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Any advice against villager?

Atlas The Carry

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Sorry if there is a thread for this already couldn't find any. But anyways I'm about to start playing a lot again after my fallout break. Before the break at my locals recently I've been doing alright normally not dropping any matches in winners but I've had like 2 weeks where I hit that one guy that puts me on tilt and it's all down hill from there. Seems like fate has decided I must lose to Dabuz consistently because reasons and he has a really solid villager I don't know what to do against it. Any advice?
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I have no idea what aspects of villager are the problem, but if we're really talking about a Dabuz-level villager, then I don't need to waste time telling you how punishable moves like Dash attack are, he won't be using them.

When villager plays defensively behind a seed and firing sling shots, keep passive. Shield won't run out after a few 3% hits, and it's not a race to see how fast you can get to him. Try crawling instead of walking. The low profile puts you under short hop slingshots that would have hit you, and the crawl has comparable speed to walking. If he summons lloyd rocket, use Fire Breath. The stream passes through to hit villager and destroys the rocket as soon as it becomes active. Fire Breath reaches about as far as his Fair and Bair, and I know I've forced Villagers out from behind a seedling by staying back with spurts of Fire Breath. Never hold it down, or you'll risk being open for his aggresive options. If he's doing that thing where he regrabs the ledge and fires Fair from there, that's when you want to respond aggressively. By giving up ledge invulnerability for regrabs, he's open to a Dair meteor, Dtilt, or even Bowser Bomb. If the tree is up, Fire Breath still passes through it, but consider tilting through it to extend hitboxes for your moves. It's great for covering his landings between slingshots.

Optimal stage pick is probably Battlefield, and Castle Seige for counterpick stage. Phase 1 of Castle Siege is bad if we're on the elevated side, but good if we're not. Phase 2 has statues to block incoming projectiles. And both of these stages allow for very quick stocks when you land Flying Slam. Battlefield adds verticality to your attempts at zone breaking, and villager prefers to keep you at a horizontal position.

I never labbed it, but I know Villager's throws are weight based. I suspect there are still some true combos at very low percent out of Dthrow, like jab, but at mid and late percents, absolutely Double jump as soon as you can to avoid Fair. You can even counter that with a Dair since he's always at point blank range, just don't do that if you're offstage. When you're recovering with fortress, you can't afford to travel straight up into Fsmashes. Get to the ledge diagonally and hope it doesn't clip you during ledge vulnerability. The more horizontal to the ledge you are when ledge snapping, the higher chance of you not having any vulnerability frames at all. And finally, if he's ever forced to use Balloon Trip to recover, don't let him back for free.
 

Atlas The Carry

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Problem is it's not any random villager. Dabuz just spaced me out he doesn't go for any of the dumb set ups most villagers do and he'll get the low slingshots I can't really duck under. Also platforms were worthless against him if I used them it would just put me in a worse position and if he gets you off the ground your gonna take a lot of damage getting back down I think my biggest problem is there aren't villagers on his level atleast that I know if. Sure as hell doesn't help I only play bowser in tournaments.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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I'm a little confused. What kind of advice are you looking for? The standard Villager advice obviously isn't going to cut it. It's sounding more like you want advice on how to space and recover against Dabuz; to win against Dabuz. If that's the case, you're your own best friend here. The one with experience facing him, the one best qualified to find out his habits in this MU, is you.

If you need help analyzing each of the options he's pressuring you into, a video would be best. Barring that, if you can recall anything about his strategy in the neutral (set-ups, follow-ups, bait), get those down first. As it stands, all we can do is type at you before smashing head-first into the wall of "but Dabuz."
 
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Atlas The Carry

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Apr 2, 2015
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Well I mean dealing with the character not just Dabuz I only mean a good amount of the points he brought up didn't really work. The fire breath is something I'll try to use more if I play him again for the rockets. Does anyone have any idea how bowser can deal with turnips in the air? That's probably my biggest problem as I've learned it I end up in the air it's gonna hurt.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Well I mean dealing with the character not just Dabuz
Problem is it's not any random villager. Dabuz
Man, I don't know what you're expecting to hear. I decided the best thing to write would be all the tips for the Villager MU I knew that I feel average Bowser wouldn't. The structure of your posts don't insinuate you have any capabilities in Smash to actually meet Dabuz in bracket. A video replay could let us critique your style and options. But the best description of what you're having trouble with is...turnips? Not even going to specify Uair or Dair? If I had the game genie codes to beat professional players, I'd be out there using them, not waiting for somebody to ask for vague advice. You can't beat Dabuz unless you're a comparably good player. Period. But what really burns me up is

Sure as hell doesn't help I only play bowser in tournaments.
If you're blaming your own character for losing, don't play him. You didn't sign a contract. You can play whatever you like. If you think you're too good to be playing Bowser, either switch or get over yourself.
 

KingKong_ad

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Recently, I noticed that villager can be edgeguarded by bowser if done right. Nair and Upb rekt his recovery and you can bair him if he tries to grab the ledge by under. Im actually working on a video about bowser edgeguard game.
 

Big Sean

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KingKong_ad KingKong_ad I was just about to start writing a guide on Bowser's edge guard game. But a image based one instead of video. I wanted to do a bit more research about down smash but yeah I think I have some idea on how basically bowser should be able to 0-100 most characters on the edge with minimal reads. I'll just fill in the blanks after your video though.
 
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Atlas The Carry

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If you're blaming your own character for losing, don't play him. You didn't sign a contract. You can play whatever you like. If you think you're too good to be playing Bowser, either switch or get over yourself.
At woah man calm down at no point did I say I was so good and whatever the hell you just assumed I meant that I don't have a secondary to fall back on so I just have to take it.
 

MagiusNecros

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Man, I don't know what you're expecting to hear. I decided the best thing to write would be all the tips for the Villager MU I knew that I feel average Bowser wouldn't. The structure of your posts don't insinuate you have any capabilities in Smash to actually meet Dabuz in bracket. A video replay could let us critique your style and options. But the best description of what you're having trouble with is...turnips? Not even going to specify Uair or Dair? If I had the game genie codes to beat professional players, I'd be out there using them, not waiting for somebody to ask for vague advice. You can't beat Dabuz unless you're a comparably good player. Period. But what really burns me up is


If you're blaming your own character for losing, don't play him. You didn't sign a contract. You can play whatever you like. If you think you're too good to be playing Bowser, either switch or get over yourself.
He's asking for basic advice against high level Villagers. You don't need to ***** at him with a Git Gud pep talk. And talking him down because he says he only runs Bowser at tournies is indecent and simply saying deal with it or play someone else is just being rude.

Dabuz is a high level Villager player, so obviously he wants to know any tips of dealing with the matchup on THAT level. You either can give advice based on prior tested knowledge or you don't say anything at all.

The guy just wants some pointers. Take a chill pill.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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He's asking for basic advice against high level Villagers. You don't need to ***** at him with a Git Gud pep talk.
I assure you the only thing I recommended he "Git Gud" with is writing a thread. OP asks for advice - any advice. I provide some advice. OP says

not just Dabuz I only mean a good amount of the points he brought up didn't really work.
This was hours later and he came to the conclusion that my advice doesn't work? I was feeling a bit surprised because, and this is true of this thread days later, there's still no issues to discuss regarding Villager. You as well, MagiusNecros MagiusNecros contribute nothing to the discussion.
 

Duck SMASH!

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Someone resend Zapp his Bowser contract. Looks like the post office lost it... ;)

But yeah, against villager:
It looks like we have one of the few edgeguards that can reliably gimp villager with good timing!
I've never tried that before.
What spacing should you be looking for when you start the up B? Should Villager be far from you? Close? Right below? A fair distance below?
 

S_B

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It looks like we have one of the few edgeguards that can reliably gimp villager with good timing!
I've never tried that before.
What spacing should you be looking for when you start the up B? Should Villager be far from you? Close? Right below? A fair distance below?
It's been a while since I recorded it, but I believe you want to start it with the hopes that the villager is going to rise into you as you're fortressing upwards. Ideally, you want the tips of the balloons to touch the very bottom of fortress (which is awesome because of how horizontal of a hitbox it has for this purpose) and you want Bowser to be rising out of the way as the villager rises a LOT after the balloons are popped (as you can see in the video). You'll also need to catch the villager sufficiently below the ledge where they don't rise to grab the ledge after the pop.

Mind you, villagers have a pile of ways they can avoid this: they can save their jump and Uair you as you come down for them, they can do a few quick "flaps" upwards, then stop and sink for a moment to avoid you, or they can steer around you entirely.

The good news is that, even if you miss, you're likely to just land a few % or not hit the villager. There's not TOO much danger unless the villager winds up beside you somehow after you've hit them out of their up+B and they can slingshot you at point blank.

A lot of villagers like to recover low, however, usually after tossing out a lloyd rocket to pressure you away from them as they fall low and then rise to the edge. We actually have a small ace up our sleeve here: you can bomb to the ledge RIGHT through the rocket, catching the ledge and being immediately in position to try to pop the balloons.

And Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn and MagiusNecros MagiusNecros , c'mon, chill fellas. I'm sure no one meant any harm/offense. :)
 
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MagiusNecros

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I ain't even mad. One tip I'm gonna throw out despite not facing a competent villager is you'll probably have to powershield that sissy slingshot attack.(Which TG should truck through but whatevs)

Be wary of the tree. That's stage control and as a fatass we Bowser's want as much as we can.

Rocketoids can be void and destroyed with a simple SH Fair or any similar attack using our intangible parts.

I do wonder what would happen if we pivot grabbed while they ride the rocket though and immediately throw if we can grab the punk to begin with.

Also protip the Bowling Ball is a projectile and can be negated on the first hit that Aerial Fortress activates otherwise we take the hit.
 

MagiusNecros

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Well, you know what they said about Ridley... ;)
He plays a like a Kirby Boss reject? And made him feature exclusively on a bad stage and Trash Tour?

Sorry the too big nonsense has to go. Especially since Olimar is too small.
 

BarSoapSoup

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He plays a like a Kirby Boss reject? And made him feature exclusively on a bad stage and Trash Tour?

Sorry the too big nonsense has to go. Especially since Olimar is too small.
I also think the 'too big' argument is a little silly. Bowser is typically three times Mario's size, making him about 5 meters tall. It's not like he needs to be Giga Bowser's size. Link and Zelda are typically much shorter than Ganondorf. We wouldn't even see Kirby who is reportedly 8 inches tall. I think it would be interesting to see Ridley in Smash, although I am not sure if I'd play him. He would definitely be an aerial fighter, but weight, moveset and hurtboxes would be tricky for him.
 

MagiusNecros

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Put Tecmo Koei on the job and they would say no problem. Hell Custom moves would be no problem for them.
 

Cassius.

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All I can really point out is that even though you may feel harassed by slingshots/zoning, his damage output is pretty low, especially compared to Bowser's. I don't want to bring the mental aspect into it, but it is easier for newer/young Bowser players to feel defeated when facing a projectile or zoner character.

It's not the end of the world if you get hit by things once or five times, you know.

Every single hit Villager gets on us, we match and exceed by getting in once. Bowser has a good zone-breaking/burst move in Dash Attack. I would suggest staying at or moving to the range where you can punish Lloid spawns with an iDA. Every sequence Bowser has is well over 12%; unless Villager is getting you offstage or forcing you into a corner, I really would not be worried in the slightest.

A lot of weaker Villager players tend to not really pay attention to their own positioning when trying to keep the opponent out, and often back themselves into a corner while doing it. I would literally suggest to just walk and (power shield), crouch if need be to reduce knockback on stray slingshots and Lloids.

Offstage, bowling ball is an issue depending on which angle you're recovering at. If you time Up-B from below/diagonally at the edge, you can clank with the ball.

Stages with platforms are good because they force the Villager to mix up his zoning pattern while giving you another option at breaking in; however, those same platforms allow Villager to escape a lot easier underneath them, and platforms do limit approach options in a few cases for both parties. I would recommend battlefield, yes (wishing we were more mobile), but consider using stages with moving/changing platforms as well that run on a timer. Tilting stages or transitional stages work even better for what I explained earlier about forcing Villager to mix it up while giving you more options, although most of them are banned now. (LYLAT isn't, but be careful since all of the platforms are the same height. All it takes is a fullhop aerial to clip you).

Lastly, be aware of shield angling as well. I've actually been hit by F/BAir while on a platform simply because my shield was low or not angled enough; I got tapped in the foot. Be aware of what height the villager is choosing. Be aware of the times when you actually don't have to shield. If the Villager isn't showing any signs of approaching, maybe consider jabbing the shots instead of wasting or damaging your shield. Step your PS game up, as well--use the frame advantage well.

I can only give General MU tips. What you decide to do with that is up to you. As far as your own player-player MU in the case and for the player that you mentioned, I can't really give much advice aside from just staying solid and being consistent with your punishes, shielding, and positional decision making. Bowser has to work harder than Villager does, obviously, but consider what I said before about how much damage Bowser does in one exchange compared to Villager. Consider how Villager has to go about removing the stock, and consider how that coincides with how and where we need to be to do damage and/or close stocks out as well.
 
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BarSoapSoup

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Okay time to give some actual advice, as I have also fought against particularly frustrating Villagers.

A lot of what Cassius says is very true about Villager. A couple extra things to note...

1) Don't deal with Lloyd Rockets the same every time, or else you will be taken advantage of. Look at how Villager moves after firing the rocket and respond appropriately - at times, they would dash right in, and I could destroy the rockets and hit Villager away in a single F-Tilt. If they are intent on keeping their distance, then power shield it.

2) Villager has different tools depending on the stage of the seedling. The watering bucket has a windbox, so watch out for that if you're offstage. If the seedling is full grown, Villager can hit you the axe for good damage and knockback.

Try to fight as little as possible around the seedling. Nothing ruins your day more than a tree sending you skyward, where Bowser wants to be least. Don't be afraid to take a few hits. If you manage to get Villager up to a high percent, hit them with a Jab into D-Tilt - not only is it a good kill option, if it doesn't kill, you can try the new technique with Whirling Fortress that can really ruin Villager's recovery.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Also, no air dodging to get past Villager when trying to land. Not only is this a terrible idea to cover Bowser's landing in every MU, Villager's Uair and Dair have 25 active frames in all, way more than the intangibility frames an air dodge grants. Nair also has 20, and sling shots have 11-13. Between these five attacks, something will clip you in the air, if not as soon as Bowser lands. Always choose to double jump to avoid followups. Bombing to ledges and even Dairing on top of him is all around safer than attempting to air dodge. The primary danger of double jumping is that you can be knocked far offstage, too far to recover without a double jump. But Villager can't send anybody that far off of a single punish on stage. There's no Fair string into Bouncing Fish or ZSS Dsmash into Flip Kick attack. You're safe to be getting wild and aggressive when above him.

I like the idea of playing with Trees. I don't know precisely how much health it has, but two Dtilts seem to be enough to destroy it. And every time you attack it, hitboxes are extended that Villager could run into. A Dsmash, for instance, could be make Bowser a very dangerous target for entire seconds, but that's assuming Villager is about to get close for any move rather than stay away. It's just important to remember that villager hiding behind a tree is not in as safe a place as hiding behind a seedling.
 

BarSoapSoup

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even Dairing on top of him is all around safer
I wouldn't. When I started off, I would panic D-Air a lot, and my friend, who plays a lot of Villager, quickly took advantage of it. Shell guard on D-Air can't get past Villager's U-Smash, and at best it trades off with Villager's U-Tilt. I would just bomb to ledges or try to fall away and double jump if the Villager attempts anything.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I wouldn't. When I started off, I would panic D-Air a lot, and my friend, who plays a lot of Villager, quickly took advantage of it. Shell guard on D-Air can't get past Villager's U-Smash, and at best it trades off with Villager's U-Tilt. I would just bomb to ledges or try to fall away and double jump if the Villager attempts anything.
Dair does not have shell guard, it has an amazing disjoint, there's a difference. I was speaking comparatively about how bad airdodging next to him was.
 

BarSoapSoup

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Dair does not have shell guard, it has an amazing disjoint, there's a difference. I was speaking comparatively about how bad airdodging next to him was.
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. I'm not extremely savvy to a lot of Smash terminology so I use what I think is closest. I do agree that air-dodging Villager is a terrible choice. If only Tough Guy could move past that stupid slingshot...
 
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