• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Anyone else here think Charizard should at least be next to Bowser on the tier list?

Darxai

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
34
This has already been addressed over a hundred times, but hear me out about this.

Regular Attacks
Default attack: a Good range 3 hit combo that does 12 damage, with some knockback
Up tilt: An 8 damaging up hit, that seems to have a wonky hitbox, but is still good either way.
Side tilt: 7 Damaging side tilt, but if the sweetspot is hit, it does 10
Down Tilt: 10 damaging, and knocks them far back.

Smash attacks:
Up smash: A double hit hit, with an extended reach. Does 16 damage, and is an easy kill move at high %s
Side smash: A basic, laggy windup, headbutt that does around 17 damage, and can be used as a kill move aswell.
Down smash: By far his fastest smash attack, and is good for knocking people away from you, not a great kill move, though. Does 16 damage, but causes them to drag across the stage instead of them going away.

His specials (SUPER ARMOR EVERYWHERE):
Up special: a move that can be used for killing if finished with the final hit. It does around 12-17 damage depending on whether you hit the entire thing, and where it is hit. Also gives super armor (WHICH IS INSANE FOR A RECOVERY)
Side special: I think we all know about Flare Blitz. Does 19 damage, super armor, used as a kill move, unfortunately damages himself for 9. Pretty simple move. Oh, and the range diminished between the target and yourself can mean a lot. Also used as a recovery move.
Down Special: This can interrupt combos, knockup people, and completely ignore knockback. Seems to do 14 damage, with little knockback.

Physical Traits:
Charizard is overall heavy, no doubt about it, which makes it good for him to be higher tier aswell with all these fast moves.

His movespeed is actually really good for his own size.

He has THREE jumps in total.

He has a sweetspot for a heavyweight (similar to dedede)

I don't know, what do you guys think?
 

MapleWooD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
441
Location
Montreal, QC
First off, welcome to Smashboards! :^)

Even though Charizard has 3 jumps, they kinda suck. He pretty much gets the same height with his 2 mid-air jumps as most other characters get with their single mid-air jump. Besides that, Bowser's ground moves generally come out faster than Charizard's and don't have as much lag. When it comes to the air, Charizard really doesn't have any good options outside of Nair and the occasional Dair. Bowser's may have end lag that's just as bad, but he's at least got good moves. When you put all of this together, Bowser kinda is the superior pick by a decent amount. I personally think Bowser is mid tier, we'll say 25 out of 51 for simplicity, and Charizard is around the upper 30s.
 
Last edited:

Darxai

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
34
Bowser is 27th on the tier list, and generally goes up daily. Charizard is the SECOND TO LAST on the tier list. I don't think heavyweights should have decent air game either way, because they're mostly stage based.

Also for the jumps, they can actually mean a lot for recovery because it allows him to sort of float a bit and let him use flare blits, or even his up b.

(Also thank you for the welcome :D)
 

MapleWooD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
441
Location
Montreal, QC
Bowser is 27th on the tier list, and generally goes up daily. Charizard is the SECOND TO LAST on the tier list. I don't think heavyweights should have decent air game either way, because they're mostly stage based.

Also for the jumps, they can actually mean a lot for recovery because it allows him to sort of float a bit and let him use flare blits, or even his up b.

(Also thank you for the welcome :D)
My bias towards Charizard is perhaps because he's a secondary of mine
 

Darxai

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
34
My bias towards Charizard is perhaps because he's a secondary of mine
I mostly bias because one of my best friends plan to main him, so i want Charizard to be what he really is. I would even compromise for him being in the 30s or low 20s. But seriously, he really needs to go up.
 

MapleWooD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
441
Location
Montreal, QC
I mostly bias because one of my best friends plan to main him, so i want Charizard to be what he really is. I would even compromise for him being in the 30s or low 20s. But seriously, he really needs to go up.
In the end, your own opinion matters more than the general one and it doesn't need to become accepted. Tier lists don't stop me from playing Ganondorf :D
 

Darxai

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
34
In the end, your own opinion matters more than the general one and it doesn't need to become accepted. Tier lists don't stop me from playing Ganondorf :D
That's entirely true, but tiers can influence many.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
While Bowser and Charizard have similar moves, they play very different. Bowser relies on opponents getting hit because they are afraid of his ridiculously strong command grab. Charizard however relies on his armor to out trade his opponents and kill the much earlier while having an unmatched recovery for his weight class.

I believe Bowser is the better character, but they shouldn't be directly compared like that even if they are similar. It's the toptier matchups that make the tierlist. If Bowser does better against Diddies and Sheiks and ZSS whatever he will be the better character. No one cares who does better against Robin or Puff.
 
Last edited:

Darxai

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
34
While Bowser and Charizard have similar moves, they play very different. Bowser relies on opponents getting hit because they are afraid of his ridiculously strong command grab. Charizard however relies on his armor to out trade his opponents and kill the much earlier while having an unmatched recovery for his weight class.

I believe Bowser is the better character, but they shouldn't be directly compared like that even if they are similar. It's the toptier matchups that make the tierlist. If Bowser does better against Diddies and Sheiks and ZSS whatever he will be the better character. No one cares who does better against Robin or Puff.
I honestly think that Bowser has too much end lag, and gets punished for it. Plus, it seems characters that are actually half decent get sent to the bottom of the tier list because they don't analyze the tier list enough to make sure that they go into the right position. It also seems that tournaments decide what the tiers are, which is another bad thing, because most people use top tier characters in tournaments (Not counting little mac)
 

RadianB

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
223
The Smash Boards Community tier list is garbage, I wouldn't pay much attention to it if I was you.
Also how did you come to the conclusion that Down Smash was his fastest Smash? Up Smash is more than twice as fast at 6 frames whilst Down Smash comes out at 16 frames.
Charizard is better than Bowser no doubt but they're played differently so it's hard to compare.
 

Zethoro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
472
NNID
Zethor
As someone who mains or has mained both of them, I can see why you'd say that.
Let's look at their defining characteristics as characters:
Bowser:
A fast Super-Heavyweight (16th, if I recall on the ground.)
One of the fastest crouch cancels and running shield- to jabs in the game. This is very important for his neutral game as his Jab and DTilt are among his safest moves.
Fire Breath for tacking damage and edgeguarding.
Great OoS
Devastating, but punishable Down-B
FAir is his quickest air move and the only aerial that auto-cancels out of a short hop.
Very heavy. (1st)
Great BAir for edgegaurding and kills. Not so useful out of SH
Very powerful command grab.
Average vertical recovery
Great horizontal recovery.
Average Air Speed.
A light heavy armor, helps him not get stuck in things like Fox's jab infinite and troll Megaman's lemons.
Charizard:
A fast Super-Heavyweight (8th on the ground)
Great Jab and DTilt
Fire Breath for tacking on damage and edgeguarding.
Great OoS
Devastating, but punishable Down-B. Super Armor makes it very good for trades.
FAir is his quickest air move and the only aerial that auto-cancels out of a short hop.
Very heavy (4th?)
Great BAir for edgeguarding and kills. Not so useful out of a SH.
Very powerful Throw.
Average vertical Recovery
Great horizontal recovery
ABYSMAL air speed. (41st)
Flare Blitz is great for tech chases and punishing. Use in moderation.

So as you can see, the two have many similar qualities. However, their playstyles are very, very different. Bowser plays defensively, putting on pressure with the range of his melee strikes and playing safe to punish mistakes HARD. Charizard thrives on punishing too, but Charizard is all about reckless play, as he can win hit trades easily.
This type of play, while very fun, is very dangerous and very easy to screw up. How they perform is largely dependent on style of play, and Bowser simply has the more reliable playstyle.
Should Charizard be where he is now? Definitely not. Should he be on par with Bowser? no.
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
1,765
Location
Charific Valley
3DS FC
1289-9519-4206
Well The Two are similar, but they both have their pros and cons

(In case you guys haven't noticed by now I love making lists)

Charizard:

Pros:

  • Heavy as ***
  • Can Juggle
  • Some strong frame traps
  • Zone Breaker-like qualities
  • Has a mid-ranged projectile
  • 3 Jumps - (Yeah they're small, but they can help make charizard's movement a bit less predictable)
  • Strong Run Speed
  • Super Armor
  • Kills Early
  • Strong Recovery
  • RAGE!!!
  • Hurtbox Deceptively small (Intangibility on Wings, Tail, and Head (Uair))
  • Strong Trades
Cons:
  • Heavy as ***
  • Can be Juggled
  • Vulnerable to frame traps
  • Struggles against some top teirs (Rosalina might be a decent MU for us though)
  • Somewhat vulnerable to projectiles
  • 3 Jumps are small
  • Abysmal Air Speed
  • Moves are sluggish
  • Recovery can be Predictable
  • Not the most evasive character
  • Lacks a quick sex kick (Frame 1-5 super armor helps with this)
  • Relies on Trades




Bowser:

Pros

  • Heavy as ***
  • Hits like a Truck
  • Strong Run Speed
  • Hella Super Armor
  • Moves are suprisingly quick
  • Nearly unmatched Kill Power
  • Good jumps
  • Recovery buffed from brawl
  • Has Mid-Ranged Projectile
  • Dash Attack sends enemy upwards
  • Command Grab
  • Drop kick is stronk
  • RAGE!!!
  • Hella Strong Trades
Cons

  • Heavy as ***
  • Can be shut down by zoning
  • Not many combos, juggles, or frame traps
  • Slow air speed when jumps are gone
  • Some moves are laggy
  • Vulnerable to combos
  • Recovery can be predictable
  • Not sure how bowser fares vs top tiers
  • Big Hurtbox

Note: I main both bowser and charizard, but I don't know as about bowser. You guys are welcome to correct me on stuff.

Overall I'd say Charizard has better frame traps, recovery, and fares slightly better against zoning.

Bowser Hits harder and faster, has fewer frame traps, and kills much easier (and we're comparing kill power to friggen charizard here)



Who's better?

Well, Charizard is a friggen Dragon, and Bowser is a firebreathing turtle with flaming hair and spikes.

In the end...

I have plushies of both :p
 
Last edited:

Darxai

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
34
The Smash Boards Community tier list is garbage, I wouldn't pay much attention to it if I was you.
Also how did you come to the conclusion that Down Smash was his fastest Smash? Up Smash is more than twice as fast at 6 frames whilst Down Smash comes out at 16 frames.
Charizard is better than Bowser no doubt but they're played differently so it's hard to compare.
I got the two smashes mixed up in terms of speed. Plus, usually people see the downsmash coming out faster.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
The difference is that Bowser can be played more aggressively, due to his safer tilts and command grab.

That said, Zard's punishes are stronger and has a stronger recovery. Bowser is more helpless against strong camp than Zard is. Zard also has stronger juggle tools and more ways to get out of juggles.

Honestly, I think Zard is slightly better. What matchups does Bowser win that Zard doesn't?
 
Last edited:

Davregis

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
182
Armored options and Flamethrower are really unique tools... Bowser suffers from Zangief complex.
 

Knee Smasher

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 29, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Mute City
NNID
UltimateChampion
3DS FC
2594-9924-0738
Honestly, I think Zard is slightly better. What matchups does Bowser win that Zard doesn't?
As a person who has played both Charizard and Bowser extensively, I believe that Sonic and Yoshi are the only two characters against whom Bowser may do better than Charizard, as Bowser's amazing Whirling Fortress out of shield is incredibly useful for dealing with the pressure they apply. But aside from that, I am sure that Charizard does better against everyone else. I find that every one of Charizard's bad matchups is also a bad matchup for Bowser, while Charizard does well or OK against some characters Bowser struggles against, such as Greninja and Duck Hunt Duo.


Let me break down why Charizard is generally a superior version of Bowser in 1 VS. 1 by listing the top 5 reasons most important reasons:

1. The outer half of Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch, unlike Charizard's Flamethrower, where the entire length of the flame flinches. This gives Charizard a superior neutral, zoning and edgeguarding game, which is important in almost every matchup, especially against projectile campers, since Charizard can much more easily approach them by jumping towards them and then utilizing a falling Flamethrower, unlike Bowser. It cannot be stressed enough that this is by far the most important reason why Charizard > Bowser in 1 VS. 1.

2. Against good players who play defensively, Bowser, surprisingly, has trouble landing a KO at a reasonable %, since almost all of his KO moves are very difficult to land with, and often involve punishing someone who approaches Bowser (for example, using Usmash to hit someone trying to fall towards Bowser and attack him from above, or rolling towards him, using Fair or Bair against an approaching opponent, or using Dair or Down B against someone chasing him in the air). However, if the opponent does not approach Bowser, but instead forces him to approach, such as with projectiles, then while he won't have much trouble racking up damage with jumping Fire Breath approaches or grabs, he will have a very hard time actually landing a move that KOs, unless he gets the opponent to very high %s. Charizard, on the other hand, does not suffer from this problem due to his myriad of easy-to-land killing tools, including a kill throw, Flare Blitz, and two amazing smash attacks.

3. Charizard's jab and standing/shieldgrab, two extremely fundamentally useful moves, are both faster and have longer range than Bowser's. Just experience the Charizard VS. Shulk matchup, then experience the Bowser VS. Shulk matchup, and you will see just what a world of a difference the difference in the two characters' jab and grab speed and range makes.

4. Bowser does not have a general roll-punishing tool that is anywhere near as good as Charizard's Dsmash. Bowser's own Dsmash has way too little range to punish rolls anywhere near as effectively, Fsmash requires a hard read (you have to predict the direction of the opponent's movement whereas Charizard's Dsmash can hit anyone close to Charizard in general), and Whirling Fortress does not kill anywhere close to as early as Charizard's Dsmash does.

5. Superior recovery.


Charizard has other advantages over Bowser such as having higher dash speed and a much faster Usmash, though they're not as important as the above five.

In Bowser's defense, by far his greatest advantages over Charizard are his incredibly amazing Whirling Fortress, which may be the single best out-of-shield option in the entire game, as well as his Forward B, which makes shielding a far less safe option for the opponent when Bowser is in the air. Of course, Bowser also has other advantages over Charizard such as not flinching from weaker attacks at low %, being heavier, and doing more damage with each attack in general, but overall, I do not think that any of such advantages, Whirling Fortress, or his command grab make up for all the advantages Iisted for Charizard above, especially the first point about the entire length of Charizard's Flamethrower flinching while the same cannot be said for Bowser's Fire Breath. That in actuality makes an INCREDIBLE difference for the two characters' neutral, zoning and edgeguarding games, and it is a large part of why Bowser struggles with zoning characters so much compared to Charizard. I honestly believe that Bowser could actually be better than Charizard in 1 VS. 1 if only the entire length of his Fire Breath flinched, like it did in Melee and Brawl, as that would VASTLY improve Bowser's neutral game.


With all of that said though, I do think that in 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack on (and it is always on in competitive 2 VS. 2 matches), Bowser is generally better, for four main reasons:

1. Charizard's greatest advantage over Bowser in 1 VS. 1, Flamethrower's superiority over Fire Breath, is nowhere near as important in 2 VS. 2, as Flamethrower and Fire Breath are inherently far, far less useful moves in 2 VS. 2 compared to 1 VS. 1, due to the way Charizard and Bowser both leave their backs wide open to being attacked while using these moves (a consequence that is irrelevant in 1 VS. 1 unless Charizard/Bowser misses with their Neutral B, while this can be disastrous in 2 VS. 2, since Charizard/Bowser can be punished by a running Usmash in the back by one of the opponents while Charizard/Bowser is busy burning that character's teammate).

2. The value of Bowser's greatest advantage over Charizard, his god-like Whirling Fortress especially out of shield, is significantly greater in 2 VS. 2 compared to 1 VS. 1, as an instant "get away from me" option is far more valuable when one has two opponents to deal with. Charizard, in comparison, does not have an equivalent option, as his best out-of-shield option, his shieldgrab, can only target one opponent (and God forbid him accidentally grabbing his teammate), and his Dsmash is far slower than Bowser's Whirling Fortress.

3. The fact that Bowser's KO moves are harder to land with than Charizard's is not as heavy a disadvantage for Bowser in 2 VS. 2 compared to 1 VS. 1, since all attacks are inherently easier to land in a 2 VS. 2, where everyone needs to focus on more characters. And since Bowser's moves generally deal more damage than Charizard's, it is evident that a 2 VS. 2 environment where hits are easier to land rewards him more.

4. One of Charizard's main KO options, Flare Blitz, is far riskier and less rewarding in 2 VS. 2 due to the possibility of accidentally hitting one of TWO characters besides the character one intends to KO with the move (and one of those two other characters is one's own teammate), combined with the fact that Flare Blitz stops as soon as it collides with one character. For example, say Charizard is on the left side of Final Destination, while the other three characters are on the right side - Charizard's teammate, an opponent who has high %, and an opponent who has low %. The character you'd want to hit with Flare Blitz is the opponent who has high %, but it is very difficult to make sure that that is the character you will end up hitting with Flare Blitz, since all three of the other characters can jump, move, and roll around, and God forbid Flare Blitz hits one's own teammate while he or she is at KO %. Also, Charizard dealing 9% to himself in exchange for KO'ing one of two opponents is less worth it than Charizard dealing 9% to himself in exchange for KO'ing one's only opponent. And this is not even mentioning the fact that even if Charizard does successfully land Flare Blitz on the correct target to KO him or her, the KO'd target's teammate can easily punish Charizard when he falls on the ground after the collision.



I am not in any way implying that Charizard and Bowser are not very, very different compared to each other, but as a person who has played both characters extensively, I can confirm that with everything in mind, Charizard generally outclasses Bowser in 1 VS. 1, although I do feel Bowser is better in 2 VS. 2.
 

Ryusuta

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Messages
3,959
Location
Washington
3DS FC
5000-3249-3643
The fact is... IT'S JUST TOO EARLY FOR ACCURATE TIER LISTS.

The game isn't even a year old. We don't know what changes to the list there will be. Charizard is kind of an oddball since he doesn't have a good neutral game at all, but he's got some decent wildcard moves.

The other huge factor is whether there will be a second tier list factoring in custom moves, which help Charizard arguably close to the most of all characters (I say arguably because there are several characters whose standing are immensely helped with customs).

Give it time. We simply do not know what's going to happen. I think in the no-customs realm Bowser simply has better buttons than Charizard for the most part, so I'm thinking Charizard will remain the "Doctor Mario" of the two.
 

MapleWooD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
441
Location
Montreal, QC
The fact is... IT'S JUST TOO EARLY FOR ACCURATE TIER LISTS.

The game isn't even a year old. We don't know what changes to the list there will be. Charizard is kind of an oddball since he doesn't have a good neutral game at all, but he's got some decent wildcard moves.

The other huge factor is whether there will be a second tier list factoring in custom moves, which help Charizard arguably close to the most of all characters (I say arguably because there are several characters whose standing are immensely helped with customs).

Give it time. We simply do not know what's going to happen. I think in the no-customs realm Bowser simply has better buttons than Charizard for the most part, so I'm thinking Charizard will remain the "Doctor Mario" of the two.
Brawl's first official tier list came out 7 months after its release. We're 5 months into Smash 4, saying it's too early is simply not the case.
 

Ryusuta

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Messages
3,959
Location
Washington
3DS FC
5000-3249-3643
Brawl's first official tier list came out 7 months after its release. We're 5 months into Smash 4, saying it's too early is simply not the case.
That's still two months more than we are now. In fact, in the first few months of the game's release, people had been begging for a tier list and the backroom refused because it was just too early. 7 months was practically a compromise.

To put that in perspective, there were people around 2-3 months before the first tier list came out that were arguing for Snake being mid tier. They he skyrocketed up past everyone else and he was expected to be the undisputed best character. This **** changes VERY QUICKLY early on.
 

MapleWooD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
441
Location
Montreal, QC
That's still two months more than we are now. In fact, in the first few months of the game's release, people had been begging for a tier list and the backroom refused because it was just too early. 7 months was practically a compromise.

To put that in perspective, there were people around 2-3 months before the first tier list came out that were arguing for Snake being mid tier. They he skyrocketed up past everyone else and he was expected to be the undisputed best character. This **** changes VERY QUICKLY early on.
Yeah, I know. I'm just saying the game's meta is not as young as many make it out to be.
 

A_Phoenix_Down

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
852
Either way, Charizard is underused. Therefore, he will not be voted high enough to really matter.
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
1,765
Location
Charific Valley
3DS FC
1289-9519-4206
As a person who has played both Charizard and Bowser extensively, I believe that Sonic and Yoshi are the only two characters against whom Bowser may do better than Charizard, as Bowser's amazing Whirling Fortress out of shield is incredibly useful for dealing with the pressure they apply. But aside from that, I am sure that Charizard does better against everyone else. I find that every one of Charizard's bad matchups is also a bad matchup for Bowser, while Charizard does well or OK against some characters Bowser struggles against, such as Greninja and Duck Hunt Duo.


Let me break down why Charizard is generally a superior version of Bowser in 1 VS. 1 by listing the top 5 reasons most important reasons:

1. The outer half of Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch, unlike Charizard's Flamethrower, where the entire length of the flame flinches. This gives Charizard a superior neutral, zoning and edgeguarding game, which is important in almost every matchup, especially against projectile campers, since Charizard can much more easily approach them by jumping towards them and then utilizing a falling Flamethrower, unlike Bowser. It cannot be stressed enough that this is by far the most important reason why Charizard > Bowser in 1 VS. 1.

2. Against good players who play defensively, Bowser, surprisingly, has trouble landing a KO at a reasonable %, since almost all of his KO moves are very difficult to land with, and often involve punishing someone who approaches Bowser (for example, using Usmash to hit someone trying to fall towards Bowser and attack him from above, or rolling towards him, using Fair or Bair against an approaching opponent, or using Dair or Down B against someone chasing him in the air). However, if the opponent does not approach Bowser, but instead forces him to approach, such as with projectiles, then while he won't have much trouble racking up damage with jumping Fire Breath approaches or grabs, he will have a very hard time actually landing a move that KOs, unless he gets the opponent to very high %s. Charizard, on the other hand, does not suffer from this problem due to his myriad of easy-to-land killing tools, including a kill throw, Flare Blitz, and two amazing smash attacks.

3. Charizard's jab and standing/shieldgrab, two extremely fundamentally useful moves, are both faster and have longer range than Bowser's. Just experience the Charizard VS. Shulk matchup, then experience the Bowser VS. Shulk matchup, and you will see just what a world of a difference the difference in the two characters' jab and grab speed and range makes.

4. Bowser does not have a general roll-punishing tool that is anywhere near as good as Charizard's Dsmash. Bowser's own Dsmash has way too little range to punish rolls anywhere near as effectively, Fsmash requires a hard read (you have to predict the direction of the opponent's movement whereas Charizard's Dsmash can hit anyone close to Charizard in general), and Whirling Fortress does not kill anywhere close to as early as Charizard's Dsmash does.

5. Superior recovery.


Charizard has other advantages over Bowser such as having higher dash speed and a much faster Usmash, though they're not as important as the above five.

In Bowser's defense, by far his greatest advantages over Charizard are his incredibly amazing Whirling Fortress, which may be the single best out-of-shield option in the entire game, as well as his Forward B, which makes shielding a far less safe option for the opponent when Bowser is in the air. Of course, Bowser also has other advantages over Charizard such as not flinching from weaker attacks at low %, being heavier, and doing more damage with each attack in general, but overall, I do not think that any of such advantages, Whirling Fortress, or his command grab make up for all the advantages Iisted for Charizard above, especially the first point about the entire length of Charizard's Flamethrower flinching while the same cannot be said for Bowser's Fire Breath. That in actuality makes an INCREDIBLE difference for the two characters' neutral, zoning and edgeguarding games, and it is a large part of why Bowser struggles with zoning characters so much compared to Charizard. I honestly believe that Bowser could actually be better than Charizard in 1 VS. 1 if only the entire length of his Fire Breath flinched, like it did in Melee and Brawl, as that would VASTLY improve Bowser's neutral game.


With all of that said though, I do think that in 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack on (and it is always on in competitive 2 VS. 2 matches), Bowser is generally better, for four main reasons:

1. Charizard's greatest advantage over Bowser in 1 VS. 1, Flamethrower's superiority over Fire Breath, is nowhere near as important in 2 VS. 2, as Flamethrower and Fire Breath are inherently far, far less useful moves in 2 VS. 2 compared to 1 VS. 1, due to the way Charizard and Bowser both leave their backs wide open to being attacked while using these moves (a consequence that is irrelevant in 1 VS. 1 unless Charizard/Bowser misses with their Neutral B, while this can be disastrous in 2 VS. 2, since Charizard/Bowser can be punished by a running Usmash in the back by one of the opponents while Charizard/Bowser is busy burning that character's teammate).

2. The value of Bowser's greatest advantage over Charizard, his god-like Whirling Fortress especially out of shield, is significantly greater in 2 VS. 2 compared to 1 VS. 1, as an instant "get away from me" option is far more valuable when one has two opponents to deal with. Charizard, in comparison, does not have an equivalent option, as his best out-of-shield option, his shieldgrab, can only target one opponent (and God forbid him accidentally grabbing his teammate), and his Dsmash is far slower than Bowser's Whirling Fortress.

3. The fact that Bowser's KO moves are harder to land with than Charizard's is not as heavy a disadvantage for Bowser in 2 VS. 2 compared to 1 VS. 1, since all attacks are inherently easier to land in a 2 VS. 2, where everyone needs to focus on more characters. And since Bowser's moves generally deal more damage than Charizard's, it is evident that a 2 VS. 2 environment where hits are easier to land rewards him more.

4. One of Charizard's main KO options, Flare Blitz, is far riskier and less rewarding in 2 VS. 2 due to the possibility of accidentally hitting one of TWO characters besides the character one intends to KO with the move (and one of those two other characters is one's own teammate), combined with the fact that Flare Blitz stops as soon as it collides with one character. For example, say Charizard is on the left side of Final Destination, while the other three characters are on the right side - Charizard's teammate, an opponent who has high %, and an opponent who has low %. The character you'd want to hit with Flare Blitz is the opponent who has high %, but it is very difficult to make sure that that is the character you will end up hitting with Flare Blitz, since all three of the other characters can jump, move, and roll around, and God forbid Flare Blitz hits one's own teammate while he or she is at KO %. Also, Charizard dealing 9% to himself in exchange for KO'ing one of two opponents is less worth it than Charizard dealing 9% to himself in exchange for KO'ing one's only opponent. And this is not even mentioning the fact that even if Charizard does successfully land Flare Blitz on the correct target to KO him or her, the KO'd target's teammate can easily punish Charizard when he falls on the ground after the collision.



I am not in any way implying that Charizard and Bowser are not very, very different compared to each other, but as a person who has played both characters extensively, I can confirm that with everything in mind, Charizard generally outclasses Bowser in 1 VS. 1, although I do feel Bowser is better in 2 VS. 2.
This post is gold :grin:

Btw Bowser does have an option to punish rolls~ :p

Flamethrower and dash attack can punish rolls away, while Whirrling fortress can punish spotdodges and rolls into or behind bowser

:006:

The fact is... IT'S JUST TOO EARLY FOR ACCURATE TIER LISTS.

The game isn't even a year old. We don't know what changes to the list there will be. Charizard is kind of an oddball since he doesn't have a good neutral game at all, but he's got some decent wildcard moves.

The other huge factor is whether there will be a second tier list factoring in custom moves, which help Charizard arguably close to the most of all characters (I say arguably because there are several characters whose standing are immensely helped with customs).

Give it time. We simply do not know what's going to happen. I think in the no-customs realm Bowser simply has better buttons than Charizard for the most part, so I'm thinking Charizard will remain the "Doctor Mario" of the two.
I haven't had a chance to try out Dragon Rush much. How much does that move help our neutral game?

:009:

It's not exactly fair to compare charizard to Dr. Mario.

It's true that bowser's individual moves are better than charizards, but you're comparing the moveset of a one-hitter, to a character with much better followups.

Charizard's Jab, Bthrow, and Nair are so effective at setting up frametraps, that it's not too difficult to get 50%+ on someone before they finally manage to get away from you.

For example, Nair sets up a frame trap into Jab, which can set up a frame trap into another Nair, which frame traps into utilt, which puts you in position to juggle your opponent.

:006:


tl;dr Bowser's moves are better on their own, but charizard has better juggles and strings.


Typos are dabess
 
Last edited:

JapanGuy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
46
The character doesn't make the player, the player makes the character. Tier lists don't matter, I never have listened to them personally. If in the future at tournaments a Charizard player steps forward and shows the world what Charizard can really do, then he may place higher than Bowser. After all, tier lists are always changing. But for now, I believe he deserves his spot and stays know as inferior to Bowser.
 
Last edited:

Smog Frog

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 30, 2014
Messages
1,180
dragon rush doesnt help our neutral as much as it helps our disadvantage..
 

Duck SMASH!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
418
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
C.Piglet
1. The outer half of Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch, unlike Charizard's Flamethrower, where the entire length of the flame flinches. This gives Charizard a superior neutral, zoning and edgeguarding game, which is important in almost every matchup, especially against projectile campers, since Charizard can much more easily approach them by jumping towards them and then utilizing a falling Flamethrower, unlike Bowser. It cannot be stressed enough that this is by far the most important reason why Charizard > Bowser in 1 VS. 1.

2. Against good players who play defensively, Bowser, surprisingly, has trouble landing a KO at a reasonable %, since almost all of his KO moves are very difficult to land with, and often involve punishing someone who approaches Bowser (for example, using Usmash to hit someone trying to fall towards Bowser and attack him from above, or rolling towards him, using Fair or Bair against an approaching opponent, or using Dair or Down B against someone chasing him in the air). However, if the opponent does not approach Bowser, but instead forces him to approach, such as with projectiles, then while he won't have much trouble racking up damage with jumping Fire Breath approaches or grabs, he will have a very hard time actually landing a move that KOs, unless he gets the opponent to very high %s. Charizard, on the other hand, does not suffer from this problem due to his myriad of easy-to-land killing tools, including a kill throw, Flare Blitz, and two amazing smash attacks.
I just wanted to ask about these two points.
On point #1: I know I don't have as much experience as you, but is there any particular matchup where Bowser is at a significant disadvantage over Charizard in the same MU because of his lack of flinch on the edge of his flame breath? I find it still spaces well enough to get a good 10-15% damage in on my opponent, and when aimed upwards it prevents them from easily short hopping over the flames to get an aerial in. In other words, isn't that good enough? How much of a difference does that extra distance make in any of the MUs?

On point #2: A flying slam will generally nail a kill at decently high %, especially when platforms are present on the stage. I know the lack of grab armor is a pain, but I find it great for punishing anyway, even when Bowser has to approach, simply because of its speed and because it beats shield.
Point is, is it really that difficult to kill when you're on the offensive?

Again I'm not aiming to refute, but to clarify. As a fellow Bowser main I don't really see the big deal here.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
Well, I do want to mention that Bowser fthrow and maybe bthrow kill, so Zard having dthrow isn't really a unique advantage. Still, Zard's smashes are much more useful (fsmash invincibility, usmash frame 6/7, dsmash covering more space and actually being a kill move).

Also, the fire flinch makes a huge difference because it's extra space Zard can control. It's the reason why it's so potent against recovering opponents. However, Bowser's ends more quickly so that is definitely a plus.
 
Last edited:

Knee Smasher

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 29, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Mute City
NNID
UltimateChampion
3DS FC
2594-9924-0738
I just wanted to ask about these two points.
On point #1: I know I don't have as much experience as you, but is there any particular matchup where Bowser is at a significant disadvantage over Charizard in the same MU because of his lack of flinch on the edge of his flame breath? I find it still spaces well enough to get a good 10-15% damage in on my opponent, and when aimed upwards it prevents them from easily short hopping over the flames to get an aerial in. In other words, isn't that good enough? How much of a difference does that extra distance make in any of the MUs?
The fact that the tip of Fire Breath does not flinch is itself a major disadvantage in every matchup. At high levels of play, Charizard relies on zoning people out with the tip of his Flamethrower, the reason being because by doing so, he prevents himself from being punished if the opponent chooses to react with a roll towards Charizard, as in that case the opponent would simply roll into the inner part of Flamethrower and take even more damage. On the other hand, if Charizard were to try to catch the opponent in the inner part of Flamethrower, he may deal more damage if he connects, but if the opponent rolls towards Charizard, they would end up behind him and in a position to punish him. However, since Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch at the tip, he has to either leave himself open to being punished by an opponent's roll towards Bowser, or not flinch the opponent at all, allowing them to just jump above the Fire Breath to punish Bowser.

So far, I have talked about the use of Charizard's/Bowser's Neutral B in the neutral game for zoning purposes. When it comes to edgeguarding, a similar concept applies. As an experienced Charizard player, I can tell you that there are two distinct types of Flamethrower edgeguarding at high levels of play:

Type 1: Standing at the very edge of the stage, facing outward, and then shooting a Flamethrower off the stage, usually at a low angle, in order to deal as much damage to a recovering opponent as possible before they reach the ledge.

Type 2: Standing one roll distance away from the edge of the stage, facing the edge, and then shooting a Flamethrower, in such a way that the fire covers the distance between where Charizard is standing and barely just reaching the edge of the stage, in order to trap an opponent who is too close to the ledge for Charizard to have enough time to utilize the Type 1 Flamethrower before the opponent grabs the ledge. The purpose of this type of Flamethrower edgeguard is to deal guaranteed damage to an opponent who has grabbed the ledge, regardless of whether they do a standard ledge get-up, a ledge get-up attack, a ledge jump, a ledge-hop, a ledge roll, or simply continue holding on to the ledge without doing anything. If Charizard were to attempt a Type 2 Flamethrower edgeguard while being as close to the edge as when doing a Type 1 Flamethrower edgeguard, the opponent can easily ledge roll behind him before punishing him.

The fact that Bowser's Fire Breath does not flinch at the tip already puts him at a disadvantage for Type 1 edgeguarding, but the main problem here is Fire Breath's disadvantage for Type 2 edgeguarding, since Bowser cannot cover all of the opponent's ledge options: He can either stand one roll distance away from the edge and let the opponent ledge jump through the tip of his flames, or stand closer to the edge and let the opponent roll behind him.

Also, I would like to note that for some reasons, if Bowser is not standing at the very edge of the stage, his Fire Breath, as it travels along the ground, cannot hit a person holding on to the ledge, unlike Charizard'ds Flamethrower.

But anyway, regarding specific matchups, I'd say Rosalina & Luma, Robin, Greninja, Captain Falcon and Fox are the characters against whom I have most greatly noticed the disdavantages of Fire Breath compared to Flamethrower, due to the ease with which they can easily jump through the tip of Fire Breath to punish Bowser.

On point #2: A flying slam will generally nail a kill at decently high %, especially when platforms are present on the stage. I know the lack of grab armor is a pain, but I find it great for punishing anyway, even when Bowser has to approach, simply because of its speed and because it beats shield.
Point is, is it really that difficult to kill when you're on the offensive?

Again I'm not aiming to refute, but to clarify. As a fellow Bowser main I don't really see the big deal here.
Flying Slam's short range requires Bowser being very close to the opponent for it to connect, which can be very difficult against people who play defensively, especially if they are utilizing projectiles. For its short range, this move also has a decent amount of ending lag, making it punishable.
 

Ryusuta

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Messages
3,959
Location
Washington
3DS FC
5000-3249-3643
Agreed. I honestly did not realize Fire Breath doesn't flinch at the tip.
 

dangeraaron10

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
3,222
Location
Ohio
The fact is... IT'S JUST TOO EARLY FOR ACCURATE TIER LISTS.

The game isn't even a year old. We don't know what changes to the list there will be. Charizard is kind of an oddball since he doesn't have a good neutral game at all, but he's got some decent wildcard moves.

The other huge factor is whether there will be a second tier list factoring in custom moves, which help Charizard arguably close to the most of all characters (I say arguably because there are several characters whose standing are immensely helped with customs).

Give it time. We simply do not know what's going to happen. I think in the no-customs realm Bowser simply has better buttons than Charizard for the most part, so I'm thinking Charizard will remain the "Doctor Mario" of the two.
Add another counter to your sig, that's the cutest thing ever.
 
Top Bottom