Are true combos important?

[Rover The CHIEF]

True combo's aren't exactly important, tho they do help quite a lot during matches, combo's alone won't necessarily guarantee you victory as reads play quite a huge role in Smash 4.

Take it from me, my biggest players are Samus (not zero suit) and Ganondorf, I don't combo often (very difficult to combo with these guys) but instead use reads and timing to win matches.

 

[Megamang]

True combo's aren't exactly important, tho they do help quite a lot during matches, combo's alone won't necessarily guarantee you victory as reads play quite a huge role in Smash 4.

Take it from me, my biggest players are Samus (not zero suit) and Ganondorf, I don't combo often (very difficult to combo with these guys) but instead use reads and timing to win matches.

It depends a lot on your character. Knowing how to convert a jab into a smash with fox, a throw into a kill with luigi, and a zair into a grab with zamus is all very important.

Ganon has 1 hit combos =P

 

[billpika]

Can Fox still jab-upsmash in this game? I think can, right? If that jab infinite was a thing, this should be a thing.

Anyway, you still have to know your bread and butter combos. Basic stuff like d-throw fair fair.

It seems that, from my scrubby point of view, footstools might become important in the future. After all, they can't be teched. There are videos of lots of setups using them, but they seem grossly impractical.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Take it from me, my biggest players are Samus (not zero suit) and Ganondorf, I don't combo often (very difficult to combo with these guys) but instead use reads and timing to win matches.

Rover, you are not following the Samus boards. Samus has without a doubt the largest true combo list in the game. Almost every move she does has a combo, a tech chase, or a string out of it - literally, not figuratively. It is likely why from a design perspective she has such a terrible basic neutral game with skin tight hit and hurt-boxes, because if she does hit you, you can take 50+ damage and likely outright die.
Here are some videos:
Basic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPveD9XHFA
Advanced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_pauGLVAKg

And I highly suggest you read my extensive and detailed list:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-string-list-and-knowledge-compendium.391853/
If all you're doing is working off of reads, you are literally missing out on a major aspect of this character and bucket loads of damage. Some of them are in fact technically challenging, but compared to other fighting games, the average is pretty much on par. The difficulty is the narrow range, and the correlating with rage, staleness, and target specific all of which is detailed how to do. It requires work, practice, and knowledge of percents. it's not paralyzer -> f-smash or hoo-hah simple.

 

[LightLV]

I believe Diddy was built properly, but the problem is that he along with a few others were the only ones built properly, so he was seen as OP.

This has always been the problem with top tiers in smash. The reason Metaknight was so good in Brawl is because he had guaranteed confirms in a game where nobody else did. Even now in SSB4, the top-tier characters are simply the ones with decent hitboxes and frames, but most importantly, they all have good reliable confirms.

I think his point was that if a move can be confirmed into a kill move, it might as well be the kill move except its way easier to hit. Like, in a high level match, you are basically "dead" when someone hits you with a jab that confirms into a u-smash. He didn't have to fish for the kill move at all.

yeah that's the idea. The issue is that not every character has this kind of option, and for most characters it does just come down to playing tag with high KB moves.

I don't think this is a big issue if the character in question is able to get damage up really high fast.

Rover, you are not following the Samus boards. Samus has without a doubt the largest true combo list in the game. Almost every move she does has a combo, a tech chase, or a string out of it - literally, not figuratively. It is likely why from a design perspective she has such a terrible basic neutral game with skin tight hit and hurt-boxes, because if she does hit you, you can take 50+ damage and likely outright die.
Here are some videos:
Basic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPveD9XHFA
Advanced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_pauGLVAKg

And I highly suggest you read my extensive and detailed list:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-string-list-and-knowledge-compendium.391853/
If all you're doing is working off of reads, you are literally missing out on a major aspect of this character and bucket loads of damage. Some of them are in fact technically challenging, but compared to other fighting games, the average is pretty much on par. The difficulty is the narrow range, and the correlating with rage, staleness, and target specific all of which is detailed how to do. It requires work, practice, and knowledge of percents. it's not paralyzer -> f-smash or hoo-hah simple.

That is certainly interesting. At first glance though i'm skeptical of just how useful these combos are, since those starters are extremely unsafe.

It's really unfortunate that most characters dont have a pool of low knockback abilities with enough hitstun that would allow for confirms like that. It would make smash way more interesting to play, watch, and most importantly practice. Unfortunately the defensive mechanics don't allow for stuff like this to really be viable too often, since no close range moves are safe on block in this game.

 

[Megamang]

I do feel way safer hitting shield in this game than brawl; I'd say it was definitely an improvement.

 

[Rover The CHIEF]

It depends a lot on your character. Knowing how to convert a jab into a smash with fox, a throw into a kill with luigi, and a zair into a grab with zamus is all very important.

Ganon has 1 hit combos =P

It pretty much does depend on your character, though some characters have a much harder time linking moves than others
(Fox jab -> grab compared to samus jab->) Ganon also has 2 2-hit combos.

Rover, you are not following the Samus boards. Samus has without a doubt the largest true combo list in the game. Almost every move she does has a combo, a tech chase, or a string out of it - literally, not figuratively. It is likely why from a design perspective she has such a terrible basic neutral game with skin tight hit and hurt-boxes, because if she does hit you, you can take 50+ damage and likely outright die.
Here are some videos:
Basic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPveD9XHFA
Advanced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_pauGLVAKg

And I highly suggest you read my extensive and detailed list:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-string-list-and-knowledge-compendium.391853/
If all you're doing is working off of reads, you are literally missing out on a major aspect of this character and bucket loads of damage. Some of them are in fact technically challenging, but compared to other fighting games, the average is pretty much on par. The difficulty is the narrow range, and the correlating with rage, staleness, and target specific all of which is detailed how to do. It requires work, practice, and knowledge of percents. it's not paralyzer -> f-smash or hoo-hah simple.

Thanks for your insight, yes I will admit I am not at all following the Samus boards, in fact I don't follow any type of board for Samus at all. I learned all I have with Samus and Gannon by just playing with them, using very little guides. I saw those videos you linked and as "combo"ish as they seem, they are quite unsafe to pull off as a good opponent would be shielding almost every time if I were to attack this way, and grab me instantly afterwards.

Besides my type of Samus play style revolves around defense, reads, and a little luck considering when I play online that lag doesn't cause my game play to suffer, as I am battling connection speed occasionally, spacing, timing, and occasionally throwing out a tilt when I want to do a smash attack as my 3ds does not have a c-stick.

In the end, the way I play Samus works for me perfectly, and I've had great success in using her the way I do now.

 

[Sleeplost]

You're playing with a game where a good chunk of competitive play is based on mental game. True combos being strings of attacks which are inescapable are incredibly important, yes, however there are so little of these and they're so situational that a large amount of the time you play you'll be stuck trying to read your opponent's next move. As useful as true combos are, it's a better idea to try and focus on strategies to trick opponents, get hits, and preform trades in your favor.

 

[DungeonMaster]

That is certainly interesting. At first glance though i'm skeptical of just how useful these combos are, since those starters are extremely unsafe.
(...) Unfortunately the defensive mechanics don't allow for stuff like this to really be viable too often, since no close range moves are safe on block in this game.

U-tilt is safe on shield, f-tilt and spaced b-air likewise. D-air autocancels out of a shot hop and can cross up. Dash attack can cross up. Up-air, n-air and b-air likewise can cross up and both n-air and up-air have very low landing lag. Any aerial can frame cancel on shield (new to 1.06) or hit and this happens quite naturally out of a short-hop airdodge for n-air, b-air and up-air. Shields are not really the problem in landing these, the problems are postage stamp hitboxes with hurboxes right beside for Samus (i.e. priority and leeway in execution).

In very simple terms this game was dominated for many months by a true combo: d-throw -> up-air for Diddy. Combos are force multipliers. I could f-tilt you 10+ times to take you from 0-80% or I could try and land one dash attack and one up-tilt. IF your character allows for it, you use them, It's really not much more complicated than that.

 

[LightLV]

U-tilt is safe on shield, f-tilt and spaced b-air likewise. D-air autocancels out of a shot hop and can cross up. Dash attack can cross up. Up-air, n-air and b-air likewise can cross up and both n-air and up-air have very low landing lag. Any aerial can frame cancel on shield (new to 1.06) or hit and this happens quite naturally out of a short-hop airdodge for n-air, b-air and up-air. Shields are not really the problem in landing these, the problems are postage stamp hitboxes with hurboxes right beside for Samus (i.e. priority and leeway in execution).

In very simple terms this game was dominated for many months by a true combo: d-throw -> up-air for Diddy. Combos are force multipliers. I could f-tilt you 10+ times to take you from 0-80% or I could try and land one dash attack and one up-tilt. IF your character allows for it, you use them, It's really not much more complicated than that.

Samus' Utilt? Safe on block? Also, no attacks on this game can really "cross up", and I haven't seen any aerials getting frame cancelled to the point of allowing safety on landing. And yeah, characters like Luigi and Diddy get their ridiculousness from the fact their best combos have grab starters. Pretty much everyone has a combo in this game, but Diddy was able to get damage and kills off one of the easiest attacks to catch someone with in this game.

 

[Megamang]

Samus' Utilt? Safe on block? Also, no attacks on this game can really "cross up", and I haven't seen any aerials getting frame cancelled to the point of allowing safety on landing. And yeah, characters like Luigi and Diddy get their ridiculousness from the fact their best combos have grab starters. Pretty much everyone has a combo in this game, but Diddy was able to get damage and kills off one of the easiest attacks to catch someone with in this game.

You'd be surprised. Ganon's up-smash is safe on block, I think trading high startup for low endlag and high power gives these moves that property for a few characters.

You can crossup... I main a character with less than stellar OOS options though.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yes. They are very important.

Having true combos promotes aggressive and tactful play, as both players know they are capable of delivering high damage capacity strings if the opponent makes a mistake, but the offending player can still force an opening if he / she chose to.

While mindgames are important, and getting trades and punishments may yield positive results as far as doing as much damage and take as little damage as possible, think about the message it sends the player if they couldn't be severely punished for a blatant mistake: there is no real danger.

If the opponent is constantly making a mistake, and he is only taking a minor amount if damage, what is stopping him from making the same mistakes over and over? With a combo, you can clearly send the message "that wasn't a good idea" to the opponent, and they will prompt to make better choices in game. In fighting games like Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Persona 4 Arena or whatever, players are rewarded with a solid combo if the opponent doesn't calculate his / her risks properly, ultimately creating better players in my opinion.

 

[JoeR]

MInd games are what this game is all abaout and not true combos. Can they help? Absolutely, but it's what follows from 60% on that is really important and most chars dont have true combos that are easiliy made at that point.

 

[srn347]

True combos can comprise a major component of one's damage-building game, but don't limit yourself to them. Between stale-move negation and predictability, it's nearly impossible not to implement non-true combos (unless you're playing someone who doesn't tend to need combos).