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Banning Bayonetta in Tournaments

Should Bayonetta be banned?

  • Yes, she is game breaking

    Votes: 157 19.6%
  • No, players need to adapt to her mechanics

    Votes: 398 49.6%
  • Not sure yet, meta progress or patches could resolve the issue.

    Votes: 248 30.9%

  • Total voters
    803
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blackghost

Smash Champion
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Well there is a CHANCE every time you get hit by several of her moves that you will die at any %. (d-tilt dABK ect.) And while other characters do punish for overextention no other character has the threat of immediate death in retaliation for the littlest of commitment and at the same time those other characters may be good at punishing they have weaknesses in other areas. Bayo just does everything. I don't know if she's ban worthy yet we'll see after her meta has developed a good amount.
Bayo does "everything" huh?
She isn't safe on shield
She has no mixup potential
She has a trash neutral
She has no disjoints
She's the only high tier that cannot control the pace of a match.
She has landing lag after ever action she does
She has a bad projectile
One safe air attack
Bad grab range
Laughable rolls and spot dodges
Even a bad clank animation recovery and she cranks a lot.
These weaknesses are small to players at mid level at a high level they prevent her from winning a big tournament so far. And I really want someone to explain how she's so broken when no top player has switched to her. Players picked up cloud immediately. Why aren't they switching to her now then?
 

Gecko Moria

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Bayo does "everything" huh?
She isn't safe on shield
She has no mixup potential
She has a trash neutral
She has no disjoints
She's the only high tier that cannot control the pace of a match.
She has landing lag after ever action she does
She has a bad projectile
One safe air attack
Bad grab range
Laughable rolls and spot dodges
Even a bad clank animation recovery and she cranks a lot.
These weaknesses are small to players at mid level at a high level they prevent her from winning a big tournament so far. And I really want someone to explain how she's so broken when no top player has switched to her. Players picked up cloud immediately. Why aren't they switching to her now then?
her neutral isn't really that bad. It's not amazing but several top players have agreed that her neutral isn't horrible. from what iv'e seen b-air dABK and d-tilt are safe on shield 2 of which can lead to huge ridiculous punishes . Her "bad neutral" is further negated by the fact that she doesn't approach at all because of bullet arts and bullet climax beats sh approaches which actually makes it quite good in my opinion. The rest of what you mentioned doesn't make her bad or not broken so i won't be commenting on those.
 

Sha-Shulk

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My problem with Bayonetta is how she can punish me off my jab and get +30% off me. No other character (perhaps Hyper Buster Shulk) can "counter" a jab and get ridiculous damage off it.

And if you think, "the combos are escapable", than that poses the problem of ruining Bayonetta's entire playstyle: aerial combos. I think Sakurai intended for her aerial combos to be potent. If they're not even 75% "true combos" than that means that Bayonetta effectively has no combos in the air. Which I believe to be false.

I agree that she has poor frame data, but I'm a Shulk main, so I think everyone's frame data is better.

I think Witch Time should scale with the damage of the attack that is countered. That way, it is more potent countering a smash, or perhaps a strong tilt attack, and virtually useless against a jab like Pikachu's, and highly ineffective against other jabs. Of course, it would also scale with damage, so a Pikachu at 100% would probably be witch time'd long enough from a jab to be punished hard for it.

Other than that, I think her 0-deaths should be toned down, if they exist, (i believe they do) but the majority of the character is just unique and will take time to adapt.
 

Greda

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Apr 14, 2014
Messages
366
It's only been (about) 2 months she's been released, so it makes me wonder if people are complaining about her just because she has the advantage on other peoples mains matchups.
 

Greward

Smash Lord
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Bayo does "everything" huh?
She isn't safe on shield
She has no mixup potential
She has a trash neutral
She has no disjoints
She's the only high tier that cannot control the pace of a match.
She has landing lag after ever action she does
She has a bad projectile
One safe air attack
Bad grab range
Laughable rolls and spot dodges
Even a bad clank animation recovery and she cranks a lot.
These weaknesses are small to players at mid level at a high level they prevent her from winning a big tournament so far. And I really want someone to explain how she's so broken when no top player has switched to her. Players picked up cloud immediately. Why aren't they switching to her now then?
If all your affirmations were actually true, we wouldn't be discussing this.

Her neutral is very good, she has a very strong projectile game and the fact that so many options for the other player are extremely risky since moves like dtilt, uptilt and witch time among others do set up to guaranteed 0 death shuts down the options for other players if they try to keep it as low risk as possible.

She is safe on shield with moves like bair or dtilt or divekick or witch twist.
She does have ok mixup potential, average I guess, still why do you even need it.
She has no trash neutral. Two of the best projectiles combined with amazing mobility and safe, long ranged moves and the best out of shield in the game? She can outcamp most characters as well if she ever wanted.
She does have disjoints (upB, sideB, smashes).
Lmao
Well yeah, the only character who doesn't is Mega Man with nair. I don't see the point. She's not suffering from landing lag. If you mean the lag after special moves, she does, still you ain't punishing her divekick landing.
She has two great projectiles, albeit neutral B is matchup dependant. KDtilt and KNair are amazing.
Fair is also safe in most matchups. One safe attack is the usual though. Aerial side b and upb are also safe on shield.
You are right sir, she has bad grab range.
Frame 1 spotdodges and rolls aren't enough? lol
I didn't know that about the animation, clanking depends on damage in the move though.

I explained why no top player is maining her in previous posts. She's basically so broken that if mained by any top player the game would die out. Cloud is very good, not broken/gamebreaking.




If you want to ban bayonetta, in your region do it, but then your region will be more weak at international level, if you cant wait 2 or 3 months to see if the balance team adjust she, like you know ever single top tier??,I dont believe that good players dont want to use her, because if she was so broken and can win tournaments for you easy then you are leaving easy money on the table, does that make sense?? why the majority of top players switched to :4diddy::4sheik::4metaknight::4cloud:when they were top tier, but now a supposedly even better character is out, and you dont use her because of pride?? that doesn't make sense.
It's my region that wants to ban her as a whole, not just me.
Huh, I don't play this game because of the money. Do you? If I wanted money I'd be working instead.

Nah we're pretty sure that unless veeery strongly nerfed she will be banned worldwide in a couple of months. We're just going ahead like with customs and jank stages.

Banning Bayonetta is ,in my opinion, quite stupid because she isn't nearly as broken as brawl Metaknight (Got banned then unbanned) or melee Fox (Completely broken) aren't banned, beacuse banning bayonetta won't solve anything. Everyone will start protesting and starting to complain about Zero Suit, Mario or RosaLuma or something.
Banning bayonetta means banning bayonetta. Sheik, Rosalina, Cloud and all other characters are fine.
tbh I doubt someone registered in 2015 can really talk about Meta Knight power level.
Still, she's better than those.
Now come, quote and laugh at me newbies registered during the last two years who believe saying something is stronger than MK is pure madness.
 
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TheBuzzSaw

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When someone posted the video of Dabuz killing Mr. R's Sheik at 0% with Rosalina, I wasn't even mad.
 

Sha-Shulk

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It's only been (about) 2 months she's been released, so it makes me wonder if people are complaining about her just because she has the advantage on other peoples mains matchups.
Well, yes, Bayonetta seems to do well against Shulk. Why? Shulk has no option against her aerial combos.

But good against Mario? (my other 3ds main) Mario is supposed to be safe to use. But punishing my tilt, leading to huge damage? If Bayonetta can pull that off against Mario, and you declare that an uneven matchup, then every character (sheik?) has a poor matchup against Bayonetta. Which would result in a ban, imo.
 

Greda

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Messages
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Well, yes, Bayonetta seems to do well against Shulk. Why? Shulk has no option against her aerial combos.

But good against Mario? (my other 3ds main) Mario is supposed to be safe to use. But punishing my tilt, leading to huge damage? If Bayonetta can pull that off against Mario, and you declare that an uneven matchup, then every character (sheik?) has a poor matchup against Bayonetta. Which would result in a ban, imo.
Are you talking about Witch Time? So Witch Time instantly makes everyone vs Bayonetta a poor matchup??
 

Scribe

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I like this comparison. A character like Bayonetta will only ever warrant a ban when half of the players main her, half of every top 8 is dominated by her, and every Grand Finals set is Bayonetta dittoes.

Meanwhile, the first super major since Bayonetta's release, Pound 2016, has been won by M2. Results really aren't in favor of any bans.
Absolutely this. If there is any situation where we should be following the Street Fighter community's example, it's this. Don't jump the gun. Don't do anything about it unless it becomes an endemic, demonstrable problem, and never overvalue internet sentiment. Poll some top players and TOs in a non-ban context. I'd highly recommend reading up on Sirlin's article on when to ban something, (which also covers the Akuma/Old Sagat example that I brought up).
Bayo does "everything" huh?
She isn't safe on shield
She has no mixup potential
She has a trash neutral
She has no disjoints
She's the only high tier that cannot control the pace of a match.
She has landing lag after ever action she does
She has a bad projectile
One safe air attack
Bad grab range
Laughable rolls and spot dodges
Even a bad clank animation recovery and she cranks a lot.
These weaknesses are small to players at mid level at a high level they prevent her from winning a big tournament so far. And I really want someone to explain how she's so broken when no top player has switched to her. Players picked up cloud immediately. Why aren't they switching to her now then?
Some of these aren't quite true, but yeah. She has definite weaknesses that, unfortunately, a lot of players haven't learned to capitalize on.
Well, yes, Bayonetta seems to do well against Shulk. Why? Shulk has no option against her aerial combos.

But good against Mario? (my other 3ds main) Mario is supposed to be safe to use. But punishing my tilt, leading to huge damage? If Bayonetta can pull that off against Mario, and you declare that an uneven matchup, then every character (sheik?) has a poor matchup against Bayonetta. Which would result in a ban, imo.
Okay, but here's the thing, just having advantageous matchups across the board isn't enough to warrant a ban. A character is only good enough to warrant a ban if their matchups are so extraordinarily good across the board that nothing short of a miracle is required to beat them. "They're the best" isn't enough of a reason to ban a character. "They're ten times better than everyone else," is, but that would mean that in a match between two players of a similar skill level, it would be outright impossible for Bayonetta to lose, something that has been proven patently untrue time and time again, especially at Pound.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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something that has been proven patently untrue time and time again, especially at Pound.
But that could change, and that is what has people scared. There's absolutely no evidence warranting a ban at this time, but people view Bayonetta's strengths as a coming storm. Again, Pound didn't prove that she's balanced for all time; it merely proved that she's not broken yet.

And who knows. Maybe she will never become broken, and we'll all live happily ever after. On the flip side, someone may refine her to deal with all her problematic matchups, and we'll start seeing Bayonetta in all the top 8 slots.
 

Sha-Shulk

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Okay, but here's the thing, just having advantageous matchups across the board isn't enough to warrant a ban. A character is only good enough to warrant a ban if their matchups are so extraordinarily good across the board that nothing short of a miracle is required to beat them. "They're the best" isn't enough of a reason to ban a character. "They're ten times better than everyone else," is, but that would mean that in a match between two players of a similar skill level, it would be outright impossible for Bayonetta to lose, something that has been proven patently untrue time and time again, especially at Pound.
I agree. I meant near unwinnable matchups. Sorry about that.

It's just a hard life for a Shulk main. But then again, I also have Corrin and Mario to back me up!

I think that I just need to analyze Bayonetta then. I just don't like how I have to literally pay to be able to thoroughly learn her moveset and abilities
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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If all your affirmations were actually true, we wouldn't be discussing this.

Her neutral is very good, she has a very strong projectile game and the fact that so many options for the other player are extremely risky since moves like dtilt, uptilt and witch time among others do set up to guaranteed 0 death shuts down the options for other players if they try to keep it as low risk as possible.

She is safe on shield with moves like bair or dtilt or divekick or witch twist.
She does have ok mixup potential, average I guess, still why do you even need it.
She has no trash neutral. Two of the best projectiles combined with amazing mobility and safe, long ranged moves and the best out of shield in the game? She can outcamp most characters as well if she ever wanted.
She does have disjoints (upB, sideB, smashes).
Lmao
Well yeah, the only character who doesn't is Mega Man with nair. I don't see the point. She's not suffering from landing lag. If you mean the lag after special moves, she does, still you ain't punishing her divekick landing.
She has two great projectiles, albeit neutral B is matchup dependant. KDtilt and KNair are amazing.
Fair is also safe in most matchups. One safe attack is the usual though. Aerial side b and upb are also safe on shield.
You are right sir, she has bad grab range.
Frame 1 spotdodges and rolls aren't enough? lol
I didn't know that about the animation, clanking depends on damage in the move though.

I explained why no top player is maining her in previous posts. She's basically so broken that if mained by any top player the game would die out. Cloud is very good, not broken/gamebreaking


It's my region that wants to ban her as a whole, not just me.
Huh, I don't play this game because of the money. Do you? If I wanted money I'd be working instead.

s.
divekick isnt safe on shield. did you watch pound? mars punished it repeatidly with zss. and she must land and she has lag.
i've had this argument with other players before witchtime is a counter with hogh rewards yes but if you dont get your read or worse if its a missinput its recharge time is extrmely long at this point. and yu get punished as well. two of the best projectiles? she has a projectile yes. is it amazing absolutely not. the first few charged shots have knockbac the rest dont even stop players from running forward. what even is her second projectile? no bayonetta is going to cmap with nair or dair bullet arts they do no damage and don't do enough damage to even warrant that. its like .5 percent per hit.
her batwithin is PUNISHABLE once agian look at pound. she has frames of lag when she batwithins and she doesnt even always escape.
Her neutral is bad. zss shut it down and so did hyuga. i'm not going by what happens at locals at high level play at pound there were times when she looked helpless on how to face a skilled defensive opponent who was spacing her out.
bair isn't disjointed bair is just long hitbox but its connected to her hurtbox. dont think side b (either form is a disjoint as well) up is a disjoint.
I explained why no top player is maining her in previous posts. She's basically so broken that if mained by any top player the game would die out. don't buy that stateent for even one second. If you are a compeititve player you play the best charfacters because it gives you the best chance to win. i tihnk players aren't using her becuase she hasn't won anything. they don't see a real reason to. This is the only community i've seen where a character is complained about that has won nothing. in MKx people are starting to question alien after he dominated a top 8 regional. in umvc 3 doom,zero and vergil are ocmplained about becuase they dominate top level play and win the most. bayonetta is 2 of tpo 32 and peopl complain? what? top 8 we STILL have shiek v shiek in alot of tournments.

I explained why no top player is maining her in previous posts. She's basically so broken that if mained by any top player the game would die out.
Statements like this are why the traditional fighting game players dont respect smash players. i'm just going to leave it at that. it sound absolutely ridiculous.

i really doint think we will ever see all bayonetta top 8 because that mirrior is super wierd. bayo loses more to witchtime than most of the cast does. she loses most of her moveset.
 
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Scribe

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But that could change, and that is what has people scared. There's absolutely no evidence warranting a ban at this time, but people view Bayonetta's strengths as a coming storm. Again, Pound didn't prove that she's balanced for all time; it merely proved that she's not broken yet.

And who knows. Maybe she will never become broken, and we'll all live happily ever after. On the flip side, someone may refine her to deal with all her problematic matchups, and we'll start seeing Bayonetta in all the top 8 slots.
When it comes to fighitng games, unless you have an Akuma-type situation where it is literally impossible to beat the character unless the player using them is severely outclassed (like, a low-level player vs. a high-level player), it's much more likely to see the character become more tame due to people knowing how to deal with the character than for the character to become ban-worthy due to the meta developing.
 
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Sha-Shulk

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I simply don't like Bayonetta's playstyle. I suppose i just need help with the MU. any threads i can look at?
 

BunbUn129

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But that could change, and that is what has people scared. There's absolutely no evidence warranting a ban at this time, but people view Bayonetta's strengths as a coming storm. Again, Pound didn't prove that she's balanced for all time; it merely proved that she's not broken yet.

And who knows. Maybe she will never become broken, and we'll all live happily ever after. On the flip side, someone may refine her to deal with all her problematic matchups, and we'll start seeing Bayonetta in all the top 8 slots.
Note: excuse me for the long write-up.

What matters most is what we have, the concrete info and data that we have gathered. No one really knows what could "potentially" happen to the meta game. The worst thing you could ever do is consider bans when they're simply not warranted--it's the same thing that happened to the Miis. We don't want another sad mess.

A character needs time to develop. It took several months before Brawl MK was shown to be the unquestionable best character--many players believed Snake was the best at first, which anyone would laugh at today. The general consensus among reputable figures (ZeRo's opinion isn't the only one, guys) is that the Bayonetta crisis has been overblown and that she is far behind Brawl MK--so are we going to take measures to ban her when only two months have passed and she hasn't even won a super-major? We took measures against Meta Knight and, to a lesser extent, the Ice Climbers, only after we had a large sample size and decisive data. Four years for MK to get banned--and people are asking for bans after two inconclusive months?

Bayonetta is a "coming storm?" Well, what if she isn't? Again, you can't take measures based purely off of paranoia and theory. Pre-patch Sheik warranted a ban more than Bayonetta. People frequently draw a comparison between Bayo and the IC's--but what they don't mention is that the IC's never won a major tourney in Brawl. The IC's evolved into a cancerous problem at around 2012, and was one of the impetus's behind lifting the MK ban. Even though Brawl was starting to decline, they had nearly 3 years to take a major, and they never did.

......

In this tragic controversy surrounding Bayonetta, I find it funny that people are ignoring the real problem: Cloud. Ask yourself: what character screams "pick up and play?" Cloud. Bayonetta doesn't fit that description because her design is pretty unintuitive.

Bayonetta has a bait-and-punish play style--and punishment characters tend to be anything but pick-up-and-play, eg. :4metaknight::4ryu:and even :4zss:. Yes, memes aside, ZSS is not an easy character to just play. ZSS requires good fundamentals in her neutral game, and low-level players mostly lack that. They like to throw out grabs and whiff them--good ZSS players don't do that. ZSS is an amazing character, and if she really was easy to play, she would be winning every major. Punishment characters are generally held back by their honest neutral games, and a pick-up-and-play character is NOT honest. :4sheik: is easier to pick up and understand because of her incredible safety. For a novice, the hard part about playing Sheik is KO'ing. They often don't have issues playing her neutral. The catch is that she's a hard character to optimize, but she's still a successful character at low-level (though less than pre-patch), which indicates that she can get results without a ton of effort.

A "pick-up-and-play" character is one who can rush in and be aggressive. :4bayonetta: can't rush in; average mobility stats and below average frame data on the ground don't facilitate a rush-down play style, along with her slow rolls. Also, yeah, an overpowered noob-character will never have slow rolls. Against good players, a Bayo player will need to have a solid understanding of the neutral game. Good players will play defensively against Bayo, and Bayo doesn't have the best options vs reserved, patient play: a lack of guaranteed follow-ups from throws, a projectile that fires at an upward angle that prevents long range camping, and bullet arts are impractical at racking damage. Her two safe pressure options, SH bair and ABK, lose to shield. Bayo's best neutral options are Witch Twist OoS and Witch Time, her two best combo-starters, but they're just that: defensive options.

Meanwhile, :4cloud2: has really good mobility stats, a moveset filled with massive hitboxes and long active frames, a charging mechanic, and good frame data all-around--these are the traits of a pick-up-and-play character. Cloud's reward is highly disproportionate to his learning curve. And results are completely in favor of this. Ever since Bayo's release, Cloud has won the largest number of tourneys. Bayo needs you to learn to bait unsafe options. She's a reactive character.

Cloud is much more versatile. He can choose between rushing in and overwhelming you with his hitboxes and movement, and camping to charge his Limit Break. Cloud controls the pace of the match at high-level play in a way that Bayonetta simply can't. "But Witch Time!" Witch Time doesn't bait approaches. Limit Break does, and Limit Break opens up KOing options in a similar manner to Witch Time.

Low-level players have gotten away with poor neutral play for a long time. They simply can't do so with Bayo. They actually need to play neutral properly now, and that's why they're complaining. And once they learn to exploit Bayo's neutral--that's when they'll realize Cloud is a bigger issue.

Bayo is a noob-killer, but is all bark and little bite at top level play. Cloud, on the other hand, has excellent results across the board.
 
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Scribe

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Note: excuse me for the long write-up.

What matters most is what we have, the concrete info and data that we have gathered. No one really knows what could "potentially" happen to the meta game. The worst thing you could ever do is consider bans when they're simply not warranted--it's the same thing that happened to the Miis. We don't want another sad mess.

A character needs time to develop. It took several months before Brawl MK was shown to be the unquestionable best character--many players believed Snake was the best at first, which anyone would laugh at today. The general consensus among reputable figures (ZeRo's opinion isn't the only one, guys) is that the Bayonetta crisis has been overblown and that she is far behind Brawl MK--so are we going to take measures to ban her when only two months have passed and she hasn't even won a super-major? We took measures against Meta Knight and, to a lesser extent, the Ice Climbers, only after we had a large sample size and decisive data. Four years for MK to get banned--and people are asking for bans after two inconclusive months?

Bayonetta is a "coming storm?" Well, what if she isn't? Again, you can't take measures based purely off of paranoia and theory. Pre-patch Sheik warranted a ban more than Bayonetta. People frequently draw a comparison between Bayo and the IC's--but what they don't mention is that the IC's never won a major tourney in Brawl. The IC's evolved into a cancerous problem at around 2012, and was one of the impetus's behind lifting the MK ban. Even though Brawl was starting to decline, they had nearly 3 years to take a major, and they never did.

- SNIP -
Jesus ****-whittling Christ, you've put it so much better than I can. I'd like this post five times over if I could.

Hell, I'd add that Witch Time serves the exact opposite purpose from baiting approaches. You're supposed to use it after reading a certain option or after baiting someone into doing something.
 
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BunbUn129

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Jesus ****-whittling Christ, you've put it so much better than I can. I'd like this post five times over if I could.

Hell, I'd add that Witch Time serves the exact opposite purpose from baiting approaches. You're supposed to use it after reading a certain option or after baiting someone into doing something.
I didn't mention another point: :4metaknight::4zss: had very similar game-plans to :4bayonetta: pre-patch. People developed counter-play to MK and ZSS by playing a defensive neutral game. A punishment character wants you to commit to unsafe options; thus, the correct answer is to play defensively and commit to as little as possible. In MK's case, people would camp at the ledge and abuse projectiles and safe pokes. At the most fundamental level, Bayo requires the same counter-play, because her two best combo-starters can't be landed without a read or the opponent doing something stupid. Bayo's results only get worse the higher up you go in competitive play, for two reasons: because top-level players aren't going to dedicate themselves to a character who's on the chopping block, and because high-level players know their safe pokes and don't commit to unnecessary options.
 

SoccerStar9001

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If all your affirmations were actually true, we wouldn't be discussing this.
While not all is true, we would be discussing regardless because everyone is super paranoid about how OP Bayonetta might actually be.

Her neutral is very good, she has a very strong projectile game and the fact that so many options for the other player are extremely risky since moves like dtilt, uptilt and witch time among others do set up to guaranteed 0 death shuts down the options for other players if they try to keep it as low risk as possible.
Her neutral is held back by sub par mobility and bad framedata. And once again with the "guaranteed 0 to death" argument, this is all your argument is based on. Once people find a solution to the 0 to death, you argument is a lost cause and is just pure paranoia. If you look carefully, Bayonetta's opponent does live past 100% often.
Her projectile isn't even that good, it does meh damage, has a lot of lag, and shoots at a weird angle.

She is safe on shield with moves like bair or dtilt or divekick or witch twist.
She does have ok mixup potential, average I guess, still why do you even need it.
She has no trash neutral. Two of the best projectiles combined with amazing mobility and safe, long ranged moves and the best out of shield in the game? She can outcamp most characters as well if she ever wanted.
She does have disjoints (upB, sideB, smashes).
She is very ineffective on shields, she has no shield breakers, her grab is fairly useless for combos, and most of her moves are still very unsafe on shields.
Her mixup potential is somewhat limited due to her mobility and framedata, most of her options are pretty slow.
That is pure bull! No way in hell is BC and BA the best projectile in the game. BC is very laggy and doesn't camp well. BA does 0 hitstun and deal on a mere 0.5% per shots. Her aerial mobility very bad, her air speed was lower than pre patch Bowser (0.98), hitting only 0.97. Saying she can outcamp most character is just a ball of lies.

Well yeah, the only character who doesn't is Mega Man with nair. I don't see the point. She's not suffering from landing lag. If you mean the lag after special moves, she does, still you ain't punishing her divekick landing.
She has two great projectiles, albeit neutral B is matchup dependant. KDtilt and KNair are amazing.
Fair is also safe in most matchups. One safe attack is the usual though. Aerial side b and upb are also safe on shield.
You are right sir, she has bad grab range.
Frame 1 spotdodges and rolls aren't enough? lol
If you can't punish her landing lag after using special moves, it is purely your own problem and you need to get better at doing so.
BA, are not really projectiles, at best they are very disjointed hitboxs. They do very little damage and deals no hitstun at all.
How about other moves? All of the options you mention are ineffective on shields, and even if she has a few safe options, that doesn't mean all her options are safe.
Bayonetta's dodges are among the worst in the game, Bayonetta doesn't have frame 1 rolls at all. All of her dodges are the laggiest in the game (albeit roll is 3 frame faster than Samus'), and getting hit in the initial frames force Bayonetta to take half damages. Her air dodge features 9 frames of endlag which everyone else has only 5 or 6, Mewtwo has only 4!

I explained why no top player is maining her in previous posts. She's basically so broken that if mained by any top player the game would die out. Cloud is very good, not broken/gamebreaking.
Your explanation is pure bull, why would you leave free money on the table? If a character is as broken as you claim, why is very few people picking her up? There was only 4 Bayonetta at Top 64 of Pound and only two of them made it to Top 16, and none made it to top 4.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Pound_2016
Explain to me if she is so broken, why there wasn't a Bayonetta ditto at grand finals? How is a character that is broken on paper, lose before Top 4?
 
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BunbUn129

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Common misconceptions about Bayonetta that are sadly fueling the fire:

-She has a good neutral game
-Bullet Climax is a good projectile
-Heel-slide Kick is a good approach option
-Every hit leads into a 0-death
-Her combos are completely unpunishable if dropped
-Her counter is spammable and free
-Opponents always die early
-Down tilt is completely safe
 
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Sha-Shulk

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I'm sorry if I was sounding paranoid. I just don't like the playstyle of Bayonetta, and i had concerns about her frame one dodges. (I didn't realize she had such bad lag on them)

I still think Witch Time could be reworked, imo. Not nerfed. just reworked

EDIT: When i say i don't like the playstyle, I mean i don't like playing that type of character.
 
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SoccerStar9001

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Agreed! BunbUn129.
I will add to you points.

-She has a good neutral game
Lackluster mobility and bad framedata is the main reason.

-Bullet Climax is a good projectile
Laggy and not very campable. But I will say, it has its uses.

-Heel-slide Kick is a good approach option
Starts up on frame 15, while the Kick comes in at frame 54.

-Every hit leads into a 0-death
If that is true, why does Bayonetta's opponent live past 100% so often, right?
This is just pure paranoia.

-Her combos are completely unpunishable if dropped
She have a lot of landing lag after performing a huge combo strings, it is more than punishable.

-Her counter is spammable and free
Witch Time decays quite a lot after one use and is just another counter. Human reaction time + Witch Time startup is 17 frames. The odds of falling for it with a jab is quite low.

-Opponents always die early
I seen many of her opponents live past 100%.

-Down tilt is completely safe
Down tilt can be punished, you can grab her after shielding it.

PS. found a humor video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foekGe69m58
 

Shaya

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Smash is a lot different to other games.

Something that seems to be constant among everyone here (despite it not being something anyone would logically crutch on if they lived/existed through the Brawl era) is that MK and maybe ICs were bannable.
They weren't unbeatable.
Their match ups were disgusting though. Not necessarily against EVERY character, but definitely approached disgusting for 2/3rds of the cast or more.

Different levels of play have different interactions, and we're a game and community that does consider all relevant levels of play because we've needed to. Our scene is still grassroots in most places and we cater to the hobbyists more so than the die hard e-sports competitors. Our top players are still grass roots at heart and none of them have gotten to where they are now by forsaking the community.

A real constant that exists in the scene at nearly every stage of Smash's existence is that a better player at the game will generally be able to beat anyone worse than them, despite what they pick. Smash is very unique, and people from other fighting game backgrounds do not seem to understand how infinitely complicated options spreads are in this game (these people are indoctrinated to think 'neutral' 'advantage' 'disadvantage' are the only modes of play that exist, and that's near definite in traditional fighters but cannot be rationalized in Smash).

So what gets people raising their backs? A player losing to someone of some "tangibly" less skill than they are due to the extreme use cases a character has.
Every character has weaknesses, every character has counter play. To have the bar of what's bannable be "has no weaknesses and has no real counter play" is asinine and just CANNOT exist in a game like Smash. This is the argument anti-MK banners thrived on for a long time and all we got from it was a rapidly dying game that unlike any other past Smash game is no longer played.
So when low level players can't beat people better than them with a character because that's not how Smash works, they think there's no problem with the character. If you cannot comprehend any further than that, this argument is going to be infinitely circular and go absolutely no where.

If I have to read someone say "BUT NOTHING OF THEIRS IS SAFE ON SHIELD", which reflects on the person as someone who doesn't understand Smash, it's going to send people insane.
NOTHING is truly safe on shield in this game. That's how Smash works and has nearly always worked. Maybe you're too used to traditional fighters?
Maybe you think that down tilting someone with bad spacing (one of the most paramount important skills in Smash that define the "tangible" observable skill sets a player has) isn't safe on shield.
BUT EVERYTHING WITH POOR SPACING IS NOT SAFE ON SHIELD.

I'm not pro-ban.
But there really are a lot of low level observations being passed off as arguments and it's been the prime force behind the "anti-ban" (which is seemingly made up of 'bayo players who haven't learned to overcome her book-cover weaknesses': HOWEVER it's safe to say no Bayo has learned to overcome those weaknesses at top level and there's a chance they never will, hence "overrated" which is fine and believable, the rest is not though) that we're reading here.

This is an opportunity for you to better understand the game and how Smash works. If you're going to say "nothing is safe on shield" then you aren't capable of comprehending the perspective that has built up a pro-ban regiment in the community. No one is trying to force you to be pro-ban, this is a subjective argument that's likely going to last for a while (assuming no balance changes), but you need to understand both sides... and you cannot do that if you're going to crutch on traditional fighter fundamentals or harp on weaknesses that exist for every character in Smash.

Marss obviously has exceptional bayonetta match up knowledge - him hard reading / calling out the dive kick in an unreactable situation with boost kick was AMAZING and I loved it. But do you honestly believe this is a consistently feasible thing? And that every character has such an option?
 
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blackghost

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Mars studied the matchup and learned what he could do about it. and some moves are definitely safe in this game. you spent so much time talking about how smash is different form other fighters but you ignore how its the same. all fighing game revolve around certain principles: offensive tools, defensive tools, neutral game, spacing, and range. smash is no different.
there definatlymoves in smash 4 that are 100 percent safe when hitting a shield. cloud has limit side b, shiek bouncing fish, small shadow ball, monkey flip,bike ect. not every move needs spacing to be safe some moves hotting shiel are safe.
 
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BunbUn129

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Where did the belief that bayonetta is easy even come from? The notion that shes free wins and majors as well? is it commentators? people like zero whining? seriously where? because its just flat not true.
It's one of those things you simply don't know. The truth is, it's not hard to find people who think she is easy, and her supposed ease of use is one of the central reasons for the argument supporting the ban. I'm not defending Bayo's design--I think she is a poorly balanced character, and that's likely because the devs applied different rules to her when they designed her (being one of the characters that was catered specifically to competitive players).

I feel Bayo reflects that Sakurai doesn't have proper understanding of competitive play; long, flow-chart combo-trees /=/ fun or excitement, neither for viewers nor for players. Serious players don't want more combos; they want deeper interactions, and that's the heart of the problem in Bayo's design: there's minimal interaction between both sides compared to other characters. You got Witch Timed? Eat an easy, inescapable 30-50% or death. It's not satisfying for the initiator, and it's unfair to the receiver. No character can punish you so hardly for a jab.

Like I mentioned, Bayo doesn't start her set-ups for free, despite what many will have you believe. She's frustrating to play against because once she does land the combo-starter, her confirms are very hard to mess-up--mainly due to Witch Time. At least there was a good deal of interaction with Sheik's down throw 50/50; the Sheik player not only needed the opener (down throw), but also had to account for the opponent's defensive option.

Bayo doesn't 0-death with much consistency, and that's not the issue; it's that so much of her damage is consistent. Before Bayo's release, no one cared about SDI in this game. And her release sparked sudden conversations about the potential use of SDI, and that is NOT a good sign. People were even discussing the uses of crouch-cancelling in dealing with Bayonetta. We were scraping the bottom of the barrel for anything to lower her unreasonable damage output.

Again, I believe Cloud is a better character and #1, but I find Cloud to be a bit more balanced. Cloud doesn't have high-damage auto-combos that may occasionally 0-death you. My problem with Cloud is his ease of use. Cloud still has to interact with his opponents a reasonable amount in every game state, while the majority of the cast gets utterly shut-down in Bayonetta's advantage state.

What adds more salt to the wound is that Sakurai has gone about nerfing KO set-ups and confirms (:4diddy::4metaknight::4luigi::4zss::4sheik:), and then :4bayonetta: basically gets off for free? Even though he essentially designed a whole character around KO set-ups and confirms?
 
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Shaya

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definitely safe in this game. you spent so much time talking about how smash is different form other fighters but you ignore how its the same. all fighing game revolve around certain principles: offensive tools, defensive tools, neutral game, spacing, and range. smash is no different.
Yep, there is a basic view or 'language' to all these that can be inferred. But you still didn't seem to get much of the post.

there definatlymoves in smash 4 that are 100 percent safe when hitting a shield. cloud has limit side b, shiek bouncing fish, small shadow ball, monkey flip,bike ect. not every move needs spacing to be safe some moves hotting shiel are safe.
You just listed moves which are EASIER to be safe on shield.
Not actually 'definitely safe on shield'; you don't understand and it's not something you're going to understand from a few posts.

Cloud's limit cross slash, probably the best example in your list here of things which are 'safe on shield' because it's unlikely to be power shielded is
-14 on shield. MINUS FOURTEEN. (it's a two frame hitbox so it can be -13 too)
Furthermore between the fourth and final hits, there are 8 frames the blocker has to act and the average spot dodge has 1 frame start up and the average roll has 3 frames start up. If you're on top of Cloud at the time you can shield grab him with most characters before the final hit. Tons of leeway, it's just DIFFICULT

Bayonetta's down tilt in contrast is between -13 and -11 on block.
It's literally the same OR BETTER frame safety as cross slash. But why is Cloud's harder to punish? Because it's behind a disjointed sword with multiple hits before hand that add greater shield push back.
In this game anything around -10 is generally considered safe on shield, although there is nearly always a way for it to not be.

Thank you for providing a concrete example of the common misconceptions we have to fight so hard against.
 
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BunbUn129

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A move's safety is determined by the following, not just shield-stun or lag:

-Ending/landing lag
-Damage = shield-stun
-Range
-Active frames (a move with longer active frames allows more time for an opponent to prepare to punish the ending lag, though it won't matter if the ending lag is low enough)
-Position (cross-ups, how well you space the move)
-Not very common: some moves are slow enough to be punished in their start-up (eg MK's fsmash has 23 frames before the hitbox, which is enough time to punish if you're close enough)

On a further note, a move's safety is also determined by the opponent's own ability and tools to punish it. It's harder for Ganon to punish a whiffed grab than, say, Fox, because Fox's superior mobility and frame data allow him to react faster.

It's worth noting that virtually any move that isn't a projectile is unsafe if power-shielded, so that alone means there's no such thing as a move that is 100% safe and completely immune to punishment. And, of course, a move's safety isn't measured in safety on shield alone.

Can it be punished if spot-dodged, rolled, or air dodged, or simply whiffed?
 
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Scribe

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Shaya Shaya The relative safety of a move depending on spacing is nothing that's unique to Smash. It's very common for particularly meaty moves to be safer or easier to combo out of at their maximum range than it is right up close - it's even a big part of Bison's playstyle in SFV.

And the idea that using matchup spreads are only an indicator of how good something is in traditional fighting games - or that the inherent differences between Smash and traditional fighting games makes this method inapplicable - is absolutely ridiculous. It's something used far outside of the fighting game genre - for factions in RTSes or champions/heroes in MOBAs, for instance, and the notion that, in order for something to be bannable for being "too good," it must have such an insurmountable advantage above everything else that it is effectively unbeatable at most levels of play (I say most levels because things can get wonky in top level play, and casual play is often a completely different beast) is not unique to traditional fighting games, either. I wholeheartedly suggest we follow the sage wisdom of our elders (seriously, this has been one of the premier articles on the subject for the past 12 years), since, again, we shouldn't ban something just because "it's the best," or because it's "dishonest," or it "makes the game look bad." All of those are terrible mindsets to adhere to, and banning something based on that would only be worse for our game in the long run. Like I've said before, Bayonetta's design and the community's reaction to it eerily parallels the path that the SoulCalibur community went down with Algol in 4, an example that we absolutely shouldn't follow.

Also worth noting that as a Ness main, I find the notion that people didn't care about SDI pre-Bayonetta hilarious.

And if you want to argue that Bayonetta does have no weaknesses, I might just enter a tournament with her and use Sheer Heart Attack as my tag. :pimp:
 

Shaya

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Then it would be fairer to say we're yet to actually figure out an accurate way to represent match ups in the smash series. The idea of 'two evenly skilled players' coming up against each other seems improbable, and the interactions that exist can be heavily altered by a lot of things. We use a scope that's similar to traditional fighters to explain Smash ineffectively. Spacing is a lot more dynamic in Smash due to free movement compared to most but with poor spacing (or exceptional movement from the defender with anticipation) something people assume is completely safe isn't safe, just difficult.

Match ups in MOBAs can be focusing on a lane match up; which are heavily volatile, a small factor (e.g. the opponent got level 2 before you and the team dynamics were you could not afford to make risk, etc etc) can suddenly cause an avalanche that are extensively difficult to quantify. Or in a team fight dynamic which is often easy to pinpoint (team with tons of AOE stuns wins), or in various other interactions; a person may attempt to wrap it all up in "this team has an advantage over that team" but it often comes with the caveat of "if it gets to late game" "if they can baby this character enough", "if they can shut down this character" etc etc. In MOBAs, there are more distinctively counter play based on the various stages of a game, just like in Smash, so they share a lot of similarities.
Olaf in League of Legends at a certain stage of the game (2013? season IIRC) was sub 50% win rates yet at competitive level an opposing team were dedicating 2 to 4 players at any given time to try to starve the Olaf player and despite this the Olaf was still capable of holding them off and becoming a mid to late game monster while his team could abuse this.
In contrast, Le Blanc at certain stages had 55-60%+ win rates in queues but effectively zero win rates at competitive level.
Assuming Riot didn't exist, I'd say most would feel justified banning both characters.

The fact is, that a character a large portion of the populous agrees is broken still didn't average explicitly high win rates because there are a gazillion factors that determine a single match that are outside of the player's (or in Smash's case, character specific) control. The better player/team are going to come out on top and that's not a problem, the games are "balanced enough" around player skill that a better player should still win, and we haven't really seen that many instances of competitive games any time in the past half-decade that unintentionally release things that just strictly cannot be beaten; and you would know this probably better than I do.

Sirlin himself has stated his theories aren't up to date and we're living in a different world now where competitive games have different goals. While the tenets are important there's a lot more to having a successful and healthy competitive game than telling people to get better / 'not be scrubs'. And buggy or unintended interactions are generally a thing of the past as well with most competitive games seeing a patch cycle.
But I'm more than happy to have MOBA dynamics brought up for comparison because that (to me) seems a lot more closer to the types of dynamics that you see in Smash.

Brawl is probably an interesting case study that hasn't been hit with the analytical home-run bat to a level we'd be comfortable with, but it was through a heavy reliance on Sirlin arguments that kept people anti-ban for a period of time which they then regretted. Having experienced all of this and once being a pretty strict sirlin adherent, and so were so so so many people I know and respect, we proved the theory wrong in Brawl but still don't know what the right answer was; many concluded that the game was just too riddled with issues to ever be 'ok' no matter what you do or ban in it. We didn't make the right decisions, either way.
"If we ban meta knight all the people who have dedicated a year(s) into him will be at a disadvantage" <cue tons of threats from players they'll quit if MK is banned> Almost half of the active player base (because that's how common MK was at this stage) blackmailing the rest of us while tournament numbers continued to dwindle; imagine the predicament that was? People are right to be VERY fearful of a similar thing happening again.

Banning Bayonetta now is silly to me because I'm not seeing the overtly negative impacts of Bayo on my scene (or any scene I look over), but I do think if a region is dealing with an issue that is causing a large portion of people to be unhappy, telling them they're wrong is... actually wrong. Her getting banned everywhere is pretty unlikely (just, full stop, unlikely) but if the result of other scenes not doing so ends up being more positive than the scene that does, they're likely to switch back. Nothing tends to be permanent... other than banned stages :<
 
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Shadow Light Master

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Wow, I've learned so much from this thread. On Reddit it's just pure salt and stupidity. Never have I seen such paranoia from a character being represented ONCE in top 8, and TWICE in TOP 32. It's nuts.

Seriously, Fox in Melee is way more dominant than Bayonetta in Smash 4, and no one has banned him.

If Bayonetta truly becomes the Fox of Sm4sh, I hope nobody loses their minds. Because even having 4 Bayonettas in Top 8 still wouldn't be a cause for alarm.
 

Xephilon

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Wish I could add to this thread but everything has already been said...
IMO No one in this game is broken, at most, some are slightly OP but that's it. They're all manageable. What I hate is people listen to ZeRo and everything he says HAS to be true and it's written in stone. No DI is possible, she's easy, toxic, blah blah blah when most of what he said applied more to Pre-patch and Smash in general than just Bayo. For example according to his video:

"Bayonetta carries players"

Every character carries their user to some extent. See Esam video.

"Playing against Bayonetta is Toxic, because it creates an environment where people don't enjoy playing"

Bruh, what about Sheik? ZeRo used a character that's fast, has amazing frame data, amazing combos, kill potential, kill confirms, amazing range AND the best projectile in the game. She can outzone, out-rush and out-camp other characters. Also, he beat Ranai by spamming Dthrow 4 TIMES on the last stock till he finally got the kill, and that's not toxic? That's enjoyable to others? Cause it sure doesn't seem like it to me.

"Adapt, but why do that? When people are forced to adapt something they don't enjoy, they end up quitting."

Uhhh...What did he say to smashboards about Sheik when they were complaining? Oh right, that players are lazy, ignorant and rather complain than learn the matchup (A.K.A. Adapt). Well look at him now!

"Sheik is very difficult character to play, much more than Bayonetta"

Yes, I agree, she is harder to play but she's wasn't that hard to begin with either. Give any decent player a week or two with pre-patch Sheik and they can dominate a ton of players with her. Again, we're talking about the character who rivaled Marth's range, out-rushes Falcon, had kill confirms and camps better than most projectile users. Hard characters to use would be someone like Peach, Megaman or Ryu.

"None of these players suddenly picked up Sheik while having no results and started winning out of nowhere"

Again, while I do agree that Sheik was harder to play, why does he think people didn't pick up Sheik? Well maybe cause they didn't like Sheik? They didn't enjoy playing as her? Just like ZeRo doesn't enjoy Bayo, some people don't enjoy Sheik. Look at Pink Fresh for example. He liked Lucas and was really good with him and stuck with him till Bayo showed up, which was a character that he also liked AND gave him better results. Also, I don't see a lot of No-name bad players rise to tops out of nowhere. I was already top 30 in my region before Bayo, now I'm #15. I just have an easier time getting now rather than I had with Luigi.

"Can't DI out of her combos at all"

Well we already know that this is BS.

etc, etc...
 

Flux0r

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This is kind of worrying.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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If the Smash 4 community bans a character that hasn't won any tourneys, they're going to become a laughing stock.
Probably. But methinks they wouldn't care. Not everyone evaluates the aspects of the game relative to top level play. A large chunk of players are only semi-competitive. They take the game seriously and do strive to get better, but they have limits and prioritize other parts of their lives.
 

Shadow Light Master

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Probably. But methinks they wouldn't care. Not everyone evaluates the aspects of the game relative to top level play. A large chunk of players are only semi-competitive. They take the game seriously and do strive to get better, but they have limits and prioritize other parts of their lives.
I'm not sure what your point is. A character shouldn't be banned because it's sweeping locals. Bayonetta mains need practice too, it's unfair to ban them just because you don't want to put in the work to beat them.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I'm not sure what your point is. A character shouldn't be banned because it's sweeping locals. Bayonetta mains need practice too, it's unfair to ban them just because you don't want to put in the work to beat them.
My point is you can't tell local scenes what to do. Yes, we agree that she shouldn't be banned, but you're talking as if every local competitive Smash scene has raw, unadulterated aspirations to enter the pro circuit. At the height of Melee's growth (before Brawl came out), I attended tournaments that had the wonkiest rule sets: banning wavedashing, legal Temple, best of one sets, games played on super laggy displays, etc. You and I can sit and point and laugh, but I went to a couple of those events. The attendees honestly didn't know any better, and their scene did just fine. As a temporary resident of that scene, I took steps to influence them to adopt better conventions, but I can only do so much.
 

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Lol how hasn't this thread been taken down yet? People say bayo is toxic to the game? **** like this is toxic to the game. Banning a character is lazy. Everyone who thinks she needs to be banned when she literally has ZERO results at a major need to pull their heads out of their *****. You don't ask for a ban on a brand new character when we literally have no idea what she is capable of. I'd be the first to propose a ban if she won every major and 50% of the players in every tourney were Bayonettas. But guess what, that hasn't happened yet. It probably won't either, because she is an outlier in smash and most people don't like how she plays. Contrary to popular belief she isn't actually easy to play either. Many inputs require frame perfect execution at high level play to get those combos that pink fresh and others get. Is she a good charachter? Of ****ing course shes good. Is she the best in the game? Maybe. But if we start banning the best character, when does it end. I personally found sheik toxic to play against, she could literally just camp you with needles in 1.14 and just wait till you could be 50/50'd. I disliked the character, but never asked for a ban. Know why? Because i'm not a ****ing child and I understand that the character has weaknesses and I would do my best to learn the matchup and exploit them instead of taking to social media sites and complaning. I'm serious though, there is no merit for keeping this thread alive, it only serves to validate ignorant people who get 0 to deathed on for glory and think that means anything.
 
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Mad respect to Spain for considering a ban. I believe that no one wants to admit that they're in favor of a ban because they know that they'll never hear the end of it. People can be total dirtbags over opposing opinions (note the post above), and not a lot of people wanna put up with that. But Spain is taking steps towards something that may genuinely help our community. If 80% of a community is unhappy, something needs to change. Right now, Spain is the only one actively trying to fix the problem. (FTR - Telling people to "git gud" or "adapt" is not helping). I'm not saying it's the right way to go about solving this problem, but at least they're trying. Even though she's lacking results, people are sick of her. Even pros. That's almost unheard of in any competitive game. But we have to remember that Sm4sh is NOT supposed to be a competitive game, and we've made changes to make the game as competitive as we can. We've banned items, stages, tactics and customs. Maybe banning a character is what is going to have to happen next. I'm not saying it's the one true solution to this drama, but if it is going to help the community, is it really that bad of an idea?
 

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Mad respect to Spain for considering a ban. I believe that no one wants to admit that they're in favor of a ban because they know that they'll never hear the end of it. People can be total dirtbags over opposing opinions (note the post above), and not a lot of people wanna put up with that. But Spain is taking steps towards something that may genuinely help our community. If 80% of a community is unhappy, something needs to change. Right now, Spain is the only one actively trying to fix the problem. (FTR - Telling people to "git gud" or "adapt" is not helping). I'm not saying it's the right way to go about solving this problem, but at least they're trying. Even though she's lacking results, people are sick of her. Even pros. That's almost unheard of in any competitive game. But we have to remember that Sm4sh is NOT supposed to be a competitive game, and we've made changes to make the game as competitive as we can. We've banned items, stages, tactics and customs. Maybe banning a character is what is going to have to happen next. I'm not saying it's the one true solution to this drama, but if it is going to help the community, is it really that bad of an idea?
Yes mad respect to a region for kowtowing to laziness and naivety. People who want her to be banned are fully capable of voicing their opinions, but reading through them all its pretty obvious that:

1. They don't have a single idea how competetive games work
2. They are just flat out wrong about the character and what she can do.
3. They are dead set in their opinion that she is toxic and should be removed instead of hearing the otherside of the argument.

I'm not being a "dirtbag" I'm being realistic. You play two characters that actually dominate bayonetta in neutral (fox,falcon). Saying that you find her toxic to play against is literally not a reason to have her banned. That is your opinion, nothing more. And that opinion is in the minority. Until bayonetta is everywhere and winning everythig there is no merit to her being banned. And comparing her to banning items and stages? Are you an idiot? They are completely different things. The "pros" aren't sick of her, there are just a few top players who think shes cheap and is too easy to use for how effective she is(Zero, Anti, Mvd come to mind). Not a single pro player worth his salt actually agrees on a ban. I'm second best in my state on the PR and nobody here agrees that shes ban worthy. On the contrary they all understand how the character works because of MU experience and me explaining how to DI and punish bayo's neutral game. So not to be a ****, but you are just flat out wrong on all accounts.
 
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