Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!

[N64]

Silly soju. Back in my day it was a privaledge to be playing this game! We'd mash buttons till our thumbs were raw, just to get the entertainment. Had none of this "i'll only play if I'm good" nonsense. You got better because it was fun to be better.

Spoiled brats these days, the lot of you. *shakes cane* Now I remember a day when Pikachus used to only have 2 ATs... the A button and the B button... Now in those days we'd... in those days.... *zzzzzzzzzzz*

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Your avatar and post are so perfect XD

Those do sound like fun days, though. :o

 

[soju]

>~> It's tough practicing non-stop in your room alone though, I need to go find a fresher hipper person to go and convert to melee-ism, time to go find melee combo videos :D

And I hope you mean my boii Sparky, the true best >:3

 

[oukd]

psh it's not like those days are gone. at least half of us are terrible and still play this game for fun

 

[Spyro]

I might actually start to get to play with other people soon, yay, maybe I won't suck so much after I get to start playing with people. Playing in my room alone is not very fun . I'll try to get some stuff I can record with so I can get video critiques .

 

[DerfMidWest]

I understand what you mean Soju... I think...
its infuriating when you put a lot of time into this game and then still don't go anywhere.

 

[soju]

Well that too, I'm more annoyed in how much effort I put in this game only to end up in an area with no smashers and rising gas prices :/ Rise of 50 cents in the course of a month, FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[Spyro]

Well that too, I'm more annoyed in how much effort I put in this game only to end up in an area with no smashers and rising gas prices :/ Rise of 50 cents in the course of a month, FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

The closest smash to me is like 30 mins away, and gas companies are just going to raise gas prices during the summer cause people will be travailing a lot more :/.

 

[AXE 09]

Silly soju. Back in my day it was a privaledge to be playing this game! We'd mash buttons till our thumbs were raw, just to get the entertainment. Had none of this "i'll only play if I'm good" nonsense. You got better because it was fun to be better.

Spoiled brats these days, the lot of you. *shakes cane* Now I remember a day when Pikachus used to only have 2 ATs... the A button and the B button... Now in those days we'd... in those days.... *zzzzzzzzzzz*

Your avatar and post are so perfect XD

Those do sound like fun days, though. :o

Lol!!!! That's exactly what I was thinking XD

So guys.... I need your advice.

I have no Idea what to do against the IC's. I went to a tourney last Saturday and got demolished by the Wobbling master ;_; (He actually didn't even wobble me once, even though wobbling was allowed lol). I ended up not using Pikachu against him even once because I was terrified, and all of the friendlies I've played against him using the lil mouse didn't go very well. I know they're just friendlies but I was really trying in them and he still beats me almost every time. I ended up going pretty much all spacies.

But I wanna try something new. I'm not sure if my spacies are enough to get the job done.

So all you Pika mains..... what advice do you have for me to try against IC's?

Random note: I've found that I usually do better on stages that have a top platform.

 

[soju]

I think you already know what to do against IC's anyways at that level of play where basically best pikachu goes against the best IC's, it's basically a predicting your opponent battle. I'm fairly positive that there aren't any other ICs that are capable of dominating you, except Wobbles. I'd suggest this is where where you research the guy through videos or even better getting more friendlies in with him.

 

[N64]

I can't beat wobbles, too good, but I can tell you what I generally look for against ICs.

In this matchup i tend to use a lot of fsmash, jolts, dtilt, and bthrows. I like fsmash against ICs because he uses wavedashing for his movement a lot, and it will catch him wding in. If he shields it, it'll push him back far enough that he can't wd in and punish you either. Jolts are nice because ICs doesn't have a whole lot to easily get around them. I know this isn't in your aggressive pikachu style to jolt camp, but using it occasionally can help rack up a little bit of damage. Dtilt is on the same thoughtline as fsmash, a poke ICs has a little difficulty dealing with. Bthrow may seem weird in a matchup where being next to ICs for a grab is super scary, but if you see the opportunity for it it's pretty great. First off, if you get a grab and both ICs are next to eachother, you don't have many throw options. The other IC is likely going to dsmash or jab you or something, and this will interrupt uthrow or dthrow. Fthrow's hitbox can catch the other IC, but doesn't do much for your position. Bthrow, however, gets you out of range of the other IC, and splits the ICs up. You know how important splitting them up is in this matchup.

Otherwise just look for chances to split them up, and stay off the ground as much as possible. Gimping nana is usually fairly easy once they're seperated, and makes things a lot easier. Yeahhh, that's all I really do differently for this matchup.

 

[AXE 09]

I can't beat wobbles, too good, but I can tell you what I generally look for against ICs.

In this matchup i tend to use a lot of fsmash, jolts, dtilt, and bthrows. I like fsmash against ICs because he uses wavedashing for his movement a lot, and it will catch him wding in. If he shields it, it'll push him back far enough that he can't wd in and punish you either. Jolts are nice because ICs doesn't have a whole lot to easily get around them. I know this isn't in your aggressive pikachu style to jolt camp, but using it occasionally can help rack up a little bit of damage. Dtilt is on the same thoughtline as fsmash, a poke ICs has a little difficulty dealing with. Bthrow may seem weird in a matchup where being next to ICs for a grab is super scary, but if you see the opportunity for it it's pretty great. First off, if you get a grab and both ICs are next to eachother, you don't have many throw options. The other IC is likely going to dsmash or jab you or something, and this will interrupt uthrow or dthrow. Fthrow's hitbox can catch the other IC, but doesn't do much for your position. Bthrow, however, gets you out of range of the other IC, and splits the ICs up. You know how important splitting them up is in this matchup.

Otherwise just look for chances to split them up, and stay off the ground as much as possible. Gimping nana is usually fairly easy once they're seperated, and makes things a lot easier. Yeahhh, that's all I really do differently for this matchup.

Thank you so much man, I think I'm gonna give that Fsmash a try. That's something that I really don't use much against them and I haven't really though about.

About Bthrow though, it's amazing whenever I grab Popo but whenever I Bthrow Nana, he'll instantly just WD towards me and Dsmash before the lag of my Bthrow ends. He's really good at that. I feel like approaching with a grab would be amazing but I'm just so afraid of throwing Nana instead of Popo cuz he punishes me pretty much every time.

Ok so use more jolts... *takes notes* I'm not sure what to do once he starts spamming ice blocks though. They eat up my jolts

 

[Taj278]

Aerial through ice blocks, and time your approaches against Popo's blocks. (Nana's blocks still leave Popo with more control)

 

[oukd]

I had Chudat in bracket at a tourney from a few weeks ago where I went all Pika, so I asked him for advice in the matchup after getting 2-0'd by him all he said was that I had to camp the edge and uair him off the side from there since ICs was so good at covering Pika's options.

Yeah, it seems a bit lame to do that but it makes sense...I'm sure Pika has approach options though. You want to constantly be aware of wd approaches and cover accordingly if you decide to do a spacing battle. I found that dair works wonders in tricky situations but only as a mixup, something I want to explore more. Shffl dair can cover wd/jump very well.

Honestly, that's all I can say from playing him. I got 3 and 4-stocked over and over during friendlies. Once I have time to drive I'm going to try smashing with him as much as possible since he's only 20 mins away from me...then imma datadump everything I learn in this thread.

Here's some untested grabbing theorybros and I have no idea if any of it works, just trying to be creative:

• Grabbing is generally bad since there's a 50/50 chance that you grab nana and popo will punish you. Pummel can mess up attempts to do so but dsmash can probably break through.
• If you do grab, wait until they're isolated so you can go for popo specifically, or nana for a bthrow > jolt KO. On that note, don't try to do fancy edgeguarding against nana since she won't side+B recover on her own. Snipe with a jolt and keep popo at bay.
• If you end up grabbing them when they're together, fthrow to stun the other IC character so you don't get dsmashed (probably bad since there's not enough stun to prevent a punish).
• If you bthrow at low %'s and expect the wd dsmash, try to sdi into a ground tech and punish. (Maybe with another grab now that they're separated!)

EDIT: If you're trying to jolt, FH jolts might be able to go over ice blocks. Jolting low plats can be helpful. If you get ICs to rely on their blocks more with your jolt, it may open up more opportunities for approach since you can nair through blocks pretty easily. /theorybros

 

[DerfMidWest]

I like to downsmash ICs.

...


:D

 

[indigestible_wad]

Downsmash is more useful than upsmash is when you're on the ground. You typically are going to need to split them up more often than you are going to need a kill move. It also gives you a nice long timeframe of hitboxes. I know that you like upsmash after the sh nair, but it would be more useful in this matchup if you followed up with downsmash. Uair is still a good followup. Obviously you should be aware of how often you approach with nair.

 

[AXE 09]

Dkuo, I really like what you said about bthrow -> jolt to kill Nana. I never even thought of that lol. I'm gonna try that. I'm imagining that if you bthrow and full jump reverse jolt immediately, it'll hit her right as she uses her double jump and she'll just fall.

I usually go for the tailspike on nana after I bthrow, but sometimes I gotta wait on stage for a while (waiting for her double jump), and that leaves me kinda vulnerable if popo is still on stage and sometimes I end up missing the tailspike. Still works pretty well but sometimes it doesn't work, and I would like another alternative.

I'll just try the jolt and see if it works lol.

I had to play Wobbles again in tourney yesterday and I lost 3 - 1. I only went Pika once on Dreamland and it went to the last stock so I did a lot better than I thought I would, but he still had an edge on me. He has such good control the moment he lands a grab on Pika.

After the set though he was giving me a lot of pointers and tips against IC's with Pika in preparation for fighting Fly (who I didn't end up having to play), and I actually think I learned a lot from him. He's so freakin smart lol. I accept that he's a better player than me. But I'm still gonna practice hard and try to get good at the matchup.



EDIT:

Oh and Dkuo, preparing for an ASDI tech is a good idea after you Bthrow nana
But unfortunately you won't be able to counter attack if you do =( unless you're at like 0 - 10% where you can tech in place and not slide too far, then you just might be able to counter with a dash JC grab. But otherwise you just slide too far when you tech in place, and if you tech roll then his Dsmash lag ends before your rolling animation ends.

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

I'm sorry if I'm a little random, but I have some input on your problem. Note, I am a brawl player who plays pikachu, but regardless, ICs and Pikachu are basically the same with some factors.

The two things vs. ICs is to
A) Not get grabbed
B) Get rid of Nana

- Not getting grabbed
Now, you probably looked at my post and said, "wtf is this Japanese brawl player doing in a melee English forum", but I notice the similarity between MUs of both games. When I vs. ICs, the number one thing I think about is to not get grabbed. Easier said than done. Spacing is key to this, which I probably think everyone knows already. Try to find what aerials, probably UPair, Nair, or Fair are used best to keep your opponent away and if he's dumb, then you get a free pass to "I can punish you" town. and maybe be able to separate them.

- Getting rid of Nana
The other thing you need to focus on. The thing you want is something fast and speedy to hit her. If you can separate them, Nana goes into a CPU state in which she's stupid and runs into everything. Do anything to separate them.

Sorry for the strangeness. I just love see your pika, AXE. The way it moves and such makes me think to the days where I looked up to Anther when he still played. Thank you.

 

[strawhats]

Wait...fly was in AZ? Also u got this axe, whenever you do play him.

 

[oukd]

Whoa a Japanese smasher!

Oh and Dkuo, preparing for an ASDI tech is a good idea after you Bthrow nana
But unfortunately you won't be able to counter attack if you do =( unless you're at like 0 - 10% where you can tech in place and not slide too far, then you just might be able to counter with a dash JC grab. But otherwise you just slide too far when you tech in place, and if you tech roll then his Dsmash lag ends before your rolling animation ends.

I was wondering if the sliding would make it difficult...techroll wouldn't be an option I suppose. Although, if you do slide, wouldn't you end up closer to nana that way since you just bthrow'd her in the direction you were dsmashed? You could try to go after her instead now that they're separated...idk, maybe you'd still be too far even for that...

Btw, what was the advice that wobbles gave you?

 

[Taj278]

Wait...fly was in AZ? Also u got this axe, whenever you do play him.

They were in Socal for a tournament.

 

[Dessy]

They were in Socal for a tournament.

Do you do a lot more Mewtwo these days, or do you still lean toward Marth a good bit? (Unless I have you confused for someone else? ;o)
I haven't really been keeping up with people, and I'm new in all respects anyway.

 

[AXE 09]

I'm sorry if I'm a little random, but I have some input on your problem. Note, I am a brawl player who plays pikachu, but regardless, ICs and Pikachu are basically the same with some factors.

The two things vs. ICs is to
A) Not get grabbed
B) Get rid of Nana

- Not getting grabbed
Now, you probably looked at my post and said, "wtf is this Japanese brawl player doing in a melee English forum", but I notice the similarity between MUs of both games. When I vs. ICs, the number one thing I think about is to not get grabbed. Easier said than done. Spacing is key to this, which I probably think everyone knows already. Try to find what aerials, probably UPair, Nair, or Fair are used best to keep your opponent away and if he's dumb, then you get a free pass to "I can punish you" town. and maybe be able to separate them.

- Getting rid of Nana
The other thing you need to focus on. The thing you want is something fast and speedy to hit her. If you can separate them, Nana goes into a CPU state in which she's stupid and runs into everything. Do anything to separate them.

Sorry for the strangeness. I just love see your pika, AXE. The way it moves and such makes me think to the days where I looked up to Anther when he still played. Thank you.

I got a compliment!!!! =D Thank you man

I agree that if you ever have the opportunity to get rid of Nana, go for it, even if Popo gets a free punish. There's not too much he can do to you alone, so I'll usually go straight for the kill on Nana even if it puts me in a horrible position because I know the punish won't be all that bad (unless you're at a very high % where a smash attack will kill you, then don't go for it unless you are ahead in stocks imo).

Spacing though... It's extremely hard to space moves with Pikachu against IC's. With Fair, they can just CC grab it. It's a lot better in brawl because he can SH auto cancel a Fair, but in Melee he has to L cancel it if he short hops, which they can just CC grab. With Nair, I know you have to be careful to start it kinda late, because if you start it early, you'll hit both shields very early which provides enough stun for Popo to just grab you out of the air in the middle of your Nair.

I feel like really the only "safe" spacing move is your Dtilt, but you really can't do anything against IC's out of it because you'll be at risk of getting grabbed =( Sometimes I just poke with spaced WD dtilts which is good, but... it isn't enough to win the matches lol.

Dsmash is soooooooo good but only if they do not shield it. That's the scariest thing about using Dsmash against them. But it's a very good reward if you land it. I see this as a high risk high reward kind of thing

Whoa a Japanese smasher!



I was wondering if the sliding would make it difficult...techroll wouldn't be an option I suppose. Although, if you do slide, wouldn't you end up closer to nana that way since you just bthrow'd her in the direction you were dsmashed? You could try to go after her instead now that they're separated...idk, maybe you'd still be too far even for that...

Btw, what was the advice that wobbles gave you?

Well assuming you were to bthrow Nana somewhere in the middle of the stage, when Popo WD Dsmashes and you tech it, I would imagine that you end up sliding a bit past nana if you're at a very low %. Popo won't be all that far away from her, but they will be desynced. You could maybe like full jump or SH Uair (4th hit) to fling her behind you and try to get a gimp that way, but I know that this wouldn't work if you're above like 10% cuz you'll slide too far. After like 15 or 20%, you'll probably slide far enough to where it'll make you grab the edge. And if you're at like 75+ percent and you try to tech in place, you'll end up flying off the map after your tech and will most likely die, so you're forced to tech roll so you won't go flying off. If you're confident, I think the tech roll is better than just normal survival DI at this point because if you only DI it, you'll end up offstage and in position for an edgeguard, whereas with a tech roll you'll end up grabbing the edge which is much better.

Also the biggest problem is that after you Bthrow Nana, assuming you're at a very low %, Popo can just WD grab instead of Dsmash. At which point he can just solo chaingrab until Nana syncs up with him again.

 

[oukd]

Oh okay that makes sense, esp with the techroll survival info. I'll keep it in mind.

In my mind using buffer spotdodge could work against popo's grab after throwing nana, since popo can't grab you when you're in throwing animation so if he tries to grab you right out of your throw you're spotdodging it already. Then if he tries to dsmash you can do the tech input right after the buffer input...since spotdodge and asdi tech overlap in trigger use (if you do it right) you can do the input for both asdi tech and buffer spotdodge to cover both grab/dsmash...I think? I'm basically trying to turn this into an option select against solo climber's hardest getup punishes.

I wish I had someone I could test this with right now <_<

 

[AXE 09]

^Good point. There IS a window where he can grab you right after you throw Nana, but it's not like mega huge but it isn't small enough to where it's too hard for Popo to go for. But yeah if you don't get hit by the dsmash and you're trying to asdi down and tech, you'll buffer a spot dodge which is good =)

 

[oukd]

aw damn okay. so essentially grabbing nana guarantees a grab or dsmash by popo...wtf ics T_T

 

[Captain Smuckers]

Hey guys, I haven't been on the boards in quite a while and I wish I had some useful input for icies but I can't say I do. However, I went to a local (nojohns) yesterday which was my first tourney since rom4 and I think I really need to decide whether to main pika or falco. I've been considering myself a falco main for like a year now, but I feel like my pika is more impressive. There are a hell of a lot of falcos that are way better than mine, so I think I stand out far more as a pika, in fact several people yesterday actually told me to main pika. Not to mention that hardly anyone knows how to fight pika. On the other hand, falco is obviously just a way better character, I absolutely need to work harder to win with pika. Something that I thought was strange though was that I played a peach in bracket and got pretty wrecked the first game as falco and on yoshi's story no less. Then I figured oh what the hell I'll try pika and won game 2. I ended up losing in game 3 anyway which I'm not surprised at seeing as I suck against peach, but I wasn't entirely sure what to make of the fact that I did better with pika, especially against peach. So what I'm asking you guys, my pika bros, is what you think I should do in terms of who I main. I kind of expect you to all say pika since it's the pika board, but hell I dunno what to do. Any thoughts?

 

[oukd]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you.

My Falco's definitely my main, but my Pika has been slowly catching up since I started focusing on him more...a lot of the times I feel like people just tend to fall for Pika tricks and I just get away with jank, but at other times I feel like I'm playing a legitimately solid game with Pika. I want to be playing like how I described in the latter. I think I can perform much better as a player if I just focus on pure Pika.

Problem is, Falco's too fun to just drop. Both characters are, actually. I don't think I'll ever decide on who to focus on but I'm okay with that personally. I'd much rather have more than one solid character even if it means doing a little worse overall (additionally I think the whole 'focus on one character only' ideology is totally bogus but that's aside from the point)

If you have to decide though, I'd suggest for you to gauge off of how much fun you have with each character and how successful you are with each character. Don't look at them apart from yourself as just 'characters,' you can't separate them from yourself as a player...otherwise my suggestion would be useless since I'd like to see more Pikas just as much as I'd like to see more Falcos.

On a side note...wish I went to NoJohns...then there would've been 2 pika players there lol.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Sup Pika bros. I've been cruising the Falcon boards because my friends don't like losing to a Pikachu -__- and Falcon's swag swallowed me in. No doubt, I love watching my fellow Pika's ****** top level spacies.

 

[Spyro]

Your friends are just silly iRobinhoood.

 

[N64]

Play who you're more comfortable with C.Smuckers. It's also perfectly fine to just play both chars and figure out which you like better for certain matchups.

Falco generally has better matchups and more viable options in most situations, but as Axe has shown (and successful low tier mains in general) Pikachu and other low tiers are still viable at the highest levels of play. You can win with any char, it's just a matter of figuring out which works best for you.

I think any choice is correct, as long as you're confident in it and stick to it. You have to decide though. Falco, Pikachu, or Both.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Yo irobbin the blu planet long island tourney was moved to this up coming Saturday

 

[AXE 09]

You don't have to pick only 1 to main, you could play both. And the joy with that is if you're off one day with Pika for example, you still have Falco to fall back on, and vise versa. I know I have my days where my Pika just isn't doing well, but luckily I still have Falco when that happens (unfortunately my Falco isn't quite as good as my Pikachu but it's not that far behind).

I vote for you continuing to play both characters, and if one of them gets better than the other naturally then well it happens lol. But for now you have the option of saying you have 2 mains.

 

[Spyro]

I'll probable end up maining Fox too for Sheik, she own Pikachu so hard -_-

*EDIT*: It's not a bad idea to have a second main or secondary to cover some of your bad match-ups or like Axe said, you would have another character to fall back on if you were having an off day with your Pikachu or the over way around. Just go with whatever you feel comfortable with Captain Smuckers and Dkuo.

 

[Pogogo]

Hi Pikas

My question is about falcon's up throw. At what percent is the fair guarenteed and what di should I do to make this difficult or raise this percent? This is how I die a lot vs falcon.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Yo irobbin the blu planet long island tourney was moved to this up coming Saturday

Link me to the thread or post more details. Time, Date, Location etc. I'll be in Queens on Saturday picking up an order for an aquarium. I'll stop by maybe

Hi Pikas

My question is about falcon's up throw. At what percent is the fair guarenteed and what di should I do to make this difficult or raise this percent? This is how I die a lot vs falcon.

I tell most people I face to DI down and away for most of my throws to avoid chain grabs. I'm sure its the same for avoiding the knee.

 

[N64]

I'm pretty sure if you DI down and away, and he dthrows you, the knee is only guaranteed if you're near the edge of the stage, and even then only at some percentages (probably around 80%+). Otherwise, you can tech before he can reach you with knee. Of course, he can still techchase knee you, but it's not guaranteed.

 

[Pogogo]

That is very helpful thank you. Waht about upthrow at high percent. Is it the same?

edit: I don't know anything about falcon. Should I just jump cause I don't think its a combo? Do you have a DI section in your guide N64. You should add that to the matchups section. For example shieks downthrow

 

[iRobinhoood]

Don't get grabbed by Sheik, it's the only way.

 

[DerfMidWest]

having a secondary is fine, but I don't advise dual maining...
it makes it harder for you to get better quickly if you don't really focus on your character.