Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[V3ctorMan]

I've been experimenting with Dair as well.. and it has it's many uses... Sadly I suck at Lcanceling it, so I usually go for other options, or auto-cancel/edge cancel.. and that works for me

Perhaps you guys should teach me that .. (besides me spamming the L/R triggers praying for it)

 

[Kimimaru]

You're not alone here VMan. I'm not so great at L-canceling it either, but I did use to practice it in training mode, which has helped a little bit.

 

[knightpraetor]

so strange to hear a high level player talking about l canceling problems with yoshi's dair. I don't remember having any problems with it in the 3 or 4 weeks when i played yoshi many years ago..but i bet it's harder when your opponents are distracting from your focus..back then everyone i played with was worse than me

 

[Purpletuce]

Combo stats continued. I'm going to do some rough numbers.

Fresh D-air l-cancelled into jab: (17 frames hitstun)
56%+ on Ganon/Falcon/Samus
53%+ on Doc
50%+ for Peach/Shiek/Marth
47%+ for Fox/Falco
42%+ for Puff

Fresh D-air l-cancelled into F-tilt/D-smash (putting this again for convenience) (20 frames hitstun)
76%+ on Samus/Ganon/CF
73%+ on Doc
69%+ on Peach/Shiek/Marth
65%+ on Falco/Fox
60%+ on Puff

Fresh D-air l-cancel into U-tilt: (22 frames hitstun)
92%+ on Samus/Ganon/CF
86%+ on Doc
81%+ on Peach/Shiek/Marth
77%+ on Falco/Fox
68%+ on Puff

Fresh D-air l-cancelled into U-smash: (25 frames hitstun)
111%+ on Samus/Ganon/CF
106%+ on Doc
100%+ on Peach/Shiek/Marth
95%+ on Falco/Fox
84%+ on Puff

Fresh AC D-air -> F-tilt/D-smash (17 frames hitstun):
56%+ on Ganon/Falcon/Samus
53%+ on Doc
50%+ for Peach/Shiek/Marth
47%+ for Fox/Falco
42%+ for Puff

Fresh AC D-air -> U-tilt (19 frames hitstun):
70%+ on Samus/Ganon/CF
66%+ on Doc
63%+ on Peach/Shiek/Marth
59%+ on Falco/Fox
52%+ on Puff

Fresh AC D-air -> U-smash (22 frames hitstun)
92%+ on Samus/Ganon/CF
86%+ on Doc
81%+ on Peach/Shiek/Marth
77%+ on Falco/Fox
68%+ on Puff

 

[Bones0]

Combo stats continued. I'm going to do some rough numbers.

I hope you unstaled your dair by SDing before confirming each minimum percentage...

Nvm, you said "fresh" so you probably did.

 

[Purpletuce]

Again, those were all calculated for frame perfect situations, assuming fresh, and that the multiple hits all have the same, full KB, etc. I'm going to assume most of the time, you might have your last hitbox connect slightly above the ground, or you might not start the next move the exact frame you can, so some of these you should test, and see what is practical for you. . . Also, these were tasted for the heaviest character in an particular grouping, so in the Marth/Shiek/Peach groups, generally Marth would have enough hitstun to get hit by the combo 1% earlier, or Fox earlier than Falco, etc.

 

[Kimimaru]

I was going to hold off on posting this until the bracket images come up, but I suppose they'll need more time.

I did pretty well at the tournament yesterday. They had an amateur bracket and a pro bracket. Top 6 out of amateur bracket makes it into the pro bracket. To sum things up, I steamrolled through the amateur bracket, losing only one or two games and not losing a single set, putting me in the top 6.

In the pro bracket I had to face Alan for my first match and won again. I then lost to Shroomed and narrowly lost to Darrell in our set. I found that you have to keep Samus close to you if you want to win the MU. On a side note, does anyone know if her Grapple Beam can ever break Yoshi's super armor? If it can't, or can only at absurdly high percents, then I have an idea for edgeguarding her.

Overall it was a lot of fun! I was playing on point and even felt like I was overwhelming my opponents at times. I also managed to get a few Parry -> N-air punishes against some players in friendlies. I hope to post the bracket images once they come up.

 

[Bones0]

Good stuff. Do you have any vids of your sets with Shroomed/Darrell coming our way?

 

[V3ctorMan]

Awesome Job Kimimaru! .. I'm really interested in your experience with Shroomed.. haha.. I've played him in MM's at both Apex's and though I lost both MM's in the whole set.. I've always been able to take game(s) off him.. but usually losing the set 3-1, or 3-2, or 2-1 or whichever... Hopefully you got some cool ideas..or observations.. etc.. Again awesome job at the tourney

Also yeah vs Darrell too.. I'd like to hear some of your insight vs Samus.. the only top Samus I've gotten to play is plup, and DJN.. and, though I've won a few, Plup's won more... Perhaps there's more I can learn also...

Can't wait to discuss the Samus MU, I believe we can each learn from each of our experiences.. ^^

 

[Kimimaru]

Good stuff. Do you have any vids of your sets with Shroomed/Darrell coming our way?

No, unfortunately not. I was going to play Shroomed on stream but Scar kicked us off before we started because he was playing Tafokints. I didn't play Darrell on a recording setup either. None of the amateur bracket matches were streamed either, but I hope some of them were recorded.

Awesome Job Kimimaru! .. I'm really interested in your experience with Shroomed.. haha.. I've played him in MM's at both Apex's and though I lost both MM's in the whole set.. I've always been able to take game(s) off him.. but usually losing the set 3-1, or 3-2, or 2-1 or whichever... Hopefully you got some cool ideas..or observations.. etc.. Again awesome job at the tourney

Also yeah vs Darrell too.. I'd like to hear some of your insight vs Samus.. the only top Samus I've gotten to play is plup, and DJN.. and, though I've won a few, Plup's won more... Perhaps there's more I can learn also...

Can't wait to discuss the Samus MU, I believe we can each learn from each of our experiences.. ^^

Shroomed rarely plays Dr. Mario in friendlies, so I should have much more experience in the MU than I currently do, haha. This is actually the first time I played him in tournament in Singles, and I noticed that he plays a lot different from the Shroomed I'm used to. He likes to stay around you and pressure you a bit. He then backs off until you think its safe and comes in again with a Jab -> D-smash or something else when you least expect it.

Edgeguarding Dr. Mario isn't too hard since you can throw an egg at him as he pills and the splash from the egg explosion will still hit him. You'll always want to go for the edge so you can punish him while he's in recovery lag.

Darrell is an interesting Samus. He's a tiny bit more on the aggressive side, but he knows when to back off and play it safe. He spaces his U-tilts insanely well and uses his projectiles to trap you in bad positions.

 

[Violence]

Maaaan. I didn't drop any friendlies against you this time(out of our 7), and I wanted to get you in bracket. Sadly, I lost to Luis and you beat Alan, so we dodged each other twice.

 

[V3ctorMan]

No, unfortunately not. I was going to play Shroomed on stream but Scar kicked us off before we started because he was playing Tafokints. I didn't play Darrell on a recording setup either. None of the amateur bracket matches were streamed either, but I hope some of them were recorded.



Shroomed rarely plays Dr. Mario in friendlies, so I should have much more experience in the MU than I currently do, haha. This is actually the first time I played him in tournament in Singles, and I noticed that he plays a lot different from the Shroomed I'm used to. He likes to stay around you and pressure you a bit. He then backs off until you think its safe and comes in again with a Jab -> D-smash or something else when you least expect it.

Edgeguarding Dr. Mario isn't too hard since you can throw an egg at him as he pills and the splash from the egg explosion will still hit him. You'll always want to go for the edge so you can punish him while he's in recovery lag.

Darrell is an interesting Samus. He's a tiny bit more on the aggressive side, but he knows when to back off and play it safe. He spaces his U-tilts insanely well and uses his projectiles to trap you in bad positions.

Haha, I see... I'm pretty familiar w/the Doc MU, (well at least how Shroomed plays Doc) he's one of my favorite players to play.. it's always fun watching him too.. I have a pretty good general idea of how to play Doc... I was mainly looking for ideas/conversation vs Samus... as us Yoshi's are LIKELY (I could be wrong) but I think there are more top level Samus than Doc...

I just wanted your insight vs Samus (that you've noticed at least) I used to dislike this MU alot, but now i've come to terms with it, and I think (in general) it's not even that bad... just a long match depending on the Samus... Honestly thanks to Plup.... I've gotten most of the insight...

I guess I wanna know everyone's thoughts...

also @ Bones - sorry I didn't see your post about 2 pages back or so, about how I deal with DD' happy players... and I have a good/general idea of how to handle it..(though in general it's not fun) I'll writeup on that a bit later too, for how Yoshi players can deal w/defense happy styles..

 

[Bones0]

Since Samus players love to CC so much, especially at low %, you should all try to use dair () to break it. As long as you cross her up, I'm not sure what she can really punish with other than a measly up-B which you should be SDIing out of after taking < 5%.

 

[Kimimaru]

I'll post more detailed thoughts on the Samus MU when I have more time.

Maaaan. I didn't drop any friendlies against you this time(out of our 7), and I wanted to get you in bracket. Sadly, I lost to Luis and you beat Alan, so we dodged each other twice.

Yeah, haha. I think I ran into way too many of your CC D-smashes in those friendlies so I'll be more careful next time. You won fair and square, though. I hope to play you in bracket sometime!

Bones, that's something I'll try to look into. I usually use F-air, D-tilt, and Egg Lay until Samus is unable to CC N-air (Yoshi's N-air is too good).

 

[Purpletuce]

Violence, where do you go to tournaments? Your profile says you're in BC, and I played you in WA once. . . I'm confused.

Also, today I was playing around with more D-air stuff, and I don't really like it too much, except for when I knocked my opponent onto a platform. (20+% jab resets are awesome.) Got a 0-death that incorporated this. Also, I FINALLY did a cool thing that I've probably tried at least a dozen times. D-air an opponent on a platform (them or their shield) -> parry their grab -> shield drop U-air.

Also, thoughts on jumping into an opponent who has been knocked down to bait getup attack, then DJ -> punish? I've done this sometimes and it works, but there are probably better options. . .

Also, I've been doing lots of shield drop -> double jump -> rising U-air/N-air, both of those set up really well for combos IMO. . . anybody else use these? I see lots of shield drop falling U-air. . .

I'll add Samus thoughts soon. . .

 

[V3ctorMan]

Shield drop<Jump<Uair<edgecancel to combo starter... is the other option I use...

or the super mind game (likely never to hit, but if you're playing an opponent who also is good at shielddropping...and likes to stay in shield... shielddrop<jump<waveland<Grab...
^this looks SOO badass when you land it..

 

[Purpletuce]

You could shave 6 frames off of that by doing shield drop -> jump -> aerial land -> grab, although that is pretty hard. I've messe around with shield drop -> jump -> aerial land -> D-smash. . . that also super cool IMO, but way too hard/situational to be practical. AKA 90% of Yoshi's super cool things. . .

 

[Kimimaru]

Aerial lands actually have the same exact timing as wavelands if you do them falling off of platforms, so you can mix up your movement a bit. The timing for them in most other cases is stricter, though.

 

[Bones0]

Aerial lands only have 4 frames of landing lag because the aerials are actually autocancelling. You can view which frames each aerial ACs on in the hitbox thread. Dair has the most starting AC frames, with 15. That means landing in the first 15 frames of a dair will cause only 4 frames of landing lag as opposed to the 13 frames of landing lag when it is L-cancelled, and that is the part of every aerial that you land during when you aerial land. Wavelanding, by comparison, results in 10 frames of landing lag, and you also have to be higher above the platform to waveland than you do to aerial land.

 

[Kimimaru]

I should have been more specific: N-air aerial lands actually have the same exact timing as wavelands if you do them falling off of platforms. I don't know about any of the other aerials.

 

[Purpletuce]

No idea what you mean by landing while falling through a platform. . .

Since we're talking about doing them out of shield drop, you must jump first, then come from below, in which case I'm pretty sure aerial land has a more strict timing.

Thoughts on Yoshi vs. Samus:

Spoiler

I've only played this in friendlies, so I haven't tried too hard to win, so I mainly played slightly aggressive, as in I was willing to approach-ish.

When they're in missile spam on low platform routine, I think parrying works well, although if you parry into a jump(my main option out of parry since you don't have to commit to anything and have tons of options afterward) you'll get hit by the second missile, which sucks. Challenging missiles with ECE is scary because they can clip your nose. . .

Edgeguarding samus is too fun, I think she is my favorite character to edgeguard. Eggs that hit her top bomb gimp her pretty well(you can jump into them if you want), eggs that hit her out of grapple takes her grapple away, and her UpB is similar to anybody else's except it is a little faster. Either go for a Dtilt/Dsmash or grab the ledge. . .

It is hardish to combo her, usually you can only get quick little combos, like B-air U-air, then try to catch her again before she lands. Lately, I like to try to expect her to either D-air, N-air or move away from you. If you can stay under her it racks up damage decently.

When she spaces U-tilt, it covers the air really well, so it covers you coming in high, as well as you coming short on her. It isn't really easy to punish, I think I usually go for Dtilt and Fsmash.

I like knowing that she won't really approach from the air, because that sounds funny. I think if you're at D-tilt spacing and stay back, she isn't much of a threat, unless she has a charge shot. . .

Parrying charge shots is cool, and I think it is surprisingly easy. Not sure why, but it just seems like I have an easier time with it. . . Also, her charge shot can clip you when you're on the ledge. . . learned that the hard way.

Just thoughts, not sure if everything is the best option, or if I'm wrong on some areas. Just thoughts. I have two local samus players, but one only plays doc lately, and the other is in grad school and nearly never has time. :\

Edit: I started that post before Kimimaru and Bones's posts, in response to them:

Still don't know what you mean by landing while falling off a platform, also, pretty sure it is a property of the DJ, not ACing moves. My counerpoint: You can aerial land using shield. Second counterpoint, you can do it while your momentum is moving up, so you normally wouldn't even land on the platform.

 

[Kimimaru]

I said falling off platforms, like when you walk off of them to platform dance or waveland.

 

[Purpletuce]

So are you talking about running off of the top platform and landing on a side one(or side one onto the stage)? As in simply landing on the stage? When I say aerial land I'm talking about landing with an aerial, like N-airing as you come up through a platform. (maybe everyone though I meant do an aerial then land before it comes out? no reason to do that. . .)

If that is the case then I don't know what you mean by same timing. . . Are you saying they both have the same ending lag? Waveland takes 10 frames lag, landing (or AC an aerial) takes 4 frames.

Is DJ land a more appropriate term for landing on a platform as you input an aerial while you're tangential to the platform. (Not practical IMO, that is why I was saying it would be cool to use, but impractical)

 

[Bones0]

Aerial landing isn't a Yoshi-specific technique. Mario can aerial land uair, and though Falco can't do it to halt his vertical momentum, he can aerial at the peak of his jump to land on a plat that he would have otherwise not landed on. Yoshi's DJ probably makes it possible for him to do it all the time because his collision detection is altered and it's also slow. It's related to how WLing is much easier during characters' double jumps when they are somersaulting compared to out of their FHs where the character is standing straight up in the air. I always use dair to aerial land because it seems much easier to do it with than other moves (ignoring the fact that inputting the actual dair is more difficult than just tapping A to nair).

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm pretty sure that is completely irrelevant, because Yoshi's landing works nothing like those two examples. I'm going to just say it is Yoshi specific, because it is. . . (don't really want to argue this because it doesn't matter, believe whatever you want Bones.)

 

[Bones0]

You're going to say it's Yoshi specific because you want to? lol It's obviously the same mechanic, even if it works a little differently with Yoshi's DJ. The aerial causes the character to immediately land. Not that complicated. If you want to make claims about mechanics, that's fine, but at least back it up with actual evidence. Simply calling something different and saying you don't want to argue about the baseless claim you just made is pretty immature. If you don't think it matters, then why comment on it at all?

 

[Kimimaru]

I'll give an example of what I meant:

Say you're on the right edge of the top platform of Yoshi's Story and you want to waveland to the other side. You can fall off to the right then DJ left and waveland onto it. The timing for that waveland is the same as the timing for an aerial land N-air, so you'd just press A/Z instead of L/R.

 

[Jackie]

Yoshi mains are so good at being hostile. The ****, guys.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Nah, I think they misunderstanding each other is all... I think I know what bones was saying.... .. and I don't believe i've ever been hostile with bones..


As very being "hostile" I wouldn't say we were ALL like that... xD... At the time I wasn't good at "absorbing" criticism from "certain people" Now I just ignore it, because I know most of the time I'm right anyway, and I've proven my worth/value, multiple times, most of the world knows already so I'm done trying to defend what I don't need to defend anymore...

Now it's just a matter of helping the other Yoshi's get to that level also.. so we can all learn from each other... (Kinda like how you taught me things Jackie)

EDIT: Yes you're right on that also Kimi, on Purple, but it's usually a misunderstanding of something.... Leffen has had a similar reaction to being corrected, when people aren't intending to make people upset...

 

[Kimimaru]

Purpletuce I noticed you take some of what Bones says personally when he isn't intending to offend you. Sometimes it seems that someone is coming off as offending when that's not the case.

In any case, it isn't a Yoshi-specific technique. I believe any of the other characters that can DJC can also do it. Yoshi's double jump in particular is unique, aside from the nice superarmor it provides, because it moves him the lowest on the first few frames and is the fastest(?).

 

[Purpletuce]

Just tried it, and no, the other djc characters can't do it. I get upset when people make absolute claims that are false/not adequately proven, it seems bones makes controversial claims the most.

 

[Bones0]

Nah, I think they misunderstanding each other is all... I think I know what bones was saying.... .. and I don't believe i've ever been hostile with bones..

I've had enough of your attitude, mister!

Just tried it, and no, the other djc characters can't do it. I get upset when people make absolute claims that are false/not adequately proven, it seems bones makes controversial claims the most.

I may have controversial opinions, but you'd be hard pressed to find an example of me posting inaccurately about a game mechanic. If you feel like I post controversial claims, it's probably because in this thread alone I've had people disagree with me about various mechanics, and each time others came forward after to agree that I was right. I'm not trying to support an appeal for authority here. If you think I could even possibly be wrong, I have no problem with you challenging my idea. Feel free to throw out an alternate hypothesis, and then we can progress like the scientific community by challenge each hypothesis until one or the other is disproven (or perhaps both disproven, resulting in a third hypothesis). That's not what happened though. I gave a solid explanation for why I heavily believe that platform cancelling is a universal mechanic that just happens to occur more often with Yoshi's DJ and aerials than with other characters'. You literally justified your position by saying "because it is", which is a downright parody of what ignorant people say when they are trying to justify stupid beliefs. "Why is it immoral to be gay, dad? Because... it just is, Billy."


Whatever, I'm over it. I'm probably just going to unsub from this thread. It's been nothing but a headache.

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't think I've seen anybody concede that you're right about anything, only miscommunications. . . previously I wasn't claiming that I was right 'because I am', that wasn't an argument, that was me not being interested in an argument and simply stating what I thought of it. IF I was going to make an argument for how Yoshi's aerial landing from his DJ is different from anyone else's then it would look like this:

Spoiler

Yoshi's aerial land from DJ can be done with an A or R input when he is tangential to the platform. This happens at any point in his jump, before the attack can start, and doesn't need any momentum, or change in momentum. Nothing else is like that.

Your argument for Mario's landing is incorrect because it does not work for any point in his jump, rather at a certain position, with a certain move he can move his landing box down, and if the platform happens to be right there, he will land due to the collision. Yoshi's landing does not require for him to use any particular move, not do any of them start up.

Your argument for Falco's landing(or any other character who raises themselves with an attack) is wrong because it relies on him starting up a move that raises his landing box, and then having him falling onto it afterwards. This is different than Yoshi's mechanic because it requires the move to start and doesn't work with any input.

A potential argument for moves that stop momentum such as shine is incorrect because that move stops momentum independently of the platform.

I initially didn't want to argue about this because it is obvious that Yoshi's aerial land is unique to him. I didn't really want to waste time arguing about something this obvious as well as unnecessary.

Also I don't think you really have grounds to make an appeal to authority, you're not really a known name for being a good player/really knowledgeable/etc. I think you're known for making strange claims. To me, you're a guy that makes controversial claims.

 

[Kimimaru]

Purpletuce, I believe pressing R on a platform simply does a waveland in place, which is different from an aerial land on a platform. You can see the little dust clouds that show up when you do a waveland, unlike an aerial land which doesn't feature the little dust clouds.

 

[MrHazuki]

I mostly find it annoying when I autoland like this. Never thought about implementing it.

 

[Kimimaru]

The bracket results are up:

Amateur bracket: http://i.imgur.com/U08KkcF.png
Pro bracket: http://i.imgur.com/ose6XkW.png

My name is under Thomas because we call most people by their real names since we know each other well.

I had to go against my Doubles teammate in my first match .

Lol, I just realized that PewPewU used another alias in this tournament.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Interesting that you had to go amateur bracket to get into a pro bracket... Kind of an interesting concept...

Hopefully you got some games recorded so I can give you some critique! <3

I like giving timestamp critiques <3

 

[Kimimaru]

We had a lot of new entrants so we decided to go with this. All ranked players were automatically placed into the pro bracket.

I wish I got some matches recorded. I'll seriously make an effort to get a match recorded from now on.

 

[Purpletuce]

I would really like some kimimaru videos. I bet your region is competitive for the stream though.

 

[Kimimaru]

What are everyone's thoughts on the Ganondorf MU? I feel that you get an almost guaranteed combo once he's in shield because you can easily pressure him with DJC U-airs and N-airs. I believe U-air chains start around 15%, so if you can get those in you'll get a guaranteed combo resulting in ~80-90%.

Parries are risky in this MU because Ganondorf's moves are so powerful that the cost for missing a parry is very high. You should be relatively safe in your shield anyway. Be careful about absorbing hits with your superarmor because his moves will break it early.