Are Project M Recoveries too good?

[Mithost]

Lots of people have been talking about PM recoveries lately. One of the main complaints about PM is that characters live forever. In many cases, characters have been nerfed because they need to land an absolute kill move (alternate character scream) or a spike to get a kill. Jigglypuff is considered by many to be terrible in this game despite being a carbon copy of Melee Jiggs, simply because non-spacies can't get gimped by the wall of pain. On the other side of the coin, the characters with bad (or difficult) recoveries suffer due to not having the options of landing on the stage, the ledge, or just dying earlier than a large portion of the cast.

Project M recoveries are stronk, but are they too stronk?

 

[Saito]

I don't think anyone's recovery is too good, but their options while recovering are plentiful which in turn prolongs the match because it's harder to pull off a guaranteed edgeguard.

 

[Brim]

Wasn't there an exact thread like this before?
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On topic. No, not really. The recoveries are strong for the most part, the only real exception for a recovery either just not being very, very good is obviously Roy's. I love him to death but the fact he falls so fast makes the recovery he has a complete hindrance. So, I guess he's sorta like Little Mac because Little Mac was shown to not be very good in the air or have a half-decent recovery they're alike.
But, on if any are too good? Hell no. Maybe Ivysaur's Vine Whip needs to get toned down, 'cause I think that kills at like forty percent. That's ****ing ridiculous. But, the overall answer is, most are just equally good - with some exceptions maybe Ganondorf. I mean, if you base on just the recovery but with his tools, like using Wizards' Foot to get within range of the platform so he can hit it with his recovery (If you don't kill yourself with the WZ) his recovery ability for a power character becomes terrifying.
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Sorry went off topic.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I said no cause I don't know what stronk is.

 

[Brim]

I said no cause I don't know what stronk is.

/has to agree

 

[Saito]

Stronk is a typo for strong.

It used to be used sarcastically, but is now used both jokingly and seriously.

It just means that they are being less serious about the topic at hand though.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Stronk is a typo for strong.

It used to be used sarcastically, but is now used both jokingly and seriously.

It just means that they are being less serious about the topic at hand though.

I was being sarcastic. I'm aware it was a typo, intentional or not. I voted based on my experiences, not my lack of understanding.

 

[Saito]

I was being sarcastic. I'm aware it was a typo, intentional or not. I based on my experiences, not my lack

This is the second time I've fallen for one of your ruses.

 

[Sour Supreme]

This is the second time I've fallen for one of your ruses.

Haha. It's okay, Saito. I'll tone it down.

 

[Deleted member]

i think tethers are polarized because some characters just can't deal with them well and some can, and then people are like "edge guard tethers better lol" which is total bull****. but overall the recoveries are probably fine except for a few (mario).

 

[Celestis]

i think tethers are polarized because some characters just can't deal with them well and some can, and then people are like "edge guard tethers better lol" which is total bull****. but overall the recoveries are probably fine except for a few (mario).

Tether guarding is pretty easy. When you edge hog, the tether character has no choice but to jump up. Punishing that is easy once.

 

[Deleted member]

Tether guarding is pretty easy. When you edge hog, the tether character has no choice but to jump up. Punishing that is easy once.

if i get to tether and make it back and all you hit me with is a 13% aerial every time, it'd call that a pretty good trade for me. most characters would just get killed.

 

[trash?]

in general, I would prefer buffing edgeguards more than I'd prefer nerfing recovery

good recovery is expected from low-tier melee veterans, now that mewtwo and zelda aren't booty buttcheeks on every other point, their recovery has purpose in a metagame. on the flipside, edgeguards aren't really as maxxed out as they are with recoveries

having weird polarizing stuff like this is expected in a game with over forty characters, but you could at least have some hard counters to godly recovery. even adding some more spikes to movesets could do wonders

 

[Celestis]

in general, I would prefer buffing edgeguards more than I'd prefer nerfing recovery

good recovery is expected from low-tier melee veterans, now that mewtwo and zelda aren't booty buttcheeks on every other point, their recovery has purpose in a metagame. on the flipside, edgeguards aren't really as maxxed out as they are with recoveries

having weird polarizing stuff like this is expected in a game with over forty characters, but you could at least have some hard counters to godly recovery. even adding some more spikes to movesets could do wonders

Finally, someone sees it how I see it.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I would rather the game have recoveries somewhere around Fox's level, maybe a bit stronger.

What I mean is I wish recoveries weren't too good, but at the same time they weren't bad either.
They should be gimpable, yet they should have lots of mix ups. One that forces the person recovering to be creative, and the edge guarder to be smart.

 

[9bit]

I'd be into a 10 - 20% reduction of efficacy for recoveries, but I think it's too soon to say for sure. We all gotta work on our edgeguards more then see if the recoveries keep up.

 

[Bleck]

Hasn't this thread happened, like, twice already?

 

[TylerX5]

Jigglypuff is considered by many to be terrible in this game despite being a carbon copy of Melee Jiggs, simply because non-spacies can't get gimped by the wall of pain

I think it's mostly because of the push mechanics. That really hurts her ability to rest.

 

[Zujx]

A couple are annoying but it all really adds into the diversity of this game I really don't mind it makes the meta more interesting

 

[kaizo13]

personally, i do feel recoveries in PM are too good...and in many cases too safe.

in Melee, recoveries usually consisted of jumps and Up+B. In PM, many characters have specials that give them extra momentum, and you can act out of them afterwards....for example

Diddy: side-b> jump> up-b

Pit: side-b> multiple-jumps> up-b

Lucario: down-b> jump> up-b> cancel> airdodge

Mario: jump> side-b> down-b> up-b> walljump> up-b

Ike: side-b> walljump> up-b

Sonic: side-b> jump> up-b

ZSS: down-b> jump> up-b

Mewtwo: hover/jump> up-b> attack

let's not forget all the tether characters in this game and how effective tethers currently are.

These are just some examples, and reasons why i feel recoveries are better than they should be. Sure some might argue that these buffed recoveries add more "depth" to the game, which i don't agree with at all. All it really does is give those who get knocked off stage, a much easier time getting back.

When knocked offstage, you should be at a disadvantage for letting yourself to be put in that position. I feel that giving the player offstage too many recovery options is allowing too much room for error, which doesn't really coincide with the nature of competitiveness.

 

[TreK]

Mewtwo's is too good, Roy's is too bad. Ledge stalling is a terrible mechanic.

The rest I am completely okay with. I really like how recoveries in PM are versatile, yet edgeguardable. Truly a mix of what I like about both Brawl and Melee.

It could still use a few tweaks here and there, but I am mostly content with what we have atm.

 

[KayB]

The thing about tethers is generally that some characters can deal with it and some can't. For example, Meta Knight can deal with it easily by using jump > nair due to his falling speed. Diddy Kong can do this by stalling and timing his down-b right. A lot of people say just grab the edge and they'll just pop up, but more often than not punishing these will let them back on stage. This is a good trade where the alternative is just you dying. Generally characters with fast falling speeds have trouble edge guarding tethers.

 

[GP&B]

Mario: jump> side-b> down-b> up-b> walljump> up-b

Ike: side-b> walljump> up-b

You know Mario could do all of that besides the walljump (at least as easily) in Melee right?

Also, stop picking walled stages against these two characters and it's not a problem.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

but overall the recoveries are probably fine except for a few (mario).

You forgot about Zelda and m2 and a few others. All you have to do, is not pick a pillar stage, and actually grow a pair, and challenge Mario's recovery. I don't know why you have such a weakness for Mario. You supposedly play Marth, Mario and all the other mushroom kingdom characters have a bad MU with you. No complaining

 

[Mithost]

Wasn't there an exact thread like this before?

Hasn't this thread happened, like, twice already?

Sorry about that. I looked at the first page and didn't find a topic about it, so I assumed it wasn't done recently. I've been away from smashboards for a little bit.

in general, I would prefer buffing edgeguards more than I'd prefer nerfing recovery

This would be a pretty nice alternative. Most characters would be able to get back to the stage, but most characters would also be able to stop them from doing so.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Nah. it shifts the focus away from people anxiously fishing for edgegaurds the whole entire game and rather just makes it a possible option. There are people/characters out there that are miles more highly skilled than others at edgegaurding, no matter how good the recovery. It also makes the game much more dynamic and makes off stage fighting an easier possibility all around

 

[Necrojinsei]

I believe that we should give a boost to the edge guarding abilities of the characters on stage. Something we are seeing more of is the off stage fights between characters that can, with this more improved off stage mobility we are seeing a dangerous element that can sometimes be some of the most hyped moments in a match. Taking away that seems to be counter intuitive with the excitement and further gameplay that it brings. But here is the questions, should everyone get a boost to their edge guarding abilities?

Think about it like this, should be buff everyone's ability to edge guard or should it be buffed for characters that have poor ability to recover? I'm just thinking that while minor tweaks could be used to balance out the off stage game, some of the poorer recovery characters should get different areas of buff rather than buffing their recoveries (which would play into the whole recoveries are too good).

I would like to see what it is you guys have in mind for the improvements or debuffs for these characters, so that we could get a clearer picture of the ideas that you're trying to convey.

 

[SAUS]

I think it's mostly because of the push mechanics. That really hurts her ability to rest.

Jigglypuff shouldn't have to rest people to kill them.

 

[Terotrous]

I am starting to think that Zair recoveries might be a little too good, you simply have so many options with them that there are almost no practical edgeguards. I think it might have to be the case that you can no longer drop from your Tether Recovery before you reel to the ledge, thus forcing the ledge hop if anyone else is grabbing it.

 

[Bellioes]

People seem to be saying buffing all the characters edge guarding abilities is a viable solution but how would we go about doing this? More jumps is playing too much with the game mechanics IMO so I wouldnt agree with that.

Another option would be giving characters new moves/modifying their moves for better edgeguarding. However, I believe edeguarding effectively with a character is more of a skill than just a moveset change. Maybe increasing a moves hitbox/speed/priority/hitstun would help, but for me, knowing to edgeguard effectively with that move is another story. People will still adapt and learn to avoid said move. Otherwise, we might as well just give people guaranteed edgeguards and avoid getting knocked off stage.

Sweet spotting requires a certain level of skill as well so removing that to benefit edge guarders isnt the answer either.

People may disagree with me but IF PM recoveries really are too "stronk", which I dont believe they are except in very specific cases ( ex. M2's having too many options once they reach the ledge with teleport stalling), nerfing their recoveries seems to be a more viable solution than buffing other characters edgeguarding abilities.

EDIT:

Also, I strongly agree with this post. Edge camping and fishing for gimps is not as threatening with characters having better recoveries.

Nah. it shifts the focus away from people anxiously fishing for edgegaurds the whole entire game and rather just makes it a possible option. There are people/characters out there that are miles more highly skilled than others at edgegaurding, no matter how good the recovery. It also makes the game much more dynamic and makes off stage fighting an easier possibility all around

 

[SAUS]

I don't play very much PM, but the recoveries that bother me are the tether recoveries and the ones where the user can attack out of them (snake and sonic both seem to be able to). I also get annoyed by the lack of landing lag on a bunch of them. A part of this is most likely due to me being pretty bad at PM.

There's also just generally more mid-floaty characters. Since melee has so many spacies players, games go much quicker (spacies are good at killing but also at dying). In PM, there's a whole lot of other fall-speed chatacters fighting each other, and non-fast-fallers tend to recover more easily.

Are there plans to make the tether recoveries more like the melee ones?

 

[kaizo13]

You know Mario could do all of that besides the walljump (at least as easily) in Melee right?

down-b gives more height and seems to keep more momentum, and the walljump is much, much easier to do.

i feel the walljump should require some sort of timing and skill. Maybe an extra frame or two from how it was in Melee.

 

[SAUS]

down-b gives more height and seems to keep more momentum, and the walljump is much, much easier to do.

i feel the walljump should require some sort of timing and skill. Maybe an extra frame or two from how it was in Melee.

I think making it harder to do is the wrong direction to take it. I'd make his other recovery options worse or something before making his recovery harder to do (so that he is more balanced because people accidentally kill themselves sometimes). Seems like better game design this way.

 

[KayB]

You know Mario could do all of that besides the walljump (at least as easily) in Melee right?

Also, stop picking walled stages against these two characters and it's not a problem.

Cape obviously wasn't very effective for Dr. Mario and Mario's on-stage game was mediocre at best, so his recovery slightly makes up for the fact that he's worse than Dr. Mario. Tornado also travels noticeably higher and is much easier to do. Also, in Melee Mario was required to hug the wall in order to do his wall-jump out of up-b. In PM, he doesn't have to do this. Mario can still wall jump off of a lot of stages (FD, YS, YI, FoD, DL, DC and probably more, which is a LOT of stages) and he can wall-jump off a ledge if even if someone's on it, making it harder to edgeguard. Plus, Mario's neutral + on-stage game was significantly buffed in PM. So yeah...

 

[kaizo13]

I think making it harder to do is the wrong direction to take it. I'd make his other recovery options worse or something before making his recovery harder to do (so that he is more balanced because people accidentally kill themselves sometimes). Seems like better game design this way.

i don't think it would be bad at all. The walljump is already an extra addition to his recovery tools.

you shouldn't design something based on the possibility that a player might miss inputs. It all comes down to practice and how well you know your character.

it's the same concept as wavedashing backwards to the ledge to edgehog and enemy. Sure you risk air-dodging offstage and falling to your death, but a player that has put in practice...and knows his character's wavedash timing will be successful everytime.

 

[Nazo]

if i get to tether and make it back and all you hit me with is a 13% aerial every time, it'd call that a pretty good trade for me.

http://www.gfycat.com/FocusedVelvetyBream


13% Indeed

 

[Deleted member]

You forgot about Zelda and m2 and a few others. All you have to do, is not pick a pillar stage, and actually grow a pair, and challenge Mario's recovery. I don't know why you have such a weakness for Mario. You supposedly play Marth, Mario and all the other mushroom kingdom characters have a bad MU with you. No complaining

it's hard to take you seriously when you blatantly have no idea what you're talking about. marth bodies the entire mushroom kingdom cast except mario, and mario bodies marth right back because this isn't melee. furthermore, edge guarding is only one specific narrow aspect of the matchup, a series of interactions that don't even address the other 40 out of mario's 41 matchups. this doesn't even address the risk of what happens if he makes it back and you're not in position since his edge guarding is so good too. literally every part of your post is bad advice or wrong.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

marth bodies the entire mushroom kingdom cast except mario, and mario bodies marth right back because this isn't melee.

Post 3 video examples of notable Marth players getting slammed by mario.
@Scatz @GeZ
Do ether of you guys have any videos to agree with the post in question?

 

[Saito]

http://www.gfycat.com/FocusedVelvetyBream


13% Indeed

Did I see 2 missed techs in that?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

The way to test if recoveries are to good is to use the jigglypuff test. Many of the cast do not consider her coming after them off stage threatening anymore in pm. Whereas in melee this was auto death on the majority of the characters excluding (pikachu, jigglypuff, and sometimes samus and peach. In addition to this, we have characters like mewtwo now. while i dont have a problem with the fighting aspects of this character, I do have a problem with the ledge camping potential of this character. Its like sheik on steroids. We may see a ledge grab limit in the future.