As the game develops, do you still see Greninja as a strong character?

[Jahordon]

Many people are calling Greninja a great character, but I wonder how his viability will develop as the game does. ZSS and Yoshi are successful now, but many believe they will become much worse as people learn to play against them. Others believe that characters like Rosalina will only get better as they are better understood.

Do you think Greninja is going to be a growing character, or will he plateau early and start to fall off?

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

I think he will stay good. He has his Hydro Pump, Shruiken, he is fast. Shadow Sneak might become a bit easy to see and perdict and the counter already sucks. He will most likely be considered good or very good.

 

[momochuu]

he is only going to get better with time

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

I believe that Greninja's off stage and gimping potential is what will keep him in the higher end of tiers, his U-air spike and hydro pump are unique and incredibly powerful tools that not many other haracters can replicates

At this point it's hard to tell. New things are being discovered every day, my biggest concern to be honest is simply being outclassed. Pikachu is starting to look like the king of off stage and has a pretty strong combo game for example, however i just can't Greninja possibly dropping to the point of unviability.

Edit: should also note how strong his neutral game is, he can adapt well to both aggressive and defensive play styles and shurikens are down right monstrous.

 

[Spirst]

I don't see Greninja dipping strongly. I don't think he'll be the best character, but he seems to me like he's a really solid one regardless. He has gimping potential, great mobility, a good projectile, mixups, a good recovery, and a strong ground game. A character with that many tools doesn't fade into obscurity as the game develops but rather becomes a solid staple in it. With the Wii U version, Greninja will be able to space a lot better and his recovery will actually have minimal mistakes. He'll be good even within a year, I imagine.

 

[Darklink401]

His bair is extremely fast, and his smashes are pretty powerful too. His u-air, like shiek, is pretty darn good, and his special moves are nothing to scoff at. He'll likely just develop more and more, sort of like Fox and Falco, just generally strong characters.

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

I personally see his power level in this game comparable to Marth's in brawl, all round solid with good match ups but doesn't really dominate.

Character just has to many tools to fall off.

 

[Her0Noi5e]

The more I play him (and I play him a lot) the more I feel that he's more of a solid character then a gimmicky one. the one thing I can appreciate about graninja that I feel is really good about him, is his adaptability. He can play in your face, he can play off stage, and he can play from afar, but there is no defining trait that makes him super strong, it's just a combination of all these solid game play tactics that makes him good in my opinion.

there's never a time where you'll say "Greninja's air is too strong." or "greninja's pressure is too much", Greninja is just super solid, and really adaptive in my opinion, and I really, really like that about him.

 

[Spirst]

The more I play him (and I play him a lot) the more I feel that he's more of a solid character then a gimmicky one. the one thing I can appreciate about graninja that I feel is really good about him, is his adaptability. He can play in your face, he can play off stage, and he can play from afar, but there is no defining trait that makes him super strong, it's just a combination of all these solid game play tactics that makes him good in my opinion.

there's never a time where you'll say "Greninja's air is too strong." or "greninja's pressure is too much", Greninja is just super solid, and really adaptive in my opinion, and I really, really like that about him.

I feel similarly. I also don't feel like I've been in a matchup where I just feel shut down completely. A lot of the time, the errors are on the part of me rather than the limitations of the character.

 

[Eji1700]

My biggest concerns-

landing lag on fair.
Air lag on Nair.
Uslessness of down B(customs help this though).
Gimmickyness of side B.

Still if we get worst case scenarios on all of that he won't disappear. Pump is only going to get better as people learn just how many other ways we can use it, and his setups are still nasty.

 

[JBix]

I havent had the chance to play with him, but from the videos ive seen, he seems really solid. The only thing that has me worried is KO Potential.

 

[Her0Noi5e]

I havent had the chance to play with him, but from the videos ive seen, he seems really solid. The only thing that has me worried is KO Potential.

Yeah, that's one of the things I feel is his weak points also. He's really good at all these things, but its sort of just keeping pressure up and keep your tactics up and eventually if you do everything right, you'll just out pace them into a KO.

His Up smash, fair, and hydro pump move are the attacks you need to utilize in order to get solid KO's.

 

[CyBer_Hurricane]

The KO potential in grenenjas attacking moves may be so so, but a good up b gimper can win a for glory match really fast with it because it doesnt matter what percent the opponent is at, so im not sure if that is KO potential but it seems like it to me.

 

[mightychir]

Once that running SS gets developed more, I think he will be better as the meta is still so young.

Greninja is really solid, like most have said but yes KO potential is something I definitely need to work on. Sure I can rack up points, but sometimes I can get frustrated trying to KO at high %s which leads me to committing mistakes.

Usmash is my main KO method usually punishing and DACUS-ing or Fair (which I think has a good hitbox) and gimping with UpB (its difficult using the circle pad for me for this so I think when WiiU comes out it'd be better). Usually I have to really resort to outsmarting my opponent in order to get a clean punish. While Substitute's knockback is awesome against more skilled players it's more difficult to land on and SS is gimmicky (although I need to practice that running SS more).

 

[bajisci]

Greninja is ridiculously good. (And ridiculously buggy.)

 

[Darklink401]

Is he buggy?

 

[Shack]

His main drawback I think is that his short hop attacks are kind of awkward/limited and he has more trouble getting legit KOs. Other characters can simply KO with aerial moves around 100%, Greninja really needs a Smash or UpB gimp. He is really good, but not as easy to win with as others.

 

[Darklink401]

He's got no definitive weakness, really, as he's fast, pretty strong with smashes, has a lot of options and can fight from any range, really. Though his inability to KO at decent percentages is a bit of a doozy to work around.

 

[bajisci]

Greninja does not have trouble killing, at all.

 

[JBix]

Greninja does not have trouble killing, at all.

What methods have you found best for KOing? With him being new, there is a good chance we are doing wrong. Also whats your definition of a good percent for someone to be KO'ed?

 

[momochuu]

weak nair to up smash is strong. greninja kills very easily. all of his smashes are insane too.

 

[Marilink]

I don't find any problem KOing with Greninja, especially when Hydro Pump becomes a factor. USmash is amazing, Fsmash is strong, and Dsmash sends opponents at a low trajectory which helps set up Hydro Pump.

I think Greninja is good enough to remain in the upper tiers as the meta develops. Especially when DACUS and who-knows-what-else become possible on the Wii U.

 

[TehSharpie]

Dtilt -> Fair/Usmash is a thing. Both can be used at kill %'s but Fair is more likely to hit at around the 120% range

Fsmash, Usmash, Fair, and UpB are pretty good options. Uair can kill them up high. SS can be used as a situational KO. Even Water Shuriken can KO offstage. You also have Bair for that too as an alternative to Hydro Pump

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

The hardest part to Greninja isn't the fact that he lacks k.o options, it's more that they can be very telegraphed so usually need prior set up. That being said his off stage kill potential is one of, if not the best in the game. In fact you can usually go on that alone if you are competent enough.

Edit: should also note, once we have access to DACUS on stage kills will become much simpler, until than I'll just practice my gimping.

 

[Darklink401]

I can DACUS with characters without a C-stick, but it IS a lot easier with C-stick. XP

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

I can DACUS with characters without a C-stick, but it IS a lot easier with C-stick. XP

Large difference between a DACUS which requires a c-stick and a dash cancel up smash.

 

[Darklink401]

Aside from the speed?

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

Aside from the speed?

The distance traveled is pretty big difference, in combination with the speed is what makes it strong. It has a lot to do with the speed and distance of the smash attack which is why snakes was so strong in SSBB.

Go into a practice and compare a Shieks up smash from run to the DACUS in this video, you can pretty clearly see the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ismOSX5zTY

 

[Darklink401]

oookay I see it. Dayum. And this can only be done with the C-stick right?

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

Correct, in the video they are using a 3DS with a GameCube controller modded into it.

 

[Darklink401]

Doesn't seem very easy to pull off though XP

 

[Spirst]

It's not that difficult to pull off with a GC controller. I haven't tried it myself personally but DACUS (with the exception of Sheik) in Brawl wasn't all that hard.

 

[TypePositive]

I've used Greninja a lot, a lot, and as unbaised as I can get, I thin grennys one of the more adaptable characters. Kinda like marth used to be a bit. e doesn't really excel at any thin and I'd almost say he was totally mid-tier if nt for ****ing hydro pump. That move bumps greninja up a good couple of points in my opinion.

 

[choodles]

I think people don't really quite know how to deal with Greninja right now and when they start learning how to, it's gonna make it harder for the blue frog (especially for killing.) That being said, I still think he'll be solid later on. He just might not be top tier, but I still think he'll be viable.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

I feel like I will enjoy Gekkouga more on the Wii U as I have BNF'd to death a million times with him and for some reason I never seem to do things like phantasm with Falco when I mean to firebird. For some reason I just seem to shadow sneak at the least opportune times and that slight shift of the circle pad really is the death of me. With complete control Froggy is a very solid character overall I really enjoy playing him.

 

[Conda]

I feel like I will enjoy Gekkouga more on the Wii U as I have BNF'd to death a million times with him and for some reason I never seem to do things like phantasm with Falco when I mean to firebird. For some reason I just seem to shadow sneak at the least opportune times and that slight shift of the circle pad really is the death of me. With complete control Froggy is a very solid character overall I really enjoy playing him.

Yeah froakie is great. Gekkouga is an impressive character and I think Greninja will continue being great at the meta develops. Keromatsu has a speed-oriented design and that usually means good things for competitive viability. The thing about Frogadier that we have to remember is that he has hydro pump, which is one of the best non-recovery-granting ways to gimp. While it's tricky to pull off hydro-pump gimping, I think it'll become an important skill for Gekogahshier mains to utilize. Gekkouga will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Spirst]

Yeah froakie is great. Gekkouga is an impressive character and I think Greninja will continue being great at the meta develops. Keromatsu has a speed-oriented design and that usually means good things for competitive viability. The thing about Frogadier that we have to remember is that he has hydro pump, which is one of the best non-recovery-granting ways to gimp. While it's tricky to pull off hydro-pump gimping, I think it'll become an important skill for Gekogahshier mains to utilize. Gekkouga will be a force to be reckoned with.

Needs some work. You used the same name twice.

 

[Kikaioh]

I think my biggest problem is that Greninja feels a little slower than I'd like for him to be. In matchups I've had against good opponents I've often felt like I had to change from an offensive approach to more of a defensive/offensive mix, which isn't quite as much my playstyle. In the past it's often seemed like the really fast and twitch-response characters are the ones that reach the higher tiers (it's hard to defeat a character you can't touch), and since Greninja feels fast but maybe not the fastest, I wonder if he'll ultimately be considered top-tier or not, except maybe amongst the most exceptional players.

 

[Lukingordex]

I've been training with greninja and I'd like to ask some questions:

1- Is Uthrow -> Uair true combo in some characters?
2- I've managed to do a combo of Dtaunt -> Utilt -> Uair, is this really a true combo in specific cases?
3- Is Jab1 -> Jab 2- > Dtilt -> Fair a true combo?

I'm also being able to do things like Uthrow -> read air dodge -> punish with aerial or Uthrow -> punish desperate people spamming air dodge waiting for them to land and grab again. Looks like Greninja has a lot of potential, when he can't combo, he can wait and punish the opponent reactions.

 

[Darklink401]

I think my biggest problem is that Greninja feels a little slower than I'd like for him to be. In matchups I've had against good opponents I've often felt like I had to change from an offensive approach to more of a defensive/offensive mix, which isn't quite as much my playstyle. In the past it's often seemed like the really fast and twitch-response characters are the ones that reach the higher tiers (it's hard to defeat a character you can't touch), and since Greninja feels fast but maybe not the fastest, I wonder if he'll ultimately be considered top-tier or not, except maybe amongst the most exceptional players.

The only other characters that I'd say are more agile than Greninja are Sheik and Zero Suit Samus x.x