Armada is your Melee EVO 2015 Champion!

[zero sum]

i like watching hbox play but he's definitely my least favorite of the top players to watch because i feel like i can see more interesting matches if he's in losers or eliminated lol. i would have much rather seen pp vs mango lf than pp vs hungrybox personally. i really respect seeing how incredible his spacing and his movement is with puff but at the same time other top players like pp or mango bring out the things i really like better than hbox does. that being said i don't have to—and i don't—enjoy watching him ledge camp. i don't understand the deluge of people on various social media outlets who are trying to justify it or say that it's fun or interesting. that's subjective of course but i think most people will dislike it. he found a temporary and sort of gimmicky fix around what was bothering him. people will think it's boring and they're not wrong. it's okay to have differing opinions about this game :~)

snip

mango also won press start

 

[werk]

Except people DO run around in football to avoid being tackled. The problem wasn't Hbox giving Mang0 the run around, it's that Mang0 couldn't make the tackle. Armada had very clearly shown how to beat the ledge camping strategy with a down tilt earlier. There was no reason Mang0 couldn't have done the same thing.

I'm not saying that mango shouldn't have played better, he could have but I think at that point he just said screw it over HBoxs playstyle.

More that in any given tourney the cheesiest cheapest player is always going to be HBox. Hes good at that whole crap attack thing but he is boring to watch, less skilled than anyone else in a given matchup and never atraight out plays an opponent at that stage of the game.

Hence why he got booed and why Mango was salty.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

The skill difference between hbox and the next best jigs is so big that you have to respect the man no matter what you think of his play style.

 

[Eureka]

I'm not saying that mango shouldn't have played better, he could have but I think at that point he just said screw it over HBoxs playstyle.

More that in any given tourney the cheesiest cheapest player is always going to be HBox. Hes good at that whole crap attack thing but he is boring to watch, less skilled than anyone else in a given matchup and never atraight out plays an opponent at that stage of the game.

Hence why he got booed and why Mango was salty.

Mang0 was salty because he just threw away his chance at being the champion on SDing twice.
Hungrybox got booed because the way he won wasn't interesting to watch.
There's no such thing as cheap in EVO, you do what you have to do to win. Are we supposed to ask Hbox to select a worse strategy so we can have a better spectacle?

 

[werk]

Mang0 was salty because he just threw away his chance at being the champion on SDing twice.
Hungrybox got booed because the way he won wasn't interesting to watch.
There's no such thing as cheap in EVO, you do what you have to do to win. Are we supposed to ask Hbox to select a worse strategy so we can have a better spectacle?

Except HBox has no other mode of play than the cheapest possible tactic he can think of.

I mean if you think that's cool then whatever, obviously the crowd and the majority don't.

 

[RWB]

Except HBox has no other mode of play than the cheapest possible tactic he can think of.

I mean if you think that's cool then whatever, obviously the crowd and the majority don't.

"Cheapest possible tactic"

I don't see Hbox playing Fox(cheaper tactic in and of itself than anything Jiggs can pull out of it's hat). I

I say this as an Armada fan who liked that he went for the dual mains.


People who whine about Hbox being cheap are silly. You are free to not like him playing what you consider a boring style, but he doesn't play any cheaper than any other of the gods lol.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Jigs has no chance played any other way.

 

[TheFlyingCule]

As soon as Armada lost Apex, I was certain from that Moment that Armada was winning EVO. Didn't matter what happened in the tourneys leading up to the event, I just knew Armada would win. Armada is the best player of all time, I have believed this for a while, and I knew he wouldn't let EVO get away from him again

 

[PCHU]

Jigs has no chance played any other way.

Pretty much this; if Fox is bent on lasering Jiggs until death % (which is really early and, unlike rest, has no tradeoff involved on respawn), there isn't much Jiggs can do about it since anywhere above and around Fox is dangerous.
Luckily, Hbox had more room to go in and actually fight later on in the set, but it's clear that Fox still has the advantage in both mobility and overall ease of KOing.

Not discounting Armada's hard work, of course, but there are some things that you just have to accept.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Amount of Foxes: 22.
Amount of Falcos: 8.
Amount of Mid Tier characters: AmSa

 

[DaRkJaWs]

We gotta give credit to hbox though, he beat 3 of the other 4 melee gods present even if the one to mango was unfortunate for mango cuz he sd'd twice, and doing with jigs which is all about reads is just incredible. Any negative comments about him here are just bs, when there are no other jigs out there close to his level.

 

[dahuterschuter]

View attachment 62468
Seriously if you found H-Box game cheap or lame you don't like Melee, you just like flashy and fast stuff.

Hbox's opponent's switched to laser damaging because Hbox switched to edge camping.

What goes around comes around, it's called retaliation and Hbox was the instigator of all of it. Sure it's a legit tactic, play to win, that doesn't mean people aren''t going to call him a ****ter for it and be right.

 

[vexoskeleton]

Except HBox has no other mode of play than the cheapest possible tactic he can think of.

I mean if you think that's cool then whatever, obviously the crowd and the majority don't.

Who cares what 'the majority' or 'the crowd' think. Hbox isn't there to entertain anyone, he is there to win and with such a stall character as puff you almost literally have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to beat players as amazing as mango, ppmd, and leffen, which Hbox did. When you play to be the best there are no cheap tactics, just good ones and bad ones.

 

[J.P]

Hbox's opponent's switched to laser damaging because Hbox switched to edge camping.

What goes around comes around, it's called retaliation and Hbox was the instigator of all of it. Sure it's a legit tactic, play to win, that doesn't mean people aren''t going to call him a ****ter for it and be right.

Please do yourself a favor and watch the matches again. 90% of the times it was the Fox who clearly went for the cheap laser damage (especially when they were a stock up and at high percents) first. H-Box already talked about this at FC Return in his interview saying how he only ledge camps when the Fox laser camps.

 

[SHiFT_]

Hey look Fox won a Melee tournament once again how original

Don't try to discredit Armada for using Fox. He's displayed an incredible amount of consistency at the high level and it's finally paying off now that he has won EVO. Remember that the best character in the game actually requires an incredible amount of skill to play with Armada's precision and consistency, and that PPMD won Apex with Marth and Falco.

The Fox and Final Destination jokes are outdated. Final Destination is often banned by most players anyway.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Please do yourself a favor and watch the matches again. 90% of the times it was the Fox who clearly went for the cheap laser damage (especially when they were a stock up and at high percents) first. H-Box already talked about this at FC Return in his interview saying how he only ledge camps when the Fox laser camps.

Yeah because they know how Hungrybox plays.

As I said, the laser damage is retaliatory for pressuring approaches because if they don't they know Hbox is happy to take a percent/stock lead and edge camp now to time. What goes around comes around, it's called retaliation and Hbox was the instigator of all of it. Sure it's a legit tactic, play to win, that doesn't mean people aren''t going to call him a ****ter for it and be right.

 

[J.P]

Yeah because they know how Hungrybox plays.

As I said, the laser damage is retaliatory for pressuring approaches because if they don't they know Hbox is happy to take a percent/stock lead and edge camp now to time. What goes around comes around, it's called retaliation and Hbox was the instigator of all of it. Sure it's a legit tactic, play to win, that doesn't mean people aren''t going to call him a ****ter for it and be right.

I like how you completely missed my point....

Anyways I don't really want to waste my time saying things that have already been said so I'll quote this amazing post made by @ PootisKonga that basically explains H-Box thought process.

The problem with laser camping is that there are 3 options:

• approach, which Fox can punish
• never approach, take 999% and die to a stray Nair or something
• camp ledge until Fox approaches.

Hbox chose option 3 because it was the most likely choice to put the odds in his favor

If you are smart, I'm sure you'll understand that it was actually the Fox that forced HBox to camp. Just in case you didn't know, most of the times Fox dictates the Jigs vs Puff MU.

 

[Vardant]

Armada deserved that victory. I would've liked Mang0 to secure 3vo, but like I told @ChocoboLauren earlier on twitter, If mang0 didn't get it, I would've wanted Armada or Leffen to take it. Overall great performance in Top 8. Wasn't too much of a fan of Hbox's ledge stalling though.

 

[dahuterschuter]

I like how you completely

I didn't actually though, which is why I refuted it.

most of the times Fox dictates the Jigs vs Puff MU.

And yet today it was dictated by Hungrybox, which is how he won his way all the way to grand finals. He held the matches in his hands all the way up to when Armada got wise to his edge camping and turned match control back in his favour out of Hbox's.

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

Leffen sucks and Mango is a baby. So much disrespect from the audience when H-Box came in 2nd. You know this is why I hate competitive smash, especially Melee. Half the players are complete tolls and the audience just fangasms over "The Top 3". They were mad that the Melee matches got interesting and their "Gods" didn't make it to the top. Such a shame that the game was ruined.

Smash 4 elitist incoming

 

[J.P]

I didn't actually though, which is why I refuted it.

And yet today it was dictated by Hungrybox, which is how he won his way all the way to grand finals. He held the matches in his hands all the way up to when Armada got wise to his edge camping and turned match control back in his favour out of Hbox's.

And yet again you completely ignore my effort on trying to educate you. Seriously if I were you, I would read the PootisKimga's post that I quoted in my last posr instead of mindlesly replying like a little scared kid. I don't expect you to understand Fox vs Jigs MU when you are blinded by rage but if you calm down and actually read and listen to what top players have to say you might understand a bit of top Melee (:

 

[dahuterschuter]

And yet again you completely ignore my effort on trying to educate you. Seriously if I were you, I would read the PootisKimga's post that I quoted in my last posr instead of mindlesly replying like a little scared kid. I don't expect you to understand Fox vs Jigs MU when you are blinded by rage but if you calm down and actually read and listen to what top players have to say you might understand a bit of top Melee (:

That's some epic deflection attempts and certainly a trilby tip deserved in your direction, however you've already been proven wrong and I think if you had anything further to bring to the discourse you would have already. Instead I see you've adopted the classic internet argument golden oldie of just ignoring the actual subject matter and trying to level attacks at the person you're speaking to because you've been backed into a corner and have no other ground to go to since your position has been pulled out from under you by basic reasoning.

So did you have anything else? Or are we going to see some more of these tasty internet vintage diversion tactics?

 

[Eureka]

That's some epic deflection attempts and certainly a trilby tip deserved in your direction, however you've already been proven wrong and I think if you had anything further to bring to the discourse you would have already. Instead I see you've adopted the classic internet argument golden oldie of just ignoring the actual subject matter and trying to level attacks at the person you're speaking to because you've been backed into a corner and have no other ground to go to since your position has been pulled out from under you by basic reasoning.

So did you have anything else? Or are we going to see some more of these tasty internet vintage diversion tactics?

Here's the thing, Hbox's options where ledge camp, or get stomped. Hungrybox decided to ledge camp, and he won. Is it right to call someone a ****ter because they tried to win at a tournament with thousands of dollars on the line?

 

[PCHU]

I didn't actually though, which is why I refuted it.

And yet today it was dictated by Hungrybox, which is how he won his way all the way to grand finals. He held the matches in his hands all the way up to when Armada got wise to his edge camping and turned match control back in his favour out of Hbox's.

The edge camping was a smart strategy, but notice that Armada was still able to laser him from midstage.
In total, Armada lost one game to this strategy and it still isn't infallible; it even got HBox killed twice.

No matter which way you slice it, Fox has the advantage.
Puff isn't some cheap unbeatable force, especially since she has no projectile and is highly susceptible to KOs off the top, both weaknesses Fox can exploit with relative ease.

I'm not condemning Armada or supporting HBox, the matchup just is what it is; it's in Fox's best interest to run away and shoot lasers because it's the absolute safest option, but Puff's game revolves around her being able to either lure/pressure Fox offstage into a carry or find a setup for rest, which is still considered a tradeoff due to KOs off the side.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Here's the thing, Hbox's options where ledge camp, or get stomped. Hungrybox decided to ledge camp, and he won. Is it right to call someone a ****ter because they tried to win at a tournament with thousands of dollars on the line?

People can call each other whatever they want for whatever reason depending on their experience. From Hbox's position it was right to ledge camp on everyone who didn't know how to deal with it because he was on the stage playing for money. For the audience it was wrong because he's stalling matches to time at the biggest Smash event in history on the big stage in front of hundreds of thousands of people watching for entertainment. Both of these positions are correct for their own contexts. I don't even care that he stalled because I used to love watching Armada/Hbox thirty minute sets when Armada would pull YL against him. All it does is create a new situation where you get to watch two absolute top players enter into a mental game of one trying to figure out how to get Hbox off that ledge, and the only one who was able to figure out the puzzle today and neutralize the option was Armada because he's a smart, methodical, and patient player.

People are going to decide what they think is good sportsmanship and good entertainment. It's like watching your opponent's screen in splitscreen FPS and camping a corner. It's using the options you have available to you to win a game, and if you particularly want to win then it's the right thing to do right? Doesn't mean anyone is wrong for calling you an ass for doing it.

Bottom line is that strategy became unviable as quickly as it became viable since Hbox rode it through to second place, but now every has seen Armada 100% shut it down so Hbox is right back to square one, which isn't even a bad square to be in. He was a top player already without stalling on ledge and we saw today that even when forced back on-stage he's still able to hold his own anyway because he's an excellent player.

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

That's some epic deflection attempts and certainly a trilby tip deserved in your direction, however you've already been proven wrong and I think if you had anything further to bring to the discourse you would have already. Instead I see you've adopted the classic internet argument golden oldie of just ignoring the actual subject matter and trying to level attacks at the person you're speaking to because you've been backed into a corner and have no other ground to go to since your position has been pulled out from under you by basic reasoning.

So did you have anything else? Or are we going to see some more of these tasty internet vintage diversion tactics?

Quick everybody reply to this guys post by saying idiot in as many languages as possible!








If you actually do this, I will laugh. In other words jk.

 

[Phoenix502]

good grief, people, I can only imagine if you folks actually did this in person... there's bound to be a fight, even if new generation runt players are stoking the fires for giggles...

so your favorite player (sans Armada) didn't beat Hbox, that does not mean it's all said and done, there's always next year... and whatever tourneys come in between then and now.

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

good grief, people, I can only imagine if you folks actually did this in person... there's bound to be a fight, even if new generation runt players are stoking the fires for giggles...

so your favorite player (sans Armada) didn't beat Hbox, that does not mean it's all said and done, there's always next year... and whatever tourneys come in between then and now.

M2K didn't enter, and I'm not a noob, yet I strangely feel this is directed at me.

 

[JSG]

With the three majors of the year all over, I feel as if I need to be seeing a "Where are they now?" ending credits montage of the best players in both games. This year was an intense one for Smash, and we still have 5 months left in it.

 

[FallofBrawl]

How can SOME melee fans talk down on smash 4 camping when you can do it in melee?
Anyway, both games had amazing top 8's, both with a combined viewership of around 300k! HYPE! Hopefully both games return to 2016 (and PM too plz MrWizard)
Edit: in case of butthurt, I'm just calling it how I see it.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

How can melee fans talk down on smash 4 camping when you can do it in melee?
Anyway, both games had amazing top 8's, both with a combined viewership of around 300k! HYPE! Hopefully both games return to 2016 (and PM too plz MrWizard)

Because in Melee that only happens when Jigglypuff is involved. In Smash 4 practically every match is like that.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Because in Melee that only happens when Jigglypuff is involved. In Smash 4 practically every match is like that.

If you actually know how smash 4 works, you can't do that because invincibility runs out after second regrab and it only happened because of custom villager and staticmanny's custom sonic. So please don't say it happens every match when it doesn't.

 

[Casval]

This is what I've learned from this discussion thread and evo:

• Hbox is good
• Hbox wins a lot
• People develop strategies to beat hbox
• >laser spamming
• Hbox develops new strategy to avoid it
• People hate hbox for not staying on stage and getting lasered to usmash kill percents

kappa.png

I'll admit. I was furious watching the winners bracket set with hbox and Armada. It wasn't what I expected. By the time grands rolled around, I didn't think I had the patience for a comeback by hbox (although I still had hope in that last match).

But I recognized that ledge camping was the only thing he could do to stay alive. Scar and Toph were talking about how Armada had essentially perfected his anti-jigs laser camping. So what's he gonna do? Accept a loss because Armada can counter him, or change the way he plays?

Anyway. Hbox haters can rejoice. He said in a recent interview that smash is going on the back burner now that he's starting his job.

 

[TheTurok]

RESET is only one letter away from REST. Coincidence? Im not so sure

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) July 19, 2015

jiggs be popping that e

 

[Jonn]

How did Mang0 manage to SD twice in that match against HungryBox? Was he hungover?

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

How did Mang0 manage to SD twice in that match against HungryBox? Was he hungover?

mang0 sds twice against hbox in one match
- still beats westballz - seems legit

 

[PootisKonga]

Don't try to discredit Armada for using Fox. He's displayed an incredible amount of consistency at the high level and it's finally paying off now that he has won EVO. Remember that the best character in the game actually requires an incredible amount of skill to play with Armada's precision and consistency, and that PPMD won Apex with Marth and Falco.

The Fox and Final Destination jokes are outdated. Final Destination is often banned by most players anyway.

Hey look Fox won a Melee tournament once again how original


In all seriousness, great job to both players and I was glad to see so much character diversity in a high level Melee tourney!

I was making a joke, dude, don't try to make me look like a bad guy by only quoting half my post. Yeah, I don't like Melee Fox's design, but I can appreciate the technical skill and mental capabilities needed to play him at a high level

 

[Phoenix502]

M2K didn't enter, and I'm not a noob, yet I strangely feel this is directed at me.

M2K's been having hand problems from what I hear, if he's taking a break to recuperate I'm all for it... I hardly even know you, how would I know if you're a noob?

and my statement was directed at the folks arguing over petty things... you happen to be one of them...

 

[Sp1nda]

Personally, I don't feel bad for Mango. Mango used to talk so much **** on Hungrybox, and overall does so much better, and you always have to root for the underdog (for me at least lol.)
It feels good to see him get the best kind of vengeance.
For real, Mango was saltier than the bottom of an empty pretzel bag.

 

[Lust for Glory]

That last game game between HBox and Mango isnt something I would label "deserved".

Yes, the facts are that Mango SD'd twice at low percentages. Only someone idiotic or uninformed would say otherwise. However, saying HBox DESERVED the win doesn't really go by well either. Sure, the man played well and/or correctly, and a top 8 EVO finish can prove it. That being said, no matter how well you play, you are NEVER actually taking a stock from your opponent when they SD. The name is self explanatory-- SELF Destruct. Mango basically threw away 2 stocks for whatever reasons he may have. HBox didnt land some combo on him to take those stocks. Hungrybox did NOT deserve those stocks, as he never earned them. However, this is a competition. The phrase we all have come to mindlessly spew during commentary "WE TAKE THOSE" is because we ACKNOWLEDGE a person's mistake, but show no mercy because we expect them to be capable of near "flawless" or top level play. The phrase isnt "WE EARN THOSE" for a reason. There was nothing that you worked for and earned, and if you did, it was minimal. Gimps are a different story because you BAIT your opponent into a bad position and KO them early. SDs? Nah, you didnt do crap.

Yes, Hbox took the win over Mango. Did he deserve it? I certainly believe he deserved the first game he won. Game 3? Depends. He certainly worked hard to take the remaining Mango stocks, but having it be such a close game with TWO SDs makes me firmly believe he MOST LIKELY would have lost. However, there was always that possibility of HBox pulling through, in the same fashion that Chu did vs HugS, or Mango did vs Plup game 2.