Bayonetta Combo & Followup Thread! [WIP]

[KyroChao]

Not sure if this is recorded yet but from about 0-45%, dtilt -> fair 1 -> uABK -> Breversed dABK -> dair seems true and seems to kill at the ledge, assume the opponents recovery doesnt bring them back to ledge.

Seems about true to the dair, amd may be di able but it seems true for the most part

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

I discovered that the first three hits of jab (not the rapid jab though) can combo into dtilt at low to medium percents, netting you potential dtilt followups (nair and fair for example).

 

[HuntarBarbarian]

At higher percents, I found that dABK -> uABK -> uAir can be a true kill option. I don't know if this has already been found, though.

 

[BJN39]

Pardon me if this has already been mentioned,

Something I remembered from the reveal gameplay and was able to emulate was WTwist > *uABK > uABK > WTwist and then I added > UAir/FAir to finish it.

The combo worked between 70-110 on Mario training (unfortunately that's where most of the testing has happened so far for me, so...grain of salt)

After WTwist one, you obviously need to jump so you can eventually WTwist again. I've found if the opponent doesn't do a downward DI of WTwist one, including the jump between WTwist 1 and uABK 1 is better so that you can more easily chain in the second WTwist later. At least for me it seems far easier to DJ before uABK 1 instead of trying to quickly DJ before WTwist 2.

FAir seems more guaranteed off of it, but if you land the UAir it can KO between the allotted window.

 

[Doopliss_Swe]

. I've found if the opponent doesn't do a downward DI of WTwist one, including the jump between WTwist 1 and uABK 1 is better so that you can more easily chain in the second WTwist later.

That's usually where I do it too. Trying to jump right before the 2nd WT doesn't work very well for some reason, it's like you have to wait a few frames to do it.

 

[HoSmash4]

Is it possible to differentiate between tap witch twist and bullet arts witch twist?

 

[Jaxas]

Alright guys, I'm gonna try and get this updated when I get up in the morning, but just a heads up that I have midterms this next week so I may not be as active during that time.

If someone wants to help me organize stuff then that'd be super helpful; also, I think I'll be swapping the layout to the combo 'chunks' after all, whenever I'm free again this week.

Anyways, awesome to see a lot of the stuff that's been found so far; just remember to try and test stuff with DI (& Rage/Staling) as well!

 

[Tythaeus]

Is it possible to differentiate between tap witch twist and bullet arts witch twist?

I noticed an audio cue difference and visual difference at the top and bottom of the move. Bulllet arts twist has the visual animation that occurs when you shoot her guns. The audio cue is sligtly different and barely noticeable.

 

[smashPony]

This is a minor detail yet its something important to keep in mind. Upon labbing on a CPU Kamui this morning, Ive found more consistency starting combos with Nair > WT as opposed to Fair > at very very low percentages [Around 0-15]. For example, a couple scenarios i use this in is in these sequences. From 0% - [DTilt > SH Nair > WT > DJ Fair 1 > WT > uABK > dABK > Fair 1 - 2 - 3.] [HSK 1 - 2 > FH Nair > WT > JC WT > uABK > dABK > Fair 1 - 2 - 3.]

-Key-

SH - Short Hop
WT - Witch Twist
DJ - Double Jump
FH - Full Hop
uABK - Up Angled Afterburner Kick
dABK - Down Angled Afterburner Kick
HSK - Heel Slide Kick

I know this doesnt seem so important but Ive noticed much more consistency using Nair in these low percentage situations rather than Fair; against very competent players. I hope this helps somebody.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

has anyone found how to jablock with bayo?

ive been able to get people consistently to the upper platform on battlefield with HSK > WT > ABK. after the ABK i always tried to get another one but apparently you can DI out of it making it so that they land on the platform instead.

i tried using BC but they are 4 shots so its an instant getup instead.

if theres a way to jab lock people there we could follow up with a kill confirm off the top.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Tried a few things with and without DI, on Sheik, no rage, all combos work without a DJ.
All of those have true followups that I couldn't be arsed to write down since you should know them by now.

HSK> uSpecial > ABK > ABK, 0-50%

dABK > 236ABK, 4-80%

dABK > ABK, 45-150%+

dABK > uAir, 0-150%+

dTilt > ABK, 0-115%

dTilt > uSpecial, 0-125%

falling uAir > uSpecial, 0-90%

fAir 1 2 followups are not true (DI away)
fAir 1 followups might? (DI'ing away is not enough to escape)

Bayonetta still feels OP to me because her combos work too well. Maybe I didn't DI properly because it's kinda hard with my feet but my first impression is that all of this is true. Even those cheap kill combos.

 

[Tomo009]

Not sure if this is recorded yet but from about 0-45%, dtilt -> fair 1 -> uABK -> Breversed dABK -> dair seems true and seems to kill at the ledge, assume the opponents recovery doesnt bring them back to ledge.

Seems about true to the dair, amd may be di able but it seems true for the most part

While this does work, your % range is completely off, at least on Sheik, I cannot see that working on anyone at 0 though.

Also Sheik can live that at 45 so it isn't really a legitimate kill setup unless they screw up their recovery

EDIT: Yeah I checked it out, it works until mid 60s, but it will never kill a character with good recovery, it IS a good damage combo if you then hit them with both witch twists on your way back to the ledge though, at 47% which is really nice for a mid % combo


If you want a similar kill setup on the ledge, you are looking more at something like

dtilt > fair1 > ABK > ABK > bair

which will start killing about 70%, a bit later with DI

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have a question about Bayonetta's combo tree.

As I understand it, she gets two uses of Afterburner Kick in a single combo, provided the first one actually hits. However, when I try the following...

dABK > fair 12 > WT > ABK

...the second Afterburner Kick fails to come out. Omitting either the second hit of fair or the Witch Twist both let ABK come out, but when I use both it doesn't work no matter how much I mash.

Am I missing something?

(Edit: dABK > fair 1 > WT > jump > ABK also doesn't work. It's starting to look like you can only have two actions in between ABK uses, or else you're locked out of the second one.)

In other news, dABK > dair registers as a true combo on Sheik in training mode starting at around 65% and kills near the ledge. You need to space the ABK hit just right or else the dair won't combo. Not sure if it can be DI'd.

 

[Otterz]

I have a question about Bayonetta's combo tree.

As I understand it, she gets two uses of Afterburner Kick in a single combo, provided the first one actually hits. However, when I try the following...

dABK > fair 12 > WT > ABK

...the second Afterburner Kick fails to come out. Omitting either the second hit of fair or the Witch Twist both let ABK come out, but when I use both it doesn't work no matter how much I mash.

Am I missing something?

In other news, dABK > dair registers as a true combo on Sheik in training mode starting at around 65% and kills near the ledge. You need to space the ABK hit just right or else the dair won't combo. Not sure if it can be DI'd.

I had the same problem trying to do dABK>Fair1>WT>ABK. After practicing it a lot I think this ABK has a much tighter window or else it won't come out at all for some reason. I can get it consistently now, but its all timing (I do it as close to WT1's IASA frame as possible.) and I see no explanation as to why it is different from other combos with ABK2.

Not using Bullet Arts on WT1 is very important as well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I had the same problem trying to do dABK>Fair1>WT>ABK. After practicing it a lot I think this ABK has a much tighter window or else it won't come out at all for some reason. I can get it consistently now, but its all timing (I do it as close to WT1's IASA frame as possible.) and I see no explanation as to why it is different from other combos with ABK2.

Not using Bullet Arts on WT1 is very important as well.

After a bit of experimenting, I think there's a hidden timer of some sort. Try a dABK on a grounded target, then stall in the air for a bit with WT and your double jump. After 1-2 seconds, I couldn't get a second ABK to come out.

Does using Bullet Arts with WT delay its IASA?

 

[Otterz]

Does using Bullet Arts with WT delay its IASA?

Yes, this is very important for combos. pikazz had a good post on it somewhere iirc.

EDIT: Here

 

[DeadLuckChris]

Dtilt -> utilt -> SH fair 1 -> WT -> jump -> dABK -> dABK -> WT
Pretty much a zero to death, second hit of fair would also work too.

 

[Otterz]

Dtilt -> utilt -> SH fair 1 -> WT -> jump -> dABK -> dABK -> WT
Pretty much a zero to death, second hit of fair would also work too.

Lets rub salt in the wound and add an Uair/Fair.

 

[Tomo009]

I highly doubt dtilt > utilt will happen with DI, but that combo is the damage BnB at low %s otherwise

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

some oddshots for future reference.

http://oddshot.tv/shot/nairomk-201602085206850
http://oddshot.tv/shot/nairomk-2016020853616692
http://oddshot.tv/shot/houseof3000-2016020823853273
http://oddshot.tv/shot/houseof3000-201602083533988

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

TTTTTsd okay let's continue this here so we stop spamming all over the competitive discussion chat.
If you have time, we two can dissect the combos a bit, now that we know that we can't do **** against uSpecial 2 followups.
I rechecked the DI options of uSpecial > ABK > uSpecial > ABK > uAir and you can actually avoid the uAir killing blow if you DI in. So say you face right when you start the combo, your last ABK will go to the left. If your victim DI's the ABK to the right, he won't get hit by any aerials whatsoever.

EDIT1: I'll call the uSpecial > ABK > uSpecial > ABK combo Zig Zag from now on to safe time.
I thing the Zig Zag is especially important to Bayo because it's fairly easy to hit no matter the DI.
The only thing you need to adjust depending on the DI is the first ABK.
If the victim DI's away, you need to do the ABK a little bit sooner, if he DI's down you need to do it immediately.
I think we can safely assume that this goes for any uSpecial 1 > ABK. DI'ing down by the way also avoids the aerial followup after the Zig Zag, or at least with Sheik it does.

 

[TTTTTsd]

TTTTTsd okay let's continue this here so we stop spamming all over the competitive discussion chat.
If you have time, we two can dissect the combos a bit, now that we know that we can't do **** against uSpecial 2 followups.
I rechecked the DI options of uSpecial > ABK > uSpecial > ABK > uAir and you can actually avoid the uAir killing blow if you DI in. So say you face right when you start the combo, your last ABK will go to the left. If your victim DI's the ABK to the right, he won't get hit by any aerials whatsoever.

Good to know! Seems like good DI is gonna be key when playing against Bayo or you're gonna die mad early to stuff.

I'll check the effects of Up/Down DI on Witch Twist (if any) later tonight and post my findings here if I run into anything.

Seems like the big key to kill combos with Bayo is mixing up your ABK timing or confirms so that they DI poorly.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'll take a look at facekick > facekick > uSpecial > uSpecial next, which kills at 30 off the top.
I updated my last post btw, in case you have missed it.

EDIT1: The combo can be avoided by DI'ing away. If you include a fAir 1 after every uSpecial though, you can still connect the whole combo. Basically facekick > facekick > uSpecial > fAir 1 > uSpecial.
This doesn't kill off the top anymore though from base level.
I'll see if it's possible to add more after uSpecial 2.

EDIT2: It's actually possible to add uAir. The combo all together is very fragile though and is avoidable with DI mixups. I have no possibility to test this but I bet smash DI would do wonders here.

 

[Tomo009]

which part is DIable?

I found the witch twist > witch twist works on Sheik up to 62% regardless of DI as long as you jump cancel forwards instead of straight up.

After that though it can be DId away or down and away.


If the Zig Zag combo (which we've just been calling the special combo) doesn't properly combo into uair, it might be better to just do upB2 into uair. At mid-high %s,
upB1 > ABK > dABK > fair1 > upB2 > uair
may be the way to go, but I don't have the game here to test right now, I haven't been able to properly test ABK > dABK yet

 

[Ijuka]

Here is a video I made that contains some combos. They mostly are kill combos that work on FD / omega stages. Some I copied from somewhere, some are my own.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

which part is DIable?

I found the witch twist > witch twist works on Sheik up to 62% regardless of DI as long as you jump cancel forwards instead of straight up.

After that though it can be DId away or down and away.


If the Zig Zag combo (which we've just been calling the special combo) doesn't properly combo into uair, it might be better to just do upB2 into uair. At mid-high %s,
upB1 > ABK > dABK > fair1 > upB2 > uair
may be the way to go, but I don't have the game here to test right now, I haven't been able to properly test ABK > dABK yet

You sure ABK > facekick can combo? Isn't that too slow?

 

[pikazz]

posting here to say some combos thats used.

Witch Twist > ABK > DJC Witch Twist (Reverse) > ABK > UAir (works best at 60~% and perfect OoS punish)
DBK > DBK > WT > DJC WT > UAir (works best at 20-30~%)

those 2 (Death combos) are my BnB and I either trigger them to do a SH or I do a DTilt on them.
there are more combos that are more unusual tho

 

[an1bal]

posting here to say some combos thats used.

Witch Twist > ABK > DJC Witch Twist (Reverse) > ABK > UAir (works best at 60~% and perfect OoS punish)
DBK > DBK > WT > DJC WT > UAir (works best at 20-30~%)

those 2 (Death combos) are my BnB and I either trigger them to do a SH or I do a DTilt on them.
there are more combos that are more unusual tho

I still cant for the life of me connect the DJC WT. how are you canceling? Using X or Y to jump? is it right at the last hit? They always go flying off to far by the time im doing the second wt

 

[pikazz]

I still cant for the life of me connect the DJC WT. how are you canceling? Using X or Y to jump? is it right at the last hit? They always go flying off to far by the time im doing the second wt

I have "R" set to Jump, but I tend to move my finger from "R" to "Y" and having the thumb on "B" and basically time it.
also, do NOT hold B in the first WT as it will make your IASA slower. its better to tapB on WT and time it later.

sadly, this move is kinda easy to DI out of but it should be frame perfect (believe 4 if no/bad DI and 2 with correct DI)

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So uSpecial > uSpecial is true, no matter the DI lol
maximum bull****

 

[Sonicninja115]

The BnB Dtilt-WT-ABK-WT-Uair combo only kills on T&C reliably right?

 

[Ijuka]

Going to such lengths just to be able to do up B instantly after jumping... Tap jump is the way to go.

But anyway, for up B -> up B there is no need to use L or anything, you just buffer the jump and time the B. If you C-stick special, you can even jump forward and make it absolutely trivial.

Thanks for yet another combo route, up B -> up B is amazing in that it allows you to retain your double jump to be able to be used after your second up B.

Example combo:

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Going to such lengths just to be able to do up B instantly after jumping... Tap jump is the way to go.

lolno, z jump is the way to go

 

[Jaxas]

lolno, z jump is the way to go

L-jump would be the best (IMO)...
...if Smash 4 wasn't absolutely ******** about handling triggers

 

[Ijuka]

lolno, z jump is the way to go

I grab with that but yes, that works as well for jump forward -> immediately bair while retaining forward momentum, the thing I need tap jump for. L/R would be best but I hate triggers for jumping.

Combo off forward B or whenever they are too far back to be able to be caught with forward jump fair:

Yet another 0 to death combo vs Sheik:

Now I know at least 3 different routes. It's looking like she can kill Sheik off any hit that leads into fair at any % at this point.

4, that is:

 

[TTTTTsd]

It appears you can dual stick/quarter circle DI out of Witch Twist stuff (I'm not sure which one it was, video didn't state)

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520

This won't do anything to combos that start with Witch Twist but any combo set that has a second Witch Twist will probably be the end of most stuff if people decide to learn how to do this (which they're going to have to do or else they're gonna die/eat a lot more damage than they'd want)

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

It appears you can dual stick/quarter circle DI out of Witch Twist stuff (I'm not sure which one it was, video didn't state)

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520

This won't do anything to combos that start with Witch Twist but any combo set that has a second Witch Twist will probably be the end of most stuff if people decide to learn how to do this (which they're going to have to do or else they're gonna die/eat a lot more damage than they'd want)

God bless this guy, seriously

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

i actually love the fact that you can DI out of a lot of bayos combos. it makes it so that you actually have to read their DI and change your strategy mid combo.

 

[Ijuka]

It appears you can dual stick/quarter circle DI out of Witch Twist stuff (I'm not sure which one it was, video didn't state)

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/697079597616107520

This won't do anything to combos that start with Witch Twist but any combo set that has a second Witch Twist will probably be the end of most stuff if people decide to learn how to do this (which they're going to have to do or else they're gonna die/eat a lot more damage than they'd want)

Learn how to do what exactly? I don't get it. They got sent the normal direction every single time, no? And a second witch twist never was shown either so I at least don't know how I'm supposed to learn where it is going to send them or why follow-ups wouldn't work...

You can up B -> downward forward B, it seems:

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

on the last WTw he was sent behind bayonetta and i think he got out faster than normal