after his domination, he was soundly destroyed by both Ally and M2K when they caught onto ZSS's weakness. Does anyone in Florida play shieldcampy with characers she goes even with? Or does everyone try to bait him into doing mistakes instead?
It might be that his thought pattern is that of a really great player, and not the character itself, that is playing around the shieldcamping. I mean, her grabs are all 16 frames, theoretically they shouldn't be connecting as often as Nick is succeeding with it... To tell you the truth, the only tourney-placing ZSS that keeps beating top players from around the place is Nick. boss and BigLou do some nice jobs as Luigi, Shaky did (and does) a nice job as Ness... It's all about the characters having really great players playing them most of the time.M2K is amazing, and he will destroy everybody lol. Snake is also one of ZSS's harder MU's because of the OOS options. If ZSS doesn't get a gimp in that MU its basically over. Nick knows our habits too well to really shieldcamp him...he gets a lot of grabs on us. It is kinda irritating. Also, Ally didn't DESTROY him, it was 1 stock every match aside from FD I think (Yay shield breaker!). Also, if we shield camp him, he will D-smash our shields, which leads to a frame neutral zone, so if you try to drop shield anything (Unless you have invulnerable Up-b OOS like MK and Marth) ZSS can jab you with one frame, so most people stay in their shield...and he just keeps doing it/rolls around us and pokes. It really isn't as easy as "Just shield, you good"
On the contrary! I think M2K learned a nice amount about ZSS from Snakeee back in the day. Didn't Snakeee then start rambling about how garbage ZSS is, and what a huge gimmick character she is? He also pointed out her huge weakness to excessive shielding because apparently, top players were catching on (including M2K). Hell, Snakeee 2-stocked M2K in their first match ever, I saw that stuff while ZSS was still my solid main so I remember. ;DI didn't see M2K "catching on to ZSS's weaknesses" I saw M2K out-play Nick and read everything he did, regardless of character choice. You know, like he does to a lot of people, because he's M2K.
See, here's the thing... You pointed out something that would most likely stab through my shield, IF I can't react in time. Knowing what it is that will poke through my shield, I think I would be more ready than that. If I have time for a reaction, then that means it has holes in it, ZSS's vulnerable doing those things. Which means that if I react in time, I should be hitting her/evading it more than she should be hitting me.He doesn't even have to grab dude, ZSS is really good with shield pressure. D-smash jab roll behind jab d-tilt will most likely stab you if you can't react in time (ZSS has an awesome forward roll)
I don't think he's saying that at all- he's saying that she can apply great pressure by mixing up what she does in order to throw off the opponent's reaction time. None of it is "guaranteed" but that doesn't matter. You're causing them to make a guess, which makes them easier to read.The way you're speaking about ZSS is like you have NOTHING you can do to stop her from doing her thing with the pressure.
This'll be my last post in the TL thread concerning ZSS, since this thread is going to the TL boards and in no way does this argument correlate to TL's character discussion. Me being a mod and all, I should know better. :|I don't think he's saying that at all- he's saying that she can apply great pressure by mixing up what she does in order to throw off the opponent's reaction time. None of it is "guaranteed" but that doesn't matter. You're causing them to make a guess, which makes them easier to read.
Well its as you said.M2K is amazing, and he will destroy everybody lol. Snake is also one of ZSS's harder MU's because of the OOS options. If ZSS doesn't get a gimp in that MU its basically over. Nick knows our habits too well to really shieldcamp him...he gets a lot of grabs on us. It is kinda irritating. Also, Ally didn't DESTROY him, it was 1 stock every match aside from FD I think (Yay shield breaker!). Also, if we shield camp him, he will D-smash our shields, which leads to a frame neutral zone, so if you try to drop shield anything (Unless you have invulnerable Up-b OOS like MK and Marth) ZSS can jab you with one frame, so most people stay in their shield...and he just keeps doing it/rolls around us and pokes. It really isn't as easy as "Just shield, you good"
1) If M2K or Ally read that post, then you would fail.Chip > you.