BBR Matchup Chart for Sheik

[Renki]

I guess I might as well start a thread for it since no one else has.



-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:



And might as well add Sheilda too...


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:


I guess I'd like to start by asking who actually voted in this process for Sheik and Sheilda in particular. Certain numbers are questionable to me. Obviously, this is a compromise and isn't perfect, so uhh...let's discuss it? xD

 

[Zankoku]

Unlike the tier list, this one wasn't the direct result of voting and majority rules. I was one of three who contributed to Sheik's numbers.

If you want to discuss, we can start with which numbers you disagree with.

 

[Renki]

Hmm, going down the list, these are the main ones that catch my eye:

(For Sheik)
Kirby being -3 (I truthfully think it's no worse than -1)
GaW being -2 (I think it's either 0 or -1 at the worst)
Lucario being -2 (I can somewhat believe this, but I don't think Lucario is as bad as MK for us)


I guess that's all. I mean, I know it's a work in progress, but, I suppose a little light being shed on what was discussed would be cool. I know Ed finds the chart a bit questionable as well.

 

[Judo777]

Hmm, going down the list, these are the main ones that catch my eye:

(For Sheik)
Kirby being -3 (I truthfully think it's no worse than -1)
GaW being -2 (I think it's either 0 or -1 at the worst)
Lucario being -2 (I can somewhat believe this, but I don't think Lucario is as bad as MK for us)


I guess that's all. I mean, I know it's a work in progress, but, I suppose a little light being shed on what was discussed would be cool. I know Ed finds the chart a bit questionable as well.

I voted on this as well. First note the MU's aren't comparable. Lucario might not be as bad as MK (although i kinda think it is actually) but they are both solid disadv. The rating is based off of that simple terminology.

Kirby we have been discussing and i still believe whole heartedly its our third worst but other sheiks disagree. Thats just what we decided tho and i think Ank will back me up on this.

GaW i thought was -1 also but Ampharaos came and said seomething that i found interesting and made sense. He said once GaW plays the MU right and DOESN'T jump and just walks around safely and using his disjoints on the ground and going for grab setups it becomes much worse for sheik. Honestly that sounds about right to me since MOST GW's i have played just jump everywhere. When GW plays like weeg tho and just walks and goes for grab i can see it being tougher. Also when she gets in the air it can be pretty hard to get down.

 

[Renki]

I suppose I can understand what you're saying about Lucario. Lack of ability to kill him efficiently and his aura can be problematic.


I dunno man, GaW's grab is like Zelda horrible. It's god-awful. Turtle loses to needles, Nair loses to needles... and he's not exactly fast on the ground. I'm not sure what theorycraft was made there. His tech chases are nice...but his grab is terrible.

 

[Judo777]

I suppose I can understand what you're saying about Lucario. Lack of ability to kill him efficiently and his aura can be problematic.


I dunno man, GaW's grab is like Zelda horrible. It's god-awful. Turtle loses to needles, Nair loses to needles... and he's not exactly fast on the ground. I'm not sure what theorycraft was made there. His tech chases are nice...but his grab is terrible.

I mean i don't personally know myself. But as he said GW shouldn't be jumping so his aerials aren't gonna be considered very often. He walks, he dtilts, and he grabs us when we block is kinda what he was saying. Sheik can't really beat dtilt on the ground very well and if we jump it can be a problem. That's just what he was saying and I can't really call him on it cause I haven't played and GW's that did that.

 

[Zankoku]

Technically, Meta Knight's sword loses to needles as well. The issue with G&W is that the more options involving disjointed attacks where the best response is to shield without hope of punishment there are, the better off grab gets, regardless of range or speed. Needle Storm is great, but it's not actually safe at close ranges. G&W's movement may not be quick, but it's decent enough to close distance against needles, and he has pretty good aerial options if you attempt to jump and distance yourself again.

 

[Renki]

Ah, true. Without safety on shield, grabs are a lot stronger.

Hmm, well, maybe over time this will be more refined with more input from Sheik players, but, as a first try, it's not bad. <3

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

I disagree with Wario and sonic. I believe that Wario should be +-0 and Sonic+1.

This may be a result of Wario main's not knowing the Sheik MU, but all of the ones I've ever played talk about how hard the MU is for them. We have a really strong grab release game on him, and can wall him off easily. He can kill us really early, and rack damag eon us pretty fast as well. But in the end I don't see it as a disadvantage for either character.

Sonic, once again this may be because I've only played sonic mains that are inexperienced with the Sheik MU, but I really feel like we have plenty of tools to shut him down. He can't effectively approach us with spin dash since needles/jab/nair/ftilt all beat it (and I'm sure lots of other things we have beat it as well) and his aerial approaches can be anti-aerialed with all three of Sheik's tilts depending on which aerial the sonic is using. There's a lot that can go wrong in this MU, like not stopping a spin dash and taking like 40% for it which is why I wouldn't put it as anything higher than +1 but I really wouldn't call it even.


And while I've come to accept that I'm terrible at the Marth MU and the MK MU do believe that MK should be -3 and Marth -2.

 

[phi1ny3]

Mars probably has the most sonic experience out of the good sheiks since he plays X a lot, so I think his input/info would be the most accurate.

 

[Juushichi]

I feel pretty confident with this chart. Though... can someone run down the Oli matchup? I think it's a bit harder than -1, but I also really don't know it.

 

[Judo777]

I feel pretty confident with this chart. Though... can someone run down the Oli matchup? I think it's a bit harder than -1, but I also really don't know it.

I posted on the MU a while back typing up a huge essay. you should try and find it, i think its pretty accurate. Olimar is just a really odd MU but once you learn it its not so bad. I eat olimars for breakfast.

I felt sonic to be +1 also but Espy was arguing for the longest time that THEY had the advantage and it took me FOREVER to get them to settle on even. Sonic felt like one of the chars that I think they hyped their MU's way too much.

Wario we were gonna settle on even for reasons that you said, the thing that tips the scale however is Warios stage strength. We really have almost no strong CP against wario bar maybe FD (which they will ban) and he has ALOOOOOOT of good CP's against us.

 

[Espy Rose]

Don't worry. I feel the same way about the hype you gave Sheik, Judo.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Once again the highest level sonic I've played was speed and that was a while ago+ he didn't know what to do in the MU, but I honestly feel like Sheik can needle or forward tilt everything sonic does. Bair gets ftilted, fair get's f-tilted, auto canceled dair gets needled, all spin dash shenanigans get needles or f-tilted, you dcan srping out of f-tilt lock, but then we just have to wait for you to land and punish, your tilts can be punished with jab, which can lead into a plethora of things, bair off stage and f-smash are the only ways to kill us, and unless you get a nostradamus read, or we lag our selves hard f-smash shouldn't land. Bair off stage is legit if it hits and safe if it misses, but only having one strong kill option isn't what I'd call +1 in your favor.. or even lol.

Also our nair anti aerials everything you do as well.

Probably don't have to say this, but homing attack lands right in the sweetspot of our u-smash so thats a free kill lol.

 

[Judo777]

Don't worry. I feel the same way about the hype you gave Sheik, Judo.

Aw man i should have known better than to type ur name lol. You mean in general or on the sonic MU specifically, because most of the sheiks agree with me. And our MU spread isn't even that good.

 

[TKD]

/\ It's not just about tilt and needle. Sheik grabs better, walks better, has beter aerials, can juggle, trap and combo him, her needles hit Sonic during spindash so he can't set up from afar...she's just better...a lot better.

Fox is 3, WTF!!! I'd like to meet any Sheik player that can take one set from me...also Lucario's even at worst and I don't think MK has a big advantage on her. DDD is really difficult...Sonic being even is...mmph. If I take a closer look, I'll probably disagree with everything.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

The reason Fox is -3 is heavily reliant on the tilt lock. When I play Trunp without Ftilt lock, we go even and it's probably the most fun MU in brawl. Sheik is better offstage against fox bu Fox's moveset is generally better than ours. Without the lock, I think it's even and maybe even -1 for us because of his sheer killing power. Our Usmash kills just as early though should It tipper IMO.

 

[TKD]

I wouldn't expect landing the lock on more than 1 of a careful Fox's stocks.

 

[Judo777]

I wouldn't expect landing the lock on more than 1 of a careful Fox's stocks.

I mean if fox can reliably avoid a 5 frame move the entire time than sheik might lose pretty hard lol

Also I don't think D3 is bad at all for sheik. Lucario is also pretty bad for sheik. If we don't kill him at 90 he will be living to 180.

 

[2-DJeff]

If you do one for zelda renki i think its a -2 against IC you already know why i think that

 

[TKD]

Sheik still has the upper hand vs Fox, only that I'd call it a close match-up. Fox being able to avoid a 5 frame move doesn't mean that his options won't be limited in doing so.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Sheik still has the upper hand vs Fox, only that I'd call it a close match-up. Fox being able to avoid a 5 frame move doesn't mean that his options won't be limited in doing so.

This is true, but as long as Sheik doesn't play, telegraphing everything, Ftilt should be landable.

 

[Espy Rose]

Aw man i should have known better than to type ur name lol. You mean in general or on the sonic MU specifically, because most of the sheiks agree with me. And our MU spread isn't even that good.

Just on this particular match up. You undermined a ton of Sonic's potential in this match up.

 

[Judo777]

Sheik still has the upper hand vs Fox, only that I'd call it a close match-up. Fox being able to avoid a 5 frame move doesn't mean that his options won't be limited in doing so.

I mean it just seems unrealistic that fox can avoid sheiks i think 4th fastest move (the other being jab, uair, and dsmash each one beating it out by only a frame or 2) that is also one of our fathest reaching moves. It just seems like one of those things that if Fox can avoid that move then i don't see how we will be reasonably be able to beat him at all.

Its easier to avoid when sheik is being stupid and fishing for it, but if she is playing right then it wouldn't be any different than fox being able to stay un hit. That's just my opinion.

 

[-Mars-]

Bahhhhh I had like 5 paragraphs written on Sheik-Sonic MU and Sheik-Fox MU since I know those MU's pretty well but I clicked post but my computer acted gay and lost the whole post.

Summary:

Lucario beats Sheik badly

Sheik beats Sonic slightly from my experiences. I would like to hear Espy give his perspective since he plays differently from X.

Sheik still beats Fox really bad. TKD i'll be at Genesis so we can MM orfriendly or whatever.

Fox would probably go even with Sheik or even beat her if he had any sort of way to damage us long range. But he doesn't and his best spacing tool (bair) isn't amazing or anything so he has to get close to us.

 

[TKD]

I'd love money matching, or whatever, a ton of people. I don't do money matches though. I'd do them -after- a tourney, but I never want to play then. You have no idea how many things people learn from playing me...at least that's what I've been told.

Lucario's pretty threatening because he can get to live long vs Sheik, but that does nothing beyond evening up the match-up. He's not good enough to do better than that.

Sonic can barely even charge his ball, when he releases it he ends in the air (bad position) and both Sheik's juggle and close combat game is better than Sonic's.

I don't see how the Sheik being predictable or not will change her ftilt connection rate. I can only see how trying to avoid it will end in me being grabbed or punished -by other moves- more often. The most likely way I see for Sheik to ftilt me would be by POWERBLOCKING my nair and immediately ftilting me.

I don't know if you guys are seeing the game as though it was more simple, or more complicated than it is...but there are ways around a lot of things. I think "how stupid of me" when MK kills me with upb at high percentage (since it's such a predictable move that allows very easy punishment)...why would Sheik's ftilt be any different?

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

im hoping you're not comparing mks upb that results in him being air born (even so the hitbox is huge, has invincibility, and can go through essentially anything? you can't always 'predict' that)

to sheik's grounded 5 frame f-tilt with minimum winddown lag and ridiculous range


say it isn't so

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic can barely even charge his ball, when he releases it he ends in the air (bad position) and both Sheik's juggle and close combat game is better than Sonic's.

Wow. I had no idea that Sonic was forced into the air after a spin charge or a spin dash.
This is news to me. You're revolutionizing the meta game against Sonic, TKD.

Bravo.

You wanna know who else's CQC and juggle game are better than Sonics that he also doesn't lose to?
Luigi.

 

[<π]

lol fox sheik isn't +3
But I've been saying that for years. ftilt isn't that easy. if you die some how as impossible as it sounds and fox has damage some how UP ftilt doesn't work anymore. you actually have to fight in this match up. its about as easy as falco IMO.

I've never seen virg lose a set to a sheik, 'cept mine... I doubt TKD's fox would... except to mine, or someone else who plays really good foxes frequently.

Kirby -3?! where did that come from. That doesn't make any sense at all. a walking/running kirby that doesn't use bair? I'd think I'd love that. kirby definitely doesn't work better grounded than does so I'm really confused what the logic there was.

I agree with renki about GaW, peach should be -2...

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

TKD maybe I'm misreading your posts, but why do you think Lucario is a bad character?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I've never seen virg lose a set to a sheik, 'cept mine... I doubt TKD's fox would... except to mine, or someone else who plays really good foxes frequently.

I wanna play virg lol, we never played lol..

Personally, I think G&W is -1 and that's because of us being dynamic. Not anything on G&W. We can use our speed so well against G&W and IMO it makes such a huge difference.

 

[TKD]

TKD maybe I'm misreading your posts, but why do you think Lucario is a bad character?

Small range, mediocre recovery, average weight. His options from block are all very small. His grab range itself is small. He's not very quick, so he can't enter for some quick punishments. Some of his strongest moves are risky or require luck to land without being punished. SideB would've been a promising move...except it doesn't work from the air.

I think he should be played carefully like Sheik, but I don't think he's "bad". Just mid tier (if like me, you only break the cast into 3 tiers).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Small range, mediocre recovery, average weight. His options from block are all very small. His grab range itself is small. He's not very quick, so he can't enter for some quick punishments. Some of his strongest moves are risky or require luck to land without being punished. SideB would've been a promising move...except it doesn't work from the air.

I think he should be played carefully like Sheik, but I don't think he's "bad". Just mid tier (if like me, you only break the cast into 3 tiers).

It will grab frame 1 on landing.

His range is also better than most of the cast, his slow qualities are on the ground. His grab is bad range wise, but fast, his pivot grab is good.

 

[TKD]

His speed and range on the ground is very important because his hops are too floaty and committing. But his sideb DOES work upon landing. LOL that's awesome. Fast-fall sideb should work great on people aiming to block and punish.

 

[-Mars-]

Falco is different from Fox because he:

1. doesn't die from ftilt

2. Has a CG that leads into 40-60 percent depending on followups

3. better close range game


Very different matchups.

 

[Judo777]

Falco is different from Fox because he:

1. doesn't die from ftilt

2. Has a CG that leads into 40-60 percent depending on followups

3. better close range game


Very different matchups.

I agree ^^^. Fox's ftilt lock is just SOOOOOO easy compared to Falcos. Falcos is pretty hard to get a kill off of and fox is pretty straight forward. Also Falcos close game is a problem. His jab is longer than our ftilt. Fox's close game is much more manageable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

His speed and range on the ground is very important because his hops are too floaty and committing. But his sideb DOES work upon landing. LOL that's awesome. Fast-fall sideb should work great on people aiming to block and punish.

A lot of Lucario's should do it as a mix-up more, it helps solve an issue shields, Lucario's short grab range normally makes this a problem, but with this he can get it in the air after doing a fast aerial like his fair.

And yeah Lucario beats sheik, it's not even, her weight, range, and killing are an issue. She has an all around faster moveset and needles and can sometimes force Lucario in bad spots off stage if he goes low, but that's it.

 

[TKD]

We'll have to disagree on Sheik vs Lucario.

 

[<π]

Falco is different from Fox because he:

1. doesn't die from ftilt

2. Has a CG that leads into 40-60 percent depending on followups

3. better close range game


Very different matchups.

It's easy to list rando mthings fox can do in a match up that falco can't but instead I'll just point out these facts.

1. fox has 40-60% damage true combos on us too... utilt->utilt->utilt->usmash

2. falco does die to ftilt though, gotta learn to stall your ftilts to get the maximum number of tilts in while still comboing. Not very difficult.

yeah the match ups are different, but if ftilt is the only reason sheik beats fox... then she should be winning versus falco just as often. there are tons of ways for fox to deal damage and apply pressure without much fear of ftilit locks, and teh window in which you can ftilt lock doesn't consume the whole game anyway. against good foxes (or maybe more acurately) ones who know the match up, ftilt may net you one stock.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We'll have to disagree on Sheik vs Lucario.

I've experienced it plenty I'm not making this up, it's not that bad like Lucario vs Yoshi, but it's not even that much I can say.

Then again you have experience with Luc as well so idk, we just disagree on this I guess.