Balance Philosophy: Robin

[Necro'lic]

Hi all. This is a series where we go over my balance proposals and changes for certain characters. Obviously these are my opinions and I do like discussion.

To understand how to balance a character, one must first understand their philosophy: what strengths and weaknesses were they meant to have, and what purpose would they serve in the metagame. We will be discussing that today with the greatest strategist this side of Ylisse, Robin.

Balance Philosophy Series:

Mario/Dr. Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Rosalina and Luma
Bowser Jr.
Wario
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game and Watch
Little Mac
Link
Zelda
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Pit/Dark Pit
Palutena
Marth/Lucina
Ike
Roy
Robin
Duck Hunt
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Pikachu
Charizard
Lucario
Greninja
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
R.O.B
Ness
Lucas
Captain Falcon
Villager
Olimar
Wii Fit Trainer
Shulk
Pac-Man
Mega Man
Sonic
Ryu
Mii Brawler
Mii Swordfighter
Mii Gunner

My take on Robin:

Purpose: Offensive and defensive prowess/Creates traps/Punish heavy

Strengths should be:

• A general control of enemy movement
• Good stage control
• Good projectile game
• Above-average kill potential

Weaknesses should be:

• Slow
• Few true combos/relies on small baits to deal consistent damage
• Traps become risky if used too much (Tome mechanic)
• No safe on shield options

Robin is the first in this series that I actually don't play much of at all. However, seeing tournament matches and For Glory can help a ton when discussing this. I think I have enough down pat to do some tweaks here and there, but I'll need all the Robin mains out there to help me with this.

Robin I see as an advanced trapping character, constantly figuring out the opponent's every move and using his/her resources accordingly. As such, I want trapping and baiting to be the core essence of this character, which means both in offensive and defensive situations. We need weaknesses though, and the Tomes, lack of safe on shield options, and being the slowest character in the game are already things that Robin suffers from, so this should be easier on me.

With that in mind...

Jab:

• Rapid jab now uses one Wind tome charge, regardless of how long it happens.

Not a big change, just something that I saw that bothered me. Move along.

Dash Attack:

• First hitbox activity from 8 frames -> ~4 frames (Or the moment the sword is drawn)
• Increase the speed of Robin's lunge forward
• Last hitbox deactivation from 18 frames -> ~25 frames (Or when the sword is brought back to Robin's side)

Fixed up those strange blindspots at the beginning and end, so the sword is constantly the hurtbox throughout the move. Plus, with the faster lunge, Robin goes further and thus has a better chance to crossup the enemy. Still not safe on shield though.

F-tilt:

• Increase base knockback from 50 -> 70
• Decrease endlag from 33 frames -> 20 frames

A general increase in knockback and decrease in lag makes this both a better keepaway, and a better setup into Elfire or Thunder. Should also be safe on shield at this point.

U-tilt:

• Reduce endlag from 36 frames -> 26 frames

Needs lower recovery to account for short comings of range and damage.

D-tilt:

• Range increase

Other than this, what does it need to do other than be a pressure move.

Forward Smash:

• Levin's sparks should fly farther out in front of Robin with their own hitboxes (2% damage, Sakurai Angle)
• Reduce endlag from 55 frames -> 47 frames
• Reduce Levin's early hitbox damage from 16% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%

Oh boy, our first nerf by my hand. (Just wait until the Shiek board sees what I have for them )

The sparks add a layer of protection throughout the move, and combined with the lower endlag, it is less risky overall. But with that, comes kill power reduction in the form of less damage, but at least the late hitbox is better right?

Up Smash:

• Both Bronze and Levin's now have a frontal hitbox for the sword (Roughly to match the animation)
• Reduce Levin's early hitbox damage from 15% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Reduce endlag from 53 frames -> 44 frames

Same overall treatment as FSmash, except way better endlag and the Bronze now doesn't completely miss in the front.

Down Smash:

• Reduce endlag from 62 frames -> 52 frames
• Reduce Levin's damage from 15%/12% -> 14.5%/10%

Again, the same overall concept for his smash attacks. Less risk, slightly less reward.

N-Air:

• Autocancel window increased from 34> -> 27> (Right after the second slash)
• Add autocancel window at 13-20 frames (In between the slashes)
• Increase damage from 7%/7% -> 8%/8%

This move is really weird to me, but apparently the Robin mains want better autocancels, so here you go! Should make for interesting followups.

Forward Air:

• Increase Levin's early hitbox damage from 11% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Reduce Levin's kill potential from ~140% -> 135%

I wanted to do so much more with this, like less landing lag, less end lag, better autocancel window, but they would have probably made it too spammable, so I chose the safer option. Also, it kills slightly later, but shouldn't be too much hassle considering the buffs his specials will have.

Back Air:

• Reduce Levin's early damage hitbox from 15% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Reduce end lag from 40 frames -> 36 frames

You may have already noticed the trend I am putting up. Mostly the consistency of the Levin's Sword damage. This is mainly so there is less favoring certain moves for the Levin's usage, mostly BAir vs FAir. Now they are about even in effectiveness.

Up Air:

• Increase Levin's early damage hitbox from 13% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
  
• Reduce kill potential from ~110% -> ~120%
• Autocancel window increased from 27> -> 22> (Autocancel starts even before last hitbox ends!)

This is a good aerial already, but the autocancel was needed for more offensive prowess. In exchange, some kill potential. Probably worth it.

Down Air:

• Increase Levin's early and meteor hitbox damage from 10%/12% -> 14.5%/14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Autocancel window increased from 48> -> 40>

Not much to say here. Autocancel window increase because why not?

Grab:

• None

Considering the better autocancel on the aerials and the better protection the smashes give, I think it's safe to keep the crappy grab to make sure his/her offensive prowess isn't through the roof.

Forward Throw:

• Decrease base knockback and knockback growth from 26/25 -> 20/19
• Angle changed from 45 -> 30

The point of these changes is to turn forward throw into a techchase scenario. Hopefully this is how to change it but that's the intention.

Back Throw:

• None

BThrow is the good ol stay away throw, and it works fine now.

Up Throw:

• Decrease base knockback and knockback growth from 100/30 -> 70/10
• Increase damage from 8% -> 11%

An aerial punish scenario. Unlike FThrow, it is more consistent regardless of percent. Also more damage.

Down Throw:

• None

As of now, this combos into some things for a little bit. Originally thought about increasing knockback growth so it couldn't combo into UAir for kills, but considering Robin's subpar grab, I'll let it slide.

Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron:

• Reduce endlag on all forms from 43/55/55/62 -> 34/50/50/57
• Increase charge speed to Elthunder from ~0.75 seconds -> 0.5 seconds
• Increase speed of Arcthunder to match Elthunder
• Slightly increase Arcthunder trap duration by ~0.4 seconds
• Increase Thoron kill potential from ~120% -> ~110%
• Increase Tome uses from 20 -> 24
• Increase Tome recovery from 12 seconds -> 15 seconds

A lot of changes here, hopefully to give more purpose to each form of Thunder. The first should be about a quick hit used for pressure, so the endlag is decreased more significantly than the others. Elthunder is the "normal" style projectile to me, so I shortened its charge time to make it more on demand than it is now. Arcthunder should be the trapping projectile, so I increased the trap duration for obvious reasons. Thoron is the killing/stage control projectile, which it does fine enough, but I thought more kill power wouldn't hurt. Finally, the Tome timer is increased to make it more of a commitment, but 4 more uses means a few more Thunders here and there.

Arcfire:

• Reduce endlag from 64 frames -> 60 frames
• Arcfire projectile now lasts twice as long (Can most likely hit the ground now even if fired while in the air)
• Make projectile faster

These changes are mostly for helping with jumping Arcfires and overall making it a safer move.

Elwind:

• The two boosts are now independent (now only pressing after the first will do the second one)
• The first boost does not put Robin in freefall and now sends enemies upwards if they hit the wind. (The angle of this knockback should make it combo into the second one)
• Increase Tome uses from 18 -> 24

Now there is a choice of recovery like it usually has, or a downward wind slash that brings enemies up with you. Can be used for mixups.

Nosferatu:

• Decrease Tome recovery from 40 seconds -> 20 seconds
• Get rid of the freefall on a successful hit

And I thought the freefall on Din's Fire was pointless. We'll take that out. Also, decreased Tome recovery, yay!



So yeah. If you like these changes, feel free to discuss. Like I said, I'm not a Robin player, but I really like seeing the character in tournaments. If there is anything I missed or messed up, feel free to correct me.

 

[PK Gaming]

You're off base about his pros and cons

For cons, you neglected to mention that his defense is abysmal. Robin really has no answer to rushdown and is extremely vulnerable to getting juggled. I also wouldn't say Robin has good stage control either; he's simply too slow to control every aspect of the stage. He can put the pressure on the opponent with his projectiles, sure and that's certainly a point in his favor, but it's different from say... Sheik who dominates the field with her normals.

Some of your changes are questionable as well. A few of them feel arbitrary (how is dropping Arcfire's endlag by 4 going to make a substantial difference?) or they miss the point (ftilt needs more range, not knockback) or downright asinine (you're nerfing down throw?!)

 

[Pazzo.]

Interesting ideas.

I'm not too fond of D-Throw loosing a little of its current power, especially with Robin's short/slow grab.

 

[Necro'lic]

You're off base about his pros and cons

For cons, you neglected to mention that his defense is abysmal. Robin really has no answer to rushdown and is extremely vulnerable to getting juggled. I also wouldn't say Robin has good stage control either; he's simply too slow to control every aspect of the stage. He can put the pressure on the opponent with his projectiles, sure and that's certainly a point in his favor, but it's different from say... Sheik who dominates the field with her normals.

Some of your changes are questionable as well. A few of them feel arbitrary (how is dropping Arcfire's endlag by 4 going to make a substantial difference?) or they miss the point (ftilt needs more range, not knockback) or downright asinine (you're nerfing down throw?!)

Well, can't be on the ball on everything I guess.

In terms of abysmal defense, that was what a lot of the endlag reductions were for, including that Arcfire buff. It was also for better reaction when you actually do hit someone, but if Robin can already do everything possible on a hit confirm, then it gives less punishment for missing. At least that was the idea.

As for ftilt, I don't really want to go against the animations that are already present in the game, and more range on ftilt would go against that.

Lastly, down throw. In keeping with the plan of "Few combos" I thought that the combo into UAir was a bit much. I didn't take into account how bad Robin's grab is though, so I might just leave it as is.

Like I said, I'm not a Robin player. I only know the most basic of knowledge. Thanks for the feedback though.

 

[Necro'lic]

Changed a bit of stuff

Edit: Decided to clearly show changes in new posts.

F-tilt:

• Endlag now reduced to 20 frames

U-tilt:

• Reduce endlag from 36 frames -> 26 frames

Down Throw:

• Removed the change to knockback growth

 

[LochTessMonster]

I've got a lot of thoughts on what would hurt and help Robin, i'll just jot down my thoughts on your proposed changes right now.

Forward Smash:

• Levin's sparks should fly farther out in front of Robin with their own hitboxes (2% damage, Sakurai Angle)
• Reduce endlag from 55 frames -> 47 frames
• Reduce Levin's early hitbox damage from 16% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%

Oh boy, our first nerf by my hand. (Just wait until the Shiek board sees what I have for them )

The sparks add a layer of protection throughout the move, and combined with the lower endlag, it is less risky overall. But with that, comes kill power reduction in the form of less damage, but at least the late hitbox is better right?

Up Smash:

• Both Bronze and Levin's now have a frontal hitbox for the sword (Roughly to match the animation)
• Reduce Levin's early hitbox damage from 15% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Reduce endlag from 53 frames -> 44 frames

Same overall treatment as FSmash, except way better endlag and the Bronze now doesn't completely miss in the front.

Down Smash:

• Reduce endlag from 62 frames -> 52 frames
• Reduce Levin's damage from 15%/12% -> 14.5%/10%

Again, the same overall concept for his smash attacks. Less risk, slightly less reward.

I see what you're trying to do here, the problem is Robin has difficulty landing her smash attacks in the first place, considering she runs like a pig stuck in mud. Increasing the damage on the late hit boxes probably wouldn't help much at all, maybe an increase in how long it lasts. I don't have a huge problem with this until we get into the aerial changes.....

Forward Air:

• Increase Levin's early hitbox damage from 11% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Reduce Levin's kill potential from ~140% -> 135%

I wanted to do so much more with this, like less landing lag, less end lag, better autocancel window, but they would have probably made it too spammable, so I chose the safer option. Also, it kills slightly later, but shouldn't be too much hassle considering the buffs his specials will have.

Back Air:

• Reduce Levin's early damage hitbox from 15% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Reduce end lag from 40 frames -> 36 frames

You may have already noticed the trend I am putting up. Mostly the consistency of the Levin's Sword damage. This is mainly so there is less favoring certain moves for the Levin's usage, mostly BAir vs FAir. Now they are about even in effectiveness.

Up Air:

• Increase Levin's early damage hitbox from 13% -> 14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
  
• Reduce kill potential from ~110% -> ~120%
• Autocancel window increased from 27> -> 22> (Autocancel starts even before last hitbox ends!)

This is a good aerial already, but the autocancel was needed for more offensive prowess. In exchange, some kill potential. Probably worth it.

Down Air:

• Increase Levin's early and meteor hitbox damage from 10%/12% -> 14.5%/14.5%
• Increase Levin's late hitbox damage from 5% -> 7%
• Autocancel window increased from 48> -> 40>

Not much to say here. Autocancel window increase because why not?

Here's my biggest problem, due to Robin's prior mention sluggishness and overall better movement in the air, reducing the kill potential on Robin's aerials is actually a pretty big detriment in my book, even for some increased damage and lower end lag. I know when playing Robin most of my kills are through aerials or the thunder tome, rarely do I get a chance to hit with a smash attack. With the limited uses on tomes Robin needs to KO fast with the Levin sword or risk having a long time (~12 seconds) where she's unable to kill with 8 of her moves. Plus, her down air is absolute garbage, giving it more power is completely useless as it's unsafe in almost any scenario. What it needs is a larger meteor hitbox to at least compensate for the terrible ending lag. In my honest opinion I think that Robin's aerials and smash attacks are in a good place right now (excluding her dair), it's her other moves that need tweaks.

Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron:

• Reduce endlag on all forms from 43/55/55/62 -> 34/50/50/57
• Increase charge speed to Elthunder from ~0.75 seconds -> 0.5 seconds
• Increase speed of Arcthunder to match Elthunder
• Slightly increase Arcthunder trap duration by ~0.4 seconds
• Increase Thoron kill potential from ~120% -> ~110%
• Increase Tome uses from 20 -> 24
• Increase Tome recovery from 12 seconds -> 15 seconds

A lot of changes here, hopefully to give more purpose to each form of Thunder. The first should be about a quick hit used for pressure, so the endlag is decreased more significantly than the others. Elthunder is the "normal" style projectile to me, so I shortened its charge time to make it more on demand than it is now. Arcthunder should be the trapping projectile, so I increased the trap duration for obvious reasons. Thoron is the killing/stage control projectile, which it does fine enough, but I thought more kill power wouldn't hurt. Finally, the Tome timer is increased to make it more of a commitment, but 4 more uses means a few more Thunders here and there.

I don't know exactly when this was written but all of Robin's Thunder charges excluding thunder (which got a 3 frame reduction) and thoron (no change) got a 10 frame reduction in ending lag, which is pretty incredible. Along with thunder getting a bonus ~1% damage and elthunder was brought up to arcthunders damage, most of the changes you mentioned came true . I personally don't see a reason to increase the amount of uses on the tomes, but I also don't see a fault in it considering the relevant penalty.

Arcfire:

• Reduce endlag from 64 frames -> 60 frames
• Arcfire projectile now lasts twice as long (Can most likely hit the ground now even if fired while in the air)
• Make projectile faster

These changes are mostly for helping with jumping Arcfires and overall making it a safer move.

I would absolutely love a reduction in arcfire's ending lag, it's probably one of the biggest thing hindering arcfire right now. However I think that instead of a reduction in end lag it should have better trapping effects. Light characters like Jiggs, Kirby, Game & Watch and etc can escape arcfire without any DI, simply by jumping, and almost all of the charcters can escape arcfire's last hit through smash DI, which hinder's Robin's trapping game significantly at any level where people understand how to use smash DI. This would make the ending lag on the move much more reasonable.

Elwind:

• The two boosts are now independent (now only pressing after the first will do the second one)
• The first boost does not put Robin in freefall and now sends enemies upwards if they hit the wind. (The angle of this knockback should make it combo into the second one)
• Increase Tome uses from 18 -> 24

Now there is a choice of recovery like it usually has, or a downward wind slash that brings enemies up with you. Can be used for mixups.

Are you suggesting that the meteor at the very beginning of the first Elwind hit be removed? Because it's an incredibly useful tool in that regard. The first hit of Elwind when not a meteor sends the opponent straight up into the second blade already, which is a very useful stage spiking tool as the second blade always sends the opponent in the opposite direction Robin is facing. I was talking about this a while ago on another thread, but Robin's up B should definitely give her a choice on if she wants to use both blades, similar to Shulk's airslash. For this to be relevant however, I think that both blades would have to be adjusted so that they give equal height, as it stands now the first blade gives a very pathetic boost vertically, while it does have great horizontal control, the second blade is where Robin's recovery is mostly at.

Nosferatu:

• Decrease Tome recovery from 40 seconds -> 20 seconds
• Get rid of the freefall on a successful hit

And I thought the freefall on Din's Fire was pointless. We'll take that out. Also, decreased Tome recovery, yay!

Don't have any arguments here, Captain Falcon's up B acts like a grab, gives him another use on his recovery move, and it has unlimited uses, and is much easier to connect with, so why does Robin's kill her every time?

Whoa that was a wall of text, sorry! If this sounded mostly negative I apologize, it definitely is not intended to slam your changes, there have just been many, many forum posts on this already so I thought i'd carry over some info from those to here and respond.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

An interesting set of thoughts. I'll play along, viewing myself as an intermediate Robin player.

NAir Buffs: Unnecessary. A lot of us already turn into 'Naircopters' in some matchups anyway, this would just make us do it even more. Would I LIKE these buffs? Sure! They'd make fighting Mario a tad less annoying. I'm just saying it's probably not needed, our Nair is already a really good move. Not as good as some nairs (Yoshi, Mario, etc) out there, but still great.

Arcfire Buffs: Yes please. This move is my single biggest complaint about Robin at this point. It's escapeable on hit for most of the cast, very risky, and the payoff isn't really good enough in many cases for all the downsides it has. There are a few matchups where it's nice, but by and large I feel like an idiot more often than not whenever I use Arcfire.

U-Smash: I'm not convinced it needs damage nerfs at all. The move is really hard to hit with, unlike the very fast, upper-body invulnerable usmashes many other characters have (Mario, etc.). I wouldn't mind some improvements to it, though.

U-Tilt: I'm ok with this. We have no reliable anti-air option at present and it kind of sucks that this isn't one of them.

Jab Changes: I'm okay with this, but would actually prefer they tighten up Wind Jab a bit more first. Too many opponents still fall out of it too easily. Also had them fall out of Fire Jabs in unusual circumstances where the fire-burst isn't wide enough to hit them even though the graphics suggested it should have connected. If I'm going to be spending tomes AT ALL on this, then I want my jabs to be really, really good. This bothers me more than tome usage amounts do.

Throw Changes: Sure, guess we could try those. Giving each throw a unique purpose is a good idea anyway.

Nosferatu Changes: Yes please. You have no idea how much it bothers me that other characters' command grabs don't put them into freefall, but ours does and has hideous range to boot.

Elwind Changes: Either what you proposed, or SOMETHING. It is frankly offensive that we have one of the worst recovery moves in the game (not THE worst, but pretty far down there) and it's limited use. If we're spending a limited resource on it, I want this move to be versatile and useful.

While I disagree on the finer points, your proposal mostly seems to focus on cleaning up the stupid stuff, streamlining our smashes, fixing Arcfire, and making certain moves more 'multi-purpose'. I would be willing to try this proposed version of Robin out. If anyone at Nintendo sees this: My key things are "fix the Wind Jab a little more", "significantly improve Arcfire", and "get rid of Helpless Fall on Nosferatu." Other than that I'm basically happy with Robin.

 

[Zareidriel]

Honestly I think instituting ALL of these balance changes would bring Robin WAY over top tier. I mean way too good goddamn for real a buff on literally every single move? Those arcfire changes? Double the Nosferatu? That would just be the ****.

Out of everything though, the Elwind one is my favorite, seems extremely reasonable. Being able to use the second one when you wanted would give us that desperately needed recovery mix-up.