Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Ultimate kaos]

So, how good is Marth's dtilt? I do t. Find my self using much but I'm still getting into marth.

 

[C.J.]

Marth's dtilt is gdlk.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Well... At least we have the guide for Snake's: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314417

Now that's what I'm talking about! This helped me understand the match-up alot better.

Slightly dated but still valid: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

I remember going over this a long time ago, and some of the tips are just general advice, not really how to counter/play the match.
(For example how it explains the DK match up.)

And although it has links to each discussion, it's hard to find the time and nitpick through every post to try and find something useful that isn't just arguing over semantics.

I've always enjoyed the Toon Link and Snake match-ups for Marth.

I'm not too proficient on IC's and DK, but if I have some spare time I'll sum up my opinion on the Toon Link MU tomorrow.

Thanks, Toon Link is probs the one I need the most. I get caught in his frame traps (Ex: Back air strings), and excessive camp game. He likes to jump around me and abuse his aerial mobility.

If you can do what you initially intended to do and also add some tips to what I just said that would help a bunch.

 

[C.J.]

Way too lazy to do another guide for Tink. If you tell me what specifically in the MU you're having issue w/ I can help. Or post vids in the thread I'm about to make.

Otherwise watch these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_oc_ZtvR7A&playnext=1&list=PL625E0B13DF5D74BC&feature=results_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_78XmpiPM

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

What do I do when I'm shielding and he crosses me up? He mixes up from grabs to attacks, he also sometimes spot dodges so he comes up faster if I spot dodge. His keep away game is really good. He knows what to do with the bombs, arrows, and boomerang placement. At high percents he can get the kill pri easily, he basically waits for the hit by camping me until I screw up. He also is great at keeping me on the ledge by covering my options.

 

[Ken Neth]

Seph, Ds4's (or toon link's in general) camping may seem unapproachable, but it definitely has openings. He's going to camp you as much as he can cause he's gay like that lol. What you need to do is look for those openings.

I've never gone marth on him in a serious match so maybe i cant give you the best punishing options, but i can give you some examples. One example is when he's in the air above you, if you jump up, he's going to z drop a bomb. Time an uair to catch the bomb, and if he doesn't air dodge you'll hit him. Or if he does, you'll have a frame trap and you can hit him in the lag. That won't work in every situation depending on spacing, but learn to judge when to go for it and when to back off.

Also, don't sit in your shield vs him. TL's grab is terrible so he's only going to go for it if he knows you're going to sit in your shield. (I don't think he's ever even attempted a grab against me for this reason.) You need to learn to PS his projectiles, otherwise you'll have a very hard time punishing the small openings and then you won't be caught sitting in your shield. At low percents however, watch out for him trying to get a back air string, if he's close enough for that that's the only time I'd think it would be okay to sit in your shield a little and react to what he does.

Uair and usmash are his only reliable kill moves, and bombs lead into them. So just play safe enough to avoid getting hit by a bomb or those while still trying to poke his openings.

Watch out for his z-airs as he's landing, don't let it catch you off guard.

Those are a few, I can't really give you marth specific advice against him, but hopefully that will help a little. Also, am I the snake and DK you want advice for? Lol

 

[NH Cody]

Way too lazy to do another guide for Tink. If you tell me what specifically in the MU you're having issue w/ I can help. Or post vids in the thread I'm about to make.

Otherwise watch these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_oc_ZtvR7A&playnext=1&list=PL625E0B13DF5D74BC&feature=results_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_78XmpiPM

mikehaze vs jerm, roy r vs jerm, and nike vs jerm are good vids to watch, too.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Spoiler

Seph, Ds4's (or toon link's in general) camping may seem unapproachable, but it definitely has openings. He's going to camp you as much as he can cause he's gay like that lol. What you need to do is look for those openings.

I've never gone marth on him in a serious match so maybe i cant give you the best punishing options, but i can give you some examples. One example is when he's in the air above you, if you jump up, he's going to z drop a bomb. Time an uair to catch the bomb, and if he doesn't air dodge you'll hit him. Or if he does, you'll have a frame trap and you can hit him in the lag. That won't work in every situation depending on spacing, but learn to judge when to go for it and when to back off.

Also, don't sit in your shield vs him. TL's grab is terrible so he's only going to go for it if he knows you're going to sit in your shield. (I don't think he's ever even attempted a grab against me for this reason.) You need to learn to PS his projectiles, otherwise you'll have a very hard time punishing the small openings and then you won't be caught sitting in your shield. At low percents however, watch out for him trying to get a back air string, if he's close enough for that that's the only time I'd think it would be okay to sit in your shield a little and react to what he does.

Uair and usmash are his only reliable kill moves, and bombs lead into them. So just play safe enough to avoid getting hit by a bomb or those while still trying to poke his openings.

Watch out for his z-airs as he's landing, don't let it catch you off guard.

Those are a few, I can't really give you marth specific advice against him, but hopefully that will help a little. Also, am I the snake and DK you want advice for? Lol

I'll keep that advice in mind. I guess it's harder to see the openings in the camp game. I know you can Fair the projectiles, but usually when I do that he follows it up.

As for the DK and Snake.

no and yes.

I just need basic match up knowledge, and what to do in certain situations. Final recently picked up DK, and I really didn't know what to do against him. I mean I beat him barely but that's not good enough. I rarely play you in tourney, but when I do I'll need to know this stuff.

As for the Snake, yeah you and Samson are basically the ones I need to worry about. DS4 likes to annoy me and play snake against me where I sometimes lose, so if he decides to do that in tourney again I'll be able to use what I know against him.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Anybody got the link to that Neo vs Logic (Marth vs Olimar) video? It was part of a recorded stream and it's probably two years old now...

 

[Zion]

Is there any move that marth has that can beat mks fair?

 

[C.J.]

Fair, Nair, ftilt, counter, dolphin slash, Bair

 

[Pierce7d]

Metaknight's Fair is not safe on block. If done rising, you can punish with an aerial. If done into the ground, you can punish with Dancing Blade (or Dsmash, depending). Your Fair has superior range, however due to hitbox duration, it can be difficult to beat/trade with the Fair.

 

[Shaya]

If you try to aim with the last frames of fair it's a lot easier to beat MK's fair arc (if he remains in the air). However, this requires you to full hop / be at around those heights, so you need to have very concise reaction time/execution lest you get gazonked (like, baiting you and ff air dodging/SL [if he reads it], or jump rdair, tornado, scoop loop, etc [too slow]).

In other words, it's easier to space it at that height, but you need to already be there / be aiming to hit MK, not punishing it on reaction (you can if you're at that right height).

 

[Aaven]

Is there any move that marth has that can beat mks fair?

I don't find it too difficult to outreach or beat out MK's Fair, as stated above me Marth has plenty of aerials that beat out Fair if timed properly.

Personally I prefer a full hop into the last frames of Marth's Fair, however if you don't mix it up or keep your style fresh you'll be baited into shuttle loop or another maneuver by MK that can quickly put you in a tough spot that will either cause you to take a hefty amount of percentage, lose stage control or even get gimped depending on your percentage when you are punished. Knowing when to battle MK's Fair head-on and when to play it safe is key.

 

[reslived]

hello. just got finished reading through the frame trap topic. Some of these guides are absolutely amazing and I wanna thank CJ + others for keeping marth mains informed... other character forums just dont have helpful stuff like that.

I was wondering if marth has a CG thread similar to the frame trap thread. or CG + grab release thread. like a current one. I know there exists a CG thread but its out-of-date + includes lots of "not yet tested" CG. i also can't find it... i really need to use bookmarks .

 

[Spanky-Joe]

Hi, I have been using Marth as a main for a while now and I'm pretty good, I still don't know most of Marth's advanced strategies though, can I get some pointers on how to up my game with him? I appreciate it, thanks.

 

[ScareMl]

Hi, I have been using Marth as a main for a while now and I'm pretty good, I still don't know most of Marth's advanced strategies though, can I get some pointers on how to up my game with him? I appreciate it, thanks.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=315099

 

[Pr0phetic]

hello. just got finished reading through the frame trap topic. Some of these guides are absolutely amazing and I wanna thank CJ + others for keeping marth mains informed... other character forums just dont have helpful stuff like that.

I was wondering if marth has a CG thread similar to the frame trap thread. or CG + grab release thread. like a current one. I know there exists a CG thread but its out-of-date + includes lots of "not yet tested" CG. i also can't find it... i really need to use bookmarks .

Being there are few real CGs or GRs, I don't think there's a thread separate from the combo thread by takeurlife2 (which is still very much valid!).

 

[1PokeMastr]

Metaknight's Fair is not safe on block. If done rising, you can punish with an aerial. If done into the ground, you can punish with Dancing Blade (or Dsmash, depending). Your Fair has superior range, however due to hitbox duration, it can be difficult to beat/trade with the Fair.

Metaknight's Fair is only -9 on block.

Fair Oos is 10 frames.
Dsmash Oos is 13.
Dancing Blade is 11 frames.

He can block all of them.
Also, in the instance of human reaction time vs Mk buffering a D-Tilt, Mk will more than likely beat out those options (He'd legit beat out Dsmash Oos).

Still.. we have Dolphin Slash. :3

 

[smashkng]

-9 is if perfectly landed. Most of the time it's not perfectly done so the advantage is more like -12 or -13.

 

[1PokeMastr]

If only it was -17.

Then Dk could Dsmash Oos T~T

 

[Shaya]

Power shield it and DK can dsmash oos in 9 frames.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fair OOS does not take 10 frames lol
Unless you mean walk>Fair

 

[1PokeMastr]

Power shield it and DK can dsmash oos in 9 frames.

I'm confused because his Dsmash hits on frame 10.


And to do an aerial Oos, your character must go through jump squat animation.

Jump squat for Marth is 5 frames, he's in the air on frame 6.
Fair takes 4 frames for the first hitbox to come out.

Frame 6 + 4 = 10.

Jumping isn't instant.

 

[Shaya]

Also, frame 1 of fair comes out on frame 6 (i.e. the first frame you're in the air), so it comes out in 9 frames.

Oops on DK dsmash being 10 not 9 frames.

 

[light-zion]

What is an appropriate way to deal with mks ftilt, dtilt, dash attack and his nair.

 

[NH Cody]

dash attack is easy to punish when you predict it. You could shield > DB, shieldgrab, shield > DS at high %s, pivot grab it, or nair it.

tilts are harder to punish on the ground but if you SH and observe a whiff, you can fair it. If you predict a nair OOS you can shield it and run > DB (or even usmash if you PSC)

 

[smashkng]

You can Dtilt MK back if he dtilts and barely misses you. His Dtilt outranges ours, but it's good to know that he extends his hurtbox during Dtilt. You can shield dash and Up b OoS Dtilt (maybe side b too if you're close enough). His Dtilt has close to no shield push and is -11 on shield. You can space barely away of Dtilt and run and DB during the ending lag (it has 11 frames ending lag, about 14 if he goes for another Dtilt). MK's Ftilt 3 has lots of ending lag along with close to no shield push, so you can Fsmash, DB, Fair, Dash grab or Dsmash OoS that. The first and 2nd tilt are also unsafe on block. Also our Neutral B outranges both of MK's tilts (along with almost everything else MK has), so you can use it as a spacing tool against MKs who are too comfortable with their zoning.

 

[NH Cody]

video example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4eWIyGnlrA at 1:00

 

[Sar]

Question about Marth's grab game against Falco and Snake.

Are there any grab shenanigans against these two? Grab releases/chaingrabs? I feel like i've heard that f throw > f throw > dthrow > fsmash is guaranteed on low% falco?

And maybe a better question, should i be using grabs in these matchups?

 

[Nicholas1024]

I'm not entirely sure on Falco, but I think you can get a couple more D-throw's if you start the CG at 0%. As far as Snake goes, Marth doesn't get too much, I think F-throw to F-smash or DB is as good as it gets.

However, grabs are still very important even when you don't have guaranteed followups, simply because without the threat of a grab, shield is ridiculously overpowered. Additionally, Marth's grab game sets up into juggles, tech chases, or ledge traps depending on stage position, which means his throws are pretty solid despite low damage. (Just never use back throw, down throw is better in every way.)

 

[light-zion]

observe a whiff

Thanks Quest and Smashking.

What is a "Whiff"?

 

[NH Cody]

when your opponent uses a move but it doesn't hit you

 

[Pr0phetic]

Question about Marth's grab game against Falco and Snake.

Are there any grab shenanigans against these two? Grab releases/chaingrabs? I feel like i've heard that f throw > f throw > dthrow > fsmash is guaranteed on low% falco?

And maybe a better question, should i be using grabs in these matchups?

Snake just has Fthrow --> Stutter Stepped Fsmash really.

Falco: Fthrow x2, Dthrow x3 --> Fsmash

 

[ScareMl]

Question about Marth's grab game against Falco and Snake.

Are there any grab shenanigans against these two? Grab releases/chaingrabs? I feel like i've heard that f throw > f throw > dthrow > fsmash is guaranteed on low% falco?

And maybe a better question, should i be using grabs in these matchups?

Prophetic's answer wasn't complete. Adding on to what he said, you can do f-throwx2 -> dair near the ledge against both characters, although I don't think it's guaranteed on snake. Guaranteed spike for falco though, and with his terrible recovery, it's an easy gimp. As for grab releases:

(only works if they mash jump while you're grabbing them)

Falco- gr release -> dancing blade

Snake- gr release -> dash, wait for jump, fair.
(this one isn't guaranteed, but 9 times out of 10, the snake will panic when you grab release him and jump right into your fair. If he doesn't jump, your fair won't connect, but if he's offstage, now he's in a terrible position and you have like 10 other options to edgeguard him. So in other words, use this one situationally.

 

[1PokeMastr]

The air release isn't guaranteed on either of them.

But if you manage to air release Falco and he'll go off the ledge from it, you can get a tipper Dash attack.

 

[C.J.]

Question about Marth's grab game against Falco and Snake.

Are there any grab shenanigans against these two? Grab releases/chaingrabs? I feel like i've heard that f throw > f throw > dthrow > fsmash is guaranteed on low% falco?

And maybe a better question, should i be using grabs in these matchups?

Disclaimer: Probably repeated information but w/e I didn't read any of the above.

Vs Snake at 0%:
Fthrow-> stutterstep fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> stutterstep fsmash
(both require 1-2 frame stuttersteps, any longer and they can PS)
Fthrow-> DB
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> DB
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> Fthrow-> DB
Fthrow-> aerial
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> aerial
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> Fthrow-> aerial
Fthrow-> walk forward dtilt
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> walk forward dtilt
Fthrow-> dair
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dair (frame perfect- it's really awkward)

Vs Falco at 0%
Fthrow-> dair
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dair
Fthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
Fthrow-> Fthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash
dthrow-> fthrow-> fsmash
dthrow-> fthrow-> dair (someone double check this one please? I can never remember if this one is guaranteed- it might only be if fthrow is already staled once.)
(you get the idea)

vs Falco up to 7%:
dthrow-> dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash

vs Falco up to 10%:
dthrow-> dthrow-> fsmash

vs Falco up to 14%:
dthrow-> fsmash

vs Falco at 0%:
FF tipper uair-> wait a moment-> grab-> dthrow-> fsmash

If you DS out of his CG because he messed up, that puts him at 13% which lets you dthrow-> fsmash

Tipper fair does 13% which lets you dthrow-> fsmash

Non-tipper DB stuff does <=13% which lets you dthrow-> fsmash


Vs both Snake and Falco:
Both of them are too tall to force an air release. If they do mash jump however:
DB on both
DA on both (if Falco is released offstage)
Fair on Snake (maayybbeeee on Falco too. I don't typically use it)
Probably nair on Snake
If it works on Falco, it also works on Diddy Kong (yay more information!)

Marth's grab game is absurd in almost every MU, especially Snake. Shield is the strongest option in the game and grab beats shield. You have good frame advantage vs the cast out of throws so you can apply pressure and create traps very easily out of grabs. You can also set up for juggles/platform pressure easily. DI required to avoid follow-ups for dthrow and fthrow are exact opposite so you can get super hard punishes off of mixing the two up. Throwing them towards the ledge creates ledge traps. I can't stress how good uthrow actually is and how much I hate everyone for not using it more.

Quest, come write stuff about conditioning w/ throws since that's something right up your alley/we talked about it at Apex some/I'm lazy


Idk, I probably missed something.

Also, I swear I've written this up a hundred times. Someone bookmark this or something so it can just be linked to.

 

[NH Cody]

oh, well, uthrow is probably more beneficial to use as a setup for juggles early on rather than a threat as a kill move at super high %s. reasons:

1. it's unlikely you'll get your opponent that high before killing
2. uthrow won't kill certain characters anyway (snake/DK/D3)
3. changing the momentum in your favor might even snag you massive damage and a kill right then and there, before your opponent gets more damage on you

fthrow on snake at mid %s guarantees no real follow-ups, and the snake might even punish you for trying to follow up...uthrow would be better so you can juggle

is this what you meant lol

 

[Ayce God]

Ive killed dk with uthrow before at %s over 200. usually...when you get a grab at those percents they're diing toward the stage bc they think you're going to fthrow. throwing them up even at percents that wouldn't kill them usually with good di, would kill them in these situations bc they're diing the wrong way.

 

[smashkng]

Don't we get GR spike too if Falco air breaks?