Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

[SoccerStar9001]

Phew guys, crisis averted. All we have to do is do absolutely nothing until the Bayonetta player screws up. It kinda sucks that if she gets a percent lead she gets to time us out for free, but them's the breaks.

Or grab her...........

 

[Charey]

One thing about Bayonetta that make seem stronger than she is, you need to lab against her to stand any chance at all.

No other character requires labbing to fight at a basic level, it helps but you can learn most of how to fight other characters just by playing friendlies and lab DI later but Bayo will destroy a player who hasn't labbed enough in an instant.

I do have to thank Spain because I wouldn't have spent the proper time to lab against a Bayo player without all the talk about bans.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

One thing about Bayonetta that make seem stronger than she is, you need to lab against her to stand any chance at all.

No other character requires labbing to fight at a basic level, it helps but you can learn most of how to fight other characters just by playing friendlies and lab DI later but Bayo will destroy a player who hasn't labbed enough in an instant.

I agree, also find the reverse true.
I really had to lab Bayonetta myself so I know her combo starters and how to avoid SD.
It took me a good week to start being decent. She is pretty complex for both sides.

 

[Darksydaz]

"To avoid witch time, only attack her when she's has some form of lag, and only do guaranteed follow-ups"

Phew guys, crisis averted. All we have to do is do absolutely nothing until the Bayonetta player screws up. It kinda sucks that if she gets a percent lead she gets to time us out for free, but them's the breaks.

Or Bait out options, tho that is what some will take from this. Not bait out her witch time, Not not be unpredictable with your combos that aren't true, it's... don't hit her at all or you'll lose the match. And that will be a sad misconception that will appear when people start commenting about how Beefy Dood's Video isn't true in some capacity.

I agree, also find the reverse true.
I really had to lab Bayonetta myself so I know her combo starters and how to avoid SD.
It took me a good week to start being decent. She is pretty complex for both sides.

Agreed, took me a minute to get used to using her Witch Twist instead of Jumping and her ABK as recovery options. Even now I'm only decent with her and really am trying to learn the match-ups more with her (I lack some fundamentals in SM4SH) and how to best tackle them. I know some of her 0 - Death Combos, but I also know how punishing it is when you mess up (I mistimed one and dABK off the stage into oblivion). Some of her combos are difficult to perform if you don't go into auto sometimes. I'm still trying to rid myself of this "rushdown" shiek style and play her like the bully she is...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I share no strong opinion on her. Mostly I have been seeing how things play out and what to do against her. Additionally I have been looking into how the backlash had gone with this given how much of a bad stigma she has right now and how this is affecting attendance.

I am thinking about secondaring her just so I can learn her and see how to play against her better, I won't use her in tournament because I'd rather play a blue aura dog or a big fire breathing flying dragon.

I do think there is a lot of knee jerk reacting still going on with her and it would be better to lab her out more. It's not confirmed or deconfirmed she is worse than MK or ICs. She is like playing against ICs, but I do find her to be way less annoying to play against since you can actually shield against her and I don't need to platform camp/switch to Peach just to win.

Most of my thoughts here, I would rather see more data on her and see if people can implement what the new beefy smash dudes posted as a video today.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The (un)competitive scene in St. Louis, my home scene, has banned Bayo. Let's watch the scrub dominoes begin to fall...

Lmao, get ****ed Cook. Pretty much every top player besides you supported the ban. Even SoJo supported the ban, and he's the only Bayo main in the city.

Oh, and to respond to your allegations in the FB group that Bayonetta didn't get a probationary period on release, she definitely did. People realized that she was busted when SoJo won a tournament literally two days after picking her up.

Thought i'd post this here:

How to beat Bayonetta

I'm skeptical of any videos which claim to give the secret to beating Bayonetta ever since Mekos made that "How to DI Bayonetta's combos" video and then got trounced by a Bayonetta player at Pound.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I'm skeptical of any videos which claim to give the secret to beating Bayonetta ever since Mekos made that "How to DI Bayonetta's combos" video and then got trounced by a Bayonetta player at Pound.

It isn't gonna give you a 100% win rate, but it will definitely increase it if you can properly follow their advice.
Don't know who Mekos is, but it isn't likely he claimed he can't lose to Bayonetta.

 

[cFive]

"To avoid witch time, only attack her when she's has some form of lag, and only do guaranteed follow-ups"

Phew guys, crisis averted. All we have to do is do absolutely nothing until the Bayonetta player screws up. It kinda sucks that if she gets a percent lead she gets to time us out for free, but them's the breaks.

You could say the same about every character with a counter, right? With perfect reaction, you can never approach a character with a counter!
The big problem with bayo is that hitting the counter only once is so extremely rewarding, that's why you have to be extra careful (but not never attack)...

 

[Ninety]

Also that WT, unlike other counters, doesn't just screw you over if you launch a telegraphed smash or something of the sort -- a single otherwise-safe jab or even short-range projectile can get you punished worse than charging an fsmash into Corrin's counter.

 

[adom4]

You could say the same about every character with a counter, right? With perfect reaction, you can never approach a character with a counter!
The big problem with bayo is that hitting the counter only once is so extremely rewarding, that's why you have to be extra careful (but not never attack)...

Doesn't help that she has the least laggy counter in the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Shouldn't it also be noted that Witch Time counters even unblockable attacks? Of course, it's no good against grab attacks.

 

[GeneralLedge]

One thing about Bayonetta that make seem stronger than she is, you need to lab against her to stand any chance at all.

No other character requires labbing to fight at a basic level, it helps but you can learn most of how to fight other characters just by playing friendlies and lab DI later but Bayo will destroy a player who hasn't labbed enough in an instant.

This makes me wonder if it's a Bayo Problem(tm) or just the rest of the cast being really braindead simple.

Which isn't intended to be taken as an insult to any group of players, it's just a fascinating note that a genre that should be some percent 'strategy', lacks "needing" a strategy in most other situations. Or, any strategy you do need is reflective of your opponent's play style and not the character they're using.

I wonder, in hindsight, if Villager's Trip Sapling isn't actually that big a deal, but people are too reluctant to learn the strategy to beat it. So we banned it instead.

 

[Funbot28]

The only problem i have with nerfing Bayonetta is that if they get rid of her linking aerial specials then the character does not have much to offer compared to others, since she has a slightly poor neutral and not very great frame data. If she does get nerfed (which is almost guaranteed), then they wiuld need to give her more options overall imo. Examples being giving her grab combos and better tilts and movements. I dont want the character tk be completely killed.

 

[Darksydaz]

If you are thinking they are gonna nerf Bayonetta and kill what makes her "Bayonetta" then I think you should rethink that. The changes they made in this patch reduced damage and Knockback of smash attacks, increased witch time cooldown while reducing witch time duration slightly, and increasing the duration on heel slide by frames (making it easier to punish). Killing her combo links would kill her as Bayonetta. She is annoying to fight against only if you rely on flowchart play. Bayonetta DEMANDS mixing it up...

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I really wish people would stop saying Bayonetta has a terrible neutral game.

I wonder, in hindsight, if Villager's Trip Sapling isn't actually that big a deal, but people are too reluctant to learn the strategy to beat it. So we banned it instead.

Considering how well Villager can zone without it, having it just put Villager way over the top. I do not miss those days.

 

[Darksydaz]

I really wish people would stop saying Bayonetta has a terrible neutral game.

But she does have a terrible Neutral Game. She has Aerial Mobility, but her neutral game isn't too strong. She has Witch Twist and Witch Time, Bad frame data, Bullet Climax (that doesn't cover as much as Shiek Needles), Bad Roll and Laggy Spotdodge. Why do you think her Neutral Game is anything but terrible?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I really wish people would stop saying Bayonetta has a terrible neutral game.

Even BSD has said Bayonetta has a poor neutral because lack of good approach options.
If you disagree, bring up counter points.

 

[Buddhahobo]

I'm skeptical of any videos which claim to give the secret to beating Bayonetta ever since Mekos made that "How to DI Bayonetta's combos" video and then got trounced by a Bayonetta player at Pound.

That's...not really an accurate portrayal of Mekos vs Pink Fresh.

It also doesn't help that Mekos, a Lucas main, is finally coming back into the scene from the Brawl days and has internet warrior disease atm, and Pink Fresh was, similarly, a Lucas main.

 

[TsarofToon]

Let's settle things down abit and look at the facts. Bayonetta isn't as broken as Meta Knight, but she still is a good Character. Her Combos lead to deadly 0 to deaths, even with DI (Thanks MySmashCorner) and she has no risk for doing them. If she misses the Downward side B, the grounded hitbox is still enough that you have to wait for the animation to basically be done. Her Up B is what make the Combos go so high, and if she launches you far enough, she can land without any sort of punishment for the long combo whatsoever. Why people want her banned is not for how strong she it, but how she poisons the community.

In ZeRos video, he tells us about a player in Japan, who picked up Bayo, used her for one week, then went on to win a major event in Japan. No other character is like that. Now what does this mean? It means this character carries the player, by giving to player fast, risk free options that come with little to no punishment for missing of failing them. It doesn't take much work to be good with this character, cause she is carrying you. This in a way poisons the players, and makes the game less fun for them. If your opponent doesn't have to try that hard to win, and doesn't put in the effort to win, then why should you? It makes the game less fun, cause you know if you make one mistake, get read once and get Witch Timed, your done, and all you can do it hope your DI saves you. I have watched many videos on tournaments by MVG, and almost always see Saj, a Bayonetta player, be in grand finals.

And for you Bayo mains out there that say she isn't a problem, think again. Professional players and many other people disagree. You are very oblivious to your characters strengths and you only know her weaknesses. I know her strengths, and they definitely outweigh her weaknesses. If you say to "get gud" or "just adapt", do keep in mind that as we adapt, so will Bayonetta mains. Styles can easily change, and I hope, if anything, your character gets nerfed to bottom tier, so she won't be a problem anymore. For the community, and for the Competitive scene. Hate if you will, but results in tournament definitely say your character is better than you think.

 

[Ghidorah14]

In ZeRos video, he tells us about a player in Japan, who picked up Bayo, used her for one week, then went on to win a major event in Japan. No other character is like that. Now what does this mean? It means this character carries the player, by giving to player fast, risk free options that come with little to no punishment for missing of failing them.

So what you're saying is, that if you play a top tier character that people have very little matchup knowlegde against...you'll do really well?

Thats not an argument for banning or toxicity.

It doesn't take much work to be good with this character, cause she is carrying you.

Everyone is carried by their character. ZeRo is carried by sheik and diddy, dabuz is carried by rosa, and esam is carried by pikachu.

Again, this is not an argument for banning or toxicity.

This in a way poisons the players, and makes the game less fun for them.

I can say the same for vilager, cloud, rosa, and sheik. "Less fun for others" has never been an issue in smash before now.

Not an argument for banning or toxicity.

If your opponent doesn't have to try that hard to win, and doesn't put in the effort to win, then why should you?

So people should just give up, not bother learning the matchup, and ban a character on the premise that she is "easy?"

This just sounds like another excuse to skip the whole "adapting" bit and go straight to banning.

And for you Bayo mains out there that say she isn't a problem, think again. Professional players and many other people disagree. You are very oblivious to your characters strengths and you only know her weaknesses. I know her strengths, and they definitely outweigh her weaknesses.

I think bayo mains would know more about their character than people who just sit on their ass and watch tournament videos on youtube.

If you say to "get gud" or "just adapt", do keep in mind that as we adapt, so will Bayonetta mains.

Yeah. Thats how a metagame works.

Styles can easily change, and I hope, if anything, your character gets nerfed to bottom tier, so she won't be a problem anymore. For the community, and for the Competitive scene. Hate if you will, but results in tournament definitely say your character is better than you think.

Oh look, a reason to not give two flips about anything you say past this point.

Thats some serious scrub talk.

 

[NotLiquid]

In ZeRos video, he tells us about a player in Japan, who picked up Bayo, used her for one week, then went on to win a major event in Japan. No other character is like that.

This is flawed point to base the rest of your argument on if, word for word, that is a point of contention.

The main reason no other character would be like that in your comparison is because usually most majors for games that have DLC content tend to have a cut off date of one month or more for DLC characters since it decreases the chances of players coasting off of MU inexperience. Allowing a character in early is more of a standard for regionals and plenty of Smash DLC newcomers have managed to take surprise top placings in that context. This is why first week results aren't all that super important in the grand scheme of things. The continued monthly trendings in majors for characters like Cloud and Bayonetta who come out and prove themselves to be very strong characters however, is.

Stylescan easily change, and I hope, if anything, your character gets nerfed to bottom tier, so she won't be a problem anymore.

No matter what your stance on a character is, this is a terrible mindset to have and a real example of the kind of toxic attitude the community should be avoiding.

I abhorred pre-patch Sheik, Rosalina and vanilla Diddy (in spite of Diddy being my Brawl main and generally one of my favorite characters ever). That doesn't mean I would ever want these characters to be bottom of the barrel. No character deserves that kind of distinction, for the sake of the game's health, variety and everyone who likes to play as those characters on a higher level. The more characters we have in the game that are balanced and can contend on a higher level, the healthier of a game we get.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a nerf to Bayonetta, but there is nothing wrong with her being good either. She just needs to be less stupid.

 

[sedrf]

@KuroganeHammer
Did you know after using Witch Time once it takes 1250 frames to recover to full strength? Pre-patch it was 625 frames...

For anybody complaining about wt. It could be worse.
To be honest it seems like that guy was making a more off handed comment ,but whatever.
At this point this thread should just be closed down until around GetonMyLevel or ceo start again

 

[GeneralLedge]

If you say to "get gud" or "just adapt", do keep in mind that as we adapt, so will Bayonetta mains.

I'd like to point out that this idea is partly flawed, in the respect that many characters have different skill ceilings, and the way the players themselves use the character often determines how well they do.

A Bayonetta may very well "get gud" alongside any antagonist, but where does the skill ceiling lie? Is it assumed that the ceiling is infinite?

What happens if the current bread-and-butter combos encompass the entire depth of the character, and Bayonetta can't "get gud" or "adapt" any further?

These are questions we can't possibly know the answer to yet, and should take years before we fully understand it.


Incidentally, I wonder how long it'll be before we see some TAS-level WiiU gameplay. In an environment where characters are pushed to the greatest depth of their frame data, does Bayonetta still win?

 

[TsarofToon]

I'd like to point out that this idea is partly flawed, in the respect that many characters have different skill ceilings, and the way the players themselves use the character often determines how well they do.

A Bayonetta may very well "get gud" alongside any antagonist, but where does the skill ceiling lie? Is it assumed that the ceiling is infinite?

What happens if the current bread-and-butter combos encompass the entire depth of the character, and Bayonetta can't "get gud" or "adapt" any further?

These are questions we can't possibly know the answer to yet, and should take years before we fully understand it.


Incidentally, I wonder how long it'll be before we see some TAS-level WiiU gameplay. In an environment where characters are pushed to the greatest depth of their frame data, does Bayonetta still win?

This is flawed point to base the rest of your argument on if, word for word, that is a point of contention.

The main reason no other character would be like that in your comparison is because usually most majors for games that have DLC content tend to have a cut off date of one month or more for DLC characters since it decreases the chances of players coasting off of MU inexperience. Allowing a character in early is more of a standard for regionals and plenty of Smash DLC newcomers have managed to take surprise top placings in that context. This is why first week results aren't all that super important in the grand scheme of things. The continued monthly trendings in majors for characters like Cloud and Bayonetta who come out and prove themselves to be very strong characters however, is.



No matter what your stance on a character is, this is a terrible mindset to have and a real example of the kind of toxic attitude the community should be avoiding.

I abhorred pre-patch Sheik, Rosalina and vanilla Diddy (in spite of Diddy being my Brawl main and generally one of my favorite characters ever). That doesn't mean I would ever want these characters to be bottom of the barrel. No character deserves that kind of distinction, for the sake of the game's health, variety and everyone who likes to play as those characters on a higher level. The more characters we have in the game that are balanced and can contend on a higher level, the healthier of a game we get.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a nerf to Bayonetta, but there is nothing wrong with her being good either. She just needs to be less stupid.

So what you're saying is, that if you play a top tier character that people have very little matchup knowlegde against...you'll do really well?

Thats not an argument for banning or toxicity.



Everyone is carried by their character. ZeRo is carried by sheik and diddy, dabuz is carried by rosa, and esam is carried by pikachu.

Again, this is not an argument for banning or toxicity.



I can say the same for vilager, cloud, rosa, and sheik. "Less fun for others" has never been an issue in smash before now.

Not an argument for banning or toxicity.



So people should just give up, not bother learning the matchup, and ban a character on the premise that she is "easy?"

This just sounds like another excuse to skip the whole "adapting" bit and go straight to banning.



I think bayo mains would know more about their character than people who just sit on their *** and watch tournament videos on youtube.



Yeah. Thats how a metagame works.



Oh look, a reason to not give two flips about anything you say past this point.

Thats some serious scrub talk.

It's not really about beating the character, it's more of having fun fighting her. It isn't fun at all, cause you know what one mistake, and your at the top of the stage. It's why professionals go to tournaments, for FUN. I'm fine with Bayo mains, it's your desicion. Yet, you can have all the fun you want, winning tournaments. But the people you are fighting will be the ones who suffer. Like I said, they want to have fun, but can't have fun if they worry too much about making ONE mistake. It's like ZeRo, how before MLG, he talked about having to be perfect, every moment of everyday. That's basically what you have to be against Bayo. Perfect, no flaws, nothing wrong. Just perfect. No one can be perfect. I say your character should be needed because of how it is poisoning the community, by starting arguments like these. You really can't change my mind. And if you haven't, watch ZeRos video. He gets more complicated than what I am trying to say. But overall, it's how she takes the fun out of playing. How she causes debates and arguments. It's how she poisons this community, as much, or even worse, than Meta Knight in the Brawl community. Only time will tell what will happen, and even as you argue at every little point of everything I say, keep others in mind, and not just how it affects you and you only. One more thing, yes, characters can carry if used correctly, but work is still involved, especially Shiek now, due to the nerfs she got. Yet what makes them fun to watch is how they can change. No two fights in Smash are the same, even when Sheik dominated the meta. But when I watch Bayo, its the same looking Combos, over and over, nearly always resulting in death. That's why I believe low tiers are better than high tiers, cause they can be a lot more hype and fun to watch that high tiers (like Bayonetta). Do keep in mind that my decision is made, and I don't intend on dealing with anymore arguing on this topic. I will watch passively, waiting for the day the decision is made. You can argue about this all day long, but I won't. I refuse to be poisoned by her presense in the competitive scene, and will let the real pros decide.
(P.S People who want to focus on beating her, Beefy Smash Doods made a video in how to beat her, I would recommend watching it)

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Let time tell. If she's considered broken now, she'll likely get banned because of exploits or abilities players might discover.
At the same time, players may find a way to destroy her.

 

[NotLiquid]

It's not really about beating the character, it's more of having fun fighting her. It isn't fun at all, cause you know what one mistake, and your at the top of the stage. It's why professionals go to tournaments, for FUN. I'm fine with Bayo mains, it's your desicion. Yet, you can have all the fun you want, winning tournaments. But the people you are fighting will be the ones who suffer. Like I said, they want to have fun, but can't have fun if they worry too much about making ONE mistake. It's like ZeRo, how before MLG, he talked about having to be perfect, every moment of everyday. That's basically what you have to be against Bayo. Perfect, no flaws, nothing wrong. Just perfect. No one can be perfect. I say your character should be needed because of how it is poisoning the community, by starting arguments like these. You really can't change my mind. And if you haven't, watch ZeRos video. He gets more complicated than what I am trying to say. But overall, it's how she takes the fun out of playing. How she causes debates and arguments. It's how she poisons this community, as much, or even worse, than Meta Knight in the Brawl community. Only time will tell what will happen, and even as you argue at every little point of everything I say, keep others in mind, and not just how it affects you and you only.
(P.S People who want to focus on beating her, Beefy Smash Doods made a video in how to beat her, I would recommend watching it)

You seem really obsessed with bringing up ZeRo. This thread has already lingered on long enough intermittently dissecting ZeRo's video for it to be brought back up as a topic yet again because really there's nothing left to be gained from that video.

But like you say, if anyone of us aren't going to "change your mind" in how this issue is currently perceived then there's really no point in having this discussion. Quite frankly it makes me increasingly convinced that by the day this becomes less of a discussion this community is actually capable of having.

 

[Ghidorah14]

It's not really about beating the character, it's more of having fun fighting her. It isn't fun at all, cause you know what one mistake, and your at the top of the stage. It's why professionals go to tournaments, for FUN.

Again, "fun" is not a bannable offensive. Fun is subjective, and right now, you're presuming to speak for the entirety of the smash community.

Rosalina, villager and cloud are not fun to fight in the slightest, but that doesnt mean it's ok to ban them from local or even regional tournaments.

And BTW, professional players also go to tournaments for the MONEY. Pretty big incentive to pick the best character in the game and win that cash prize.

I'm fine with Bayo mains, it's your desicion. Yet, you can have all the fun you want, winning tournaments. But the people you are fighting will be the ones who suffer. Like I said, they want to have fun, but can't have fun if they worry too much about making ONE mistake.

I dont think rosa mains give two flips about making a match unfun for their opponent. So why should bayo mains?

It's like ZeRo, how before MLG, he talked about having to be perfect, every moment of everyday. That's basically what you have to be against Bayo. Perfect, no flaws, nothing wrong. Just perfect. No one can be perfect. I say your character should be needed because of how it is poisoning the community, by starting arguments like these. You really can't change my mind. And if you haven't, watch ZeRos video. He gets more complicated than what I am trying to say.

Read as "i am a sheep and follow zero's word as law. zero said it, so it must be true. i am totally not using his words as a crutch for my arguments."

But overall, it's how she takes the fun out of playing. How she causes debates and arguments. It's how she poisons this community, as much, or even worse, than Meta Knight in the Brawl community. Only time will tell what will happen, and even as you argue at every little point of everything I say, keep others in mind, and not just how it affects you and you only.
(P.S People who want to focus on beating her, Beefy Smash Doods made a video in how to beat her, I would recommend watching it)

I should've just taken my own advice and not paid attention to you after that "i want her nerfed to bottom tier" crap.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

People who want to focus on beating her, Beefy Smash Doods made a video in how to beat her, I would recommend watching it

Problem is, a Bayonetta could possibly take measures against that video. That's what this thread is for. Only smart Bayonetta players would be here.

 

[TsarofToon]

I kn

People who want to focus on beating her, Beefy Smash Doods made a video in how to beat her, I would recommend watching it

Problem is, a Bayonetta could possibly take measures against that video. That's what this thread is for. Only smart Bayonetta players would be here.

I know, and that is why I will let real pros decide what will happen, not people who argue for the sake of arguing about a really pointless topic. I might even make a request to delete this thread, it's really not helping the community
(P.S I do like ZeRo and I quote him a lot, but that's because I trust his judgement. I don't trust the judgement of a random person on the internet. Also, that one guy isn't being fair to the sheep. They aren't all that bad.)

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

+I might even make a request to delete this thread, it's not really helping the community

Please don't. We will come to a conclusion, even if it's this controversial.
Honestly, I suck at Smash. You want to know my win rate? 33% (For Glory by the way). The way I see it, if someone like me is this bad, but doesn't support the ban, better players shouldn't be struggling against her.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But she does have a terrible Neutral Game. She has Aerial Mobility, but her neutral game isn't too strong. She has Witch Twist and Witch Time, Bad frame data, Bullet Climax (that doesn't cover as much as Shiek Needles), Bad Roll and Laggy Spotdodge. Why do you think her Neutral Game is anything but terrible?

Relative to other characters, yeah, her neutral game isn't the best. I'm not suggesting her neutral game is worth writing home about, but everyone says her neutral game is "terrible" as if it's so bad that she shouldn't attempt it ever. I dunno about you, but I see Bayonetta players handle things just fine in neutral. It's not like they are forced to yield all that much.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I mean, if Bayo isn't fun in casual play I can understand that. It's a legitimate problem if you invite a friend over, they Bayo you, and your instinct is to play a different game. That's a legitimate stumbling block that should seek nerfing.

But whether she's fun to fight at tournaments? I'd argue if you're there for money, fun is a subjective second. People getting yelled at and harassed for playing excessively campy characters, are entirely valid approaches to the game if they see results. Regardless of what Twitch thinks on the matter. You play to win when there's $$$ to win. Top players, such as ZeRo, who (maybe) frown upon this mode of play are vainly fooling themselves. If a player gives ZeRo a really hard and unfun match, all the power to them. Their name is Mii Brawler and they were soft-banned because of it.

And don't get me wrong, this doesn't excuse Bayonetta. On the front of an offensive/reactive/punish character, she's really goofy. But if any other character playing campy can run the clock to win as an instinctive gameplan (which should inherently not be fun, but could win a game), that should never result in the character or player being banned or harassed. They tried to win equally as much as you did. They just did it differently.

Now if we see some jackass show up to a tournament and win it blindfolded with Bayonetta and tell everyone how much they suck after every match, that'd be a different story. It'd be morbidly entertaining, though.

 

[Darksydaz]

he tells us about a player in Japan, who picked up Bayo, used her for one week, then went on to win a major event in Japan. No other character is like that. Now what does this mean? It means this character carries the player, by giving to player fast, risk free options that come with little to no punishment for missing of failing them.

Since you like Quoting Zero, you should know that the Japanese player that won was the person that is number 5 on his list of best smash players and the tag partner of Ranai at Genesis 3. Also considered to be the best Sonic and top 3 Cloud in the world, Komorikiri is no pushover and especially taking a character that no one would have extensive match-up knowledge against into a tournament with his incredible skill, of course he was gonna win.

I have watched many videos on tournaments by MVG, and almost always see Saj, a Bayonetta player, be in grand finals.

Yeah, and in recent tournaments you seen Ryo beat Saj. Besides, there seems to be a widespread thing that Saj isn't supposed to be as good as he is when he's been around for a while as a peach main.

And for you Bayo mains out there that say she isn't a problem, think again. Professional players and many other people disagree. You are very oblivious to your characters strengths and you only know her weaknesses. I know her strengths, and they definitely outweigh her weaknesses.

You must've helped Beefy Smash Doods make their video on how to beat Bayonetta with your extensive knowledge of Bayonetta correct? I am a (scrubby) Bayonetta player and I understand her weaknesses pretty well. Lots of people will disagree and have opinions on this as it is 2 months in. But besides Locals, Bayonetta has yet to prove herself a threat of the level everyone is claiming since even Pink Fresh only got 7th at Pound (And Mewtwo won...).

It's like ZeRo, how before MLG, he talked about having to be perfect, every moment of everyday. That's basically what you have to be against Bayo. Perfect, no flaws, nothing wrong. Just perfect. No one can be perfect. I say your character should be needed because of how it is poisoning the community, by starting arguments like these. You really can't change my mind. And if you haven't, watch ZeRos video. He gets more complicated than what I am trying to say.

Some Bayonetta player must've destroyed you in pools in order for you to be this vocal (and ill informed) as to Bayonetta's abilities and even ZeRo's stance on Bayonetta. ZeRo also opposed the ban that spain has/plans on imposing on Bayonetta, instead telling people to adapt and learn the Match Up. He also goes to speak about alot of Bayonetta players that have popped up that are exempt from his "pick up and win" comments. So before you go quoting ZeRo or whomever else you'd like to informed as to the situation, you should read a little more or do your own research instead of regurgitating words and twisting them to benefit your own selfish desires.

Relative to other characters, yeah, her neutral game isn't the best. I'm not suggesting her neutral game is worth writing home about, but everyone says her neutral game is "terrible" as if it's so bad that she shouldn't attempt it ever. I dunno about you, but I see Bayonetta players handle things just fine in neutral. It's not like they are forced to yield all that much.

Well she doesn't have the frame data on her rolls like Cloud, the number of items she has that are Safe on Shield* is few, her OOS options are limited, and her projectile is angled up and doesn't work like Lucas PK fire, Missles, Lasers, or Needles. She has incredible aerial mobility that allows her to get out of most situations provided opponents don't read her escape, but the only thing she does is bait her opponents and/or goad them to approach to commit to an unsafe approach.

 

[Hydde]

If she has those zero to death combos...those must be nerfed hardcore. Sadly, what makes Bayo Bayo, are her guaranteed combos which no other player has in the game. She was made around those moves.

Maybe they will have to rework her and nullify those guaranteed easy to do combos (because yes, once you practice with her you can do those combos constantly).....and make her a more standard fighter compared to the other characters. A not so combo oriented fighter. Lets be real, she is the only character who can to guaranteed combos without having to really work for them. Thats unprecedented in smash, and is the root of all evil in this topic.

That maybe will be the only solution.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

But whether she's fun to fight at tournaments? I'd argue if you're there for money, fun is a subjective second. People getting yelled at and harassed for playing excessively campy characters, are entirely valid approaches to the game if they see results. Regardless of what Twitch thinks on the matter. You play to win when there's $$$ to win.

People do go to tournaments mainly to win. They don't care how (See Dabuz). Money usually comes before fun in a tournament.
Why don't more people understand this?! If you want fun, invite a friend or something. Don't go to a tournament.

If she has those zero to death combos...those must be nerfed hardcore. Sadly, what makes Bayo Bayo, are her guaranteed combos which no other player has in the game. She was made around those moves.

Maybe they will have to rework her and nullify those guaranteed easy to do combos (because yes, once you practice with her you can do those combos constantly).....and make her a more standard fighter compared to the other characters. A not so combo oriented fighter. Lets be real, she is the only character who can to guaranteed combos without having to really work for them. Thats unprecedented in smash, and is the root of all evil in this topic.

That maybe will be the only solution.

She's literally designed for being a combo-heavy character.

 

[Darksydaz]

If she has those zero to death combos...those must be nerfed hardcore. Sadly, what makes Bayo Bayo, are her guaranteed combos which no other player has in the game. She was made around those moves.

Maybe they will have to rework her and nullify those guaranteed easy to do combos (because yes, once you practice with her you can do those combos constantly).....and make her a more standard fighter compared to the other characters. A not so combo oriented fighter. Lets be real, she is the only character who can to guaranteed combos without having to really work for them. Thats unprecedented in smash, and is the root of all evil in this topic.

That maybe will be the only solution.

Her 0 - Death Combos and her Combos in General can be Directional Influenced to make the connecting parts harder to connect. She doesn't have Guaranteed combos, training mode tells you her combos aren't true after a certain point (i think Witch Twist to ABK is Guaranteed at low percents).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

People do go to tournaments mainly to win. They don't care how (See Dabuz). Money usually comes before fun in a tournament.
Why don't more people understand this?! If you want fun, invite a friend or something. Don't go to a tournament.

People in this discussion are conflating two separate issues. Of course we're not going to pander to whiny scrubs in tournaments. They whine about everything. Grabbing is cheap. Ledge-trumping is cheap. Edge-guarding is cheap. Bayonetta is cheap. As they gain skill, they eventually get over it and go back to having fun by deriving satisfaction from the blood, sweat, and tears put into mastering the game and scoring the W.

When people talk about Bayonetta making tournaments no longer fun, they're usually talking about a genuine depression that dissuades people from competing anymore. This is a real concern because, regardless of whether character X is broken or whether player Y should "git gud", this deep negativity can actually kill the game. That's why everyone needs to take it seriously. At the end of the day, even if the competitive community is "right", it amounts to nothing if there is no community propping the game up. We're not talking about minor gripes; we're talking about whether people will continue to perceive Smash 4 as worthy of their time.

Now, is Bayonetta causing that kind of negativity in communities? So far, no. Sure, people complain about her. (I'm certainly guilty at times.) But overall, they move on, and the game will be fine for the foreseeable future. Character diversity is strong, and Bayonetta isn't sweeping results.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Now, is Bayonetta causing that kind of negativity in communities? So far, no. Sure, people complain about her. (I'm certainly guilty at times.) But overall, they move on, and the game will be fine for the foreseeable future. Character diversity is strong, and Bayonetta isn't sweeping results.

I just don't see any good things about her other than DI'able 0-Death combos. Why do people complain. Every character is strong (Even Zelda has the Up-B OOS and Phantom Slash edgeguard) and weak (Rosalina is pretty bad without Luma) in a way. Bayonetta is no exception. She is not Brawl MK, and we put up with him now.

 

[Darksydaz]

I just don't see any good things about her other than DI'able 0-Death combos. Why do people complain. Every character is strong (Even Zelda has the Up-B OOS and Phantom Slash edgeguard) and weak (Rosalina is pretty bad without Luma) in a way. Bayonetta is no exception. She is not Brawl MK, and we put up with him now.

To be fair BrawlMK is op, not because he's Meta Knight. All his Sword hits are unclankable as they are programmed to be Lasers (think transcendent) along with invincible startup on his Up B, Landing Lag can be negated by using his Glide Attack, Small Hitbox, Infinite Dimensional Cape, Invincible Ledge Regrabs and Tornado is safe on shield. So no, Bayonetta WILL NEVER be that... but I understand how people can say that. Just... they compare her to BrawlMK because of his dominance, but few seem to understand the parts of why he was dominant and just say "He's a Terror and so is Bayo"

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Invincible Ledge Regrabs

Holy crap are you serious!?