Ask KirbyKaze sheik questions (better than mango's)

[SPAWN]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7209044#post7209044

Help mah Sheik plox.

 

[Jun.]

should I approach?

lol

i found that the answer usually is no

 

[soap]

should I approach?

lol

i found that the answer usually is no

lol, sheik is a brawl character

 

[nicaboy]

so i have a question. now i honestly like the peach match up but i find myself struggling mostly on her low %. now i dont need a review on the whole match up but if any one got little tips and tricks that be good. as for me chain grab her like 3 4 times f tilt to f air. but i hate it when she cc lol. thanks guys. oh as well as any tips for punishing peaches in general be nice too.

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol, sheik is a brawl character

lol, sheik is a brawl character

lol, sheik is a brawl character

lol, sheik is a brawl character

lol, sheik is a brawl character

lol, sheik is a brawl character

lol, sheik is a brawl character

FOR EMPHASIS

so i have a question. now i honestly like the peach match up but i find myself struggling mostly on her low %. now i dont need a review on the whole match up but if any one got little tips and tricks that be good. as for me chain grab her like 3 4 times f tilt to f air. but i hate it when she cc lol. thanks guys. oh as well as any tips for punishing peaches in general be nice too.

What's helpful to know about the Peach matchup at low percent is the difference between true crouch cancel and ASDI down. Basically, there is no difference except that ASDI down happens during move lag or during moves, whereas crouch cancel is when they're actually ducking, or going into the duck animation.

When Peach plucks a turnip, she's not really "crouch canceling" she's just ASDIing down. So your dash attack (and other moves but let's focus on dash attack) will knock her over much earlier than usual. So at relatively low percent, if she pulls a turnip, if you're close enough to dash attack, feel free to do so (~+30%).

For Peaches that just spam float back FC Fair, just remember that it's like Ganon. Her moves are really strong, but they're also slow, you can Nair or Fair her out of her float back Fair if you're fast enough.

If she's very ground heavy without turnips, and doesn't stick to just float back Fair but also mixes with Bair and Nair (her fast aerials), I'm sorry to say it but just camp. Beyond super spaced Bairs and Fairs, too much is punishable. You can often get away with D-smash though, because no Peaches CC the D-smash and then wait a bit and Dash Attack your lag (except Xelic, d*mn him).

You can space F-tilt perfectly and not be CC D-smashed. If you do this, you can grab them after the D-smash. However, this fails to other things like Peach simply D-tilting (stupid better range on D-tilt I hate it). For that reason I wouldn't recommend it, but it's worth consideration.

Needle to grab is always a good move. Needles are also always a good move.

Oh and shield grab her jabs. Her jabs can be shield-grabbed. Remember to CC grab if she does the double jab. I fail at this, but Kage's really good at it. It really forces them to stick to D-smash after aerials or more aerials, which is good. Because nobody except JFox spams repeat aerials, and after D-smash (if it only hits once on shield) you can WD out and grab her or D-smash her.

tl;dr low percents on Peach are gay as balls without grabs.

 

[nicaboy]

lol i remember you saying wd back to f tilt is amazing and it helps me not only in this match up but others as well. ya needles are helpful as well.

i think im going to go ahead and play campy although its not my style i generaly do better that way. its just that i get mad impatient so i rush in alot. as for her jabs its funny I NEVER KNEW THAT!!! omg im gonna play a little later and see how that works.

thanks.

unfortunately I cant camp in teams too hard. but i usually wait until they whiff a down smash grab them and do as i please. Usually my brother (who is my teammate alot) can follow up with up smash(fox main).

 

[KirbyKaze]

You don't need to camp for like 8 minutes, but waiting for her to do something punishable isn't a bad idea. Similarly, pressing attack safely and carefully, rather than ramboing into her dress and Fair and taking 13 - 60% is pretty good too.

Camping Peach is only really necessary on gay levels and at low percent. After that you can continue to do so, and it's safer, but it becomes less necessary as her damage builds and her crouch game dries up. There are some advantages to approaching her, too.

 

[nicaboy]

Lol i should have wrote moreinformatively. Like I said I like the match up just lower % can get kinda annoying. Overall you been helpful. Thanks again.

I hate too say but honestly the only match in the game I do HATE is jigs. That has too be my weakest match. I get pushed too the point I just go fox. Fortunately its just a prefernce though. Its never that bad unless im gonna play mango/sliq or some other good jigs. Then I think man this guy beat m2k's fox **** that im going sheik

Again thank you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Sheik is fine vs Puff, you just have to play extremely gay and hyper conservatively. Nothing's really safe on her but a few things, so you basically spam the f*ck out of those and do moves that eat her aerials when she tries to pressure you that way. Ducking is probably her biggest power against Sheik. When she gets close and is ducking, you really don't have any options but to retreat.

Fox is definitely more equipped to deal with Puff.

 

[soap]

my entire style was formed around combating cc at low percents.

but its always a good thing to have super careful spacing

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's pretty gay that Sheik needs to hit 2 needles to needle grab Jigglypuff until some percent I've forgotten about, if the Jigglypuff is ducking prior to the needles hitting (which is a lot). And you have to do them very low, too, which also presents a problem because Puff doesn't have to sit there and take pins, she can just jump and kick you (or block and do stuff after block; Puff's shield game is pretty good).

I'm getting bad at combatting CC. I do too many jabs now. It's pretty bad. I should probably hold back and try to focus on just keeping my range optimal. Getting antsy isn't good.

 

[soap]

It's pretty gay that Sheik needs to hit 2 needles to needle grab Jigglypuff until some percent I've forgotten about, if the Jigglypuff is ducking prior to the needles hitting (which is a lot). And you have to do them very low, too, which also presents a problem because Puff doesn't have to sit there and take pins, she can just jump and kick you (or block and do stuff after block; Puff's shield game is pretty good).

I'm getting bad at combatting CC. I do too many jabs now. It's pretty bad. I should probably hold back and try to focus on just keeping my range optimal. Getting antsy isn't good.

run up and shield and hope they do something dumb and let u grab.

 

[KirbyKaze]

But what if they don't

 

[soap]

switch to fox and do drillshine.

kinda ridiculous how easy it is for fox to get around cc at any percent.

 

[KirbyKaze]

kinda ridiculous how easy it is for fox to get around cc at any percent.

Low Nairshine also beats CC. And his grab can go through her imperfect ducks (ie. not her intial duck). And his projectile hits her so much easier than ours and for so much more damage in such a smaller period of time. And his back air does 1% more than ours too ;_;

Darn Fox, you're so good.

But in all seriousness, beyond some Nairs out of shield, Shines out of shield, and some Up+Bs out of shield, Fox can pretty much negate most characters' defensive options without needing to space entirely. He can add even more safety by doing all of this behind them, too, and cut down even more defensive options. If you try to camp distance, he can shoot you or play super distance games with his broken speed. Plus the ultimate lagless safety of the shine.

Sigh.

Fox is so good. I know Sheik is only marginally worse and stuff, but man. Man oh man. Fox. He's so good.

edit: Holy jeebus it took that much text to get my sig to show.

 

[soap]

where did u dig that quote out from?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I lurk a lot of boards.

 

[nicaboy]

Lol ya fox is too good . But i don't main sheik for no season. Sometimes i even feel she does better vs everyone excluding fox. More in particular marth and a samus. Thats just me though.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

That azen quote is also too good.

 

[soap]

o yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, check out maaaaaaaaaaa sigggggggggggggggggggg

edit: ggaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[Binx]

I agree on the Sheik vs Peach advice, thats pretty much what I do is just needle and space bairs until ~50%, I think thats when tilts will knock her over, then just be ready to tech chase if that happens or combo if it doesn't.

 

[JFox]

Because nobody except JFox spams repeat aerials, and after D-smash (if it only hits once on shield) you can WD out and grab her or D-smash her.

tl;dr low percents on Peach are gay as balls without grabs.

WTF was that supposed to mean kaze.

and yes i'm name searching, b*tches.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm saying you do something that more Peaches should do, but don't for some mysterious reason that I have yet to uncover.

I think FC Nair --> FC Nair is fine shield pressure mixup, just like the delayed jabs, and the D-smash, and grabbing. Mixups make for good gravy, I hear.

 

[JFox]

kaze, you too are a tasty fellow.

most peaches can't do it cuz they are horribly slow and have no patience to practice at home.

kaze, can u really grab peach after she dsmash's ur shield? Every time people try that on me, i am able to jab in time to interrupt. its possible that they are starting the wd oos later than technically possible of course, but the window must be pretty tight. Any idea if the frame rate of peach's dsmash actually allows you to truly grab her?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Let's explore this frame data.

2+ is pretty much no-no. Either your shield will fail you, or there's too much stun.

D smash

Total: 39
Hit: 5-6, 9-10, 13-14, 17-18, 21-22
Charge frame: 3
Legs invincible: 3-24

Shield stun: 7
Shield hit lag: 6
Advantage (last hit): 17

I don't think the information is accurate, though, because there's certainly more than 7 frames of shield stun. I think he had a typo. If I had to guess, I'd wager he subtracted the hit from the total and forgot to add the shield stun and shield hit lag when calculating it, or something. I also don't think that shield stun vs hit lag is accurate, if that were the case her D-smash wouldn't connect multiple times on shields and you could side-step in between the hits because it would be only a +1 for shield stun and there are 3 frames in between each hitbox so you could buffer rolls on D-smashes in the middle of your shield. Finally, this isn't consistent with the more recent shield pressure topic, which lists most moves that do 13% with values closer to 07 / 14 for shield hitlag / shield stun, or 06 / 12, etc.

I am about 90% sure that Peach's D-smash gives her +7 per hit, or something close to it. +7 makes sense to me, because after hitlag and shield stun it would allow her following hits to connect up perfectly, which seems logical enough (although this is smash, so if it's +6 then oh well). So that would mean (assuming she hits on the first possible frame)

01 d-smash starts
02
03
04
05 d-smash hits shield, hitlag for however many frames and shield stun for the same amount of frames (net advantage formula is just [shield stun] - [hitlag], so for us that would be 14 - 7 = 7, so 7 frames of stun)
06 shield stun [red = shield stun]
07
08
09
10
11
12
13
14 stun is over

At this point, if the second hit hasn't hit your shield because you've been pushed, it takes 14 frames to wavedash out of shield with Sheik, and another 7 to grab (21). Because Peach's last hitbox for D-smash is on frame 22, you can't rush in ASAP. You have to wait. Her move ends on 39, so there's a gap in between of 17 frames.

So, it looks like it shouldn't, but I think what you could do is just WD down on frame 14, so you're ready on 28 (or 30 or so if you're imperfect) and then just dash grab her. Or just start the wavedash slightly early so her D-smash just misses you.

WD OoS D-smash always works to punish it, though, because it's faster.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

So, any advice of Sheik against Ganons?

Most of the obvious things are known such as chain-grabbing, but I want your knowledge and explanation so I know more about the Ganon and Sheik match-up

 

[KirbyKaze]

If he's on the ground, throw needles to make him jump and / or wait just outside his D-tilt range (while ducked) for him to do anything and punish him. Do not throw needles at him at close range unless you have platform support or are very, very smart about it. If he shields, duck + grab him.

If he jumps into the air, just chuck Nairs or Bairs at him really angrily. Make sure to space so that you will eat his double jump if he tries to do that jump back + double jump back Fair crap. Or just dash under him and then do F-tilt / U-tilt / Uair / other moves really quickly so his Dair doesn't come out and then **** him.

Sheik should never be grabbed by Ganon. Don't get grabbed by Ganon.

edit: don't be dumb. If you're ducked and you see him going for Dair or Fair, get out of the way or do a fast move that will hit him before his move reaches you.

 

[Jun.]

camp the ganon till he gets pissed and appraoches wrong

profit $$$

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

I understand. I recently lost against Kira's Sheik in a MM. He was nice and gave me some important advice. Thanks for your input guys!

 

[MaNg0]

i hate when people pull out frames

stupid kirbykaze

 

[KirbyKaze]

Frames are impractical most of the time anyways, but he asked for them so I gave them to him.

And you're mean.

 

[MaNg0]

frames are dumb

just c if u can do it

if u cant u cant

*** FRAMES

*anti frames*

 

[KirbyKaze]

Enough of frames how do I beat Marth with Sheik and Fox with Sheik tell me you strange child.

edit: Frames are fun for burning time and sometimes give good insight into how risky stuff is. Frames have also proven just how gay some strategies really are, and have helped make a lot of characters gayer than they should be. Frames aren't necessary but they're cool.

*pro frames*

 

[MaNg0]

marth on sheik - be super agressive

fox on sheik - forward tilt = ur best friend

gg

 

[nicaboy]

lol sheik vs ganon i see what you did there bizz.

 

[Jun.]

Mangoes sometimes hurt my stomach. They also get caught in between my teeth. They also have **** shieks.

 

[soap]

i hate when people pull out frames

stupid kirbykaze

i think lil mango is jus mad that this thread is still better than his sheik one.

r u still going to e52? I think im goin

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Lolz nicaboy. It's for future references. I do not think you see what I did there. Thankfully, I already have some experiences against Sheiks from Nor-Cal sheik mains

 

[SPAWN]

Fox is too gay for ftilt to be your best friend. He can just cc it then grab you then Sheik starts to cry.

Sup Sheik boards, stupid work consuming my swf time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

F-tilt is really good vs Fox when he's anywhere but ground level with you.