Balance Philosophy: Zelda

[Necro'lic]

Hi all. This a first in a series I am doing. A series where I go over balance philosophy for a character and how future balance patches should probably work. Obviously these are my opinions and I like discussion.

To understand how to balance a character, one must first understand their philosophy: what strengths and weaknesses were they meant to have, and what purpose would they serve in the metagame. We will be discussing that today with the Princess of Sass Hyrule, Zelda.

Balance Philosophy Series:

Mario/Dr. Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Rosalina and Luma
Bowser Jr.
Wario
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game and Watch
Little Mac
Link
Zelda
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Pit/Dark Pit
Palutena
Marth/Lucina
Ike
Roy
Robin
Duck Hunt
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Pikachu
Charizard
Lucario
Greninja
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
R.O.B
Ness
Lucas
Captain Falcon
Villager
Olimar
Wii Fit Trainer
Shulk
Pac-Man
Mega Man
Sonic
Ryu
Mii Brawler
Mii Swordfighter
Mii Gunner

My take on Zelda:

Purpose: Glass Cannon with mostly defensive prowess/Heavy character in a Light character's body

Strengths should be:

• Kills easily
• Can keep enemies away fantastically
• Good OoS options
• Some comboability

Weaknesses should be:

• Hard to get out of hitstun with
• Abyssmal approach options
• Low range offensive options
• High risks on some moves

Now I understand that the purpose I propose for Zelda is not quite what she turned out to be, but let's face it, Zelda is a cluttered mess at the moment. So, now that we have an outline of what Zelda should do well, and where she should suffer, how do we put this in the game as a whole. This is how I would do it, move by move:

Jab:

• Make it so if the jab is spammed, the magic orbs will perpetually be in front of Zelda, acting as a wall of hitboxes.

This is Zelda's safe on shield move, and has become even safer due to the constant wall of hitboxes emerging in front of her. The key weakness is the high starting lag and the vulnerability of being jumped over, as well as short range.

Dash Attack:

• Increase the late hitbox damage from 6% to 9%
• Make all parts of the first hitbox do 12% damage

Just makes it more streamlined really. Other than that it's fine.

F-tilt:

• Make all parts of the slash do 12% damage
• Decrease start time from 12 frames -> 10 frames

The sourspot is unneeded considering its lack of safety, and the startup reduction can hopefully make it combo more smoothly from Dtilt, Utilt and the like.

U-tilt:

• Fix the uncertainty of followups when it hits in front

Reliability. Everyone needs it.

D-tilt:

• None

Pretty much perfect. Short range offensive option that is still a middling approach option, but makes for a great combo starter.

Forward Smash:

• Fix the obvious. (In case it isn't obvious, fix the uncertainty of finishing the entire move due to Smash DI) Note: May not be as bad as I am letting on
• Make kill potential from ~123% -> ~112%

Playing into the cannon part of glass cannon, and the philosophy of technical heavy character, this should kill much quicker than it does now.

Up Smash:

• Again with the obvious (see Forward Smash)
• Put a hitbox at both her front and back that can capture enemies
• Make kill potential from ~103% -> ~98%

Again, her smashes need to kill early. Also, while the final hitbox does get enemies in the front and back of her, it's certainly not enough.

Down Smash:

• Make angle into a semi-spike (Or at least more like one)
• Get rid of the sourspot
• Base damage from 12%/10% -> 15%/13%
• Reduce startup from 5 frames -> 4 frames

This can be her non-killing smash, where instead it puts the enemy in a terrible position if close to the edge, or comfortably away from Zelda if not. Also a better OoS option, which is what I want for her.

N-Air:

• Reduce the landing lag from 19 frames -> 16 frames

Her quintessential combo move, and a very good one. Still plays off the short range weakness, but less landing lag will make it easier to followup, so yay.

The Lightning Kicks:

• Reduce final animation frames from 53/52 frames -> ~38 frames (Enough so that you can safely use it halfway through a full hop)
• Increase sweetspot radius (Enough so that it can reliably hit *******)
• Increase sourspot base knockback from 5 -> 40

Still want the risk of using on a shield, cause we can't have good brute force options, but if you DO hit, the reward for sweetspot should be more damage, and the reward for sourspot shouldn't hinder you as much as it does now, so it is undeniably safer now with higher base knockback.

U-Air:

• Make kill potential from ~120% -> ~110%
• Increase hitbox size

Not much needed here other than increased defensive ability and increased killing, both of which Zelda should have plenty of.

D-Air:

• None

Pretty much fine. Though I would like meteor smashes to intrinsically be untechable, so stage bounce followups will be a thing. Not specific to this move though.

Grab:

• Longer reach for standing grab only. (Match pivot grab distance)

Zelda ain't about going in, the way I see it, but a better OoS grab will be great. So longer reach means better countering.

F-Throw and B-Throw

• Base knockback on both from 70/80 -> 105/105
• Knockback growth on both from 50/60 -> 40/50

I put both here because their purpose is the same, get the fight back to neutral, which Zelda wants in this case. Even low-percent characters will be sent far back, making them much better at their job.

U-throw

• Reduce base knockback from 40 -> 35
• Increase damage from 11% -> 14%

This was a strange one, since I didn't want it to combo into Farore's Wind at high percents (That would give Zelda a guaranteed throw to kill move, which I didn't want), but still wanted it to be a reliable combo throw at low percents. The damage increase is to make it the combo throw of choice over Down throw at certain points.

D-throw

• None

Along with D-tilt, a combo starter that is good already.

Nayru's Love

• Intangibility frames from 5-12 frames -> 2-24 frames (Throughout the entire diamond animation)

Now we're talking! On demand intangibility for a defensive character is a godsend, and now it last throughout the move, so completely dodge some moves are feasible now.

Din's Fire

• Increase base knockback throughout the move
• Increase kill potential throughout the move (Max from ~140% -> ~100%)
• Increase sourspot radius throughout the move
• Increase sourspot damage from 3-7% -> 6%-10%
• Increase sweetspot damage from 7%-14% -> 10%-17%
• Reduce release animation frames from 40 -> 30
• Increase speed of fire
• GET RID OF THE FREEFALL
• The marker for Din's now has it's own hitbox (0.5% damage, rapidly hits and makes the opponent go backwards)

This needed so much. First off, TO HELL WITH THAT FREEFALL. Next, we have overall better knockback, better damage, better radius, better speed, and best of all, lower endlag. Now it is a more spammable, safer, killing machine. Hopefully.

Added a hitbox to the marker for more reliable keepaway. Now it has some safety even without the protection of the Phantom.

Farore's Wind

• Reduce inactive air frames to 0 (That moment you can't input anything to change your direction)
• Reduce horizontal reappearance endlag from 42 -> 36
• Now has intangibility during the disappearance
• Ground distance increased slightly

A good killing move, a good OoS option, and now a good general mobility and escape tool. Also reduced annoyance, free of charge.

Phantom Slash

• Reduce endlag from 42 -> 29
• Minimum distance Phantom now hits above Zelda at the start of its swing (Will most likely require an animation change)
• Phantom health from 13% to 15%
• Min distance Phantom damage from 6-8% -> 8%-10%
• Med distance Phantom damage from 11%-15% -> 15%-19%
• Max distance Phantom damage from 11.4/13.4% -> 13%/16%
• Make max distance kill potential from ~139% -> ~111%
• Phantom duration from 9/10/22 frames -> 25/25/25 frames
• Phantom now negates focused explosions (e.g. Charizard's Flare Blitz on Phantom will no longer hit Zelda if she is behind it)(Din's Fire is an example of an unfocused explosion)

This I think is where it all comes together. Now I know people have been asking for a storable Phantom, but if you could literally use the Phantom as a wall, I think making it storable would be too much. Plus, it promotes defensive play now that the endlag is puny and the Phantom fully blocks almost everything, including characters that want to jump over the Phantom because of its telegraphed nature. The kill potential and damage is great and to top it off, the Phantom lasts much longer no matter how charged, so you can hide in safety for a while.



Note guys that these are my opinions on how to look at this character, and the best way to do so, but I would love for your opinions. This is a first in a planned series, so feedback is more than welcome.

Also, the Data thread for Zelda was a huge help. Thanks to all my gorls out there!

 

[BJN39]

Hi all. This a first in a series I am doing. A series where I go over balance philosophy for a character and how future balance patches should probably work. Obviously these are my opinions and I like discussion.

To understand how to balance a character, one must first understand their philosophy: what strengths and weaknesses were they meant to have, and what purpose would they serve in the metagame. We will be discussing that today with the Princess of Sass Hyrule, Zelda.

Note guys that these are my opinions on how to look at this character, and the best way to do so, but I would love for your opinions. This is a first in a planned series, so feedback is more than welcome.

Also, the Data thread for Zelda was a huge help. Thanks to all my gorls out there!

Winning points here with that

I hope you don't mind if I put a little bit of my take on these ideas. For the most part they seem agreeable and some are even just like ideas I had had, there were a couple data mixups I would like to note first:

Forward Smash:
Fix the obvious. (In case it isn't obvious, fix the uncertainty of finishing the entire move due to Smash DI
Up Smash:
Again with the obvious (see Forward Smash)

Firstly it should be noted that since patch 1.0.6 for Fsmash, and patch 1.0.8 for Usmash, both of these attacks are extremely reliable now at correctly connecting all hits, (I can't think of a single time since 1.0.8 release that either of these moves have failed me.) so this would simply have already been accomplished!

F-Throw and B-Throw
Base knockback on both from 40/40 -> 105/105
Knockback growth on both from 100/100 -> 75/75
U-throw
Reduce base knockback from 40 -> 35

There was a mixup on the data used here. The KB stats for these three throws are actually
Fthrow - BKB:70 / KBG:50
Bthrow - BKB:80 / KBG:60
Uthrow - BKB:50 / KBG:60

The wrong data was just taken from the tables for example, but the general idea of increasing the KB, and cosequently the KO power of her Fthrow and Bthrow is something I'd enjoy.

A general "Increase hitstun" would be accomplished by raising the BKB (iirc) specifically, or a damage increase. Take note though a damage increase would be far less effective, and also mess up combo ability ranges some, since damage figures into the KO power timing formula. That also stands that if its damage were just jumped up to 14%, it would probably need at least KBG decreases to not make it KO overly early.

Din's Fire
Reduce min distance release animation frames from 71 -> 30
Farore's Wind
Reduce horizontal reappearance endlag from 42 -> 28
Phantom Slash
Reduce endlag from 42 -> 29
Reduce min distance endlag from 67 -> 29

Another note is that the "Minimum distance" First Actionable Frames are basically the minimum startup plus the release animation, (Which includes the hitting period.) so the numbers here would be unrealistically low. For example, the Phantom release reduction would automatically reduce the minimum distance FAF from 67 to 54. The same applies to Din's Fire. Reducing the release animation FAF would automatically reduce the minimum distance FAF.

With Farore's I just think this number would be imbalancedly low. The move has massive reappear endlag for the purpose of balancing the huge KO power of the reappear hit. To have that FAF there would be no way its KO power would be sticking around. Which would in turn also likely mean a KB nerf to aerial reappear's KB to keep it cohesive, which would massively hurt FW elevator.

My take on Zelda:

Purpose: Glass Cannon with mostly defensive prowess/Heavy character in a Light character's body

Strengths should be:

• Kills easily ~ Ehh somewhat.
• Can keep enemies away fantastically ~ Doesn't do that.
• Good OoS options ~ Lol no doesn't have that yet.
• Some comboability ~ This I would give a pass already.

Weaknesses should be:

• Hard to get out of hitstun with ~ Well, she's easily juggled. x_o
• Abyssmal approach options ~ Already set.
• Low range offensive options ~ Also already happening smh.
• High risks on some moves ~ RN it's almost high risk on ALL moves, lol.

Just some thoughts when I read this. Move along, nothing here, lol.

F-tilt:
Decrease start time from 12 frames -> 10 frames

U-tilt:
Fix the uncertainty of followups when it hits in front

N-Air:
Reduce the landing lag from 19 frames -> 16 frames
U-Air:
Make kill potential from ~120% -> ~110%
Increase hitbox size

These are ones I fully agree with. I see them all as at least somewhat possible, too. Going by Sakurai's record atm, which is getting better.
For Utilt some KB edits could fix up that combo ability slighty. A little more BKB and less KBG would do it. UAir would basically go back to roughly Brawl's power utility.

Forward Smash:
Make kill potential from ~123% -> ~91%
Up Smash:
Make kill potential from ~103% -> ~95%
The Lightning Kicks:
Reduce final animation frames from 53/52 frames -> ~38 frames (Enough so that you can safely use it halfway through a full hop)
Increase sweetspot damage from 20% -> 25%
Increase sourspot base knockback from 5 -> 30

Grab:
Longer reach for standing grab only. (Match pivot grab distance)

These are some changes I'm a little iffy on.

Some of these potential KO percent or, KB increases to do this are kind of crazy strong. The numbers taken are already on a decently mid weight character doing every possible input to resist KO. While these numbers don't 'look' good, they actually represent pretty good KO potential. Fsmash, Usmash, and LKs as they are are already actually really good in terms of KO power. Any KB increase might start getting irrational. The damage increase on LKs also seems a little much to me. As it is the very first thing that should get addressed for the sweet-spots imo is their size, which I think could be slightly increased. That damage would be incomparably large. Also again KB edits would be in order to rebalance the KO percent.

Most of the other things not highlighted I don't really have comments on.

I like this idea, and if people have good discussion from it then all the better! ^ ^

 

[Necro'lic]

Winning points here with that

I hope you don't mind if I put a little bit of my take on these ideas. For the most part they seem agreeable and some are even just like ideas I had had, there were a couple data mixups I would like to note first:



Firstly it should be noted that since patch 1.0.6 for Fsmash, and patch 1.0.8 for Usmash, both of these attacks are extremely reliable now at correctly connecting all hits, (I can't think of a single time since 1.0.8 release that either of these moves have failed me.) so this would simply have already been accomplished!

Really? They can be a mixed bag for me, especially if a character is coming from above.

There was a mixup on the data used here. The KB stats for these three throws are actually
Fthrow - BKB:70 / KBG:50
Bthrow - BKB:80 / KBG:60
Uthrow - BKB:50 / KBG:60

The wrong data was just taken from the tables for example, but the general idea of increasing the KB, and cosequently the KO power of her Fthrow and Bthrow is something I'd enjoy.

A general "Increase hitstun" would be accomplished by raising the BKB (iirc) specifically, or a damage increase. Take note though a damage increase would be far less effective, and also mess up combo ability ranges some, since damage figures into the KO power timing formula. That also stands that if its damage were just jumped up to 14%, it would probably need at least KBG decreases to not make it KO overly early.

Noted.

Another note is that the "Minimum distance" First Actionable Frames are basically the minimum startup plus the release animation, (Which includes the hitting period.) so the numbers here would be unrealistically low. For example, the Phantom release reduction would automatically reduce the minimum distance FAF from 67 to 54. The same applies to Din's Fire. Reducing the release animation FAF would automatically reduce the minimum distance FAF.

Noted as well. Just assume the basic ending lag changes then.

With Farore's I just think this number would be imbalancedly low. The move has massive reappear endlag for the purpose of balancing the huge KO power of the reappear hit. To have that FAF there would be no way its KO power would be sticking around. Which would in turn also likely mean a KB nerf to aerial reappear's KB to keep it cohesive, which would massively hurt FW elevator.

Did not think about that. I mostly equated going across the ground as an escape tool rather than an offensive one, but it is still hilariously unsafe even with the new endlag, so I'll let it slide.

Just some thoughts when I read this. Move along, nothing here, lol.

Note that I say "Strengths/Weaknesses SHOULD BE", not Strengths/Weaknesses ARE. The point of this hypothetical series is to make a game plan of character design and stick with it. I know Zelda's strengths/weaknesses aren't exactly what is stated, but I thought this to be a good game plan for her.

These are ones I fully agree with. I see them all as at least somewhat possible, too. Going by Sakurai's record atm, which is getting better.
For Utilt some KB edits could fix up that combo ability slighty. A little more BKB and less KBG would do it. UAir would basically go back to roughly Brawl's power utility.

Thanks for thinking so.

These are some changes I'm a little iffy on.

Some of these potential KO percent or, KB increases to do this are kind of crazy strong. The numbers taken are already on a decently mid weight character doing every possible input to resist KO. While these numbers don't 'look' good, they actually represent pretty good KO potential. Fsmash, Usmash, and LKs as they are are already actually really good in terms of KO power. Any KB increase might start getting irrational.

The overall point was to make her smashes 'feel' like a heavy character's smash attacks. I will say I might have gone overboard. Still not used to those estimations.

The damage increase on LKs also seems a little much to me. As it is the very first thing that should get addressed for the sweet-spots imo is their size, which I think could be slightly increased.

I was against this because I still want the precision to be present. However, I realized it's near impossible to hit short characters, so I may rethink this one.

That damage would be incomparably large. Also again KB edits would be in order to rebalance the KO percent.

The KB is on the sourspot though, and solely to make it so hitting the sourspot doesn't barely push the enemy, but instead makes it rather safe.

Most of the other things not highlighted I don't really have comments on.

I like this idea, and if people have good discussion from it then all the better! ^ ^

My stuff in bold. Thanks for your feedback.

 

[BJN39]

Note that I say "Strengths/Weaknesses SHOULD BE", not Strengths/Weaknesses ARE. The point of this hypothetical series is to make a game plan of character design and stick with it. I know Zelda's strengths/weaknesses aren't exactly what is stated, but I thought this to be a good game plan for her.

Oh yeah I fully understood what it was, they were just some things going through my mind when I looked at them, kind of like what was already going on atm. I just meant that to be a little silly.

The KB is on the sourspot though, and solely to make it so hitting the sourspot doesn't barely push the enemy, but instead makes it rather safe.

Oh, I missed addressing that I agreed with the KB improvements to the sour-spot completely, the sweet-spots would be the only ones needing a KB touch up just to keep the move from breaking statistically and starting to kill at silly percents like 60% under the same criteria as the previous 96% number due to a raw damage increase.

 

[Zylach]

I guess one thing I'd point out is that you note her as being a glass cannon which I agree with. Zelda is very much intended to be a glass cannon. That said, the fact that she has short range on her attacks is silly given the archetype of a glass cannon is to not get too close to danger. Honestly, the main changes Zelda needs in my opinion are range buffs. The most important of these would be nair as it's basically Zelda's only spacing tool that keeps her mobile. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with giving her nair something like half of what Marth's nair is. Currently, Zelda's palms have to be slapping the opponent for it to hit and that doesn't fit the archetype of glass cannon very well. I would also prefer a small range buff to Nayru's Love to, at the very least, match the animation (Those crystals go out much further than the hitbox does). I'd also prefer a small range buff to jab (I know it just got one but a tiny bit more vertical reach would be ideal). The same goes for fsmash and ftilt which trade too often with other attacks for me to be comfortable with the disjoints on them especially because fsmash loses all trades and the moderate disjoint we have on it makes it so trades happen more often than they should on a glass cannon character.

I agree that endlag on Zelda's "projectiles" needs to be reduced in order for her to actually play keep away like she ought to. The lag on those moves keeps her from using them reliably and, instead, makes them risky just like everything else in her arsenal currently. I don't think the lag reductions should be so drastic though. At max, a reduction of 10 frames would be amazing. At minimum, a reduction of 5 frames would suffice. That's for both Din's and phantom.

I feel like Zelda was initially designed to be reliant on disjointed multihits. It's not just that she hits hard while being fragile herself. Her entire gameplan revolves around utilizing the most multihit attacks of any character (I cannot confirm the truth of this statement but I'm keeping it). This is one of the reasons I picked her up because these kinds of moves do such a good job at stuffing approaches, beating defensive options like rolls, spotdodges, airdodges, creating landing traps, covering ledge getup options, etc. I still kinda wish that Zelda's fair was swapped out for a heavily disjointed multihit move like Ness' but that'll never happen. Basically, I feel like that's something to add to her design choices.

 

[Necro'lic]

I guess one thing I'd point out is that you note her as being a glass cannon which I agree with. Zelda is very much intended to be a glass cannon. That said, the fact that she has short range on her attacks is silly given the archetype of a glass cannon is to not get too close to danger. Honestly, the main changes Zelda needs in my opinion are range buffs. The most important of these would be nair as it's basically Zelda's only spacing tool that keeps her mobile. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with giving her nair something like half of what Marth's nair is. Currently, Zelda's palms have to be slapping the opponent for it to hit and that doesn't fit the archetype of glass cannon very well. I would also prefer a small range buff to Nayru's Love to, at the very least, match the animation (Those crystals go out much further than the hitbox does). I'd also prefer a small range buff to jab (I know it just got one but a tiny bit more vertical reach would be ideal). The same goes for fsmash and ftilt which trade too often with other attacks for me to be comfortable with the disjoints on them especially because fsmash loses all trades and the moderate disjoint we have on it makes it so trades happen more often than they should on a glass cannon character.

I agree that endlag on Zelda's "projectiles" needs to be reduced in order for her to actually play keep away like she ought to. The lag on those moves keeps her from using them reliably and, instead, makes them risky just like everything else in her arsenal currently. I don't think the lag reductions should be so drastic though. At max, a reduction of 10 frames would be amazing. At minimum, a reduction of 5 frames would suffice. That's for both Din's and phantom.

I feel like Zelda was initially designed to be reliant on disjointed multihits. It's not just that she hits hard while being fragile herself. Her entire gameplan revolves around utilizing the most multihit attacks of any character (I cannot confirm the truth of this statement but I'm keeping it). This is one of the reasons I picked her up because these kinds of moves do such a good job at stuffing approaches, beating defensive options like rolls, spotdodges, airdodges, creating landing traps, covering ledge getup options, etc. I still kinda wish that Zelda's fair was swapped out for a heavily disjointed multihit move like Ness' but that'll never happen. Basically, I feel like that's something to add to her design choices.

I hear you, the glass cannon archetype she doesn't fit currently, but I tried to compensate with a ridiculous amount of keepaway and defense. Though she does fit the literal description of glass cannon since she has good kill moves (cannon) and can be screwed horrible with fewer mistakes than other characters (glass). However, a glass cannon doesn't have to be intrinsically offensive, and that was what I thought made this character philosophy unique. She is a defensive glass cannon. (The offensive glass cannon archetype was actually going to be Mewtwo, but that's for another day)

Overall, I wanted her general tactics to be this:

If enemy is far, hide behind Phantom and harass with Din's or Farore's.
Approaching enemy? You could Nayru's or FW to get away.
Enemy stays at mid range outside of your general attack range? Phantom and wait for a jump.
Enemy attack your shield at close range? D-tilt, D-throw, U-throw and start comboing.
Enemy attack shield at a range higher than those three moves? You are screwed.
All while you have OoS Farore's, Lightning Kicks, and your smashes to finish the job when needed.

You want to keep your enemies out of the mid range, and Phantom would be the most important move for this strategy. Then either send it back to neutral if they get too close using your throws or a FW escape, or start comboing the ever-loving crap out of them. Once they're ready to die, FW, smash, or LK.

Her main weakness is mid range, where her regular moves don't reach, but her Din's and Phantom can't reliably hit, either. This is why I kept her short range as a weakness, because it better emphasizes the general weakness I wanted her to have.

 

[Zylach]

I hear you, the glass cannon archetype she doesn't fit currently, but I tried to compensate with a ridiculous amount of keepaway and defense. Though she does fit the literal description of glass cannon since she has good kill moves (cannon) and can be screwed horrible with fewer mistakes than other characters (glass). However, a glass cannon doesn't have to be intrinsically offensive, and that was what I thought made this character philosophy unique. She is a defensive glass cannon. (The offensive glass cannon archetype was actually going to be Mewtwo, but that's for another day)

Overall, I wanted her general tactics to be this:

If enemy is far, hide behind Phantom and harass with Din's or Farore's.
Approaching enemy? You could Nayru's or FW to get away.
Enemy stays at mid range outside of your general attack range? Phantom and wait for a jump.
Enemy attack your shield at close range? D-tilt, D-throw, U-throw and start comboing.
Enemy attack shield at a range higher than those three moves? You are screwed.
All while you have OoS Farore's, Lightning Kicks, and your smashes to finish the job when needed.

You want to keep your enemies out of the mid range, and Phantom would be the most important move for this strategy. Then either send it back to neutral if they get too close using your throws or a FW escape, or start comboing the ever-loving crap out of them. Once they're ready to die, FW, smash, or LK.

I like the idea of spacing with phantom but it shouldn't be her only spacing tool since keeping opponents out is what a defensive glass cannon ought to do and having only one option for that job isn't exactly filling the role. Having defensive options outside of a projectile that kills her at 60% if reflected are necessary since only having that option is bad design and the quickest way to make reflector characters absolute hard counters to Zelda. I guess I'm thinking of a Link archetype but more fragile, utilizing multihit disjoints to stuff approaches while being able to rack up a ton of damage in fewer hits, using heavier hitting projectiles, and killing early.

 

[Necro'lic]

I like the idea of spacing with phantom but it shouldn't be her only spacing tool since keeping opponents out is what a defensive glass cannon ought to do and having only one option for that job isn't exactly filling the role. Having defensive options outside of a projectile that kills her at 60% if reflected are necessary since only having that option is bad design and the quickest way to make reflector characters absolute hard counters to Zelda. I guess I'm thinking of a Link archetype but more fragile, utilizing multihit disjoints to stuff approaches while being able to rack up a ton of damage in fewer hits, using heavier hitting projectiles, and killing early.

Using the Phantom as a wall really only needs the minimum charge, while the full or med charges are used more for attacking at longer ranges, in which case plan accordingly. But if they can reflect the Phantom from its MINIMUM distance into Zelda, then they were already in about mid range, which is where my design of Zelda is meant to struggle.

Unless there are projectiles that reflect that I am not aware of, in which case, dammit

Edit: Forgot to say you could always use the new and improved Nayru's if the Phantom is down for instance.

 

[Zylach]

Using the Phantom as a wall really only needs the minimum charge, while the full or med charges are used more for attacking at longer ranges, in which case plan accordingly. But if they can reflect the Phantom from its MINIMUM distance into Zelda, then they were already in about mid range, which is where my design of Zelda is meant to struggle.

Unless there are projectiles that reflect that I am not aware of, in which case, dammit

Edit: Forgot to say you could always use the new and improved Nayru's if the Phantom is down for instance.

I suppose a safer FW get-out-of-jail option would help as well.

 

[Necro'lic]

I suppose a safer FW get-out-of-jail option would help as well.

HOLY CRAP HOW DID I NOT SEE THAT.

brb editing Farore's Wind changes

 

[ZombieBran]

I have to agree that Zelda needs some slight range on her laggier normals, smashes, and aerials. Aside from a design and balance perspective (it's glass cannon, not glass dagger) it also just looks pitiful when Zelda bends forward so much and her sparkles stop just a short distance away. If Din's was effective at long range, Zelda's mediocre range on her normals would be acceptable. But it's not and given by Sakurai's track record, it never will be.

Fsmash either needs a slight range increase or a slight KB increase somewhere. BTW I've never had Fsmash fail on me since the patch but Usmash has. Though it's been a long while.

Usmash needs a range and KB increase, as it's still barely worth the risk. High risk meh reward does not an effective character make.

 

[Necro'lic]

I have to agree that Zelda needs some slight range on her laggier normals, smashes, and aerials. Aside from a design and balance perspective (it's glass cannon, not glass dagger) it also just looks pitiful when Zelda bends forward so much and her sparkles stop just a short distance away.

Fsmash either needs a slight range increase or a slight KB increase somewhere.

I've never had Fsmash fail on me since the patch but Usmash has. Though it's been a long while.

Usmash a range and KB increase, as it's still barely worth the risk. High risk meh reward does not an effective character make.

Thanks for the feedback first of all.

Second, I have always seen Fsmash as pretty good range, considering Zelda's other attacks. I did give a KB increase in the form of more kill power however.

Third, I specifically was against giving Zelda any more range than needed due to the design plan I picked out for her. I am confident that the other changes here would more than compensate for her piddly range.

 

[ZombieBran]

Thanks for the feedback first of all.

Second, I have always seen Fsmash as pretty good range, considering Zelda's other attacks. I did give a KB increase in the form of more kill power however.

Third, I specifically was against giving Zelda any more range than needed due to the design plan I picked out for her. I am confident that the other changes here would more than compensate for her piddly range.

I agree your changes might mitigate the need for range. I'd just like more range because it fits her design.

Both less lag and more range would be best and lets face it, she'd be mid tier at best even with all these buffs

Her Fsmash has good range compared to many of her other normals but it doesn't match the animation; it's quite a bit smaller than the burst of gfx. I don't know, that just bothers me immensely. Considering the lag it has and only slightly better than average kill power, more range would make it better but not too much better.

 

[Necro'lic]

I agree your changes might mitigate the need for range. I'd just like more range because it fits her design.

Both less lag and more range would be best and lets face it, she'd be mid tier at best even with all these buffs

Her Fsmash has good range compared to many of her other normals but it doesn't match the animation; it's quite a bit smaller than the burst of gfx. I don't know, that just bothers me immensely. Considering the lag it has and only slightly better than average kill power, more range would make it better but not too much better.

Red flag!

I'm not sure if it's the general pessimism of the Zelda boards talking here, or you truly think that, but it does worry me.

The overarching character balance philosophy that I have in mind is the good ol' "If everyone is OP, no one is" sort of approach. If it doesn't seem like Zelda can hold her own where she can, then I guess I just have to make more changes.

 

[ZombieBran]

I think it's realistic to say that she'll never pass mid tier without a Din's overhaul and assortment of buffs, like in PM. And even there she's considered mediocre.

It's unlikely that she'll get anything near that level of buffing and it's almost confirmed that Din's will stay failtastic. I might be pessimistic but I think it's heavily justified in the case of Zelda.

I'm okay with perma-low tier Queen Zelda. I just want a functioning design.

 

[Necro'lic]

I think it's realistic to say that she'll never pass mid tier without a Din's overhaul and assortment of buffs, like in PM. And even there she's considered mediocre.

It's unlikely that she'll get anything near that level of buffing and it's almost confirmed that Din's will stay failtastic. I might be pessimistic but I think it's heavily justified in the case of Zelda.

I'm okay with perma-low tier Queen Zelda. I just want a functioning design.

Din's overhaul you say?
I have an idea.

 

[ZombieBran]

She needs a projectile to throw out the most, I think, since she has no approach and because what kind of defensive character has no viable projectile?

I look forward to Balanced Sm4sh mod where she can slide with Nayru's Din's actually hits

 

[Necro'lic]

Changes thus far.

Forward Smash and Up Smash:

• Reduced kill potential increase to a more reasonable number

The Lightning Kicks:

• Removed the sweetspot damage increase
• Increased sweetspot radius

U-throw:

• Hitstun increase removed

Din's Fire

• Added a hitbox on the marker (0.5% damage, rapidly hits and makes the opponent go backwards)

Farore's Wind

• Slightly reduced the overall decrease of ground reappearance endlag
• Added more ground distance
• Added intangibility to disappearance

 

[PUK]

Changes thus far.

Forward Smash and Up Smash:

• Reduced kill potential increase to a more reasonable number

The Lightning Kicks:

• Removed the sweetspot damage increase
• Increased sweetspot radius

U-throw:

• Hitstun increase removed

Din's Fire

• Added a hitbox on the marker (0.5% damage, rapidly hits and makes the opponent go backwards)

Farore's Wind

• Slightly reduced the overall decrease of ground reappearance endlag
• Added more ground distance
• Added intangibility to disappearance

I don't understand what it means. You want more damage or less?
Ah ok just edit your first post, with the old and new values