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Australian Competitive Brawl Ruleset Discussion *Update: 15/05/08* *Spoilers*

Scrubs

Smash Lord
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Sloth on Scrubs account:

My view on brawl is quiet simple. Give it time.
If you look at any game which reach a competitive point, it takes a long time. With racing games, multiply times I've thought I've reached the limit on a time-trial. But a few months down the track I am beating that old time by a far bit.

I think the problem is some people are hoping for hidden techniques in order to bring it competitive to make it melee 2.0. But it won't happen, it will be a different style. Just like with CS, going from 1.5 to 1.6 to source. Each time it went to its new version it lowered the skill needed for aiming, but just the same some people became pro's and rapzed everyone one.

I am not saying it will beat melee. Or will get close to that level. Heck after 1 year it might be everyone can beat everyone. But its just useless in arguing it for the moment.

Brawl is still up close and personal with spacing being a big part. Anyways. I am off to play brawl. :D Hopefully KK/Toai will be here soon.
 

Mic_128

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Mic the only way I see your dream of low-items if for you perth guys to try them out and record some vids to show us there potentional. I doubt QLD will be playing with them at all.
Forget it. The fact that there's only high medium and low options ruins it, especially as "low" is more like melee's medium. :urg:
 

Sirias

Smash Champion
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Boo, sif not invite me to come 'round, Ben. :'C
Although Toai did... but I'd feel weird just randomly coming along, lul.

How about we stop arguing, or sharing our opinions, until everyone has played it.
Well not 'everyone' but the majority I think. :D
And then with like a group outlook we'd be able to look at Brawl bettererererer. Yayayay.

Lulz.
I wanna play Brawl now. :'C
 

Sirias

Smash Champion
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... Pretty much. :D
I forgot BECAUSE I WAS DOING OTHER THINGS.
FARK!

WANNA PLAY BRAWL!
ZAC GOING TO YOURS TODAY!
<333
Pierced tongue lulz.
 

King Kong

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
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People who say that brawl wont be competitive annoy me.

Just from one Brawl session yesterday with Scrubs/Sloth/NG7 I saw a significant change in playstyle as the game wore on. People are jumping to conclusions WAAAYYYY to quickly.

I was doing SH double back air into grab with DK alongside some awsome offstage kill combos and other awsome combos and tricks that the yanks over in Brawl character discussion havnt even discovered yet.

Give it some time, its gonna be great and to me it already feels competitive.

peace out
 

Kulla

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
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498
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Yeah...for the first few days...it really didnt feel like it would match melee in terms of competitiveness, now that I've picked up a few different characters, and my speed has increased, I'm starting to like it more and more. I dont think it will ever be as good as melee, and people holding their breath for some mad glitch to change the game are deluding themselves.

But yeah....as everyone else is saying, give it some time and it will become incredibly competitive.
 

Sirias

Smash Champion
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Oh gay, you're using DK, still. :'C

It looks too slow!
But maybe you get used to the slowness after a while.
Although smashes look really fast. <_<;;
Saa...
Need to see for myself.
Should be getting ready to go to Zac's but BLAH!
 

ACCELERATE

Smash Lord
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Spot Dodge Down Smash ... town.
I've had maybe two days worth of Brawl, and it has brought about a few thoughts.

Firstly: as much as I love Final Smashes, and as much as there is an argument about having the skill to control the stage overrule the randomness of the Smash Ball, it simply doesn't work out that way. If there were Smash Balls in Melee, there would have been a much higher chance that they were implemented in tournament play due to how much easier it was to move - until I reach my second point.

As sweet as Great Aether is, I have to side with the fact that the Ball will show up and do one thing: change the goal of the immediate game. Instead of being totally focused on controlling your opponent, you would now have to control him/her and an entire stage, too - and with mechanics as they are, there are so many characters with huge mobility advantages over so many others. It seems to lack the appeal of you beating your opponent, instead changing things to your ubermove beating your opponent.

Maybe, just maybe, Brawl’s lack of competitiveness in the skill department could be fixed by the presence of Smash Balls - you have to fight that much smarter and that much faster in a game where it’s harder to do either - but it’s wrecked when you actually get it. If we argue that control is the majority of what earns you the Smash Ball, why the hell would you need it at all? You already have enough of an advantage over your opponent - the only logical reason to put in the Smash Ball, then, is to help the underdog. And since when did we play tournaments with handicaps? It’s even stranger still when implementing the item for the loser, we practically give the advantage to the winner. There’s no sense in it other than “HAHAHA FIRIN MAH SAMUS LAZOR”. Perhaps if we had clones of ourselves, there would be some rhyme or reason to putting Smash Balls in competitive play.

We all played Melee competitively without items, and as far as I know, not one person refused to play outright because they wanted items. I'd say it will be the same with Brawl, should it become competitive.

And yeah, I don't think it will. I'm also /facepalm'ing when people say "it might be competitive soon!" as if there's some wonderful cure-all still hidden in this game - despite the fact that it's been tested to oblivion and back. If there was something that gamebreaking, something that could fix Brawl up and throw it past Melee, you'd think it would have been more obvious, huh? I kinda expect this miracle fix to be like the equivalent of fifty differently executed wavedashes and l-cancels - it just won't be short and sweet enough to be viable. That's been pretty much assured. If something does make it out of the works, then I'll shut up, but based on all the reliable evidence I've seen up until this point, it really does make me conclude Brawl just won't do it.

Items will always be a debate about skill vs. luck, and counter to that, control vs. lack skill.

Items make FFA's a lot more fun in Brawl. Items make 1v1 Brawl even less challenging. Smash Balls make Brawl FFA more fun than I've ever had with Melee FFA. Smash Balls also make 1v1 horrible. It's not even about the skill to control it - just as soon as somebody has it, the other person will die. It's about as fair as taking the controller off your opponent and jumping them off the stage. The fairness in the ability to get the Ball is far, far beneath the fairness of what happens after, and that's why I say no to Smash Balls.

What I also say as a result of that last paragraph is this: Brawl is a fantastic party game. 1v1 is good, not great, but FFA is probably where this game shines. Focusing on one person with the game as slow as it is isn't as satisfying as concentrating on three - it works quite nicely. Melee was too hectic for it.

I'm a little disappointed, since I was hoping Brawl WOULD be Melee 2.0 - competitive, fast, and with the same element of control that we had in Melee. As much as I also hate the people who EXPECTED Melee 2.0 even after the fact that it was found not to be and still carry on about it, it would have been nice to come into the Smash scene at the same time as everyone else and feel like I was really in the forefront for a change.

As far as our stage rulings go, I don't think it's wise to be different for the sake of being different. It's almost like the items debate - people are trying to think outside the box too hard. The box works fine. The solution for banned stages in the past? They were friendlies. Friendlies are isolated games where people can have what they want individually and still be satisfied with the result - tournaments are meant to be universal, where everyone agrees, so that we can really believe that our rankings mean something. It's kinda like we're trying to change everyone's opinions in here rather than reach a reasonable agreement with each other.

Besides, there are plenty of new things in what I believed to be neutral stages. There are quite a few that are neutral, anyways.

Final verdict from me is that if we're trying to get Brawl to be competitive, it would make sense to base it on what we know worked from Melee - as much as they are different games, they still have the same goal in mind. Stage selections, items, and even stock limits. I've played around with them a bit and they really do seem to feel the best as they were for Melee.

I'm just about over the debate on competitive Brawl, though. I'll enjoy it more than Melee just because it's still new, and that I really felt left behind in Melee, and finally, that it is just a lot of fun with other people around, but it's simply not as competitive.

Brawl is the better of the two games for me - and I’ve pretty much forfeited my competitive playing for that.

/rant
k .
 

Sloth

Smash Ace
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I'm gonna main Ike too. He is too much fun to play.

On another note, has the brawl ruleset for rambo been discussed lately? I've been too lazy to check.
 

Sirias

Smash Champion
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Lol, Ben.
Let's try different rules and stuff.
And when me and Nick get there you're like:
"Yeah kgo."
And just play like we do in Melee.

Didn't learn anything about Items (Other then Smash Balls which are GAY).
Didn't learn about stages (other than some stages are GAY)
We sorta learned how to kill each other 'sort of quickly', if you take out Ben and Andy's 7 minute match, lol.

Brawl is by far a better FFA or Teams game than Melee.
Singles = Banned. That's what I think.

Ike = Banned. Too sexy.
 

undead_moose

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Oh well. I guess he's just.. Different
Ike is indeed sexy im maining him everyone else can FARK OFF

I think that shadow moses should be allowed stage wise

And maybe in doubles that team heal item should be allowed seeming as it can either be a good thing or bad thing for your team..... Altho i dont see it happning
 

Mic_128

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I really could see team healer being in teams, mainly because it's a double edged sword based on skill and not random "oh lol backfire"
 

Sirias

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What's a Team Healer? Is it an item? If it's an item doesn't it have random spawn times/locations? And isn't random lolluck? =]

Lululul, just kidding, I don't even care anymore about Brawl rules. I'ma just play it for fun.
That's all it's aimed for!
FUN!
PUT IN ALL ITEMS~
ESP. SMASH BALLS!
 

Mic_128

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You can't hit yourself with it (dunno if you can chuck it at someone, have it reflected and then hit you, but that still requires amazing timing not to be hit (either you or your ally) but also that someone doesn't jump between the 2 guys and get the heal.)

So you can't chuck it up and jump. Think of it like chucking a beamsword, except it heals instead of hitting, and you can't hit yourself with it.
 

rmusgrave

BRoomer
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Sep 15, 2002
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Perth, Western Australia
Situation:

Beam sword spawns next to someone in Brawl. The player picks it up, but isn't very good at using it. The other player isn't very good at countering it either. Player 1 has the advantage.

Same situation:

Player 1 knows how to use a beam sword very effectively. He takes 2 stock off his opponent with it, because they don't know how to counter it.

Situation 3:

Player 2 knows how to counter, but player 1 doesn't know how to use well. Player 1 quickly loses the beam sword (i.e. has a disadvantage when the item spawns).

Situation 4:

Player 1 and 2 are experienced on both sides of using a beam sword. Play continues as before, except with different strategies based around item use/counteruse.

I think that's proof enough of skill.

As far as random spawns go, control the stage and you should be fine. Controlling the stage does not mean you are beating your opponent, simply that you will have the advantage if an item spawns. A lot of people that don't play with items don't like to consider stage control a 'real' skill, same as any skill used to make items effective.

Of course, items like smash balls and bob-ombs would be off for the simple possibility of the items spawning during an attack. That would be purely luck based.

Other items that were banned in the American tournament scene were hammers and invincibility (people would just run away and delay the match), healing items like food and hearts (more match delay) and anything else that detracted from the skill of the game.


In melee, there were 2 camps in America for and against items in tournaments. This only really changed at a tournament, as the final was between Azen and Eddie. Azen lost this final, and he claimed that the only reason he lost was because items were on and he was the victim of the spawning explosion. This was the turning point, as no one could justify keeping items on when there was the chance of an exploding capsule.

If this isn't the case in Brawl I would like to see items used at some tournaments up until the point that they are proven to be too random to be played with.

- Luigi misfires, G&W forward B, Peach down B, random spawns of Shy Guys on Yoshi Story neutral and the falling through the stage glitch on Pokemon Stadium (and Pokemon Floats) were all random effects in smash that are more devastating than some items in Melee. They weren't banned because of it though.

Lets give some items a chance shall we? I know I will.
 

Sloth

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Bringer. much of your argument has already been covered. Rather then arguing against all of it again let me ask a question.

Does the skill of using a random-location-random-spawning item greatly out weigh the luck that it adds to the game?

I don't think so.

And lets say the game was designed so items only spawn on the left hand side ontop of a platform and every 27 second intervals. Then yes, you could proclaim that it would require skill at that point. But this is not the case.

Erg. I typed too much. Give it a shot if you like. I will sure stay away from it so I can concentrate on getting better at the game and not better with luck.
 

Mic_128

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Melee had set spawn points and items spawned at one of them every X seconds depending on item appearance rates.
 

Sloth

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What are the times Mic? and points for lets say.. FD? or do you have a post to link to the specific information.

I'm not saying I don't believe it, I am just curious to it.

Is it like. Lets say point A is in the middle. Is it on.. for example a set time of every 52 seconds an item will spawn. While point B is on the left at every 32 seconds and point C is on the right at every 1mintue 24seconds.

Does it work on that basis? I presume so. Want more info^^ And if brawl does the same.
 

Mic_128

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It's more on very low an item will spawn every X second, and there's only 5 spawn points.

It's something that's been pretty much confirmed, but I haven't seen much specifics (ie, stage maps, the exact times) mainly because items were banned so the people who check every frame never bothered. I'll do some digging, see if I cna find those specifics, but failing that, I'll just experiment later.
 

Sloth

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Does sound very interesting Mic, if you do end up experimenting please tell me.

I think we should turn out attention to stages for a while. The item argument will only stagnate and most has already been covered. Also, as it stands. QLD = No items / NSW = No items / Vic = No items. If you just judge by the majority it will be very slim for items to appear in brawl tournaments held in Australia.

In the rambo thread a few stages have been posted, of course open to discussion -which should be done in this thread. Scrubs we should talk about which stages we consider N / C / B and compare it to Shaz's list! and begin to list reasoning behind the decisions. I'd like to hear from NSW/WA as well.

And stock rules, I still think 3-stock would be best. I can see the game involving to 4 stock, but the current state of the metagame should fit in within certain time-restraints.
 

rmusgrave

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The only reason those scenes choose no items is that they are already influenced by playing Melee. With the ease of catching items, and things like the Franklin badge I think that items will be more balanced.

And yes, item spawns have always been to a number of fixed spots and a rough rate of item/minute.

The main reason I'm discussing items is that I don't have the game yet, so I will be discussing stages etc whenceupon I get it.
 

Sloth

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Is there no data on actual spawn times anywhere? Also does the item which spawns a random selection or is that controlled somewhat?

I still don't see how a random spawn of an item can out weigh the skill to luck potential. Maybe I am just ignorant to the whole thing. And also what are the boundaries of an over-powered item to one that is usable in competitive game play.. of course none can be defined as no one uses them, but it is still a concept I wouldn't want to tackle.

Anyways, the game follows exactly the same fundamentals as melee. It isn't like a whole new direction.
I'll take King Kong for example, he was one of the ones who hoped there was a chance items could make an appearance into the metagame, but after playing it he considered that the be an impossibility. It is too much the same.

I am just discussing it still because there is nothing else at the moment as well. I won't have a chance to delve into the stages until next time I play the game. Plus its 2:11am and smashboards is filled with too much boring neurotic stuff that doesn't deserve a post.

Out of curiosity how much brawl have you played Bringer? I'm very interested in how you find the game + Yoshi. Omg IC's CG on Yoshi is like zero to death. Need to experiment if you can DI out of it well next time.
 

King Kong

Smash Lord
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Yeah, i was hoping items would be balanced, but as it seems they are a little too random, unless we dictate which items are able to be used. This seems like it would change the direction of the metagame though and would make items the focus of the game which is a little lame imo.

Brawl is sooooo much fun. Diddy and DK are beasts.

Toon link is an amazing character.

Peace out
 

Sloth

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The more I play 1v1s against multiply people, the more I notice a very very big gap in play styles and skill levels. And this is before even learning the correct way to approach certain character match ups.

I still don't have a decent feel for teams, maybe I need to find my one true partner <3
 

Sirias

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Me and Nick do well with Wolf and Ike, lol. <_<;; Weird.
Except Nick won't stop being a n00b! XD Gawd. Sif kill yourself and not help at all. :'C
No one's used to the game fully yet, I don't think.
I think maybe Ben and... no, Zac doesn't play it.
Ben probably has the best feel for the game. =]
Lol, but he plays Dedede which makes him gay!
Play Falco, or something, not Dedede! :'C
 

Shady_james

Smash Cadet
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Jul 29, 2007
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In ur base killing ur doodz
if there was like a countdown to item spawns that both players could see, then wouldn't it be skill to have your opponent off-stage when it spawns?
Just a thought. Don't know how we'd get a timer like that set up though.
 

Sloth

Smash Ace
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In FPS games you have shield timing / mega health timing but you can't see the count down to its exact spawn. Sometimes you have to calculate it to the time you picked it up, or eventually you just get the feel when '27 seconds' is up and it is about to respawn.

That is why the spawn thing interests me. However the fact that you don't control what spawns and what substitutes as a over-powered item. And whether the skill of controlling it increase general gameplay skill or still more heavily induced by luck is the subject.
 

Darkwing SykeDuk

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Purple Monkey Dishwasher
The item sets in fps are about map control, the items are set in positions were both teams have equal time tog et there and have to fight out for control of it. However in H3 your able to control weapon/power-up as well as character spawns.
 
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