Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Mix up Fair with AC Dair? It should be noted that such a mixup would only work if they shield it. If they try to intercept your landing, the mixup will just get you hit. . .
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)
- Thread starter Taj278
- Start date
yoshiiscool
Smash Journeyman
That's not true purple, an intercepting aerial beats out both options thanks to f-airs ridiculous startup. The mixup is reliant on if they're conditioned to shield for the punish, as that's the only way you can even get into that particular situation. As well as the fact that It's pretty damn hard to react to a yoshi d-air canceling instead of using an aerial if he's already in the air, and by the time you have, it's too late, as yoshi will be grounded. The best option against d-air canceling is just trying to intercept in the air pre-emptively, which yoshi's n-air tends to beat out. It's sort of a rock paper scissors situation (hence mix-up) Shielding results in a punish against high n-airs, and misspaced f-airs, but allows yoshi to get in with d-air/tomahawk, while attacking can beat out d-airs/f-airs, but can lose to n-airs djcc. Using f-airs once you have a good feeling of how they'll act in the situation, or have a guaranteed lead-in with your approach (tech-chase) since it's the highest risk/reward.
This is also not even taking into consideration the MOVEMENT aspect of the d-air cancel, allowing you to control yourself horizontally in the air as well as falling immediately, making it even harder for the opponent to successfully anticipate where you will be to hit you out of your d-air... IF you even do (R)DJC d-air. I really think you're just underestimating how useful the tech is because the utility is shakey on paper, and I really hope you'll at least mess around with it whenever you get the chance to play people again. It really opens up some crazy movement options that are not possible without it, that I personally think Yoshi needs to take advantage of. It's similar to parrying really, who the hell thought a 2-frame window parry would make a difference, but now it's pretty integral in yoshi's advanced meta (*I was actually against parrying back in the day, because I assumed it couldn't be consistent enough to make a difference). Yoshi's two most important features are his crazy movement, and his shield, so you need to have a fine mastery of both in order to fully utilize the character. BTW, if you haven't done it already, I suggest just running around trying out auto-cancel d-airs on your own. I didn't think much of them either, until I had actually started practicing and doing them myself, and realied how damn fluid and seamless it is. Maybe I'll post some quick videos showing how good it can actually look, or at least bug vman to do it.
Also, the situation kimi was asking for in the first place was defensive, reactionary play, so... chances are the conditioning to shield is already there, he just needs to find some way to abuse it. Then once the opponent has to think on his toes, instead of showing conditioned responses the real fun starts. Dem hard reads.
This is also not even taking into consideration the MOVEMENT aspect of the d-air cancel, allowing you to control yourself horizontally in the air as well as falling immediately, making it even harder for the opponent to successfully anticipate where you will be to hit you out of your d-air... IF you even do (R)DJC d-air. I really think you're just underestimating how useful the tech is because the utility is shakey on paper, and I really hope you'll at least mess around with it whenever you get the chance to play people again. It really opens up some crazy movement options that are not possible without it, that I personally think Yoshi needs to take advantage of. It's similar to parrying really, who the hell thought a 2-frame window parry would make a difference, but now it's pretty integral in yoshi's advanced meta (*I was actually against parrying back in the day, because I assumed it couldn't be consistent enough to make a difference). Yoshi's two most important features are his crazy movement, and his shield, so you need to have a fine mastery of both in order to fully utilize the character. BTW, if you haven't done it already, I suggest just running around trying out auto-cancel d-airs on your own. I didn't think much of them either, until I had actually started practicing and doing them myself, and realied how damn fluid and seamless it is. Maybe I'll post some quick videos showing how good it can actually look, or at least bug vman to do it.
Also, the situation kimi was asking for in the first place was defensive, reactionary play, so... chances are the conditioning to shield is already there, he just needs to find some way to abuse it. Then once the opponent has to think on his toes, instead of showing conditioned responses the real fun starts. Dem hard reads.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
*slow clap*
glad you understand Moooooo! <3 it's usefulness! wooooot
glad you understand Moooooo! <3 it's usefulness! wooooot
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Maybe I didn't post in a way that was clear. I'm saying that the Dair would only see utility against people who always shield against you being in the situation to Fair them. I was saying that both option would lose to them trying to intercept with an attack. It really depends on what move they use, but what I currently do is mix up Fair, Nair, and doing nothing(waiting on the top platform).
AC Dair still doesn't give you any more movement than Fair or Nair.
I messed around with using DJC for movement before there was a big deal about it, I think most people when they first learn Yoshi play around with moving with DJc and DJ land. . . then I played with it again after aMSa/Vman talked about it. I don't think whether or not the maneuver can look good is enough to make it worth implementing.
Some things to remember:
Considering the shield stun formula: shield stun=floor[(4.45+staled damage)/(2.235)], the fact that AC aerials have 4 frames langing lag, and Yoshi's Nair has 7 frames of landing lag if L-cancelled. . . . Yoshi's Nair would need to do less than 3% for it to have less of a frame advantage than AC Dairing (assuming they're both landing in front of the shield).
If your plan is to land out of their reach, as a bait for them to throw out a move, then the only advantage of the Dair is a 3 frame speed increase. Since you'd have to be using the AC Dair to respond to them acting out of shield, it would only benefit if you were trying to act faster than them oos. . .
AC Dair still doesn't give you any more movement than Fair or Nair.
I messed around with using DJC for movement before there was a big deal about it, I think most people when they first learn Yoshi play around with moving with DJc and DJ land. . . then I played with it again after aMSa/Vman talked about it. I don't think whether or not the maneuver can look good is enough to make it worth implementing.
Some things to remember:
Considering the shield stun formula: shield stun=floor[(4.45+staled damage)/(2.235)], the fact that AC aerials have 4 frames langing lag, and Yoshi's Nair has 7 frames of landing lag if L-cancelled. . . . Yoshi's Nair would need to do less than 3% for it to have less of a frame advantage than AC Dairing (assuming they're both landing in front of the shield).
If your plan is to land out of their reach, as a bait for them to throw out a move, then the only advantage of the Dair is a 3 frame speed increase. Since you'd have to be using the AC Dair to respond to them acting out of shield, it would only benefit if you were trying to act faster than them oos. . .
Thanks for the advice! Players with defensive playstyles are really something I struggle against, and you're right that it's a more general problem, considering I have the same problem in Smash 64. Yeah, I've noticed that I have a pretty formulaic playstyle most of the time, but players like PewPewU said I use a lot of mixups. That's not good enough for adapting to my opponent though.
I really appreciate that advice! I'll see what I can do once I get back to playing! There's also a tournament on Jan 11 that I'm attending so we'll see how well I can put it to use.
I really appreciate that advice! I'll see what I can do once I get back to playing! There's also a tournament on Jan 11 that I'm attending so we'll see how well I can put it to use.
MrHazuki
Smash Ace
Nothing in smash is as rewarding as getting parries. I get a tiny orgasm every time.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
You'll probably get a feel for it eventually, but it depends on the percents and the character. For Sheik, I usually try to either go for a big combo starting with Fair (usually goes into a juggle or something), or try to put on chip damage until she is at a more combo-able percent. Bair and Dtilt are the main things to go for in my opinion(I'd use these as spacing). Ftilt and Nair are also good in certain situations(I'd use these as a response). Although there are many moves you can usually use depending on the situation.
Be careful about using ECEs against her though, although they're great for building damage, needles will kill you pretty easily.
Be careful about using ECEs against her though, although they're great for building damage, needles will kill you pretty easily.
MrHazuki
Smash Ace
http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/492591372?t=96m25s
A good set between me (Guess) and Askelink (Sheik, Fox).
I mess up a lot of shielddrops. I still have them in my movement scheme, but some days I just can't do them, which is why I get stuck on the platforms a lot.
Also, from another stream which turned out to be extremely choppy...
http://www.twitch.tv/jackioz/b/492603765?t=3m04s against Adum (Sheik). His first time at a tourney, so no hate.
http://www.twitch.tv/jackioz/b/492603765?t=12m29s against Calle W (Bird of death). Yeah.
http://www.twitch.tv/jackioz/b/492603765?t=12m29s against Jokern (Ganon). Also first time.
Two friendlies against Hara (Luigi) and Smakis (Falco)
http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/492591372?t=11m46s
A good set between me (Guess) and Askelink (Sheik, Fox).
I mess up a lot of shielddrops. I still have them in my movement scheme, but some days I just can't do them, which is why I get stuck on the platforms a lot.
Also, from another stream which turned out to be extremely choppy...
http://www.twitch.tv/jackioz/b/492603765?t=3m04s against Adum (Sheik). His first time at a tourney, so no hate.
http://www.twitch.tv/jackioz/b/492603765?t=12m29s against Calle W (Bird of death). Yeah.
http://www.twitch.tv/jackioz/b/492603765?t=12m29s against Jokern (Ganon). Also first time.
Two friendlies against Hara (Luigi) and Smakis (Falco)
http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/492591372?t=11m46s
Last edited:
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
I got some recent sets against the bird of death as well haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LglQpPzlJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-LgEPhvBCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LglQpPzlJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-LgEPhvBCg
YOSHIDO
Smash Ace
Hey guys, My bro made a combo video for me. It's not flashy but it shows my still of more set up and read base. I approve lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh2xAmlhcqk
Yes, your opponent experiences hitlag but you do not.
Today I hosted a tournament that had 77 entrants in Singles. I ended up getting 13th, losing to SFAT and Alan. This time I did much better against SFAT, landing some of the best combos I've ever done, like a 30% - 130% death combo on Dreamland. Unfortunately I didn't get anything recorded since there was only one recording setup and 10+ TVs. There was no stream either.
Today I hosted a tournament that had 77 entrants in Singles. I ended up getting 13th, losing to SFAT and Alan. This time I did much better against SFAT, landing some of the best combos I've ever done, like a 30% - 130% death combo on Dreamland. Unfortunately I didn't get anything recorded since there was only one recording setup and 10+ TVs. There was no stream either.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
That's awesome Kimimaru. 13th out of 77 is pretty amazing.
I went to a tourney as well, it had 43 entrants I think, including Silentwolf, Bladewise, Eggz and essentially Oregon's entire PR. I got 7th, losing to Foos(Sheik, Oregon's #2 on the PR) 2-1, and Brick(#6 on the PR, Puff, from Corvallis, like me.) I'd say the most noteable thing was me beating Oregon's #3, God With A Wavebird, a Falcon main, for the first time.
I went to a tourney as well, it had 43 entrants I think, including Silentwolf, Bladewise, Eggz and essentially Oregon's entire PR. I got 7th, losing to Foos(Sheik, Oregon's #2 on the PR) 2-1, and Brick(#6 on the PR, Puff, from Corvallis, like me.) I'd say the most noteable thing was me beating Oregon's #3, God With A Wavebird, a Falcon main, for the first time.
http://smashboards.com/threads/dime-7-results-1-11.345780/
13th in an 84 man tourney, and I challenged everyone I could to a MM... I lost to Wobbles' Kirby, but I'll get 'em next time. Took him to last stock both matches and won once or twice in friendlies with him. Anyway, I made about 25$ from 1$ MM's and it's really helped me get a lot of experience!
I got one tourney match recorded and a few friendlies, but those friendlies I'm going to be keeping for my combo vid...
Hopefully the set I had recorded will be up soon.
I ended up losing to an IC's player (Admiral, I think) and she was coached and given tips by Wobbles before the match lol. Still took her to last stock first game, and she ended up having to wobble me every stock to kill me. Second game I got two stocked but it was still close, it was a fun set.
I got knocked out by a Doc. I went Yoshi first game and got two stocked, then switched to Fox and it ended with a 100%+ last hit battle. He got it, and afterwards told me if I stayed Yoshi he would have eventually cracked. Next time I'll stay with my main man in pink.
Anyone have any Doc tips?
Oh and in friendlies I broke a Ganon's shield three times in one match. He didn't know what to do with my DJC nair, jabs, and d-tilt pressure. That was fun and Wobbles watched me do it :3
Our Yoshi's are all doing pretty well it seems! Can't wait to see what more we can do!
13th in an 84 man tourney, and I challenged everyone I could to a MM... I lost to Wobbles' Kirby, but I'll get 'em next time. Took him to last stock both matches and won once or twice in friendlies with him. Anyway, I made about 25$ from 1$ MM's and it's really helped me get a lot of experience!
I got one tourney match recorded and a few friendlies, but those friendlies I'm going to be keeping for my combo vid...
Hopefully the set I had recorded will be up soon.
I ended up losing to an IC's player (Admiral, I think) and she was coached and given tips by Wobbles before the match lol. Still took her to last stock first game, and she ended up having to wobble me every stock to kill me. Second game I got two stocked but it was still close, it was a fun set.
I got knocked out by a Doc. I went Yoshi first game and got two stocked, then switched to Fox and it ended with a 100%+ last hit battle. He got it, and afterwards told me if I stayed Yoshi he would have eventually cracked. Next time I'll stay with my main man in pink.
Anyone have any Doc tips?
Oh and in friendlies I broke a Ganon's shield three times in one match. He didn't know what to do with my DJC nair, jabs, and d-tilt pressure. That was fun and Wobbles watched me do it :3
Our Yoshi's are all doing pretty well it seems! Can't wait to see what more we can do!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qzW-TyeKJ8&feature=youtu.be
And here's my set vs King.
So, I've never seen myself play, I've only felt it. Kinda like how some people think they're pretty singers when they're by themselves, but when they hear a recording they think it sounds bad. I'll try not to be too negative on myself.
So... I think it's more clear than I wish it was that my Yoshi's only hatched less than a year ago, plus I'm still nervous. I missed basically all my shield drops and did lots of silly things. I Yoshi bomber'd way too much when I was high up, and I got a bit too c-stick happy and didn't use some good moves like dash attack enough. My throw game could have been a lot better, it shows that I probably need to be playing with more people. I was too unsafe with my double jumps. I used them too early/reacted too late. My DJC fairs were pretty off and gross.
Now for positives. I was pretty happy with my consistent egg toss game, as it even got me the final kill. My punishes worked nicely, and I tried to abuse his lack of MU knowledge as much as possible. I was having fun with it, even if I was scared, and I think that's reflected in my playstyle. I was pretty good defensively, I like to think, as I often have a habit of being too defensive when in in a bad position I'm trying to break. I also think I've just improved a lot in general. Despite thinking I could do better, I'm happy with how I played and would love a bit of feedback on my play, and maybe some feedback on my personal feedback?
And here's my set vs King.
So, I've never seen myself play, I've only felt it. Kinda like how some people think they're pretty singers when they're by themselves, but when they hear a recording they think it sounds bad. I'll try not to be too negative on myself.
So... I think it's more clear than I wish it was that my Yoshi's only hatched less than a year ago, plus I'm still nervous. I missed basically all my shield drops and did lots of silly things. I Yoshi bomber'd way too much when I was high up, and I got a bit too c-stick happy and didn't use some good moves like dash attack enough. My throw game could have been a lot better, it shows that I probably need to be playing with more people. I was too unsafe with my double jumps. I used them too early/reacted too late. My DJC fairs were pretty off and gross.
Now for positives. I was pretty happy with my consistent egg toss game, as it even got me the final kill. My punishes worked nicely, and I tried to abuse his lack of MU knowledge as much as possible. I was having fun with it, even if I was scared, and I think that's reflected in my playstyle. I was pretty good defensively, I like to think, as I often have a habit of being too defensive when in in a bad position I'm trying to break. I also think I've just improved a lot in general. Despite thinking I could do better, I'm happy with how I played and would love a bit of feedback on my play, and maybe some feedback on my personal feedback?
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Hey hamyojo...
I just finished watching your video link, and I must say i'm very pleased with the video that you uploaded.. You have solid and a grand general understanding of the character, and it was really nice to see. Many of your faults, you stated above, are things you seem to already know... it still does surprise me, that many players don't crossup shields.. Yoshi has an amazing crossup game, and can be used to shield pressure, and put opponents, in a troublesome position...
I did notice when Marth is recovering, you attempted the DJCcounter Nair on Marth's Up+B, and I don't usually agree with that option, as the Up+B can take your jump away if the proper hitbox is used... so just use sparingly... I think it's just safer/more efficient.. to use multiple ECE, to force your opponent to recover into it, THEN in their stun, Ledge nair.. It's worked so well for me, and I believe it will for you also..
Seems you did miss many of your shielddrops... I really wanna emphasize on the importance of these... I feel shielddropping with Yoshi NEEDS to be natural... like wavedashing, and L-canceling.. it just needs to be second nature, where/when you can input it at will... I know i practiced my tail off to get it perfected... and it's basically second nature to me.. I'm 110% positive, this will improve everyone's game.
For your negative comments, you have a general idea, of what you need to work on, and I'd love more videos to watch, to see what you can improve on... Again in due time, the other things come into place..
Keep it up man, and GG on all the Yoshi stuff... Good Job Kimi, and good job Purpletuce.. so glad to see Yoshi's doing well...
^^
Now I'm watching Mind Trick, and Hazuki, and Yoshido! I'll critique/comment you guys asap! <3
Hopefully I get to finish before I go to Apex you guys! ^^
I just finished watching your video link, and I must say i'm very pleased with the video that you uploaded..
You have solid and a grand general understanding of the character, and it was really nice to see. Many of your faults, you stated above, are things you seem to already know... it still does surprise me, that many players don't crossup shields.. Yoshi has an amazing crossup game, and can be used to shield pressure, and put opponents, in a troublesome position... I did notice when Marth is recovering, you attempted the DJCcounter Nair on Marth's Up+B, and I don't usually agree with that option, as the Up+B can take your jump away if the proper hitbox is used... so just use sparingly... I think it's just safer/more efficient.. to use multiple ECE, to force your opponent to recover into it, THEN in their stun, Ledge nair..
It's worked so well for me, and I believe it will for you also.. Seems you did miss many of your shielddrops... I really wanna emphasize on the importance of these... I feel shielddropping with Yoshi NEEDS to be natural... like wavedashing, and L-canceling.. it just needs to be second nature, where/when you can input it at will... I know i practiced my tail off to get it perfected... and it's basically second nature to me.. I'm 110% positive, this will improve everyone's game.
For your negative comments, you have a general idea, of what you need to work on, and I'd love more videos to watch, to see what you can improve on... Again in due time, the other things come into place..
Keep it up man, and GG on all the Yoshi stuff... Good Job Kimi, and good job Purpletuce.. so glad to see Yoshi's doing well...
^^
Now I'm watching Mind Trick, and Hazuki, and Yoshido! I'll critique/comment you guys asap! <3
Hopefully I get to finish before I go to Apex you guys! ^^
Thank you very much!
And it usually is, but the pressure was getting to me. I shouldn't john, though, as I know I just need to keep working at them. I'm fine with doing more work on them.
I didn't know that sometimes it'd knock my jump out, I just knew that if he missed his sweet spot it was a free nair, thus a free kill. I'll try to keep with ECE's but I will never stop experimenting.
I do have more videos, but it wasn't against a good player. I'm keeping it for myself as I got a few nice combos for Green Eggs And Ham.
I got a capture card for christmas but I'm still missing a few cords. Soon I will have more vids. Thanks again for watching/critiquing!
And it usually is, but the pressure was getting to me. I shouldn't john, though, as I know I just need to keep working at them. I'm fine with doing more work on them.
I didn't know that sometimes it'd knock my jump out, I just knew that if he missed his sweet spot it was a free nair, thus a free kill. I'll try to keep with ECE's but I will never stop experimenting.
I do have more videos, but it wasn't against a good player. I'm keeping it for myself as I got a few nice combos for Green Eggs And Ham.
I got a capture card for christmas but I'm still missing a few cords. Soon I will have more vids. Thanks again for watching/critiquing!
MrHazuki
Smash Ace
There shouldn't be any lag at all, at least for bair and dair. The others am I not so sure about.
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
Sooo... aMSa vs DJ Nintendo (Bowser) exhibition match @ apex
I don't see any way amsa is losing this, might be one of Yoshi's best matchups, so I'm expecting no less than a 3-0
Both vman and amsa seem to be in some of the easier pools, hoping to see ChuDat vs amsa.
Anyone else going?
I don't see any way amsa is losing this, might be one of Yoshi's best matchups, so I'm expecting no less than a 3-0
Both vman and amsa seem to be in some of the easier pools, hoping to see ChuDat vs amsa.
Anyone else going?
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Yeah, Vman and aMSa definitely have relatively free pools, you two better make it out. 
Also, just because you think the MU is good for Yoshi doesn't mean much, I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser had some tricks, and keep in mind that DJ Nintendo has many more victories under his belt than aMSa. That match will be a challenge for sure, and I think both players (aMSa and DJ Nintendo) would be foolish to underrate their opponents.
Also, just because you think the MU is good for Yoshi doesn't mean much, I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser had some tricks, and keep in mind that DJ Nintendo has many more victories under his belt than aMSa. That match will be a challenge for sure, and I think both players (aMSa and DJ Nintendo) would be foolish to underrate their opponents.
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2012
- Messages
- 3,056
- Switch FC
- SW-6444-7862-9014
aMSa IS GODLIKE SOMEONE PLEASE PINCH ME BECAUSE I THINK I'M HAVING THE BEST DREAM I EVER HAD.
... this is so hype, congratulations aMSa, you're amazing,really. Getting 9th at APEX with Yoshi.
I honestly think you're the most dedicated and skilled melee player in the world.
... this is so hype, congratulations aMSa, you're amazing,really. Getting 9th at APEX with Yoshi.
I honestly think you're the most dedicated and skilled melee player in the world.
I'm also very impressed with aMSa's performance! I saw the match against Colbol; it's a shame he SDed in such a crucial set. I didn't see any of his other sets, but I heard he took out Fly Amanita and SilentWolf! Let's help him bump Yoshi up to Pikachu on the tier list .
.
Fly/aMSa wasn't on stream sadly, but his set with silentwolf was absolutely stellar.I'm also very impressed with aMSa's performance! I saw the match against Colbol; it's a shame he SDed in such a crucial set. I didn't see any of his other sets, but I heard he took out Fly Amanita and SilentWolf! Let's help him bump Yoshi up to Pikachu on the tier list
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
the worst time to start practising your RECE's jesusI'm also very impressed with aMSa's performance! I saw the match against Colbol; it's a shame he SDed in such a crucial set. I didn't see any of his other sets, but I heard he took out Fly Amanita and SilentWolf! Let's help him bump Yoshi up to Pikachu on the tier list
I was actually glad I didn't see RECEs flying around; it was cool stuff when it came out but the risk is too high nowadays.
aMSa's biggest strength by far is his movement and I hope everyone who still plays in tournament was taking notes. He was playing a very Tekken-type duck and dodge game and that alone took him an incredibly long way. I liked his risk/reward situational awareness although I wanted to see more ground-based punishes. Very solid eye and you could feel when he knew he needed or wanted to take risks to either catch up or pull away. I still can't say how impressed I was with his risk/reward calculations...he has to have previous experience with fighting games or playing with other players. Then again, maybe I'm just used to seeing people go buck wild with their controllers and not doing anything that makes sense.
Lots of supershields, lots of smart DJCs, being very conservative with grabs and Egg Lay, being very liberal with eggs. Great play and I hope he becomes even stronger. One of the few players where you can see stock-by-stock adaptation strategies and a predictive eye in terms of how he was applying shield pressure and picking spots for his tilts. Very skilled guy. Above else, I respect the hunger and the attitude. You can tell he wants it and that he's been working hard AND that he has a gameplan to get him there. Don't see too much of that anymore.
aMSa's biggest strength by far is his movement and I hope everyone who still plays in tournament was taking notes. He was playing a very Tekken-type duck and dodge game and that alone took him an incredibly long way. I liked his risk/reward situational awareness although I wanted to see more ground-based punishes. Very solid eye and you could feel when he knew he needed or wanted to take risks to either catch up or pull away. I still can't say how impressed I was with his risk/reward calculations...he has to have previous experience with fighting games or playing with other players. Then again, maybe I'm just used to seeing people go buck wild with their controllers and not doing anything that makes sense.
Lots of supershields, lots of smart DJCs, being very conservative with grabs and Egg Lay, being very liberal with eggs. Great play and I hope he becomes even stronger. One of the few players where you can see stock-by-stock adaptation strategies and a predictive eye in terms of how he was applying shield pressure and picking spots for his tilts. Very skilled guy. Above else, I respect the hunger and the attitude. You can tell he wants it and that he's been working hard AND that he has a gameplan to get him there. Don't see too much of that anymore.
I didn't even see him play against characters where RECEs would help anyways. Certainly no need to do it against spacies at least.
Something I noticed when aMSa played Colbol...I don't think he got any parries on him. I'll have to watch the vods to make sure. But he was definitely getting a crazy amount of parries on PP so was this Colbol timing his moves well or aMSa messing up?
Something I noticed when aMSa played Colbol...I don't think he got any parries on him. I'll have to watch the vods to make sure. But he was definitely getting a crazy amount of parries on PP so was this Colbol timing his moves well or aMSa messing up?
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
colbol was drilling a lot, which is what you should do as fox
I think I remember sheermadness telling a while back he was training with colbol, you could tell he had some experience dealing with yoshi (like not missing all his techs)
I think I remember sheermadness telling a while back he was training with colbol, you could tell he had some experience dealing with yoshi (like not missing all his techs)
Yeah I noticed Silent Wolf, for example, missed many more techs than colbol or PP did.
I guess I'll just wait for youtube vids, because I couldn't pinpoint what Colbol was doing specifically to fight yoshi. I don't remember how he used drills against amsa right now.
I guess I'll just wait for youtube vids, because I couldn't pinpoint what Colbol was doing specifically to fight yoshi. I don't remember how he used drills against amsa right now.
Yes, I was talking to D1 about this (or talking at him, rather), but Colbol was drilling a TON from the start and spamming lots of jabs and random grabs after game 1.
Solid anti-supershield strategy and anti-not-top-tier strategy in general. It draws the match out longer, but it doesn't matter in the end.
Solid anti-supershield strategy and anti-not-top-tier strategy in general. It draws the match out longer, but it doesn't matter in the end.
MrHazuki
Smash Ace
He did a lot of spaced and/or late nairs as well. They are a lot harder to parry. Colbol played really smart.
downbfordays
Smash Cadet
Basic stupid question, are djc aerials able to be l-canceled? If so I'm guessing it's important to do so lol
Dinowulf
Smash Journeyman
it's frustrating hearing all this cool stuff going on with the yoshi matchup and didn't really have many chances to practice myself but since i've moved down to florida. I got a lot more yoshi games in. I hope to upload some melee matches here in the near future as i'm trying to start a stream thing. in the northwest florida area.
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
I was at Apex. I told Colbol to drill as much as possible right before the match.
You can't parry a drill. He still naired way too much though (fox's can't completely stifle their nair habits). Lucky amsa couldn't catch on.
Sorry I ruined everything lol.
amsa is amazing though and really fun to watch.
You can't parry a drill. He still naired way too much though (fox's can't completely stifle their nair habits). Lucky amsa couldn't catch on.
Sorry I ruined everything lol.
amsa is amazing though and really fun to watch.
CaterpillarCake
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Messages
- 27
So I don't know if this is the right place, if not please direct me in the right direction.
I would like to know how to deal with falco as yoshi.
Do I just have to parry everything?
How to deal with laser spam?
Best ways to approach Falco spamming lasers?
I would like to know how to deal with falco as yoshi.
Do I just have to parry everything?
How to deal with laser spam?
Best ways to approach Falco spamming lasers?
Sashimi
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 25, 2013
- Messages
- 704
I conveniently played a local Falco main for several hours the other day, and I learned a lot. He also happens to use lasers a lot, haha.
Take all of this with a grain of salt, and definitely get answers from the better Yoshi players!
Without lasers, Falco hardly has anything on Yoshi, though. I've found that all of his aerials are some of the easiest in the game to parry, and aside from that, all he has is Shine. But if your opponent isn't throwing out lasers or aerials, Shine is muuuch easier to deal with. Does he jump? Parry it. Does he run up to you? Hit him before he gets close enough to shine.
The number of times my Falco friend said "Stop parrying everything!" really made me feel okay about this matchup. I think it's certainly winnable for Yoshi.
Edit: I forgot to mention that you don't have to choose just one way to deal with lasers. Mixing it up will help you stay unpredictable!
Take all of this with a grain of salt, and definitely get answers from the better Yoshi players!
Basically, from what I've noticed, lasers are Falco's only hope of approaching. If you get overwhelmed by lasers, Falco has a free approach, and I'm sure you know how easy it is for Falco to start a combo.
There are different strategies for dealing with the dreaded laser. Some are more technically demanding than others, but I think they all work as long as you develop a real game plan around them rather than use them as a gimick. Some examples:
Avoid the lasers
Reflect everything
1. The first one sounds easier, but isn't, in my experience. In order to avoid the lasers consistently, you need to make sure that you're never on the ground when Falco is. This really limits your movement options, and you have to work much harder to gain stage control. On top of this, Falco can easily gain stage control by spamming lasers, and if avoiding them is your plan, you have to get out of the way. So in order to make this work, you've got to have great platform movement, lots and lots of tricks to make aerial approaches work, and you've got to make the most of the stage control you can muster. I've seen this strategy work, but it's tough.
2. Of course, your other option is reflecting the lasers, which is tougher from a technical perspective. It's also tough in terms of movement; sitting in one spot reflecting projectiles won't do much, other than annoy Falco and ensure you get hit by something other than lasers. It is possible to reflect lasers that are in front of you, contrary to what some threads might say. If you choose this plan, make sure you maximise your movement. Jump and wavedash out of parry as much as you can to keep your movement unpredictable and to avoid sitting in one spot for too long.
Another thing to consider, because you will eventually get hit, is that Falco's lasers won't keep you in hitstun forever. Often, you'll have the opportunity to act for a short time before you get hit again, and what you do in this time can make the difference of a whole stock.
What's your fastest option?
Parrying!
If Falco tries something like Laser > Dair, you only need 1 frame to stop his Dair. Of course, 1 frame is very fast, so it's impractical to try with such a small window, but in theory, that's all you need. In practice, you'll often get a much bigger window, and I have definitely seen (and done it myself) players parry an attack after getting hit by a laser. Purposefully running into lasers is silly, of course, but considering Falco really depends on his lasers to get in, showing that a follow-up after a laser isn't always safe even on-hit can throw your opponent off a lot.
A much easier option is to get away quickly! Your double-jump will armor through lasers very easily, so if you need to reset the situation, this is a very safe option, as long as you're aware that you're giving up space. Remember, above all else, that getting hit by a laser isn't so bad. Being overwhelmed by lasers is what makes them so dangerous. Keep your cool and don't try to do 10 things after you get hit.
Finally, the best way to deal with lasers is to make sure that Falco uses them as seldom as possible. You can do this by staying close enough that your opponent feels throwing out lasers is unsafe. In this situation, your opponent will either attack (in which case you can react and punish) or try to get some space, in which case you've gained more stage control (yay!).
There are different strategies for dealing with the dreaded laser. Some are more technically demanding than others, but I think they all work as long as you develop a real game plan around them rather than use them as a gimick. Some examples:
Avoid the lasers
Reflect everything
1. The first one sounds easier, but isn't, in my experience. In order to avoid the lasers consistently, you need to make sure that you're never on the ground when Falco is. This really limits your movement options, and you have to work much harder to gain stage control. On top of this, Falco can easily gain stage control by spamming lasers, and if avoiding them is your plan, you have to get out of the way. So in order to make this work, you've got to have great platform movement, lots and lots of tricks to make aerial approaches work, and you've got to make the most of the stage control you can muster. I've seen this strategy work, but it's tough.
2. Of course, your other option is reflecting the lasers, which is tougher from a technical perspective. It's also tough in terms of movement; sitting in one spot reflecting projectiles won't do much, other than annoy Falco and ensure you get hit by something other than lasers. It is possible to reflect lasers that are in front of you, contrary to what some threads might say. If you choose this plan, make sure you maximise your movement. Jump and wavedash out of parry as much as you can to keep your movement unpredictable and to avoid sitting in one spot for too long.
Another thing to consider, because you will eventually get hit, is that Falco's lasers won't keep you in hitstun forever. Often, you'll have the opportunity to act for a short time before you get hit again, and what you do in this time can make the difference of a whole stock.
What's your fastest option?
Parrying!
If Falco tries something like Laser > Dair, you only need 1 frame to stop his Dair. Of course, 1 frame is very fast, so it's impractical to try with such a small window, but in theory, that's all you need. In practice, you'll often get a much bigger window, and I have definitely seen (and done it myself) players parry an attack after getting hit by a laser. Purposefully running into lasers is silly, of course, but considering Falco really depends on his lasers to get in, showing that a follow-up after a laser isn't always safe even on-hit can throw your opponent off a lot.
A much easier option is to get away quickly! Your double-jump will armor through lasers very easily, so if you need to reset the situation, this is a very safe option, as long as you're aware that you're giving up space. Remember, above all else, that getting hit by a laser isn't so bad. Being overwhelmed by lasers is what makes them so dangerous. Keep your cool and don't try to do 10 things after you get hit.
Finally, the best way to deal with lasers is to make sure that Falco uses them as seldom as possible. You can do this by staying close enough that your opponent feels throwing out lasers is unsafe. In this situation, your opponent will either attack (in which case you can react and punish) or try to get some space, in which case you've gained more stage control (yay!).
Without lasers, Falco hardly has anything on Yoshi, though. I've found that all of his aerials are some of the easiest in the game to parry, and aside from that, all he has is Shine. But if your opponent isn't throwing out lasers or aerials, Shine is muuuch easier to deal with. Does he jump? Parry it. Does he run up to you? Hit him before he gets close enough to shine.
The number of times my Falco friend said "Stop parrying everything!" really made me feel okay about this matchup. I think it's certainly winnable for Yoshi.
Edit: I forgot to mention that you don't have to choose just one way to deal with lasers. Mixing it up will help you stay unpredictable!
Last edited: