Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!

[-Chad-]

So a couple days ago N64 and myself did a Pika tutorial video thats 3 hours long and covers a lot about him

http://www.twitch.tv/pikachad/c/4081228

Perhaps helpful to someone out there. Maybe we should make a thread here for it?

 

[dkuo]

I watched a bit of it. good stuff guys

btw the bit about strongest uncharged usmash - I think axe mentioned that its just straight up the strongest usmash period. the 'uncharged' part is kind of a misconception lol

also i took some notes! only for a while though. i think people would find this useful written down. if you guys want to continue with this feel free 8)

from 00:00 to 33:40

Attributes:
- Fast on the ground (not Fox though)
- Good aerial momentum
- Fast shffl game
- Good momentum and speed allows for followups and reads
- Very solid recovery, difficult to cover all options (not Peach or Puff though)
- Medium floatiness
- Defensive play is not stellar, but has options (think PikaChad)
- Aggressive play is very speed-based and mixup-heavy (think Axe)
- Fast playstyle and good mobility allows control of the game's momentum
- Very good edgeguarding: many options, many setups, good offstage, fast reach to edge

Weaknesses:
- Light weight and fallspeed makes him combo food
- Pika gets very easily crouchcancel-countered
- Chaingrabbed (ICs, Sheik, Marios)
- Smallest shield in the game (Chad uses a lot of light shield to negate his small shield size)
- 3rd lowest grab range (but decent throws)
- General low range
- No safe approach: generally commit to nair or uair
- Subpar neutral game against better mobility/range opponents (ie Fox outmobility-ing Pika)

Worst matchups:
- Chad: ICs, then Puff. Doesn't mind Sheik or Peach (but they're still bad)
- N64: ICs, Puff, Peach

Jolt:
- Vulnerable and doesn't do too much - lots of cooldown, very telegraphed
- Good edgeguarding arc: strong against low recovery (Samus, Marth, etc)
- Can force fullhops due to its bouncing arc (or high float from Peach)
- However remember that opponents can attack through it pretty easily
- Chad: if Falco is trying to laser in, can jolt from side plat to force approach
- Running fullhop jolt > running followup (if jolt hits or shielded)

Thunder:
- Good for the fact that you can kill with usmash > thunder combo (thunderflip)
- Only character that can hit opponents that high
- Ledgehop thunder for style points I guess
- The cloud that spawns is the sweetspot
- Can be reflected/caped/etc

Skullbash:
- Recovery, not necessary but gives option
- Don't skullbash too close to just get edgeguarded
- A smash skullbash goes further than a normal skullbash
- Dkuo addition: good rest punish vs Puff! But be careful on sloped edges http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMwtfmYYm_I

Quick attack:
- Lots of tricks!
- Versatility and distance makes it great
- Adjust angles on each segment, but hard to execute
- Can steal people's jumps (watch Axe edgeguarding)
- Quick attack into stage will have very high landing lag
- A little lag when you land from the air (punishable if you have low distance)
- Sweetspot edgehog from above cuts lag
- Can quickattack from stage to ledge for fast hogging
- Stretches hitbox: can get hit by attacks that aren't close to your actual position
- Dkuo addition: when you enter helpless state theres a few frames where you cant control air momentum
- Dkuo addition: if you're right by a ledge's lip and upb off and back, you'll edgehog

<this is where i stopped, when the discussion on jab starts>

Throws:
- Bthrow: great edgeguard setup
- Fthrow: low% keeps close & allows more pressure, Marth/Sheik DI in at 0 means a free grab
- Uthrow: cg ff'ers or aerial
- Dthrow: force ff'er techs, force floaties' mixups to aerial/jump/land/etc (low use)

Meta/MU stuff:
- Chad's super-meta trick vs Peach: catch turnips and hope they get discouraged LOL
- Main combo starter: falling nair or rising uair
- Combos don't do much damage, but Pika doesn't need too much thanks to usmash + edgeguarding

 

[-Chad-]

Wow having it listed like this is pretty damn awesome, makes me think N64 and I did a decent job :o

 

[dkuo]

interestingly if your guide goes on for another 2 and a half hours like this
the list would be 6 times as long once finished LOL

 

[N64]

pika is a neat char with many neat things.
was (and always is) a fun thing to talk about, chad.
neat list dkuo lol

 

[ramenchu]

Thank you guys for the video! Really helps the sucky Pika players like myself. Also, thanks David for the list, the video is pretty lengthy hahaha gotta find the time to watch the entire thing

Gotta make Pikachu more popular!! Wonder why he's even so disfavored

 

[N64]

Neither Chad nor I are particularly good at being concise heh. Our apologies on the length. In our defense though, it's hard to not go on and on about how awesome pikachu is!

 

[-Chad-]

Anytime I talk about something I really like, I end up talking someone's ear off for like hours on end so yeah trying to stay on track was hard.

Just the other day people were trying to leave the tourny but I kept talking to them about how awesome Aces Wild(a game I've been attempting to speedrun) is and why they should play it. For like an hour.

I'll have to work on adding to that list you made dkuo, probably can do it tomorrow after work before streaming a little bit.

 

[dkuo]

lol i know what you guys mean

usually i dont think i can be of much help when it comes to melee since i consider my understanding of the game to be pretty trivial, but when people ask questions about melee things i end up having too much stuff to say

...then i realize that my answer still isnt fully adequate and that theres way too much to melee to begin with anyways so i cant help it

 

[-Chad-]

lol i know what you guys mean

usually i dont think i can be of much help when it comes to melee since i consider my understanding of the game to be pretty trivial, but when people ask questions about melee things i end up having too much stuff to say

...then i realize that my answer still isnt fully adequate and that theres way too much to melee to begin with anyways so i cant help it

This is my stream in a nutshell

 

[ramenchu]

HAHAH it worked out so thanks guys. We needed some video tutorial for Pika

 

[GaIe]

Hello PikaPros!

I am an old Smasher who's been playing Smash ever since 99 but I've been away from the games for almost a decade. Of course there were occasions where I played a couple of matches with friends, but it was never consistent.
It wasn't until August last year where I truly opened up my eyes for this game again and saw how much hype this game still had. Then I started playing more seriously.

Ever since Super Smash Bros. for 64 came out I've been maining Pikachu in every game, so it was just natural for me to keep it that way and go with Pikachu again.
Since I was sort of lost and didn't know where I'd start I was looking up some vids on YouTube to get a grasp of how "good" Pikachu actually were and how you'd play Pikachu the best.

I watched "The AXE Effect".

I was stunned.

While being so impressed about what Pikachu was capable of I started learning from the techniques AXE used in the videos he featured in.
Thank you AXE for being this awesome with Pikachu! The way you are playing Pikachu is spurring me on to learn everything I can until I reach you guys' level :D
Anyway I am interested in what you guys think, so I will ask a couple of questions.

- What is the first thing you should master while practising for tournaments on a competitive level?

- What would you say is the most effective way of practise when you have no one to play with, against CPU(what level?) or just learning in Training Mode how to execute certain combos? Maybe both?

- What type of controller would you recommend? I heard some people are modding their own, like removing springs in their L- and R-buttons.

Note that I've been playing the game for a while, so I am familiar with all the basics and I have unlocked everything in the game and all that. This is moslty regarding the "Advanced Techniques". As far as that goes, I have already gotten a grasp about Wavedashing and L-canceling and short hops so it is just a matter of printing that into the head with more practise.

Yay, first post EVER on Smashboards

I will read up on as much as I can in this thread and watch more of you guy's videos to learn more.

Thank you in advance!

 

[dkuo]

first thing to master is your general tech. if you havent watched this already i recommend it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vckV2MJgBzo
you'll want to get all your tech down pat before you really start getting into the nitty gritty

extra things youll want to learn with pikachu: you'll want to have absolute upb control, and a very thorough understanding of his uair hitboxes

practicing by yourself: i suggest just becoming consistent with techskill. movement, shffling, etc
you can beat up a cpu, but only as a punching bag - taking the cpu as a real opponent will ingrain bad habits

get an official controller! whether its new or used, official controllers are much better than 3rd party controllers. modding the triggers can come later

btw you live in stockholm, which conveniently is one of the epicenters for swedish smash!
so luckily you'll have less trouble finding training partners than other swedish players

http://forum.smashbros.se/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/182402298476505/

 

[GaIe]

Thank you for the answer!

Luckily there seemed to be nothing of what you said that I haven't heard about before! So I'll just start with getting my techs right just as you said.

For now, I guess I'll stick to shffling like a madman since I see alot of Pika players using that as their usual approach, usually followed by a rising uair which I guess is for shield pressure and avoid getting shield grabbed, should they shield.
I've also been practising upB alot to make sure I can always hit the edge as long as I want to.
As for the CPU just being a punching bag I guess leaving it at level 1 would be enough, since they kinda get weird on level 6 and upwards?
I also got an official controller which I got when I got my GCN back in the day xD But it's control stick has had the rubber removed so I want to get a new one as I have a habit of pressing my thumb against the edges, and it hurts ><
SO if I buy a new one I will buy an official one.

I actually learned today that alot of smashers in Stockholm gather at the University during certain weekdays. I heard from a friend that it was worth the while, so I also should

Thanks again for clearing stuff up to me! You've been a great help

 

[N64]

dkuo covered pretty much all of it.

Movement is really important for pikachu. You can get a lot out of just running around the stage mixing up your movement options. When you're comfortable moving quickly, efficiently, and accurately for pikachu, you can properly set up combos. If you aren't comfortable moving around, you wont be able to approach easily and get things started, or escape easily and keep your stock.

Then just play people of considerable skill (this university gathering sounds great!) and get a feel for pikachu in a competative environment. Watching and trying to be like other pikas is a good guiding line, but developing your own style is fun! If you find you're having any difficulty in certain areas (i.e. "how do i fight fox?" "I can't figure out how to edgeguard mario" etc.), come ask us and/or watch any videos that could have the matchup/situation.

 

[GaIe]

Thanks!
I'll make sure to practise alot of movement and ultimately applying that to my play style

If you find you're having any difficulty in certain areas (i.e. "how do i fight fox?" "I can't figure out how to edgeguard mario" etc.), come ask us and/or watch any videos that could have the matchup/situation.

I will! Thanks alot, I'll write here again whenever I get stuck on something xD

 

[festizzio]

Wow Chad, I can't believe it took me this long to realize this, but is your avatar from Cave Story?

I actually do have a question about Pikachu too. What do I do against pill-happy Docs? I can't seem to do anything to those pills, and I know a certain part of nair goes through them, but I can't seem to time it right.

 

[N64]

festiiiiiizzio, it's been a while.

Doc pills are annoying. I tend to just cede space to pills. Nair caaan go through them as you said, but is unreliable. So, if it's worth the risk, i'll try that. Otherwise I kinda just let them be and dash away until i see a better opportunity to get around/through them or get to a better position. You can also try to ftilt them or i guess jolt them.

Again, i don't have a lot of advice for beating pills because i don't often try to beat them head on.

 

[festizzio]

I know! I finally have a job that leaves my weekends free so I decided to start up again. I'm okay when Doc is content to sit back and throw pills all day, but when they full hop a pill as an approach it makes it really difficult to do anything. They always follow with an aerial and I just have to run away and try to come in after the aerial. It gets pretty frustrating. :/ Also, is the pill one of those projectiles you can Pika-SWD through?

 

[ramenchu]

Speaking of annoying match-ups... I've always had trouble with Samus players. (My two Smash partners play Smaus and Icies... ) But yeah, Samus feels like a harder match up for me, just with the missile spam and the u-tilt edgeguard. What do you guys think?

 

[dkuo]

for me samus is pretty hard because her cc/tilt game is so strong...so its really hard to get in, and once you do its still hard to get anything started vs her
plus moving around samus' missile storm is another game in itself. thankfully pika mobility makes this easier than with most other chars

gimping samus is pretty ez and she dies off usmash pretty early. its just the initial game hurdle of getting through the tanky cc/tilt game that she has thats frustrating
if the samus isnt fazed by pika aggression and focuses on counterattacking/zoning id say the matchup is in her favor. not by a lot but enough to make it hard

 

[Cassio]

One thing about pika in smash games is that while he's wanting for range, he tends to have pretty good disjoints. If opponents try to play the "im just going to space moves against you" game, being fully aware of your disjoints and counter-attacking when they extend their hitbox to attack works pretty well. Doesnt help against aggressive styles or if they decide to sit back with projetiles though, but I've found most use with it against Samus and Peach or at least forced them to do more than just try to outrange me.

good writeup dkuo

is there anything in particular you could remember having difficulty with? Were you getting grabbed a lot? Did you feel like you couldn't approach solidly? Couldn't recover safely? Couldn't air-to-air her well? Always ended up above her? Didn't feel like you were optimally punishing her? etc. Sheik matchup can be tough, but pikachu definately has the tools to dish out some hurt on sheik if he can get things started.

Thanks for the help to you and Dkuo. I've been using your tips and its set me on the right path, I just need to play it more. The biggest issue I have is that anytime I would do something shieks moves would just beat it. Mainly air-to-air. Then id get frustrated and things would just go bad from there.

 

[ramenchu]

Yeah, the crouch cancel is pretty frustrating. What should I do when Samus is recovering with her bombs? I try Axe's quick attack edge guard (back and forth back to ledge). it only seems to work when I purposely blow up one of her bombs that way. What is the best option?

 

[N64]

Yeah, fighting sheik air-to-air is pretty risky, you're not really a character that can do it (few are). If she's going to the air, you want to look for opportunities to get under her (and threaten usmash), or wait until she has to land and approach then.

As for samus bomb recovery, just throw jolts. You may have to jump or even double jump to get the right angle for it, but jolts will wreck samus if she is just relying entirely on bombjump recovery. If the jolt hits samus, great, if it hits one of her bombs, even better. Just remember that throwing a jolt is laggy, so if the samus decides to airdodge->grapple to the ledge when she sees you start throwing out jolts you may not be as ready for it (but it's also possible if the airdodge isn't well spaced jolt will just hit her out of her airdodge). Usually after 1-2 jolts hit her offstage she'll double jump and try to get to the edge, at which point you either chase off with an aerial or ledgehog. Hope that helps.

 

[ramenchu]

Yeah I will try the jolts, seems safer. I'm just very impatient LOL thanks for the help N64. Samus is just hard in general for me, I guess

 

[festizzio]

I used to hate Sheik, but her aerial moves have considerable time when they're out (except fair) and have a small/weak hitbox. I like to run, wavedash in place, then run in again with a nair.

I'm SUPER excited to play this Sunday. I also noticed in training the other day that Pikachu can do a double SH uair or SH uair -> nair/bair. I could see this possibly doing something against a shield, but do you think it has a practical use? Or is it just something neat you can do, like wavelanding after a SH uair?

 

[knightpraetor]

rising full hop upair while retaining access to falling aerial options is pretty much pikachu's bread and butter. If you aren't doing it yet, you are missing out on basics and will most likely start doing a lot better once you implement it properly

 

[festizzio]

Thanks but I was referring to a short hop (SH) uair with another aerial's hitbox barely thrown out just before hitting the ground. You have just enough time to do one if you time it right, and I was wondering if there'd be any point to practicing it to get some sort of consistency.

 

[N64]

I don't think it's that useful, but i haven't played around with it much. The main reason fullhop uair is prefered is because a lot of characters do have options directly out of shield that can punish it. If you sh uair, i'm pretty sure you can get grabbed/usmashed (if you're in front). Safer if you're behind, yes, but I can't think of how it'd be better than full hop uair -> drop aerial. Slightly different timing i suppose. Maybe gimmicky good, but seems too unsafe for most situations. I dunno! try it out more, see what you learn.

 

[FourStar]

One thing about pika in smash games is that while he's wanting for range, he tends to have pretty good disjoints. If opponents try to play the "im just going to space moves against you" game, being fully aware of your disjoints and counter-attacking when they extend their hitbox to attack works pretty well. Doesnt help against aggressive styles or if they decide to sit back with projetiles though, but I've found most use with it against Samus and Peach or at least forced them to do more than just try to outrange me.

Thanks for the help to you and Dkuo. I've been using your tips and its set me on the right path, I just need to play it more. The biggest issue I have is that anytime I would do something shieks moves would just beat it. Mainly air-to-air. Then id get frustrated and things would just go bad from there.

Hey! I remember you from when i was on the Brawl Pika boards! You still play pika in brawl?

 

[dkuo]

@ festizzio

granted i dont do these kinds of shield aerial shenanigans very often, but (after crossups) i often favor the sh uair over fh uair
idk what to say about sh uair > last second aerial though but maybe it can work well as pressure? try it out. maybe last second aerials can shieldpoke since its so low (bair?)
(edit: i tried it a little and my conclusion is that its too timing intensive to be worth learning lol. although sh uair bair is a little easier than others)

main advantage of sh uair on the back of a shield is in the fact that you have a lower chance of being stuck high above the opponent (assuming they counterattack you to begin with)
especially vs juggling characters, ie marth/fox might uair oos your fh uair and juggle you around a bunch

on the other hand if you crossup a shield and do a rising sh uair, its pretty awkward to punish for many characters...and if they do end up punishing you its still less likely to be followed up on with a big combo since its in an awkward location. except with falco since he can follow up on everything forever

a smaller advantage of sh uair is that assuming you do hit the uair, you can ground yourself early and followup with more stuff, whereas if you hit the fh uair you're kind of limited to just another uair chain into nair/dair or something

remember though, fh uair is kind of a bait in itself since it makes people tend to jump lol. which opens up the followup falling nair and so on

yea iono. rising uair on shield is unsafe anyways so pick your poison i guess

 

[mynameisdog4]

http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/show/ugc

Pikachad vs M2K omg

 

[-Chad-]

Man I hope my games vs m2k were saved somewhere, I have studying to do.

 

[Cassio]

Hey! I remember you from when i was on the Brawl Pika boards! You still play pika in brawl?

Yup! Pika in each game so far. I moved to an easier region and now Im not really challenged in Brawl and not too challenged in 64/PM, so Im bringing my style to pika in melee. He has more or less the same gameplan in each game anyways.

 

[Clocked]

(First post what what)

I've been playing Pika for quite a bit now (Melee) but it feels like every time I get knocked away from my opponent, I never touch them that stock again. Approaching with my projectiles has helped a bit, but once they figure that out I'm doomed. Any tips on how to mix up my approaches?

 

[dkuo]

@ Clocked
approaching with pika is reaallly hard

hopefully the takeaway from this post is to remove the focus from "i should use a variety of approach mixups to land my first hits"
and place it on "i should maintain a good, safe position - and operate out of such a position - to land my first hits"
this is primarily because pika doesnt have very reliable active approach options - often easy to counter or just dont lead to that much reward. that aint falco
however this doesn't mean "dont approach" or the opponent wont respect your space at all. but remember, keeping a good position is your priority!
(this is imo btw. feel free to disagree)

Spoiler

first off, i wouldnt really use jolt in 2014 neutral unless the opponent shows an open vulnerability to jolt:
- running fh jolt can let you grab shields or hitstun, and tacking on % with jolt isnt bad but most players wont let themselves get hit by them
- if jolts get your opponent to jump or retreat to plats that would be amazing, but most players dont respect jolt that much (and rightfully so)

im assuming that running shffl nair is your default approach here (if not, then this part is completely pointless and i apologize lmao)
personally, once i establish that my nair can extend real far into the opponent's space they usually stick to one of three roads:
1. they stay real close to you and try to stuff your movement/nair game at the source
2. they stay even farther (out of nair range) and rely on whiff punish or zoning/poking (side note: if they retreat to platforms you can have a party with uairs)
3. they stay around nair range and try to beat you at your own nair mixup game (but it doesnt mean you have to play it tho)

when youre struggling with getting that nair in, you need to take into consideration what your opponent is doing that make it so hard to nair
once you understand their mindset you can find ways to work around it. what playstyle would work best, what reads to make, etc

***************
anyways, moving on to getting that first hit
as i said above, my go-to is counterattacking out of a defensive position of my own

virtually all of your game will be played out of dashdancing, so familiarize yourself with dashdancing and waiting for opportunities
almost all opponents will open up their defense a little when you yourself wait a bit
understand that pika has better ground mobility compared to a lot of characters and that you should abuse this as much as possible in such matchups
if you have trouble with your dashdance game, practice your ground movement. dashdance, wavedash, wavelands, crouch/shieldstops, etc
if you have trouble understanding dashdance, think of it as negotiating with your opponent for openings. its an offensive/defensive/positioning tool all in one

from there i can wait for a whiff, try to get a counterattack setup, or use a safe-ish run-in approach/poke

if a whiff punish opportunity comes up, my punish will depend on what the situation calls for
- grab: usually favorable, really good for bthrow gimps or uthrow combo setup
- dsmash: vs opponents at low% & those that are hard to punish off throws. reliable if i can cleanly whiff punish since its so fast, but hard to follow up on
- rising uair: facing away vs mid%, works real well oos
- usmash: vs high% for dat ko. if you play fox this should come naturally
- fsmash: good range. moreso for random factor imo. more of a hard read punish

approaching with shield works well. more proactive form of counterattacking but kind of weak vs strong pressure or attacks that are positive on block
- wdoos > punish is very powerful. id prioritize learning this since you can do it with a lot of characters, against almost everyone
- you can also uair/nair oos which is neat. sometimes approaching with turnaround shield gives you cool uair oos opportunities
- shieldgrab is a powerful tool but only if you can identify openings in unsafe attacks or something
- remember that shield loses to grab (seems obvious but easy to forget lol) plus small size = easy pokes

cc is also a good counterattack tool, can punish in certain situations and is a little matchup dependent
riskier, but punish options become a little more diverse thanks to the wider punishment window
remember that you arent exactly a tank so your cc wont be as good as some other characters

as for actually approaching
- running nair, of course. good space coverage, mixups on hit/shield, %, and followups. gets consumed by cc or good oos stuff, real easy to punish if predictable
- running dtilt/ftilt takes a lot of people by surprise, can invade space well. axe uses it to break up his dashdance pattern, often goes in with nair right after
- running dsmash approach sometimes works against campy cc'ers but leaves you pretty vulnerable if you whiff. moreso for random factor imo
- theres a few other goofy approach options, but a lot of them are hard reads and easily punished if the read is wrong

also for a lot of attacks out of run, make sure you do one of the following:
1. run past initial dash, and then crouch before attacking
2. wavedash before attacking
3. pivot. unless youre dkuo because youll mess up all of your pivots

ok holy moly i wrote a lot. ill stop here <_< funny thing is theres probably more to say but idk
if you need any clarification on jargon let me know

welcome to pika boards btw \o/

 

[Clocked]

So just to make sure I get what you're saying here, I should be holding my ground and waiting to see what my opponent does as opposed to trying to approach them straight up?

 

[dkuo]

uhh sort of
moreso that you shouldnt feel pressured to approach with too much urgency

you should still approach, but doing so on your own terms will let you play more comfortably
this is made easier when you know how to retain a position that is safe and easy to react out of, as well as when you understand your counterattack options

 

[FourStar]

Yup! Pika in each game so far. I moved to an easier region and now Im not really challenged in Brawl and not too challenged in 64/PM, so Im bringing my style to pika in melee. He has more or less the same gameplan in each game anyways.

Woah where do you live? Cuz if you live in Nor Cal that would be so awesome ^_^

 

[ramenchu]

What do you guys think about the Icies matchup? Is it better to just use a different character, or should I stick with Pika the whole way? Sorry if this was asked before!