Basic social behavior ruleset for events (girls issue etc.)

[Kadano]

Disclaimer: This is a serious thread and I ask you all to refrain from trolling and writing sarcastic or short / meaningless posts. These can be funny in threads without a goal, but we have a goal here that is improving the tournament experience for everyone and I hope that you will cooperate on this.
This discussion is a fork from a Facebook discussion so that we can have a serious and constructive discussion here on smashboards. Please don’t derail it to the same low niveau of discussion we had in a good portion of posts over there.

Purpose: To agree on a set of liberal rules on how to interact at tournaments and smashfests. Liberal as in only prohibiting actions that definitely compromise another person’s freedom or pursuit of happiness.


Issues that need to be adressed
1. Disrespect to girls
Milktea wrote a blog entry recently in which she made a demand for awareness to the issue that male behavior is discouraging girls from entering the Melee scene.

There was an objection by SchlimmShady who said that the reason why we have so few girls at tournaments lies somewhere else, namely in girls being discouraged to partake in competitive gaming by social pressure.

The only way we can find out for sure is by getting firsthand experience. So if you are a girl, please tell us here whether you go to events less than you’d actually like to because of sexual agression. If you are a man and also have some kind of experience with this, it is appreciated as well.

My personal stance on this is that whenever sexual comments occur or somebody is , all persons present should encourage the victim to speak out if she feels uncomfortable / assaulted by them. If she does so and the offender does not stop or ridicules the victim’s speaking out, he should be kicked from the venue.

Preliminary rules (draft status, very open to suggestions)
1. Treat others with respect
Do not approach another person in a sexual way unless you made sure that she / he is fine with it.
If somebody tells you that you are making him or her uncomfortable with a certain behavior, stop it. Do not argue about it. Exception: your behavior was only a response to a former offense by the opposite party. In that case, conduct a third person who is known to be neutral and considerate and let him sort out the problem.

2. Help the tournament organisators on your own accord
Hosting a tournament is a lot of work with mostly little reward. If you see something that needs to be done, ask a TO if you can help with that. Don’t just sit around and spectate whether they will solve it on their own.

 

[rawrimamonster]

First part of #1 should just be basic human common sense.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel "common sense" is an oxymoron.

 

[Gravitirax]

I have another one: Don't be obnoxious. I can't put into words how important this is and I'm sure people who are can often be the cause for problems at tournaments. Beat someone? Great, now don't get in the other guy's face. They paid $30 to be knocked out by you and they're usually not too thrilled. Instead do a handshake, gg, you know the drill.

EDIT: Share the hype with the crowd too, if you want. Just don't be obnoxious towards the person you just beat. This rule also applies to things other than matches.

 

[Bones0]

3. Keep all sexual advances above the belt.

Disclaimer: This is a serious thread and I ask you all to refrain from trolling and writing sarcastic or short / meaningless posts.

****...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why do we need official rules on how to be a decent human being?

It's not like the TO needs to point to a rule to be able to kick you out. They have the authority either way, and have used it many times in the past (it's universally understood that part of a TO's job is mediating issues between players, sometimes via expulsion).

 

[Johnknight1]

Why do we need official rules on how to be a decent human being?

Never doubt the levels of stupidity the human race can go to.

Just don't.

You'll lose almost every time.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Never doubt the levels of stupidity the FGC can go to.

Just don't.

FTFY. Understand people, I'm not labeling the ENTIRE FGC this but yea. In all the events for different games+melee I've gone to I've rarely had a pleasant encounter with people who identify by the "FGC" label. There's being hype/excited for the event and loving your community n ****...and that's really cool, cuz I love my community too... But then there's being an obnoxious self loving/elitist asswipe, and you just bring down everyone around you by being like that. Sometimes ppl just need to stop and not blurt out things, that's all.

Now on the completely opposite side, thinking from and speaking from the point of view of our comfort zone. Dont read this if you have some kind of hypersensitivity. Just saying...

Spoiler

Women, at the same time we're trying to change ourselves, you have to realize the type of community you're coming into (or for some of you, that you're already in) will not necessarily give a crap what you think about how rude they are, what offends you, what blog/site you'll go and tell if we're "being mean", how many white knights you have, and that shoving an agenda of change into a community full of people in their comfort zone will be like smacking a nest full of hornets with a REALLY big and irritating stick. I know what I just said might be harsh and straight to the point but I refuse to sugarcoat these things. This is a very real thing a lotta female gaming communities are about and actively try and then wonder why it fails when they get backlash calling them lots of obscenities. It's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole instead of trying to patiently find the piece that fits. Some women realize this already and that's great, it's a step forward for them at the same time as the other half tries to move forward.

I'm definitely not saying all female gamers do this, but a lot of them in the past years since about 2006 or so have come in, practically insult the way the community is regardless..and then play victim when their way of enjoying games conflicts with a long established communities ideas. It's like coming into someone elses house, smashin all their stuff with a bat and telling them to get out.

I think it was said best tho that the change will take time and both sides have to realize compromises have to come. Hopefully we can meet somewhere in the middle. I probably stepped on a lotta toes here but that's just the way I am with this community I guess.

 

[Johnknight1]

Another thing we should get ride of the usage of the word "****" or "gay" by the FGC community.

Seriously, why not just invent your own curse words or whatever=???

Flapmingo
Yadookashin
Gregatorator

I invented those all on the fly right now.

We could seriously hold like a contest for which one is best, and use it instead of words like "****" or "gay".

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What's wrong with gay?

**** is triggering I guess (at least in the context of "You got *****!", etc...), but I don't think associating gay with campy/lame gameplay is hurting the LGBT cause LOL

No one mentally associates homosexuals with Jigglypuff (maybe Peach tho)

 

[dRevan64]

Seriously, why not just invent your own curse words or whatever=???

Vernacular does not develop that way unfortunately–despite what 1984 has suggested, deliberately implemented terminology for political correctness' sake is not much more likely to become ubiquitous than organically formed dialects–and attempts to influence it from the top down are generally doomed.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Every woman has the right be treated with respect, courtesy and complete lack of sexual interest.

I thing the "girls issue" has to do with the burden of sexual desire which unfortunately leads to obnoxious behaviour as sexist males are driven by their primitive drives. I say this because woman encounter this kind of behaviour virtually everywhere. which is important to note. I presume that women with lower sexual appeal are less likely to be treated with advances and thus sexist behaviour.

Solutions:

Guys go get some so you don't have to harass fellow smashers and act desperate. Alternatively get some antidepressants to get rid of your libido.

Girls speak up and don't submit to degrading behavior, make your boundaries clear.

To comment on Milkteas blog however I believe the reason there are so few female gamers is simply due to lack of interested which could partially be due to sociocultural reasons.

E:

I'd be interested in hearing some female smashers' opinions as well

 

[SAUS]

Another thing we should get ride of the usage of the word "****" or "gay" by the FGC community.

Seriously, why not just invent your own curse words or whatever=???

Flapmingo
Yadookashin
Gregatorator

I invented those all on the fly right now.

We could seriously hold like a contest for which one is best, and use it instead of words like "****" or "gay".

I think it's easier than this.
Gay = lame or annoying
**** = destruction

GG, done. That is how those words are used in the FGC anyway. I try not to use those words, but I slip sometimes. I think it gets worse when there are more people who play smash around - especially if they are also using those terms.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I think it's easier than this.
Gay = lame or annoying
**** = destruction

GG, done. That is how those words are used in the FGC anyway. I try not to use those words, but I slip sometimes. I think it gets worse when there are more people who play smash around - especially if they are also using those terms.

The problem with changing gay and **** is that, despite ignoring their root or actual meaning, the words have more impact, are easier to say, and grab more attention to the situation itself as they're more expressive of something happening due to societal cues embedded in our brain by the words themselves. The other problem is, the only ones that react to the words or will think to change what they say are the ones sensitive to the words themselves. Others just couldn't be paid to give a ****.

 

[SAUS]

The problem with changing gay and **** is that, despite ignoring their root or actual meaning, the words have more impact, are easier to say, and grab more attention to the situation itself as they're more expressive of something happening due to societal cues embedded in our brain by the words themselves. The other problem is, the only ones that react to the words or will think to change what they say are the ones sensitive to the words themselves. Others just couldn't be paid to give a ****.

Ya, I just meant changing them is easier than making new words I do see what you mean.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Can we instate a player-spectator separation request? I feel a player should be allowed to request that the crowd keeps a reasonable space from them since a lot of people train auditory cues and having people screaming in your ears can be troublesome. I understand that sometimes having friends next to you is big for some players -- that's fine. So my suggestion would be to apply the distance rule on a side basis.

The amount of players that don't shower simply because they don't feel the need to impress women is disgusting. Have some courtesy for your fellow males. And some self respect. Seriously that's gross >_>

We aren't as bad as the Brawl community though if Pound 5 was any indication. That said, that's not saying much. And hygiene isn't really a competition. Or shouldn't be >_>

I feel officials need to be willing to remove people who are very clearly and repeatedly harassing other players in a malicious manner. I understand that sometimes someone has Bermuda DI and that incurs some verbal slurs but I feel there's a line that gets crossed a lot. I definitely feel we give too many people the benefit of the doubt because they're good or been in the community for a long time.

 

[rawrimamonster]

tl;dr let TO's handle player indiscretions until people can be reasonable

I like it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think these situations come up often -- that said, once in a blue moon they do. Since the participants in a conflict these would address are considered equals, we need to turn to a third party to resolve it if it has become clear that conflict resolution is beyond the ability of the two participants. TOs seemed like the logical choice since they are the event directors and staff. It's not perfect, I know -- I'm open to suggestions as to how this could be improved or to another, different solution.

Most of the time I feel this community is reasonable. And that people will respect someone and back off if they're feeling persecuted or targeted. That said, this doesn't always work out so nicely and people disregard limits. As we get bigger, I think formally addressing these issues can discourage newcomers from perpetuating the behaviours or from getting the impression that we don't recognize these issues.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think we can all agree not bathing or using proper deodorant (or variants or alternatives thereof) should be a minimal requirement for everything ever.

What's wrong with gay?

It is essentially used in the English language as a substitute for "lame", thereby inferring that anything "gay", including anyone who happens to be sexually attracted to the same sex is thereby "lame".

I think it's easier than this.
Gay = lame or annoying
**** = destruction

This is another great alternative as well that is acceptable.

However, I feel making up words does grab more attention than even using "gay" or "****". Seriously, "Wombo Combo" anybody=???

GG, done. That is how those words are used in the FGC anyway. I try not to use those words, but I slip sometimes. I think it gets worse when there are more people who play smash around - especially if they are also using those terms.

To let it slip is one thing, and is easily forgivable.

To hear it over and over and over especially when someone asks you to stop it another.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It is essentially used in the English language as a substitute for "lame", thereby inferring that anything "gay", including anyone who happens to be sexually attracted to the same sex is thereby "lame".

What about the definition of gay that's synonymous with happy?
What about ******? If I say that to a homosexual am I calling them a bundle of sticks? Perhaps a cigarette?

The same word can have different meanings, no reason to infer anything.

 

[Johnknight1]

What about the definition of gay that's synonymous with happy?
What about ******? If I say that to a homosexual am I calling them a bundle of sticks? Perhaps a cigarette?

The same word can have different meanings, no reason to infer anything.

"he's playing gay" is not synonymous with "he's playing happy".

It's synonymous with "he's playing lame", "he's playing awful", or "he's playing boring".

While it does work that way (like "it's a gay day" being "it's a happy day") with words other than lame, awful, or boring, in the context of fighting games in that situation, it does not, especially in FGC scenario contexts.

In FGC tournaments, events, and commentary, "gay" practically always means lame, awful, or boring, or a similar meaning words, which, again, is slander against the word gay and gay people.

So yeah, saying "it's a gay day" outside, "I'm gonna go outside and smoke a ******", or "I'm feeling sunshiny and gay" is okay, but saying "wow, you're playing gay" isn't. #My2Cents

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That makes absolutely no sense, just so you know.

Why does gay only connect to homosexuality when it's used to mean lame? Lol, sounds like you're the homophobe here, I'm saying there's no reason to make that connection.

 

[La_Popo]

"Treat others how you would want to be treated" is a pretty decent all-around rule, just remember that you want to have a good time, and your opponents also want to have a good time.

 

[Syrup on da sid]

On the subject of "gay" and "****" while i don't personally use either of those words anymore, it is important to understand the distinction between their actual meaning(s) and their intended meanings. Just because someone calls something "gay" doesn't mean they are thinking "this is stupid because it's comparable to homosexuality and homosexuality is stupid", these people are simply thinking "this is stupid." In the context of the sentence you find the definition of the word. While i can understand why people get upset about it, it is so ridiculous to make such a huge deal out of it when they are using the word to describe something completely different from what the people offended by the word interpret it as. It isn't a derogatory word for homosexuality, it simply means annoying (at least in the context of the gaming community).

 

[dRevan64]

The amount of players that don't shower simply because they don't feel the need to impress women is disgusting. Have some courtesy for your fellow males. And some self respect. Seriously that's gross >_>

We aren't as bad as the Brawl community though if Pound 5 was any indication. That said, that's not saying much. And hygiene isn't really a competition. Or shouldn't be >_>

Apex was my first multiple day tournament and the contrast in terms of stench between day 1 and day 2 was probably the worst part of the entire thing. Oh my lord do 1000 sweaty bodies create an odor. Part of it wasn't anyone's fault really–that many people in one room is inevitably going to be hot and sweaty and awful–but bathing definitely would've helped.

But yeah it was definitely exclusively the brawl players. Melee players, after all, are ubermenschen with amazing dexterity, ridiculously swift minds, and impeccable hygiene. And most of them are built like greek statues.

 

[Kadano]

Part of it wasn't anyone's fault really–that many people in one room is inevitably going to be hot and sweaty and awful–but bathing definitely would've helped.

Apart from wearing proper deodorants that last at least 3 days (aluminium-based ones are trash), a “no shoes within the venue” policy might help too. In case you’re not that kind of flopmericans who think that naked feet are gross, lol.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

The amount of players that don't shower simply because they don't feel the need to impress women is disgusting. Have some courtesy for your fellow males. And some self respect. Seriously that's gross >_>

I have never had an issue with this, but granted some people have better sense of smell by nature so they suffer the most.

I have a effective although unethical solution for this: public humiliation.

"Dude you smell like ****, go take a shower please"

The issue is that most people don't have balls to say this kind of stuff to anyone because it's offensive and hurtful.
BUT it would be effective. Even the people who don't care that much would feel embarrassed after few of these kinds
of remarks.

TOs could also partake on informing people to shower, although imagining the scenario I find this idea to be ridiculous.
You don't necessarily need public announcements ("Could the people who smell like **** please go take a shower immediately, thank you")
but you could make some friendly posters:

"Maintain good hygiene. Not for the girls. For yourself. And everybody else.
(including Kirbykaze who thinks you're gross)"

 

[Nicco]

I don't think Milktea complained about people approaching women in a sexual way.

It's the subtle stuff, that's important. Like, she thinks that we are sexists if we sandbag against a woman... How the hell do we solve that?! Will sandbagging be banned? Eh nvm...

tbh... I think the issue is already more or less solved

now that we all know about it, we will propably all think twice about the way we act around them

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I made the mistake of taking my then GF to a tourney a few years back. It was more of a FGC tourney than a smash one since it was around the time MvC3 came out. She sat down to play and like 3 guys immediately offered to teach her the basics of the game (Even though she already knew how to play). After that, we entered Melee doubles and got 3rd. I heard some remarks like "Yo imagine if that guy had teamed with a good player?!?!" This was coming from casuals/FGC dudes who did not know anything about competitive melee... The issue is not "solved" as some might think and it's not exclusive to the smash scene.

 

[dRevan64]

Apart from wearing proper deodorants that last at least 3 days (aluminium-based ones are trash), a “no shoes within the venue” policy might help too. In case you’re not that kind of flopmericans who think that naked feet are gross, lol.

Yeah, good luck ever getting americans to take their shoes off in a public place. Plus I can guarantee at a bigger event someone's gonna wear expensive kicks or something and get them stolen.

"Yo imagine if that guy had teamed with a good player?!?!"

You misheard, they were talking about your girlfriend

 

[TobiasXK]

On the subject of "gay" and "****" while i don't personally use either of those words anymore, it is important to understand the distinction between their actual meaning(s) and their intended meanings.

since this is such a common argument in any discussion of use of potentially offensive language, i feel like it should be pointed out that everyone arguing against the use of terms like "gay" and "****" understands the (usual) disconnect between the speaker's intent and the offensive evocation. however, in almost any matter, it's pretty well-established that to a society consequence and intention don't hold the same weight; consequences matter more (on an individual level, there are differing philosophical views of course, but we're looking at Smash community issues, and they should be treated as dealing with a community or society) and intentions don't absolve a person. and there's no reason for this issue to be looked at any differently. even if the intention isn't to specifically offend someone or to passively contribute to a subconscious social association of "gay = bad", that's the result. is our desire to use these words so strong we would choose to take that result?

and this bit is sort of tangential, but i am actually really curious about the perceived importance of these particular words ("gay" and "****") as items in the Smasher/gamer lexicon—because there is a significant sect that is adamant about needing to be able to use these words. i would be very surprised if we called Captain Jack "Captain ***" at Apex 2012 like was done at TG6. and i'd be very surprised if most Smashers would be totally cool with someone looking at MDZ going 2-0 then losing 3 in a row at Apex 2014 in a set that should have been a bo3 and saying "Zeb got jewed". but it seems like the many many Smashers really strongly oppose this admonishment of saying "gay" and "****", and linguistically i'd be interested in a perspective on that that isn't just conservatism or a fallacious #freedomofspeech shoutout.

another aspect of this issue is that voices in the community have been calling for a reduction of the use of these kinds of terms. we have discussions here and in the MIOM Facebook group, it comes up in stream chat during every tournament i've seen in the past year, it comes up in person at events. so we have this situation where people are being asked not to use these terms because they can be offensive and have a negative social impact, and are refusing. this is problematic even for the already flimsy defense of "not bad intentions", because even if the intent is still not to specifically offend someone or to passively contribute to a subconscious social association of "gay = bad" it is now becoming an intentional, voluntary and repeated disregard of significant wishes for respectfulness within the community.

i think really the important lack of understanding here is of the historical context and significance. since we're a part of this chunk of history, it's hard to look at it from a scope that's bigger than individual experience, but there is a broader view nonetheless, and it's important information if we want to really understand why people consider this a big issue. the sense of "gay" that we're using here as slang to mean "lame" is only known to have been attested 35ish years ago and in notable use for about 25, which isn't really long enough to have lost the charge of its etymological connection to the sense of "homosexual"; the way language works, this will happen eventually, but it clearly hasn't happened yet. also still very young and current is the ongoing struggle for gay rights and equality and social acceptance. it feels easy and totally reasonable to say "everyone knows that's not what i mean when i use 'gay' as an insult", since we may be personally accepting of homosexuality and the slang use is so common within the sphere that we're dealing with (the Smash community or FGC or gaming community or whatever)—but in a bigger context is it really that obvious? current (2010-2013) polls on the matter indicate that social "acceptance" of homosexuality (which isn't even quite the same as a person's sexuality being a non-issue or unremarkable feature) in the US is somewhere around 60-65%, which is far from unanimous (and even looking only at people under 30, the numbers end up about the same from what i've seen). the idea that something is "obviously" not offensive only even approaches validity in a society where the referent issue has been moved past and separated by time and wherein the vast majority of people are on the same side and will have consistent and predictable feelings and reactions.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I just don't want to be censored dude.

 

[dRevan64]

another aspect of this issue is that voices in the community have been calling for a reduction of the use of these kinds of terms. we have discussions here and in the MIOM Facebook group, it comes up in stream chat during every tournament i've seen in the past year, it comes up in person at events. so we have this situation where people are being asked not to use these terms because they can be offensive and have a negative social impact, and are refusing. this is problematic even for the already flimsy defense of "not bad intentions", because even if the intent is still not to specifically offend someone or to passively contribute to a subconscious social association of "gay = bad" it is now becoming an intentional, voluntary and repeated disregard of significant wishes for respectfulness within the community.

This entire post was really interesting and detailed and I feel that should be complimented. I can't do the entire body of it justice in this response but I think that's alright since a very large part of it is more explanatory than anything else, so this is the section I'm choosing to respond to just because this idea of an attempted top-down modification of vernacular is something I've seen in a lot of contexts. Notable and personal examples exist in schooling for young children (certainly American education anyway, I couldn't tell you how much the rest of the world does this) where impolitic vocabulary is often met with a talking to, a parent teacher meeting or some other dubiously effective deterrent. Policies that attempt to refocus language use that start from the top–in the school example the top is authority figures, for a community such as this one the top is individuals like Prog, Scar, and other prominent faces of melee–often end there as well. The problem with these methods is really that when these authority figures decree something, good intentions or otherwise, there is a significant segment of the community that feels marginalized in response (especially ironic when you consider the decree exists to stop a feeling of marginalization in the first place). These community members are also very likely to continue saying what they damn well please and perhaps even saying more of it. I think grim tuesday may inadvertently function here as an example of my point. Claims of censorship are often indicative of a feeling of impotence or marginalization, and they're reasonably valid. It is extremely unpleasant to feel as though by order of higher authority, one cannot speak their mind, even to say puff's bair is gay as hell. In the same way that it can be seen as disrespectful to LGBT individuals to use gay derisively, it can be interpreted as culturally disrespectful to attempt to get a community that grew up with HMW's off-color commentary to change how it expresses itself.

I have to admit here that I'm biased–I've been calling things gay since before I knew a damn thing about atypical sexuality–but the way I understand it, someone in this situation must be offended and marginalized. If, in the scales of offense, you conclude it is better for foul-mouthed smashers to be offended than LGBT smashers, then it is entirely understandable as to why you might want to continue with these policies. But if you're like me and you don't feel that either of those parties is deserving of special consideration decreed from on high, you're going to err on the side of (relatively) free speech and let me describe PS transformations as being really ****ing gay.

And in any case, there are more effective ways of changing speech, they just take longer to see widespread results. D1 lacerating his vocal chords yelling destruction at rom 6 (and in other places) was ridiculously powerful. Tons of people saw that set, and as a result destruction is seeing real usage where once we might've said *****. All this, just by virtue of memetics. No decree was required, D1 didn't need to instruct everyone to be sensitive and use destruction instead of *****, it began to occur precisely because he incorporated it organically. That is a much, much better (although obviously sneakier) way of influencing how people communicate, and it's one nobody can take offense to.

The final comment I have to make about this is a distinctly personal one, so while it can mostly be taken with a grain of salt it should be treated as relevant, and believe me I wouldn't bring this up if it weren't. My handle (hasn't been dRevan64 for years, old accounts suck) is SF, which stands for subjectivefag (this name was given to me in a conversation I had about music once, but it would be dishonest to say that both parts of it don't apply). Due to a minor misunderstanding a few months ago I accidentally offended someone else as a result of my name and he got mad at me as a result. This was 100% deserved, I'd inadvertently conveyed the idea that I was using the latter part as a slur for this individual which clearly was not my intent. At no other point however has anybody been incensed by this name, in fact some people find it entertaining. It won't surprise anyone to realize that is a scenario where an offensive term is treated as being acceptable when it comes across as self-deprecating, when a representative of the group it's said to marginalize adopts it for their own use. This (as a general principle, not necessarily referring to the people mentioned) is unambiguous hypocrisy. A word varies in cruelty only based on the intent with which it is spoken, not based on the personal traits of its speaker. I do not gain any authority or greater right to use the word ****** just because it may be said to describe me, and that word should not gain or lose any of its perceived bile when it comes from my mouth. The word ****** is hurtful when it is spoken with the aim to degrade, but in those scenarios it is exactly as hurtful to decry someone as a degenerate homosexual, a pair of words with, at the time of this writing, no taboo associated with their use. That's the kind of thing that should be discouraged–cruelty, not language which is loosely associated with it.

P.S. shoutouts to JB's line "****-taking individual"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm not working on some base-level desire to regain my autonomy or the acceptance of my peers here bro

I couldn't care less about dropping gay and **** from my vernacular (I already have for the most part)
I just find fault with the arguments presented

 

[dRevan64]

I'm not working on some base-level desire to regain my autonomy or the acceptance of my peers here bro

I couldn't care less about dropping gay and **** from my vernacular (I already have for the most part)
I just find fault with the arguments presented

Let me appropriate your perspective for the purposes of bolstering my argument goddammit stop having your own opinions.

No but really it was just an example, obviously I don't know you and I can't claim to know how exactly you feel, you were just presenting something that is reminiscent of what I described. Sorry if that was unclear.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Quite alright, I intended that post to be more of a clarification than a rebuttal or whatever