Wow, Lucario boards are silly. Your character IS a gimmick. I've explained WHY it's a gimmick. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that I've put in DOUBLE your playtime, for those of you claiming I'm a theory crafter, and the ONLY non-BBR member to post in this thread that's better than me in actual play is Ksizl (who at least had the decency to speak to me with respect [<3 Kelvin]). Don't get mad because I'm calling people out on doing dumb stuff that enables you to win, when your character isn't as good as perceived.
When I look at characters, I look at their possible options, look at their best options, look at their opponent's options, and determine whether or not someone is either:
A) Consistently picking sub-par options
B) Failing to adjust to an avoidable encounter
C) Using option limiters properly
D) Evading damage to self properly.
When people play Lucario, they consistently pick sub-par options (like dodging into walls)
They fail to adjust to an avoidable encounter (like ADing into Fsmash, when they could just attack Lucario and take MUCH less punishment.)
They don't use option limiters properly. Lucario has 5 main options:
Roll, Wall, Fair, Grab, Aura Sphere. Using proper option limiters, an opponent can reduce 2 of those options completely (grab and roll), they can space to be able to react to an approach (Roll and Fair), they can dodge Aura Sphere on Reaction. That leaves Walling, which prevents the Lucario from taking damage. Now Lucario is saved from being a terrible character, because his walls are REALLY GOOD, and his roll is a great escape. Furthermore, Aura Sphere is a great mix-up (hitting SHs with Aura Sphere is so satisfying) and since the projectile "forces an approach" (but not really), you have a strong level of defensive gameplay here. Since it's hard to approach Lucario on the ground for most characters, he's fortunate to have his Fair, which is an amazing anti-air, and even though it loses to attacks a lot, it's fast enough to get the jump on people, if you will. Though Dair can be SDIed, it's still a great punish tool.
So with these tools, Lucario is a good character, but is mostly a gimmick, because once you understand this is how Lucario works, you can effectively shut him down with a lot of characters that have the simple tools to deal with this.
I strongly harbor my feelings that Lucario is an overrated character. I don't even play the MU all that well (because I still get hit by LOLZY gimmick approaches like roll into Utilt or jab, which is sadly one of your best approaches.)
RJ, I don't think rolling in is a bad habit. Lucario doesn't have amazing approach options. Your roll is amazing. Abuse amazing stuff.
The problem isn't a rolling habit. The problem is a that Lucario doesn't have amazing approach options. His Run-into shield is weak, because he has slow OOS options and low grab range (and mediocre dash speed). His Fair is a decent approach, except against anyone with any other real zoning tool, because for some reason, it just LOSES to stuff. Aura Sphere is a good projectile, and honestly, it saves your character by giving you a mix-up game, and a somewhat intimidating projectile. Honestly, without this move, you'd probably be low-tier. If nothing else, PLEASE learn to use Aura Sphere as well as possible. When your approach options are:
A) Hope they run into a wall
B) Fair
C) Roll in
D) Aura Sphere
and in the current metagame, rolling in is so powerful, especially because your character design ENCOURAGES run into shield, a beastly forward roll is AMAZING. However, I can cover only that option against Lucario and be relatively safe, because you don't have other approaches to fall back on. You just can rely on a base-par camp mix-up, which cannot hit solidly damage a player who understands the character.
Now, this is my observation of your character. If you happen to know something I don't (it's possible, you main this character after all, and you seem to think I'm wrong about something, let me know). My entire style of play revolves around abusing the hell out of character weaknesses. This actually makes Lucario an annoying character for me to fight, because I am an aggressive player, and Lucario's rolling and powerful walling dissuades aggression. When I simply stick to textbook counter-lucario strategies, I have YET to see it fail me, unless I make actual MISTAKES during gameplay. I'm not theory-crafting these things. I'm taking what I have seen and DONE.
Now, I will say that since we're human and we all make mistakes, Lucario is a great character that can capitalize on these mistakes. I'll make a mistake and drop the kill on Lucario, then he'll hit me with massive Aura bonus, and I'll get flustered, allowing to hit me 4 more times and take the lead. Aura Bonus, and Lucario's moveset are great for punishing mistakes brutally. However, Lucario doesn't force mistakes well. He's too slow in his frame data to pose threats from a lot of lines and angles. I make mistakes even in the most basic of matches, which is why I only sometimes three stock Lucario. No one plays perfect all the time. Often I get two stocks because I KNOW THE MATCH-UP. Also, Aura makes utterly destroying Lucario pretty hard, so often, the match appears closer than it actually might have been.
The reason I rant when I fight against Lucario is because I get MAD when I get hit by him. It means I made a mistake. Lucario has very minimal pressure game to speak of. When you bait me, or connect a legitimate hit off of a read or a pressure string, I always compliment you, because I'm identifying a situation of me getting out-played.
Ksizzle, ROFLMAO @ "No one baits in 2010." All good players bait. YOU BAIT. Actually, YOUR BAITING IS ****ING AMAZING. I bait (and hell, I'll toot my own horn a bit, my baiting is pretty good.) RJ is GREAT at baiting. Everyone baits bro. Lucario also baits. You cannot hit people with Fsmash unless you bait them. Or they're scared. I don't understand how an amazing baiter like yourself could even fathom to think that people don't bait in 08.
The problem is that since so many people still don't understand this game, people get hit for free all the time. When I think about MUs and the Tier List and stuff like that, I think to myself, "Remove mistakes from the game, and take players like Isai and his 'Don't get hit' mentality, and M2k's amazing option limiting mentality, and apply it to both characters and see what happens." Does that involve a lot of theory craft? Yes. Does that mean I never test out my stuff? Not at all.
So to Mr. Browny who dares come out of his face with despicable nonsense like "Stick to Marth because that's all I know" please money match me for any sum, Mario vs. Lucario. I've already detailed my primary Anti-Lucario strategies to you, so it should be a breeze. I'd use Marth, but apparently that's all I know, so I figure I should use a different character to really EMPHASIS my point. I know more about this game then you could even imagine, and I play many characters at a competent competitive level.
In regards to Lucario vs. Pikachu . . . Pikachu is a character of recent study that I actually know little about. I've been observing Pikachu play, and I'm studying his match-ups. However, I've yet to witness the Lucario vs. Pikachu MU. I simply offered a tad bit of advice off of a little bit of theory-craft, however, it was obvious in my post that I was not familiar with the MU, and I was merely planting a suggestion of what I would personally try first.
To end I'll just point out something amusing. You'll note that I never once said that Lucario should drop a tier.
I would first like to point out that despite Lucario only hitting someone then they make a "mistake" (I use quotes because it's not really true, but I will go by what you are saying for the sake of the argument)Does not make him a gimmick, in fact, it only shows that he is amazing on capitalizing mistakes. I understand that you pointed out that since we are all human, we are going to have errors, but I am reiterating it because that statement is just that. Because you are human, no matter how good you are, you will mess up. You can limit your way of going about this, but when you do you will take a good amount of damage, which is not Lucario's fault, nor the player at hand, but rather you being human. We have tools to hit every mistake you make for 15 + damage, that does not make him a gimmick, that just shows that we have amazing tools in that category.
When you come down to it, in any fighter game you will not get hit unless you make a mistake on spacing or timing. The overall rule of the fighter game really does come down to which person does better at capitalizing on the mistakes to make it worth while.
Example:
I don't like to cross into other fighters outside of brawl, but lets take SSf4 for example.
Balrog vs Dan
Do you know if that Dan never makes a mistake in comparison to Balrog, he is going to win right? It is only in fact that since Balrog is BETTER at capitilizing on mistakes made, he has a clear cut advantage. Dans mistakes will be more devastating then Balrogs.
Example 2:
Smash Melee
Fox vs Gannon
If gannon does not make a mistake in comparison to fox, he will in fact win the game because he was never open to be hit in the first place.
Example finish
Now you take into account that tools vary to get your oppoent to make a mistake, and make them open, and that is what further defines the character as weather he is good or not.
Now, I will talk about this:
The problem isn't a rolling habit. The problem is a that Lucario doesn't have amazing approach options. His Run-into shield is weak, because he has slow OOS options and low grab range (and mediocre dash speed). His Fair is a decent approach, except against anyone with any other real zoning tool, because for some reason, it just LOSES to stuff. Aura Sphere is a good projectile, and honestly, it saves your character by giving you a mix-up game, and a somewhat intimidating projectile. Honestly, without this move, you'd probably be low-tier. If nothing else, PLEASE learn to use Aura Sphere as well as possible. When your approach options are:
A) Hope they run into a wall
B) Fair
C) Roll in
D) Aura Sphere
First off, I would like to say that when it comes to apporaching, Lucario only has an issue against 3 characters that actually matter to be mentioned.
Marth
Metaknight
D3
Marth being the only reason is that his Standard game of "I'm going to fair to zone" completely out ranges Lucario, and in combination with his faster falling speed and mobility, it makes it very very hard to get in in the first place.
Metaknight is a bit different. Air camping Metaknight is not a issue to even be noted. If a MK air camps lucario, it's pretty easy to get around. This is where the ground game comes into play. Metaknight's clear cut advantage on the floor beats Lucario, which (from my perspective) very hard to handle Metaknight,
the only reason.
Now for D3, It's the sheer fact that the risk reward for attempting to go to him in the first place is very bad. I would not like to ping him for 3 damage for a trade of a CG or a backthrow. Other then that, D3 is completely avoidable. His Bair is cute and all, but it is not really that much of a problem as people like to claim.
Now, since all of that is out of the way, lets go to every other character. I have to talk from my perspective, since this is what I know best here.
WHEN DID I EVER HAVE A PROBLEM REACHING PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT THOSE 3 CHARACTERS?
It's rare, because frankly it's pretty much non existent. Lucarios OOS options might be a bit slower then everyone elses, but that does not constitute the fact that it is fast enough to cover the options it needs to cover properly. A frame 6 jab gets the job done on most options picked on shield against him, and for the moves that are picked against it that require a shield as the persons only option to escape damage, that is what grab is for. Then you can take into account that Utilt is a frame faster, which just makes all life nice and dandy. I remember telling you this before, but speed does not substitute a good option. You should know, you most likely know more frame data then I do. I only studied the things I need to know so I know what options to use for it. Frame 6 jab OOS is not as good as a frame 3 or 2 jab, but it is STILL fast enough to properly go about punishing moves in the game. You will not punish Lucarios jab on hit unless you have a frame 2 or faster move in the air, and in which case there are only like 5 characters who do. In sum, outside of the characters i noted, have fun zoning lucario to a point where he can't get to you.
RJ, I don't think rolling in is a bad habit. Lucario doesn't have amazing approach options. Your roll is amazing. Abuse amazing stuff.
Rolling in is bad, ESP against the characters I just mentioned. It should hardly be used in those scenario. I do abuse the broken option, but its not broken against some characters, like the ones I listed above. Rolling out is fine however.
The problem is that since so many people still don't understand this game, people get hit for free all the time. When I think about MUs and the Tier List and stuff like that, I think to myself, "Remove mistakes from the game, and take players like Isai and his 'Don't get hit' mentality, and M2k's amazing option limiting mentality, and apply it to both characters and see what happens
However, we do not live in a perfect world. The one thing that people fail to invite into their argument is that human error does play a large factor in any game. It should be used and counted for in any argument in a game. The largest part of theory is that you have to consider the option of if you did play it perfect, or the possibilities of what could happen if you messed up. It's just the factual message behind it. " for when there is a statement, there is a BUT statement that goes with it" This contains the obvious continuous loop, which is what makes theorycraft, theorycraft.
I don't like writing long posts, but I do correct what I feel is somewhat of error when I need too. I also think that saying Lucario is a gimmick, ESP after everything I said just now, is a wrong statement. To be more direct, it's not the right word to call lucario.
Wario doing his Smashville platform glitch is a gimmick.
Trying deliberate to cast off the green green bombs to stay there infinitely is a gimmick.
Lucario is NOT a gimmick.
You have to take into account that in another definition of the word "Gimmick" It will also classify as something that does not work, or is not set in stone on working. If we are to go by that definition however, most of the game is a gimmick, so we have to use a different variation of the meaning for the topic at hand. I handed out glitches that can be reproduced if attempted enough to substitute the terms of gimmicks, but can anyone say that what I am saying about the Wario and green green thing is not also classified as a gimmick as well as a glitch?
Rawr.
I'm kinda consistent about it, I wasn't just referring to you. Though I would definitely consider you most notable.
